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Yes, I Do Take Israel's Side

Yesterday, I took a swipe at the language being used to describe the current flare-up in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In the course of the comments, "ryan a" challenged me for saying I thought the Palestinians were in the wrong.

He's right. I do believe that.

And I think I'm justified.

No, I don't think that it's black and white, that the Palestinians are wholly in the wrong and the Israelis complete innocents. But I think that the scales are seriously tipped that way.

Ryan cited the destruction of Palestinian homes by Israelis. Yes, they do that. Most often, it's because those "homes" are being used for terrorist attacks. They are sniper nests, tunnel outlets, and workshops as well as homes, and that makes them valid military targets.

Yes, the Israelis tend to arrest and imprison a lot of Palestinians. Compared to the Palestinian idea of "justice," which has often ended in lynchings of Israelis that get taken into custody, and I think that the Israelis are far superior.

The Israelis occasionally kill those they don't intend to, and so do the Palestinians. These are almost always Palestinians, as the Palestinians don't seem to recognize the idea that there are Israelis they shouldn't kill.

The Israelis put a great deal of effort into focusing their attacks on militant targets. The Palestinians don't recognize that there is anything but a valid target, and fire off their unguided rockets in the general direction of Israel, believing that whatever they hit will be just fine with them.

There's an old saying that "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." While that's true, it doesn't go far enough. When given a choice, they almost inevitably choose death and destruction over life and hope.

When Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip, a few wealthy Americans bought some very valuable greenhouses that were intended to be dismantled and brought back to Israel. They were then given -- free and clear -- to the Palestinians, so they could use them and make some moves towards independence. Instead, they vandalized and cannibalized them, stripping them and destroyed them utterly. The fact that they were built by the Israelis outweighed anything else.

And when the people of the Palestinian Authority had their last election, they chose to side with the terrorists and gave their power to Hamas, who proudly proclaim that they are at war with Israel, boast of their terrorist attacks, threaten (and carry out) suicide bombings and kidnappings and sniper attacks and anything else they can imagine.

The difference is, I think, racist at its core. And I don't like saying that.

Israel is, largely, a Western nation. It's a Constitutional democracy, it's technologically advanced, and has remarkable protections for human rights and freedom. And that means that it is held to a remarkably high standard for morality.

On the other hand, the Palestinians are Arabs. They don't have a history of democracy or civilization. They are seen as, essentially, "primitives." We can't hold them to a higher standard, a human standard for civilized conduct. We don't blame them for that savage inhumanity because they haven't been seen as truly human.

I reject that. Circumstances certainly have a hefty part to play in these matters, but they are not purely the determining factor. If there were sufficient Palestinians interested in peace, then there would be actual signs of that over the years.

So yes, I blame them. I hold them accountable for their actions, as I would any other group of people.

They are, despite what their apologists would have you believe, fundamentally human. And they are evincing purely human traits at their worst. And that has been their choice.

So yeah, ryan a, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is not black and white. It's gray, with neither side being purely right or wrong.

But it's a damned dark shade of gray on the Palestinian side, and a pretty light shade on the Israeli side. And I not only do not apologize for believing and pointing that out, i am proud of it.


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Comments (81)

Would you rather live next ... (Below threshold)
GianiD:

Would you rather live next to an Israeli village, or a Palestinian village?

For me, its not even close, I'd rather not hear rocket sirens daily, Id rather not worry about an attack every time I see someone wearing an overcoat, and I'd rather not play dodgeball with the 10,000 or so 'projectiles(missiles, rpgs, etc) the palestinians are firing off into Israel every year.

Well said, Jay. Those who c... (Below threshold)
John F Not Kerry:

Well said, Jay. Those who continuously chastise Israel consistently overlook the atrocities committed against them since their refounding in 1947(?). Of course they've done some wrong things, just as America has, but with enemies on every side what would you do? Their very existence is on a knife edge every day. I root for Israel unashamedly as a gentile and as a Christian.

I would not want to send my... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I would not want to send my children off to school not knowing if they will be killed before the end of the day, everyday. ww

Jay,I appreciate y... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Jay,

I appreciate you taking the time to state your position, and I think you make some valid points and bring up some of the more critical dimensions of this whole thing. Also, thanks for the respectful tone in your presentation.

I do have my disagreements though.

In the course of the comments, "ryan a" challenged me for saying I thought the Palestinians were in the wrong.

