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Colorado teens make the pledge politically correct

Michael Newdow must be very, very proud of these kids.

If you don't remember, he was the atheist who wanted the words "under God" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance because he was (sniff, sniff) offended! He claimed it was not ok for his daughter to have to recite those two little words every day, even though the daughter in question and her mother had no problem with it whatsoever. That didn't get in the way of his shameless exploitation of her, though, because the concerned parent attack comes off much better than the intolerant liberal moonbat attack does. He also wants to have "In God We Trust" removed from all U.S. money, apparently unconcerned about the hassle (to put it mildly) it will cause for the Treasury.

If a moonbat is offended, then we all gotta pay.

With that in mind, I present to you the Boulder High School Student Worker Club:

Members of the activist club "Student Worker" are calling on students to leave class every Thursday at 8:30 a.m. -- when the pledge is recited over the intercom -- and rally in the courtyard to say a revised version of the pledge.

Club President Emma Martens, who's leading the protest, wrote this new version: "I pledge allegiance to the flag and my constitutional rights with which it comes. And to the diversity, in which our nation stands, one nation, part of one planet, with liberty, freedom, choice and justice for all."

Martens said her group is concerned that the traditional pledge read daily at the start of second period classes takes away from school time. She also said the phrase, "one nation, under God," violates the separation of church and state.

"Boulder High has a highly diverse population, not all of whom believe in God, or One God," she wrote in an e-mail to the Camera.

"We didn't think it was fair for the whole school to have to listen to it," Martens said between classes today. "It's disrespectful and in complete violation of the separation of church and state. It's almost religious oppression."

She said the group has written a letter to Principal Bud Jenkins asking that Boulder High hold the recitation -- which the school must make available by state law -- in the auditorium during both of the school's two lunch breaks.

"That's so students can go if they want, but not everyone is required to listen to it," Martens said. "I don't want them to break any laws by not saying it. We just want them to do it so we don't have to hear it every day."


One of the first things I thought when I read this was her complaint about how reciting the Pledge of Allegiance "takes away from school time". Having hordes of students troop out to the courtyard at 8:30 to say her moonbat version, though, is apparently ok.

She also took the liberty of remaking our flag, because I guess having stars to represent each of the states in the union is not satisfactory, either. No, a peace sign is much better:

Now, lets just examine this new liberal-friendly Pledge:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag and my constitutional rights with which it comes. And to the diversity, in which our nation stands, one nation, part of one planet, with liberty, freedom, choice and justice for all."

This girl covered all of the requisite liberal talking points, didn't she? Diversity? Globalism and environmentalism? "Choice" (meaning abortion, I'm sure)? Perversion of constitutional rights? She's got every base covered!

What's almost funny, if it wasn't so sad, is how she equates the phrase "Under God" to religious oppression. If she wants to know what real religious oppression looks like, she should do some research. She could start here, or here, or even here, where she can learn about real oppression by country. People being enslaved and murdered because of their religion is real oppression. A whiny high school student crying over a centuries old phrase to get attention so that she can feel important is not opppression.

And there's of course the obligatory "separation of church and state" argument, a phrase which actually appears nowhere in the Constitution. If she wants to leave out "under God", then she's free to go right on ahead, but that's never enough for liberals. They ensure that if one person is offended, we all suffer the consequences. Besides, why should facts and respect for the beliefs of others matter? It doesn't stop any other liberal moonbat, and it sure as hell won't stop her.

Hat Tips: Moonbattery, Michelle Malkin


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Comments (72)

She looks kinda hot in that... (Below threshold)
Bill Clinton:

She looks kinda hot in that wrap. I'd hit it.

I live in Denver, and the m... (Below threshold)
vaildog:

I live in Denver, and the media coverage around here has lots of pictures of the students involved. For the record, the chicks involved in leading this effort are smokin' hot.

Of course they're hot. The ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Of course they're hot. The best part of going to college is the ridiculously good-looking left wing kids who know how to find great pot, aren't sexually repressed, and throw great parties.

I'd hit it too.... (Below threshold)
ExSubNuke:

I'd hit it too.

