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Feminism works

Yesterday, Rachel Lucas wrote a great post called Girl Power about her observations of college students at a bar. She came away with three key points (caution for a teeny-tiny bit of language):

(1) It can be confidently asserted that it is, in fact, considered "stylish" and "hot" for young women to openly flaunt their doughy, protruding midsection regions and to dance like drunken strippers. Thank you, Britney and Paris. It seems the jellyroll exposure is necessary in order to display the tramp stamp lower-back tattoo that every. single. one. of. them. has.

(2) These same young women appear to have so thoroughly emasculated the males of their generation that there is now one AND ONLY ONE acceptable outfit for young men: horizontal-striped polo shirt with collar popped up, cargo shorts that hit midcalf ever-so-effeminately, and flip-flops or, alternatively, leather slip-on loafers. Hair must be moussed and gelled into either a giant spiky mess or a faux-hawk. Approximately 80% of the males sport multiple tattoos on arms and lower legs, clearly in a bid to simply keep up with the tattoo ratio the girls have achieved.

(3) Young females are every bit as, or more, disgusting, revolting, and downright nasty as their male counterparts. My sole foray into the "ladies" room ("ladies" - hehe - that's a good one) afforded me the opportunity to breathe in the pungent odor of vomit; to hear one girl telling her cohorts, "I don't want to go home OR puke! I want my drink back! Fuck off!" and another girl shouting into her cell phone, "She can eat shit! Gawd, what a whore!"; and to practice my cat-like tiptoeing skills as I navigated the floor which was littered with an almost solid layer of wet toilet paper and the shards from what were at least three broken glasses.

Ah, noble womanhood. We should definitely be running the world, as it is more clear now than ever that we have our shit together.


I will say that the fashion sense in Florida is [alarmingly] similar and yet different at the same time. A lot of Florida guys, for example, like to go for surfer chic instead of preppy chic. This means they wear ripped up cargo pants or board shorts, a t-shirt with one of the top three surfer brands (Billabong, Quicksilver, or Rip Curl), and flip flops, always. They top it off with this weird, messy hairdo that I can't really describe. It's long-ish, shaggy, and stylishly swept over their forehead and into their eyes, so that they can constantly be doing the girly hair flip.

She pretty much hit the female fashion sense on the head, though. I don't go to bars or clubs much anymore, and when I do, there are hordes of these girls running around wearing next to nothing, showing off the pre-requisite belly button piercing most of them got when they were sixteen and yes, the tramp stamp.

Now, the tramp stamp I can't really condemn. I have two tattoos, one of which is on my lower back. In my own defense, it has a very personal meaning to it, and I didn't just slap a butterfly, a dolphin, a sun and/or a moon, or some kind of weird tribal there just for the sake of having a tattoo that I thought was "sexy". Therefore, I don't classify mine as a tramp stamp. ;) I put it on my lower back because then it wouldn't be seen by the entire world -- it's for me and no one else. It's only seen when I want it to be seen.

But in any case, girls seem to lately pride themselves on being as "sexy", "wild", and "crazy" as they can be. They go to bars, cheering with their girlfriends about how they are going to get so f*cked up!, proceed to get drunk, and will do just about anything for a little attention. Dance like a stripper on top of a bar? No problem. Flash her little boobies for a free beer? Awesome. Make out with her best friend to get all the guys in the bar in a circle around them cheering? Great, now they know they're getting laid tonight.

It's like girls are in an unofficial race to keep up with the boys, to prove that they aren't lightweights and can outdrink the guys, can sleep around just as much as guys can, can be just as loud, rude, obnoxious, and disgusting as guys can. It's cool to talk in this breathy, ditzy little voice, to giggle at everything a guy says, and basically embody the blonde idiot stereotype as best you can. Strangely enough, slapping has come back, I guess. It's "cute" for a girl to do the little girly slap whenever a guy says something funny. "Oh my God, shut up!"

These little girly girls will act all tough if they see some girl they don't like, too, one of my favorite acts. They'll spot them across the bar and talk all tough to their friends about how, "If that bitch says even one word to me I'm going to kick her ass!" She'll then spend the rest of the night hoping that bitch will come over and say one word to her so that she can then prove what a tough bitch she is. They'll get in each others faces, talk a lot of trash, and then get into some kind of catfight before they're kicked out of the bar. The entire time, drunken boys will be cheering and no one will be trying to break the two girls up.

