Wait just a dawl-gone minute!

If you enlist in the military you might have to go to war?

That's the craziest thing I'd ever heard.

If you enlist in the military you might have to go to war?

Thanks for the heads-up about Specialist Alison K. It's a personal, courageous story -- one that actually transcends "ideological bents" of any stripe; I'm sure you agree.

One more thing -- Remember that police officers and firefighters are allowed to quit their jobs for any reason without fearing jailtime or public scorn.

JT:

It shouldn't take long for the tolls to jump on the "20,000" figure.

Not that it is any way close to the truth, it's because it fits their agenda just as it fits Joel Schwartzberg's to propagate that lie.

Where did that 20,000 deserters figure come from?

"Remember that police officers and firefighters are allowed to quit their jobs for any reason without fearing jailtime or public scorn."

Yep. Such is the glory of being a civil servant, and not a member of the Armed Forces.

Joel:

One more thing -- Remember that police officers and firefighters are allowed to quit their jobs for any reason without fearing jailtime or public scorn.

What a fallacious comparison that is.

Forgive me for asking "Mr. journalist," but do members of a police force or firefighters sign a contract that sets their term of service and how long that service is? AND, not so incidentally, a provision that specifically provides the military/Gov. the option if needed to extend that length of that service

If that comparison is an example of your critical thinking you need to sue your journalism school of choice for a return of all monies paid to them, they FAILED.

In addition you need to reimburse any and all fed/state and city taxes paid to educate you going back to kindergarden.

FormerHostage:

Where did that 20,000 deserters figure come from?

Off the top of my head I can't give you a specific place but the figure has been around for a while on most if not all the anti-war/anti-military sites.

And it's bogus as hell. Most times I've seen numbers close to it the propagandist conflates being AWOL/UA with desertion and they are VERY separate things.

It has always amazed me how much the value of a person's word has degraded over the past few decades, and instances such as this only serve to damage that concept even more.

These military members raised their right hands, signed on the dotted line, and swore to not only uphold and protect, but also obey the orders of those people appointed over them. Deserters violate both concepts, violate a contract, and, worst of all, violate their own word.

And whether society likes it or not these days, without his word, a man is nothing.

I have more than a few other choice words and descriptions I would use to describe deserters, especially during this time of war, but I think I will leave it at that... No need to raise my blood pressure too much.

Why let accuracy, ethics and truth get in the way of yellow-stripe journalism AKA NOW?

And whether society likes it or not these days, without his word, a man is nothing.

Yep, I couldn't agree more.

You see some of the enablers and those that diminish the the power/importance of a person's "word" or contracts in congress as some scramble to bailout out those that were taken in by shady home loans.

To hell with contracts and promises, it's more important for them to pander for votes and spend million/billions propping up the shysters and the too stupid to read crowd.

20,000 That sounds very high. Almost 400 a month. But hey thats a nice round number the left can remember.

"20,000 ... . But hey thats a nice round number the left can remember."

It's the exact same number that'll be on their grant checks, when they arrive.

Forgive the satire but...

Joel Schwartzberg, sometimes known as"Mr. journalist," if by some magic/stroke of bad luck on your part you awoke and were bound by a contract obligating you to 4 years service as a journalist for Fox News would you desert?

If you enlisted during Viet Nam...we served ONE combat tour of 12 MONTHS...
now of course multiple tours of 15 months...
Hmmmm the patriotic rush to serve our nation is failing.....
They are losing brothers and sisters to IED's because in the 21 century we lack the capability as a nation to produce properly armored vehicles....
They know our Nation's "Support the troops" does not apply when they come home healthy or injured..

They know that after years of effort and sacrifice...basics for the Iraqi people such as clean drinking water..electricity...and even more ironically gasoline .. are scarce....

They recognize their greatest efforts to support a clearly dysfunctional Iraqi pretend Govt are futile...

It is clear to me...when I talk to Iraq vets with shattered bodies and minds when I go to the Denver V.A. ...this group of Vets are perhaps the most courageous and honorable vets our nation has ever had....

Bush/Cheney/Rummy will be in the same fires of Hell as Bin Laden and Saddam

Sometimes I wonder if Nogo (I'm sorry... "nogo..." ) has his standard talking points written up, and then cuts and pastes them into any vaguely relevant thread, then tweaks them just a little. Because it's always the same.

J.

Point of clarification...we were only forced to serve on combat tour...anyone could...and some did volunteer for multiple tours...but I found that those who did more than one tour did so for personal reasons other than patriotism.

you know... i think it would be a worthwhile investment... if nogo were to use his veteran's status... access the gi bill of rights... and take a course in basic english... one that covers composition... with a heavy emphasis on punctuation and capitalization and complete sentences... along with a healthy lesson in ellipsis abuse... but that would probably make his thoughts comprehensible... and expose his inanity for all to see... so maybe not...

j...

Yep sometime I cut and paste...but this is not one of those times...
I challenge ANY of you to go to your local V.A. Hospital..go to the general waiting area...

My views are not just the result of my military service almost 40 years ago...
But as injuries from that service have exposed me to Vets from all conflicts since then....

...damn right I get passionate about it...

Please Jay you are certainly above the esoteric claptrap of that post...

Gee, nogo, I thought passion was expressed in exclamation points, while ellipses are most often used to represent trailing off... the end of incomplete sentences and thoughts... symbolizing a lack of energy and enthusiasm from the speaker... zzzzz...

Sorry, I done bored myself to sleep there. Dunno how you avoid doing that to yourself more often.

J.

"If you enlisted during Viet Nam...we served ONE combat tour of 12 MONTHS...
now of course multiple tours of 15 months..."

Interesting that a lot of the Vietnam vets were actually drafted.