She looks kinda ho... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:
She looks kinda hot in that wrap. I'd hit it.

Me too. Where's my bat?

I can't get over there's a ... (Below threshold)

I can't get over there's a High School Student Worker Club. What's their motto: "Death to the fascist insect that preys on the life of the people"?

Heck, I might even tie her ... (Below threshold)
ExSubNuke:

Heck, I might even tie her up in that flag first, and make her say

"Look, he's repressing me!!! See the violence inherent in the system!!!"

While I hit it.

Ah, I'm goin' to hell for t... (Below threshold)
ExSubNuke:

Ah, I'm goin' to hell for thinkin' those thoughts, aren't I?

I don't have a problem with... (Below threshold)
Jardinero1:

I don't have a problem with "under God" but I do have a problem with forcing kids to make pledges to flags. I would prefer to ditch the entire pledge.

Student Workers Club. Soun... (Below threshold)
SShiell:

Student Workers Club. Sounds like Young Communist League membership will be offered any day now.

Growing up to be a nice lit... (Below threshold)
civil disobedience:

Growing up to be a nice little carpet eater. Probably has a nice tat on her back to express her independence and subliminal hatred with male society.

Against the Pledge?!?!... (Below threshold)
ExSubNuke:

Against the Pledge?!?!

Do you know what the pledge is? You're pledging allegiance to your country. Read the darned thing line by line. It's a statment that you are indeed an integral part of the United States of America, as symbolized by the flag the pledge is being made to.

Don't want to pledge allegiance? Fine. Get out and become a citizen of a different country. One where the people are divided, with no liberty or justice for anyone (or at least not all).

Hmmmmmmm. What countries come to mind with those characteristics? Rwanda. Iran. China. North Korea. I'm sure others can think of more.

Well, ESN, you shouldn't wo... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Well, ESN, you shouldn't worry too much as there's no such place as "hell", but you might want to pause for a moment and consider whether or not you feel comfortable treading in
John Derbyshire
's waters. :)

And SotG, joking about beating a female high school student with a bat? You so funny! I bet you could beat up like twenty girls with whom you disagree! I admire you.

I'd hit it too. Right in t... (Below threshold)

I'd hit it too. Right in the back of the head with an open hand. Hard.

Oh, go buy a sense of humor... (Below threshold)
ExSubNuke:

Oh, go buy a sense of humor hyperbolist.

Besides, she'd be legal in less than a year. ;p

"I pledge allegian... (Below threshold)
marc:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag and my constitutional rights with which it comes. And to the diversity, in which our nation stands, one nation, part of one planet, with liberty, freedom, choice and justice for all."
MeThinks she missed one section in her new pledge, it should read; "part of one planet, part an alternative universe."

But maybe I'm wrong.

ExSuNuc:

Ah, I'm goin' to hell for thinkin' those thoughts, aren't I?

This ex-Skimmer (OSC SW) thinks you spent more than enough time "in hell" already and will be spared any further meetings with beelzebub.

And for the record, I'd not only hit it, but smack that ass a few times as well. I mean why not, with that flag she is "advertising" a peace right?

Well, ESN, you shouldn't wo... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Well, ESN, you shouldn't worry too much as there's no such place as "hell", but you might want to pause for a moment and consider whether or not you feel comfortable treading in
John Derbyshire
's waters. :)

And SotG, joking about beating a female high school student with a bat? You so funny! I bet you could beat up like twenty girls with whom you disagree! I admire you.

I've been saying for years:... (Below threshold)
Diane:

I've been saying for years: if we want to improve our public schools, take the "compulsory" out of education. Public chools in neighborhoods can become what that neighborhood wants it to be. Then, if a student/parent doesn't like the rules, the student doesn't have to go there. They can move, start their own school, or not go at all.

I'm tired of school administrators dancing around to satisfy a very small handful of people.

wtf... sorry, my browser is... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

wtf... sorry, my browser is loopy. If somebody wants to delete that last one... and this one.....

Some of you may not be awar... (Below threshold)
Rance:

Some of you may not be aware, but there are some conservative religious groups that don't like the pledge because they feel pledging to the flag is a form of idolatry. Some feel that you shouldn't pledge your allegiance to anything but God.