And feminists wonder why guys are so amazed and enthralled when they somehow meet a classy, intelligent, together young woman (I say "young" because most of these girls will grow out of this phase, but meeting a young twenty-something girl who doesn't act like a drunken skank is more unusual than it is common).

I hate those girls. And if you go out to a bar or a club, they're everywhere.

Thankfully, not all twenty-something girls are like that (hello!). The ones that aren't are the ones who don't feel the need to go to a bar and get plastered, and therefore, you won't see them if you go looking at a bar for them. The old adage that you'll never meet someone worth dating and/or marrying at a bar or a club is still true. It's just too bad that classy, intelligent, together, attractive young women are more of a minority than a majority.

At any rate, these girls will go one of either two ways. They'll grow out of it and be mortified at the way they once acted, and will go on to lead normal, healthy lives, probably keeping their daughters in a semi-prison to try to prevent them from acting the way that they did. OR, they'll grow out of it in the sense that they stop going to bars every weekend but look back fondly on those memories, take their daughters to get matching tramp stamps in an effort to still be "cool", and will probably never settle down with a good man.

And I also agree with another point of Rachel's -- the thanks can be put squarely onto the shoulders of Britney and Paris, for glorifying skankified stripper chic. Look at me, I dress like a whore, I'm so cool! Oh my gawsh, I made a sex tape, I'm so famous! Check it out, I party every single night!

I just hope that my [future] daughter's generation does not repeat these same mistakes. I hope they grow up knowing how ridiculous it is to be "liberated" enough to act this way, and are able to show more restraint than these girls do. We don't need a second generation of these Barbie Doll idiots.


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Comments (43)

I am still mystified by one... (Below threshold)
Steve L.:

I am still mystified by one thing. Why weren't there girls like this when I was in my 20s? ;)

Years and years later, afte... (Below threshold)
Jo:

Years and years later, after all the fighting for "rights" it is still a man's world MORE THAN EVER. Thanks feminists!

We're in a serious transiti... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

We're in a serious transitional period from our uncivilized roots to something approaching civilization and we're all trying to figure out our places in that civilization all while most of the rest of the world is hopelessly decadent and/or narcisstic and/or nihilistic and/or stuck in the time when women were property.

Think about it, as long as you don't think the world was created 5,000 years ago with people fully formed, then you must believe at least somewhat in evolution. That means that we evolved from flat-out animals and have been trying to throw off millions of years of evolution.

Up until decades ago in America, men were men, men were white and women were to be protected, barefoot and pregnant.
Now? Women want to be equal, but they also would not be human if they didn't like being treated "special" by men. They also have to feel an inate need for approval from men (evolution and all that), while men have pretty much usually allowed women to do whatever they wanted as long as we got laid. Until marriage, and then, we owned them.
Think about some hot girl, she can say any inane thing that pops into her head and men will be like, "Wow! That's so deep. Can I buy you a drink while we discuss your philosophy?" It takes a strong person to use your mind when you think (and often are taught) that men don't like "strong women" (usually put out by women who think that being rude, sarcastically-demeaning and obnoxious is being "strong", like Maureen Dowd).

Also, many parents have relinquished many of their responsibities for raising their children. In two-working-parent and one-parent families (now, probably close to a majority of families), the kids are raised by day care centers (18-22 year old girls) and teachers (liberal arts educated, neo-coms*) and their values are the ones the kids are getting.

We're all trying to figure out our roles in this new world and women have no good role models anymore, (Who? Britney? Martha Stewart? Maureen Dowd? Oprah?) while pop culture makes vulgar women the ideal and June Cleaver is the punch line to an SNL skit.

So we're stuck with metrosexual men who can't drive sticks and strong women who can't cook but love to get drunk, curse, fart and burp. That's life in the year 2007.

*sorry, I have no idea where I heard "neo-com" but I think it was here. I'm stealing it.

Hehe, tramp stamps. This <... (Below threshold)
Heralder:

Hehe, tramp stamps. This SNL skit comes to mind.

The funniest tattoo coment ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

The funniest tattoo coment I ever heard was:

Guys like girls with tatoos because it shows that they're willing to do something stupid that they'll regret the rest of their lives.