Also, prior to Vietnam, enlisted, or drafted, you stayed for the whole show.

I'll agree that these men and women are the best soldiers we've ever had - no argument, on any level.

The fact that this is taking time does not mean that their sacrifices have been wasted, though, and I think it highly uncool of you to declare as such.

I think you hear less complaint from the active army than from reserves. Lots of people who enlist don't realize their committment is actually longer than active service. I read stories about guys who get reactivated after doing a short stint prior to 2001. Now they're in a different stage of life - they have families, are in the middle of school, or have other obligations that make serving more of a burden.

I do have some sympathy for those people - before 2001 it was hard to imagine circumstances that would call for the reactivation of reserves, so I think lots of people signed without giving it due consideration. But sign they did, and now it's time to honor that signature. The time to think about potential downsides is before you sign.

The CO thing is a load of crap. How you get COs in a volunteer military is beyond me, unless it's purely a legal dodge to get out of combat. At least when there was a draft it made sense - but now? No.

To get back on topic, here's a medic (the UTube Clip) who started having CO thoughts after a man is killed after pulling too close to a convoy. Good thing he got out - he was a danger to his buddies. So this means what - someone joined up and found out he didn't have the guts to be a soldier. He took the legal way out and got out. Fine. Good riddance. Sad that he wasted so much of the military's time and money training him. So he went and volunteered for the Public Health Service, or Peace Corps, or what, being such a dedicated person who wanted to serve the country who had been so good to him and his family? Somehow I got the impression he's back in the commercial market and isn't feeling like he owes anybody anything. What a patriot!

How about the next case not on the clip. Another paragon of virtue I suppose?

NOW propaganda, courtesy of the Goebbels School of Broadcast Journalism.

" - before 2001 it was hard to imagine circumstances that would call for the reactivation of reserves"

Unless you take into consideration that whole Gulf War I bi'ness ;)

nogo [common sense]

It is clear to me...when I talk to Iraq vets with shattered bodies and minds when I go to the Denver V.A. ...this group of Vets are perhaps the most courageous and honorable vets our nation has ever had....

Well golly gee wiz! Wouldn't asking those "with shattered bodies and minds" anything related to the Iraq war result in answers showing disillusionment or more?

How SHOCKIN'!

Kinda like asking a nitwit in the lobby coffee shop of media matters or movon whether they think Bush is the greatest Pres. ever.

That aside the picture you paint is BS, all wounded vets aren't as you claim they are many are very supportive of the Iraqi effort.

Remember that police officers and firefighters are allowed to quit their jobs for any reason without fearing jailtime or public scorn.

Hmm. My company has paid (not all) for me to return to school and further my education. In return, I owe them 5 years of service. If I ever leave, I have to pay for every class taken from five years back from the day I walk out.
The military isn't alone in expecting that if you take their dollar, you stick around for a while. Esp when sticking around was part and parcel of the deal going in.

Nogo,

I respect, admire, and appreciate your service to our country. Thank you. Your chronic wounds are a tragedy. Every wounded warrior coming home from Iraq is a tragedy. Every warrior not coming home alive from Iraq is a horrible tragedy. I don't even know if I could do justice with words to how those realities of war make me feel.

During World War II somewhere around 80 million people were killed. Add to that the wounded and crippled. At a time when the killing technology was infantile compared to what we have today and at a time when the world population was a fraction of what it is today.

If this blemish on the human race is not dealt with now, if it's allowed to fester, grow, and gain power (yes it IS a war for oil - we'd rather a stable, democratic Iraq have the oil than Al Qaeda & Ahmadinejad) and we just appease them- let them win the early battles, the body count this time could be in the billions. We humans actually have the ability to wipe most life off the Earth.

(I think I read once that cockroaches would probably survive -- and I think James Carville, too.)

War is one of the most horrible atrocities ever invented by humans. Still, sometimes it's the best of all available options. If you look at the whole, big picture with an intelligent, historical perspective, you can see that we not only can, we MUST prevail. A stable, democratic Iraq will not be the end of Islamofascism, but it will be a BIG step in the right direction and it will make all the rest of the steps substantially easier.

The heroes who have volunteered to fight in Iraq and elsewhere, many re-enlisting after their commitment is up even, know this. While it is critically important to be constantly mindful of the tragedy and sacrifice of this war the things you post here mostly tend to dishonor them, at least in my opinion. This war won't just "end". It will be won by one side and lost by the other side. Using the tragedy of war as propaganda to demoralize the good guys is not a morally superior position from which to argue.

But Al Qaeda appreciates it.

Whose "side are we on P Bunyan?

The side of the Sunni Baathists who we have armed to fight Al Queda? Or the Wahabbi/Salafi Sunnis whom we just sold 20 Billion dollars worth of arms? The same Al-Saud dynasty who fund religious madrasses and are taught to fight the infidel? That side?

Or are you on the side of the Shia Islam Al Maliki and his majority in Iraq who carry the same belief as the Shia Muslims in Iran? The same Shia Muslims who are part of the insurgency whose tribal militias are cleansing the streets of Baghdad of Sunnis while workign under the cover of AMerican support.

Which side are you on? Who will you declare the winner? Do you even have a clue?

Civil, it might surprise you to learn that someone can be on America's side.

It will probably also come as a shock to you that not all choices are black and white, either-or. Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two or more evils.

For all the lefty bloviating about conservatives seeing everything in black and white, the left's view of foreign policy sure seems to be monochromatic.

hmmm.. I see Joel Schwartzberg the subject of this piece did nothing more than drop by and offer a sorry-assed analogy to explain himself.

Then fled.

The guys nothing more than a troll.

The guys nothing more than a troll.

Not to be crude, but "Duh."

You're not, that's just a reaffirmation.