I am aware of some churches that do not allow their children to join the Boy Scouts because they say the oath puts "God and my country" on the same level of importance, which they feel is wrong.

Some of you may no... (Below threshold)
marc:
Some of you may not be aware, but there are some conservative religious groups that don't like the pledge because they feel pledging to the flag is a form of idolatry. Some feel that you shouldn't pledge your allegiance to anything but God.
And so?

They are just as loopy as the rest.

Hope you weren't looking for a gotcha moment as someone tries to defend them.

You're pledging allegiance ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

You're pledging allegiance to a symbol. The pledge itself, I might add, was written as part of a marketing campaign for Youth's Companion, a magazine in the late 19th century that was, you guessed it, selling flags. Despite being written for a Christian magazine, the original pledge contained no reference to God. It also referred to it as "my flag," since you were supposed to say it to the flag you bought from the magazine. Really, you're pledging allegiance to a commodity, and one probably made in China. Might as well pledge allegiance to a can of Pepsi.

It was the Knights of Columbus who introduced "under God" and campaigned to have it officially amended. Since it was the '50s, and we were anxious to distinguish ourselves from them dirty godless commies, they succeeded, 1st amendment be damned.

In any case, pledging allegiance to a flag is something for oppressive (and usually militaristic) nationalistic societies, not the United States of America. I have no problem professing my commitment to uphold the Constitution, but pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is for the simple-minded. That's why they have kids do it.

I was just teasing, ESN. De... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

I was just teasing, ESN. Derbyshire likes 'em as young as 12. In eastern Europe, men typically date a lot younger than themselves, and who knows about all of those underdeveloped or illiberal societies? My friend in Jordan's father has three brides, ranging from about 20 to 55 years of age. He says it's hell living with a step-mom five years younger than himself who is way hotter than anybody he's ever had the pleasure of knockin' boots with. :)

marc,So you are wr... (Below threshold)
Rance:

marc,

So you are writing off large chunks of the Lutheran church as "loopy"?

mantisbut pledg... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis

but pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is for the simple-minded. That's why they have kids do it.
Couldn't you be a bit MORE offensive to the millions of American school kids? Come on asshat, let it fly, I know you have it in you.

Of course "simple-minded" school kids fits right into the agenda of many doesn't it? That's why they, lemming-like, join the Military. Right mantis?

Just because certain religi... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Just because certain religious sects are mainstream in the United States, doesn't mean they aren't loopy, Rance.

Oh, btw Cassie,... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Oh, btw Cassie,

And there's of course the obligatory "separation of church and state" argument, a phrase which actually appears nowhere in the Constitution.

Do you believe the absence of that exact phrase means the separation of church and state doesn't exist in this country? The phrases "checks and balances" and "separation of powers" aren't in there either. Hmmm...

rance:So you a... (Below threshold)
marc:

rance:

So you are writing off large chunks of the Lutheran church as "loopy"?

How about all the "believers" are loopy? Happy now?

Couldn't you be a bit MO... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Couldn't you be a bit MORE offensive to the millions of American school kids? Come on asshat, let it fly, I know you have it in you.

You're right, grammar school kids (which is what I meant by "kids." I never had to recite the pledge past 6th grade) are just as wise and experienced as adults. Sorry for saying otherwise.

Of course "simple-minded" school kids fits right into the agenda of many doesn't it? That's why they, lemming-like, join the Military. Right mantis?

I'm pretty sure you need to be an adult to serve. Last I checked, anyway.

Oh, come on, marc. D... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Oh, come on, marc. Do you disagree that children are of simpler minds than adults? They're typically more curious, yes, and possess a far greater capacity for uptake of information, but they are simpler. And anyway it's not necessarily a pejorative term:

simpleminded: free of deceit or guile; artless or unsophisticated. [Random House Unabridged, 2006]

Exactly.... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Exactly.

You're right, gram... (Below threshold)
marc:
You're right, grammar school kids (which is what I meant by "kids." I never had to recite the pledge past 6th grade) are just as wise and experienced as adults. Sorry for saying otherwise.
So... your experience may not be an indication the reality of the whole. Many schools, including the system I went thru, recited the Pledge in every grade thru 12th.