It's funny because its true...

(Sorry I don't remember who said it or where.)

(Sorry I don't remember ... (Below threshold)
Veeshir:

(Sorry I don't remember who said it or where.)
Funny you say that P. Bunyan, considering I found the link for "neo-com" and realized I stole it from you.
I would feel better if I didn't have a nagging suspicion that you put that in there to tweak me.
If you did, good show.

The only tattoo I ever care... (Below threshold)
pennywit:

The only tattoo I ever cared for was three feet tall and yelled "De plane!! De plane!!"

--|PW|--

Two tattoos? Ugh. Girls wit... (Below threshold)
BC:

Two tattoos? Ugh. Girls with tattoos look like trash.

Yes, there are still a few men who feel that way.

The only people who should have tattoos are sailors, Marines, greasers, and sociopaths.

Your stereotypes of both me... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Your stereotypes of both men and women in their early 20s are accurate only for a certain part of this demographic. They're called douche bags and sluts.

Douche bags are easily identifiable with their disgusting wet hair, unoriginal tattoos, flip flops (who the hell wants to look at your feet, douche bags?), and popped collars. If somebody with wet-looking hair and a Dave Matthews t-shirt comes up to you and offers you a drink, just say "No!" to roofies. These guys are easily identifiable in later life, too: they travel in groups of four or more, enjoy drinking in establishments like Chili's, tuck in their off-the-rack striped shirts, and aren't afraid to wear pleats in public. They are to be avoided.

Sluts sport lower back tattoos (coasters for douche bags' draft glasses), shitty clothing (Abercrombie, Gap, Old Navy, etc.), and tacky make-up/jewelry. I don't use the word "slut" to indicate a proclivity for having sex with strangers; hell, lots of cool, secure boys and girls do that. I use the word "slut" to indicate somebody who wishes people to think they have such a proclivity in order to assert themselves as valuable commodities. (See: Girls Gone Wild)

Now, as for the other part of this age demographic that your post fails to encompass, we have people 1) with good taste in music 2) who read books. These are the most important factors in determining whether or not a guy is a douche bag (jock, surfer, prep, frat boy), or a dude worth striking up a conversation with. A girl who "just really likes top-40" probably really likes shopping malls, too. And, like, ohmigod, if she finally lands a cute engineer/BBA, she can go back to eating carbs because, like, who gives a shit once you've got a ring on your finger, right? (Excuse me, I just threw up in my mouth.) Now, young people that appreciate good older music (Beatles, Stones, Velvet Underground), progressive hip-hop, indie rock, jazz, classical music, etc. are the sort of people whom I get drunk and make fun of douche bags with. People who read (Harry Potter and Da Vinci Code don't count) are a helluva lot more likely to exist outside of the cookie-cutter douche bag-slut dichotomy. They might enjoy getting trashed and having sex as much as their douche bag/slut roommates--hell, they probably "experiment" more--but they tend to be mature, intelligent, and careful about it.

So, this ridiculously over-generalized pseudo-sociological diatribe has been in part a defense of a significant portion of my age demographic (I'm 25); but it's also a rejection of your hypothesis that feminism is the cause of girls becoming bar sluts. 3rd wave feminism is about choice, and these girls choose to be skanks. Why? Because American pop culture is poison. Smart kids at good universities (i.e. schools not known for their football teams) do pretty well at insulating themselves from American pop culture, whereas ignorant hicks just fuckin' dive right in. (They don't know any better, especially when they get to college.) Contemporary feminists hardly encourage this kind of behavior. They believe that girls should make choices for themselves, without having their horizons diminished by traditional morality. Unfortunately, horizons are diminished by other phenomena too, chiefly a poisonous culture that rewards conformity and herd psychology.

The fuck-ups (sluts) that you take issue with, Cassy, actually exhibit the same "I live to make men happy" mentality that women exhibited prior to second wave feminism, albeit spliced with MTV trash-culture. This is a problem with third wave feminism: letting girls choose for themselves is necessarily good, but choices are not made in a void, and the culture is toxic and infests one's rational faculties. The same can be said for young men: while douche bags often make good boyfriends (well, I assume some of them do), they feel compelled to act macho, get in fights, take advantage of drunk sluts, and dance like retards to retard music. And they think this is mating! This is chiefly because they are products of their environment.