I'm pretty sure you need to be an adult to serve. Last I checked, anyway.

Correct, and 18 is considered adult and they sign on the dotted line without parental consent. And many do so while 18 and still in HS. And reciting the Pledge, BTW

But that's the point you fail to see. Many claim otherwise, they claim those "poor little" eighteen year olds are somehow coerced into joining because they also believe these "kids" are of "simple minds."

But that's the point you... (Below threshold)
mantis:

But that's the point you fail to see. Many claim otherwise, they claim those "poor little" eighteen year olds are somehow coerced into joining because they also believe these "kids" are of "simple minds."

It's not a point I fail to see, but rather an argument that I reject. I don't think of those that join the military as kids, or simple-minded (well, some of them surely are, but that's true of any group). That you have to take other people's arguments and erroneously apply them to me shows you don't really want to bother doing any thinking, but would rather just lump everyone you dislike into one category with universal opinions and perspective, and argue against the flimsiest straw man you can construct.

Too bad for you the world, and the people in it, are a little more complicated than that. Nice try.

Why are we allowing this th... (Below threshold)
vaildog:

Why are we allowing this thread to get off topic from discussing how hot these chicks are? Those girls have amazing asses.

More of this PC popycock i ... (Below threshold)
Spurwing Plover:

More of this PC popycock i mean this is just part of this NEW WORLD ORDER and the sinister plans of the iluninaty i mean its a wonder they dont have ONE WORLD UNDER GAIA as the eco freaks would want

mantis:That you... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis:

That you have to take other people's arguments and erroneously apply them to me shows you don't really want to bother doing any thinking,
Who's not doing the thinking here?

Lets see, you opine in your experience the Pledge was only recited up to the sixth grade (you know, eleven year olds) as an excuse to use the phrase simple minded.

Yet this post is about high schoolers who range in age between 16-18 who are far more able minded and sophisticated than eleven year olds.

With thinking like that, who needs a brain.

Over time I've come to see ... (Below threshold)

Over time I've come to see the point of recitations. I grew up in a church that had a lot of them, and then went on to churches that actively disagreed with liturgical traditions (and were even more conservative), and I started to realize that reciting a creed has value. Not in making people *think* differently, but educational value. The recitations in church don't force anyone to *believe* any of it, but they *will* know when someone is teaching something *wrong*.

The pledge to the flag is a creed of sorts. Saying it doesn't *make* anyone patriotic and the idea that we're brainwashing the little darlings into hyper patriotism by having them say it isn't true. It really doesn't work that way.

What it does is ingrain the idea of what our country is *supposed* to be. It sets an ideal.

This is a good thing. It is a *very* good thing. It's part of what makes us react to injustice and inequality with "that's just wrong." Liberty and justice are for everyone. Very liberal ideas, those, eh?

Even "under God" simply means that our nation is not the *top* loyalty that we should have.

It's true that reciting pledges has gone out of style, just like reciting creeds or anything else all together with a group. We get the wrong sorts of conformist vibes from it. But we throw the baby out with the bathwater, really, because these rituals and recitations are one of the few ways that we educate about what our country is supposed to be about, what our ideals are, and what we hold as a common cause.

All the creeds and confessions and stuff in churches doesn't make anyone more faithful but they do make people more *educated* and a person notices that when they go to a church that wants to go for genuine expression rather than droning on in unison, that for some reason the congregation is missing simple doctrine. And probably no one realizes why.

And I am *absolutely* equating charismatic fundamentalists with secular liberals who think that all the good patriotic fervor for liberty and justice and our unique values of equality just *happen* without being *taught*.

Apparently reading is also ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Apparently reading is also a problem

Lets see, you opine in your experience the Pledge was only recited up to the sixth grade (you know, eleven year olds) as an excuse to use the phrase simple minded.