The solution? Change the cultural environment! Kill your television! READ! Turn off the fucking radio and expose yourself to art! This is not an issue that should be taken as partisan. It's a problem for all Americans when a good portion of an entire generation seems destined to be conformist sheep with bad taste. Young Europeans speak several languages and can find Canada on a map; what hope is there for America so long as the future belongs to douche bags and sluts?

When it comes to why people... (Below threshold)

When it comes to why people act and dress this way, I think we have to go back to the 60's. That decade was all about throwing off restraint, when the then fringe railed against their parents and all authority. We had the "sexual revolution" (who won that, anyway?), where we were told "If it feels good, do it!"

Fast forward to today. The people in power today, especially in the media, are largely products of that time, so we are fed the philosophy that saw them through their youth day after day after day, through music, movies, and TV.

One of the things that bothers me the most is the wide acceptance of the idea that everyone should have the chance to "sow their wild oats" before settling down. The problem with that is that it has produced a sex-crazed society unable to maintain stable relationships. The impact of this is acutely seen in our teens and young adults, who are not emotionally ready for the consequences of their behaviors. Paris and Britney are symptoms, not the disease.

Ultimately, the throwing off of restraint, especially when it comes to sex and alcohol, has damaged this country greatly. I hope the youth of today rebel against the selfish attitudes of the 60's that led us to where we are today.

Veeshir,No, I real... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Veeshir,

No, I really don't remember where I heard that quote. I wasn't gonna say anything about your use of "neocom" because I don't care to toot my own horn and you (or anyone else for that matter) are welcome to use it as much as you want. I think its very appropriate.

I'm proud to be a neocon (at least on several topics).

If you go to bars you are g... (Below threshold)
David:

If you go to bars you are going to see the kind of people that go to bars.

If you are in a college town find the bars whose clients are grad students. You will find a slightly higher class of drunks, but drunks never the less.

Want to see the other youth, go to a play, or an opera, or...you get the point.

JFNK, if you want a return ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

JFNK, if you want a return to traditional pre-1960s values, you should start with the red states (the "family values" posse). They appear to have problems "maintain[ing] stable relationships".

Link: http://www.divorcereform.org/94staterates.html Yeah, I know that data is a decade old, but it's what I could find.

Why is the part of the country least susceptible to 60's liberationist philosophy (one would presume, anyway) so permissive in this regard? Well, they're hypocrites, obviously; my point is, though, that you've got a hell of a lot of work to do if you want to connect the 1960's cultural revolution (which didn't have the same effect in the Bible Belt as it did in the eeeevil Liberal coastal enclaves) to the disgusting trash Cassy is talking about.

hyperbolist:"Smart k... (Below threshold)
D-Hoggs:

hyperbolist:
"Smart kids at good universities (i.e. schools not known for their football teams) do pretty well at insulating themselves from American pop culture, whereas ignorant hicks just fuckin' dive right in. "

Talk about ignorant.

Umm, yeah, I was talking ab... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Umm, yeah, I was talking about ignorance, D-Hoggs. Anyway, take a cross-section of kids from NYU/Columbia/Smith and compare them to a sampling from OSU or Florida State. One group is gonna be a lot more worldly and mature than the other.

Hyperbolist isn't ignorant ... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Hyperbolist isn't ignorant D-Hoggs, just a typical elitist snob leftist neocom who lives in a fabricated reality where everything leftist, socialist, and communist is right and good and everything conservative is evil and bad.

Basically 180 degrees from reality.

"Dude, I just got to meet t... (Below threshold)

"Dude, I just got to meet the President of Iran at a wine and cheese meet-n-greet!"

"Cool! We're so much more worldly and mature here at Columbia than those hicks in Florida!"

When the women's lib moveme... (Below threshold)
Diane:

When the women's lib movement was in full force during the late 60's and early 70's, I remember my mother saying...

"Why would I want to be equal with men? I'd have to lower myself to their level!!"

Actually, Hyper, I would li... (Below threshold)

Actually, Hyper, I would like to see traditional values get a little more play, period. As far as divorces go, I wonder if the difference is caused by those who never marry while maintaining a marriage-like relationship with someone else. As to hypocrisy: Just because someone does not live up to a value system, it does not invalidate the value system. Finally, having been born in '65, I certainly don't know what it was like before the '60's. It does not change my view that we would be better off as a society if we waited to have sex until marriage and didn't drink so much alcohol. I don't want legislation to accomplish these things, because they come from within. Am I afraid to be seen as a prude for harboring such sentiments? Absolutely not. But I have avoided many unnecessary problems in my life because of my choices in these areas. Now, if I could straighten out a few other things in my life...

You draw that conclusion be... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

You draw that conclusion because... I have disdain for douche bag conformists who like to put on pleated slacks before jumping into the LeBaron and heading out for an evening at Chili's? Touch a nerve?

Really, though, being an elitist doesn't make me a neo-com. Elitists span the whole spectrum, and count amongst themselves luminaries such as William F. Buckley Jr. and James Wolcott. The nation would be better off if young people tried to maximize their intellectual capabilities and turned off their fucking television sets, regardless of their political stripes.

Yo Falze man, you catch the... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Yo Falze man, you catch the Gators game?! It was AWESOME! Some idiot hit some other idiot and then a ball went over a line and 70,000 idiots went NUTS!!! I spilled beer all over the place!

Given the opportunity, you wouldn't want to go watch academics embarrass Ahmadinejad, or even try to ask that idiot a question yourself? I would have loved to have been there. Agree to disagree, I guess.

JFNK, whose life isn't a little crooked here and there? :) I found it interesting that atheists and agnostics had the lowest divorce rates in the few studies I glanced at. I don't think traditional morality is necessarily the solution (although if it works for you, good); I think addressing how dehumanizing and intellectually stultifying contemporary popular culture is would be a good start to what would very likely be a hopelessly uphill battle.

I draw my conclusions based... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

I draw my conclusions based not on this thread alone but on the totality of your comments on this blog.

BCThe only peo... (Below threshold)
marc:

BC

The only people who should have tattoos are sailors, Marines, greasers, and sociopaths

Sorry BC, it's the "new Navy" now. If a newly applied tattoo is detected by your chain of command now you'll be headed for Captain's Mast with a resulting restriction to base/ship for "X" number of days and loss of a month or two of pay.

I'm an expert in drunken ba... (Below threshold)

I'm an expert in drunken bar behavior. I bartended and managed bars for many years. It was my experience that bad behavior and immaturity came in all economic classes, all sexes and all ages.

The mens room was trashed nightly. Even in the nicest places I worked. If the alcohol was flowing - you could count on it. Broken glassware, vomit, wet tissue and paper towels thrown all over the floor, broken fixtures and holes punched in the walls. Keeping up with the wanton destruction throughout the evening was a major chore.

The ladies room was worse.

Here's one that for the life of me I cannot figure out: These girls will go home with someone they just met for sex, but God forbid they should touch a toilet handle to flush it, "EW! There could be germs on it!" Excuse me, honey, but the germs on it are from you hovering two feet over the bowl and spraying everything in a two foot radius.

Cassy pegged these women/girls right. And no, not all are like that. I don't know the causes for it. All I know is I don't like it one bit. It embarrasses me as a woman.

It's not just when they're ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

It's not just when they're completely shit-canned either, Oyster. I had the pleasure of working in "store standards" (euphemism for janitorial duties) at a Wal-Mart for six months during high school. I had to peel soiled feminine napkins off of the walls of toilet stalls on more occasions than I would care to remember. Yuck city. I'm not sure how much sense it makes to blame MTV for that, but I'm going to anyway. :)

P. Bunyan--thanks! I guess saying that your opinion of reality is the correct perspective of it makes you...what?...certainly not arrogant or elitist...

hyperbolistN... (Below threshold)

hyperbolist

NYU/Columbia/Smith

How things must have changed....in the seventies and eighties those were happy hunting grounds. Something makes me think nothing has changed, though.

BTW, Oyster knows what he's talking about....if he's talking Rush Street or Division in Chicago.

There was a time when adult... (Below threshold)
Scott:

There was a time when adult women of a certain class still wore their hair as they did in college. College students wore khakis and button down shirts and continued this into adulthood. There was no reason to change as it was fashionable to begin with.

I can't imagine what these women will look like when they're 40.

The sad thing is I hear friends tell me that young people turn up for job interviews dressed as described in the above post.