No, I said the reason they have kids say the pledge, and not say, adults (even if they work for the government), is that they are simple-minded and will go right along with it. Sorry if you find it offensive that children are not quite as sophisticated as adults, but it's true. I never said that the pledge was only recited up to sixth grade, but that grammar school students were whom I was referring to when I said kids. I know that some middle and high schools require students to say the pledge, but it starts in grammar school. Perhaps I should have said "that's why they start having people recite the pledge when they are kids," but I imagine you would be equally outraged.

And BTW mantis, I didn't "e... (Below threshold)
marc:

And BTW mantis, I didn't "erroneously apply" anything to you.

I said Many claim otherwise, they claim those "poor little" eighteen year olds are somehow coerced into joining because they also believe these "kids" are of "simple minds."

Nice try.

I want someone to explain t... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I want someone to explain to me why recognition of God is establishment of a religion? I mean that in the context of what the founders intended. Remembering that Catholics and Protestants were considered different religions. If pledging allegiance to the nation of your birth is distasteful, fucking move.

"Part of one planet",that's... (Below threshold)
BFF:

"Part of one planet",that's just stupid,and offensive to the other planets not named,I thought Hippie Commie Libs were better than that,tsk,tsk.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III,... (Below threshold)
Rance:

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III,

Again, loopy, or not, there are Christian churches that believe that unless you are a member of their church, the God you worship is not "the true God" and therefore you are a pagan.

One of the reason for excluding religion from schools is so that parents can teach their children religion without the interference of the school.

Can you imagine the backlash if some teacher tells a bunch of six-year olds that they and their parents are worshiping a false god and they are doomed to hell because of it?

One thing to keep in mind, no matter what church you belong to, the overwhelming majority of the people of the world consider what you believe to be in error and that you are not truly religious.

Here's an idea: When these ... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Here's an idea: When these kids leave class to recite their faux Pledge, mark each one down as being tardy or skipping class. When they earn enough, well, points slap detention on them. And while they're in detention, MAKE them re-write the Constitution. Or, better yet, the "Star-Spangled Banner", to make it more sing-able.

Liberals need so much freak... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Liberals need so much freakin attention it's pathetic. That's why millions are turned off by them. And why they had to change their name to progressive, which will be yet again another 4 letter word in no time.

And BTW mantis, I didn't... (Below threshold)
mantis:

And BTW mantis, I didn't "erroneously apply" anything to you.

Oh, so when you said this,

Of course "simple-minded" school kids fits right into the agenda of many doesn't it? That's why they, lemming-like, join the Military. Right mantis?

You didn't mean to imply that I'm of the opinion that members of the armed forces are kids? It's either that or you just like idiotic non sequiturs. Take your pick.

In any case, you can't respond to any facts I present or arguments I make, so you focus on one word, kids, and go from there. I said kids and I meant kids, as in schoolchildren, because it is in grammar school where we first are taught to recite the pledge.

But feel free to pluck out another word I used and introduce some irrelevant arguments made by people other than me. I'll keep pointed out how stupid it is to do so.

Here's another idea, Peter:... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Here's another idea, Peter: Why don't we take students who show critical thinking skills, can organize, and are willing to buck the system instead of being mindlessly deferential to authority, and punish them! Perhaps we can install independent thought alarms!

As a test of your sincerity... (Below threshold)
Rance:

As a test of your sincerity about The Pledge, how many of you have gotten together with your kids over summer vacation and said The Pledge with them since they were not in school to do it there?

How many have ever said The Pledge with their kids at home? Scout meetings, etc. don't count -- they are not a purely family event.

Mantis,You're just... (Below threshold)
BFF:

Mantis,

You're just simple-minded,like kids and some who join the military,and me,cause if someone joins the military,they are a better person than me and I thank them.

To you Mantis, you see the ... (Below threshold)
Vegas Vic:

To you Mantis, you see the American flag as just a piece of cloth and the pledge as hollow words. You dismiss the pledge because to you the words would require a commitment from you, which you obviously are not willing to make. Too many Americans' believe in the words in the pledge and in the flag. The pledge gives us strength in commitment and is a symbol of our unity. Where you see your politics in the flag, we see the symbol of a people whose beliefs and sacrifice has made us a nation.