Psst, HughS: Oyster's a ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Psst, HughS: Oyster's a girl. (I know--yuck!) :)

I don't suppose it would wo... (Below threshold)

I don't suppose it would work for everyone but I found that a little bit of watching drunk people made it really *really* easy for me not to do that.

Watching them while *sober*... (Below threshold)

Watching them while *sober*.

That sober part is important. The drunk people... well, the next morning they're like... I was so smashed I puked all over Tim and then Bo puked in Sally's car. Oh, and hey, did you see who I was with? I woke up with this necklace I never saw before and I think I had sex. Wow, what a fantastic party!

And you say, well, I was there. You were pathetic and obnoxious and you ruined my shoes, a**hole.

Psst, HughS: Oyster's... (Below threshold)

Psst, HughS: Oyster's a girl.

My apologies.

Wow, remember the staid old... (Below threshold)
epador:

Wow, remember the staid old days of bathtub-gin guzzling flappers and molls? How we have sunken to the troughs of depravity.

*sigh* you're so much more ... (Below threshold)

*sigh* you're so much more worldly and mature than I could ever hope to be...not to mention progressive!

These feminists have made u... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

These feminists have made us guys very happy.

I used to bounce at bars wh... (Below threshold)
Cloudfish:

I used to bounce at bars when I was younger---did it for 7 years and got very burned out on watching idiots. I've oft told people that working in a bar teaches you exactly how NOT to act when you're out in public....

Hyperbolist, you are... (Below threshold)
Eric Forhan:

Hyperbolist, you are living up to your name!

Your statistics are misleading. The simple reason that most of those bible belt states have more divorces are because people marry more there than many other states. In fact, some of those with high numbers have a lower ratio of divorces than some of those you tout so proudly.

CDC numbers on marriage and divorce rates for various years from 1990 through 2002:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/mar&div.pdf

98% of all statistics are the bane of Man. Of that, I'm 99.99% sure.

hyperbolist is like Titus11... (Below threshold)
kim:

hyperbolist is like Titus11.
============================

That's the half strength.<b... (Below threshold)
kim:

That's the half strength.
=====================

Why do you communicate like... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Why do you communicate like that, kim? The world doesn't need another Dennis Miller. The world needs one less Dennis Miller, actually.

Eric, I know blue states have lower marriage rates than red states (ceteris paribus). The divorce rates, nevertheless, support my general point: that the permissiveness in mainstream American culture is in certain respects most manifest in the parts of the country where most of the moralistic hand-wringing on the subject takes place. Now I really don't care if Evangelicals get divorced; I just find it funny when they blame Hollywood for the moral decay of the nation, and disregard their own poor judgment or weak will as contributing factors.

And anyway the topic is (was?) young people who are socially compelled to act like sluts/douche bags, especially when in situations involving alcohol. Nobody wants to say anything nice about sluts/d.bags? :)

So divorce is from 'poor ju... (Below threshold)
kim:

So divorce is from 'poor judgment and weak will', now, h?
===========================

Depends, kim. If you just g... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Depends, kim. If you just get tired of each other, no; if you realize quickly that you aren't compatible, then it's poor judgment; and if it stems from infidelity/alcoholism/compulsive gambling/etc., then it's weakness of will.

As a big proponent of recreational divorce (I got Liz Taylor's rookie card!!!), I should've been more clear.

Hyperbolist,You mi... (Below threshold)
Eric Forhan:

Hyperbolist,

You miss the point: the "lower rate" divorce states are that way because they don't even ~try~ marriage. It's very difficult to get divorced if one never gets married in the first place.

What the statistics don't show are habitual relationship jumpers as well as the opposite end of non-marital long-term monogamous relationships.

So sure... by these statistics alone you are correct. I can't deny that ~divorce~ rates are higher in Bible belt states by these statistics. But to come to your conclusion seems like semantics when we're missing a huge chunk of data--that blue states are still having long-term relationships, but not even trying (or believing in) marriage.

Odds are that if you were able to add those stats in, it would make blue states poor places for relationships, indeed. ;)

"Wow, remember the staid... (Below threshold)

"Wow, remember the staid old days of bathtub-gin guzzling flappers..."

epador, I figured you were old, but wow! You were there? :)




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