Why don't we t... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
Why don't we take students who show critical thinking skills, can organize, and are willing to buck the system instead of being mindlessly deferential to authority, and punish them

I can dig it; I too was rooting for Jeff Spicoli when he told Mr. Hand "There's nothing wrong with eating pizza on our time."

Show critical thinking skills:
Indeed, if it was Mr. Hands time wasn't it everyone else's time that was present. YES
Can organize:
Certainly pizza delivery coordination is a logistic organization skill that should be applauded.
Willing to buck the system instead of being mindlessly deferential to authority:
Sporting a cool buzz during school certainly isn't being mindlessly deferential to authority and I was all for it when I was, well, er, left of center prior to the age of 18.
You dismiss the pledge b... (Below threshold)
mantis:

You dismiss the pledge because to you the words would require a commitment from you, which you obviously are not willing to make.

You have no idea. The commitment I make is the Constitution and my fellow Americans, not to some symbol. Symbols are a weak replacement for ideas. The eagle may be our symbol for freedom, but it was also the symbol of the Third Reich. Deference to symbols and required loyalty oaths are the tools of nationalist authoritarians. Ideas such as freedom and equality are the tools of enlightened democracies. If I'm not mistaken the fundamental ideal of our system is the emphasis on individual freedom, not national identity.

Too many Americans' believe in the words in the pledge and in the flag. The pledge gives us strength in commitment and is a symbol of our unity.

That's great for you. Mandatory daily pledges by schoolchildren to a symbol they don't necessarily understand are creepy and misplaced. Six year olds don't pledge allegiance to the flag because they believe the words ("one nation, invisible") and in the flag, they do it because they are told to do it. The religious overtones are no less confounded. Adding "under God" certainly protected us from the godless communists, but what now that we face an enemy that fights us "under God?"

Being deferential to author... (Below threshold)

Being deferential to authority is not being *mindlessly* deferential to authority.

Critical thinking would involve *thinking* about the pledge. What *exactly* in the pledge is contrary to liberal thought? The rewrite wasn't just taking "under God" out of it. It's putting other stuff in. Presumably because "liberty and justice for all" isn't inclusive enough.

As I was *critically thinking* about this as I drove my kids around between now and my last comment I wondered just why it is that we (for some value of "we") seem to think that liking our *own* country means disliking others, thus needing to pledge to the planet? We don't behave that way about our friends, feeling that liking our friends means hating people who aren't our friends.

Though I did meet one lady who was exactly like that. She told me when we first met that people either loved her or hated her. It became apparent over time that these were the only choices she allowed. Either she was your close friend or she hated your guts. I considered this pathological.

But that's how it seems the pledge is viewed. Or just being "pro-America" in general. I suppose it ties in with the idea of being cosmopolitan (some blog or other I read linked to an essay about it a few days ago) and the idea that it's harmful to like or prefer your own group or have loyalty to your country, that we all ought to be loyal to all of humanity equally. And I don't know how that causes harm except by assuming that loyalty or favor to some smaller sub-group is assumed to demand an answering hostility to those outside the group.

Why?

I don't think that people object to the pledge because saying pledges is silly. I think it makes them squirmy (and I've certainly read essays by parents saying they squirmed a *lot* when their child enjoyed the pledge and flags) to imply that they *ought* to prefer their own nation.

That a six year old doesn't... (Below threshold)

That a six year old doesn't understand that the flag is a symbol of freedom and equality or at least understand that the important elements are abstract ones doesn't change the fact that what the child looks at (the flag) and the words the child says (liberty and justice for all) is *exactly* what you say are the important things, the *idea* of freedom and equality associated with a symbol that is a symbol of our nation *and* those ideas.

It's not the only way to do this, but it is one way to teach children that the "Ideas such as freedom and equality are the tools of enlightened democracies."

No, they don't *get* it but they do remember it. For later.

mantis:In any ... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis:

In any case, you can't respond to any facts I present or arguments I make, so you focus on one word, kids, and go from there. I said kids and I meant kids, as in schoolchildren, because it is in grammar school where we first are taught to recite the pledge.

Remind me again who it was that pointed the discussion to kids in the elementary school level when the post and topic of discussion should be about high school "kids" and more specifically the Colorado teenagers.

You set the precedent then whine incessantly about being called on it.

On second thought, when I w... (Below threshold)

On second thought, when I was in school there was much talk about how everyone was supposed to be friends with everyone and not have a set group of close friends because that was a clique and that was *bad*.

My failure to mindlessly defer to authority and my insistence on thinking critically about this led me to conclude that the logic was faulty and I rejected the idea that human beings could function without a manageably small group of close friends.

Deference to s... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
Deference to symbols and required loyalty oaths are the tools of nationalist authoritarians.

Once I took my loyalty oath upon enlistment in the Army and my subsequence reenlistment loyalty oaths, I along with everyone showed respect to the national symbol which is the flag. At 0600 every morning at reveille we faced the flag and saluted until the flag was fully raised and the bugle call ended. In the evening "to the colors" was played followed by "retreat" while we face the flag and salute.

I never thought for a minute this should be required for civilians. However my doing it every day for 20 years never brainwashed me into being controlled by an authoritarian nationalist movement where I was a mindless dupe. I could still think on my own regardless.

But I'm sure in order for you to insinuate that the "Pledge" is a tool for nationalist authoritarians along with the flag as a symbol, there must be some examples of how this tradition turned unsuspecting youngsters into little mindless robots that will goose-step to their master's orders.


Ideas such as freedom and equality are the tools of enlightened democracies. If I'm not mistaken the fundamental ideal of our system is the emphasis on individual freedom, not national identity

Our national identity is our individual freedom. Those symbols are only reminders of that. They are not symbols of repression and conformity because of a school age requirement of recitation.

Are you really this cynical or just looking for anything to argue about?

Here's another idea, Pet... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Here's another idea, Peter: Why don't we take students who show critical thinking skills, can organize, and are willing to buck the system instead of being mindlessly deferential to authority, and punish them! Perhaps we can install independent thought alarms!

This is actually kind of funny! Which is how I find this whole "issue" in the first place: kinda funny and pointless. I mean, good for the kids for speaking out and questioning authority. Their hearts are in the right place, and they're trying to define themselves as people. Is what they're trying to do going to change anything? Nah, probably not. I guess my attempt to be tongue in cheek with my "go re-write the Star Spangled Banner" and help us all out with a better song (it really is musically awful; not that I don't appreciate what it stands for, means, etc., but musically it sucks) missed the mark. Oh well, I missed. *shrugs*

So I leave you with the immortal words of Arman Tanzarian (aka: Principal Skinner): "Up yours, children!"

They're are bigger fish to fry.

I would have more of a cond... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

I would have more of a condemning opinion of this if I hadn't gone through the same thing. My parents had nothing to do with it, either. When the National Anthem played before class, I stood up out of respect, but much to the dismay of my math teacher (a former marine), but refused to recite the Pledge or put my hand over my heart. Political affiliation had nothing to do with it because I didn't care until I was old enough to vote. It was, however, about being rebellious and believing that saying the Pledge was forcing me to conform to something.

Now, I not only say the full Pledge when it's requested and appropriate, but the words "Under God" are definitely included. My reasoning came several years after high school because I came to realize that we have the greatest Nation on Earth and are truly the most blessed. I say it because I now understand what it means to me.

Her inconsistency is where "Members of the activist club "Student Worker" are calling on students to leave class every Thursday at 8:30 a.m." to say her pledge. If she wants to make a political statement, fine, but you can't have it both ways. I don't see why she doesn't just stand there like I did while others say the Pledge before class, and then have her activist group meet after class (that's what our clubs did, thespian, christian, etc.) and say her pledge before their meeting starts.

We lose one troll, only to ... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

We lose one troll, only to gain a new one.

I question the timing.

If we'd simply get the gove... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

If we'd simply get the government the hell out of the business of running the schools, this whole argument wouldn't exist. The issue would then be a matter between the owners of the school and their clients (i.e. the parents of the students).

Her parents must be so prou... (Below threshold)
dickmr Author Profile Page:

Her parents must be so proud huh? The way I look at it, is if she came to me for a job, we'd look her over for the hit and then tell her the position was taken by a patriot. Losers go to the back of the line.

I have no personal problems... (Below threshold)

I have no personal problems with reciting the Pledge Of Allegiance myself, but I've attended Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall religious services for years, and most members of the faith will not recite it because it violates their faith by placing loyalty in the state higher than loyalty to God.

During WWII, German Jehovah's Witnesses refused loyalty to Hitler's state and were officially denied jobs and many had to resort to selling flowers to feed their families. Many died in concentration camps for refusal to fight for Germany and kill other human beings or to turn in Jews to the state.

This faith will put nothing higher than a loyalty to God. Not everyone who has problems with the Pledge Of Allegiance is an atheist, some are very religious persons with significant moral problems with putting anything higher than their loyalty to God.

This faith wil... (Below threshold)
Jumpinjoe:
This faith will put nothing higher than a loyalty to God. Not everyone who has problems with the Pledge Of Allegiance is an atheist, some are very religious persons with significant moral problems with putting anything higher than their loyalty to God


One nation "Under God"...mmmm, I think your friends are lost in the translation.
I could see their point if it said "One nation OVER God".

Nothing more than democra... (Below threshold)
RobLACal:

Nothing more than democrats trying to implement their Communist Goals or is it Democrat Goals. I suspect since they have been found out they sure seem to be doing quite a bit of rewriting of things and redefining words to suite their sick agenda. Relentless Frauds.

"13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures."

Now if some kid dose HERE T... (Below threshold)
Spurwing Plover:

Now if some kid dose HERE THE CHURCH HERE THE STEEPLE OPEN THE ALL THE PEOPLE they will send that child to some new age theropy group to except this GAIA poppycock of JAMES LOVELOCK,DAVID SUZUKI,MUARICE STRONG and AL GORE. SCREW CAPTIAN PLANET

Rob--I agree, Red Dawn</... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Rob--I agree, Red Dawn is the most underrated film of all time. WOLVERINES!!!

Spurwing Plover--what? You're totally incoherent.

So nobody finds the origin of the Pledge, as detailed above by mantis, to be hilarious? Nobody finds the fetishization of a symbol weird? Christ, the kids are too young to understand what it's even about. I say to hell with all authoritarian chants. When kids enter middle school, gradually introduce them to the great canon upon which the United States was founded, and which reflects the spirit towards which the great nation aspires. Start with French philosophers like Montesquieu and Rousseau (sufficiently dumbed down--let's be honest, these aren't Korean or Indian kids we're talking about!). Jefferson et al follow logically here, as does Thoreau. Then by the time they've got a rough understanding of the why and how of America, feed them he who says better than any why it's a country they should love, and even gladly die for--Whitman! Reading the great American sages will instill in any thinking person a great love of country; memorizing some third-rate prose written for a 19th century Christian children's magazine is more akin to intellectual punishment. Nationalism is only noble when it comes from within. It must be wholehearted, and feel right, not merely correct.

But Paul, it *doesn't* put ... (Below threshold)

But Paul, it *doesn't* put loyalty to the state before God. It says *under* God. I thought that the JW objection was to saying the word "God" at all.

Putting an oath of loyalty before God is what gets the Masons in trouble. (Supposedly... it's all a secret anyhow.)

JumpinJoe and Synova,... (Below threshold)
Rance:

JumpinJoe and Synova,

With the religious groups, it's not about whether it's "under God", or not. It's about swearing an oath to support anything that isn't God.

Hyperbolist:There'... (Below threshold)
kim:

Hyperbolist:

There's a little thing you screw in your ear
Then Spurwing Plover comes in loud and clear.

SQUAWK, SQUAWK.
=====

Remember the two door Matad... (Below threshold)
kim:

Remember the two door Matador? SP does.
======

Oh, also, Pere Ubu's gonna ... (Below threshold)
kim:

Oh, also, Pere Ubu's gonna gitcha, gitcha, gitcha.
=======

Oh look how the flag was de... (Below threshold)
Spurwing Plover:

Oh look how the flag was defaced someone put the 70s chicken footprint peace symbol on it




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