Well, my challenge was more about not including Israel as being in the wrong as well. I completely agree with the fact that the Palestinians who commit atrocities should be held accountable. But I do not think it's a one way street.

Ryan cited the destruction of Palestinian homes by Israelis. Yes, they do that. Most often, it's because those "homes" are being used for terrorist attacks. They are sniper nests, tunnel outlets, and workshops as well as homes, and that makes them valid military targets.

All I can do is respond based upon what I have read. In some cases, I think you are right and that the targets may have been legitimate. But in other cases the homes have been just that--the homes of Palestinian people. Unless of course you have sources that clearly document the fact that ALL of those homes were terrorist enclaves--but I am a little suspicious about that.

There's an old saying that "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." While that's true, it doesn't go far enough. When given a choice, they almost inevitably choose death and destruction over life and hope.

Ok. Now you're overstating your point a little too much. I do think that the Palestinians have made plenty of pretty terrible choices--at least some of them have. But to argue that they simply choose death and destruction is taking things way too far. This is a population of people who have been displaced, and who continue to be displaced, by a pretty fierce military and political power. It's not as if the Palestinian people were just sitting around in 1948 and simply CHOSE to start this whole thing up. Many of them were pretty much forced into it.

We are looking at the results of a long and brutal conflict, and at this point both sides have made their fair share of unjustified attacks and transgressions.

I think that this whole thing is incredibly complex, but also that each side has its valid claims. The problem is that two sides who have a violent and often hate-ridden history have to figure out how to come to the table and make concessions.

Israel is, largely, a Western nation. It's a Constitutional democracy, it's technologically advanced, and has remarkable protections for human rights and freedom. And that means that it is held to a remarkably high standard for morality.

Yes, Israel is a democracy. And it's technologically advanced. And it does have an internal democratic rhetoric that espouses human rights and freedom. But those rights do NOT apply to everyone equally--especially the Palestinian citizens of Israel. In many cases, Israel's high standards are only applied to specific peoples.

The Israelis often do not uphold their own standards, and that's a problem that they need to address. Part of the reason is because the 'democratic state' of Israel is not exactly purely democratic--not all of the citizens have an equal ownership of the democracy. But I think these things will be worked out over time--hopefully.

On the other hand, the Palestinians are Arabs. They don't have a history of democracy or civilization. They are seen as, essentially, "primitives." We can't hold them to a higher standard, a human standard for civilized conduct. We don't blame them for that savage inhumanity because they haven't been seen as truly human.

Palestinians are not primitives. They are human beings with a long cultural and political history that deserves respect. And they should be held accountable for their actions, period.

So I agree with you when you reject such obviously false claims and characterizations.

I reject that. Circumstances certainly have a hefty part to play in these matters, but they are not purely the determining factor. If there were sufficient Palestinians interested in peace, then there would be actual signs of that over the years.

Here you make a good point, and I agree with you in part. I do think that many Palestinians have held onto grievances and lost opportunities for resolution in the process. Hatred runs deep, and its not going to get anybody anywhere.

The whole thing has gone in waves, and the most recent wave has seen another increase in violence and polemic rhetoric coming from the Palestinians. There seems to be less patience and hope for peaceful resolution since 2000 or so.

So yes, I blame them. I hold them accountable for their actions, as I would any other group of people.

Good. I completely agree with you here.

But it's a damned dark shade of gray on the Palestinian side, and a pretty light shade on the Israeli side. And I not only do not apologize for believing and pointing that out, i am proud of it.

Here is where we disagree. I think that the shades of gray are quite a bit closer in many cases. But I also do not think that this picture is something that can be considered static. It shifts. The shades of gray, as we call them, change with different actions and decisions. Sometimes the Palestinians are in the black, or the dark gray. And sometimes the Israelis are. Pretending that we are simply looking at a static relationship between the two is to ignore both history and the details of present actions.

In the end, I think that both sides should be held accountable, based upon what they choose to do in all this. And neither side should be given a free pass based upon generalized conceptions of what this whole conflict is about. We can't ignore the details, or the complexities.

I can understand those with... (Below threshold)
Gary Gulrud:

I can understand those with an isolationist impulse knowing that World War is imminent at the instigation of Iran via the Hizb'Allah and Hamas proxies. They would prefer we were out of harms way.
Misguided, naive, cannon fodder.
But the intransigence of the ancient hatred of the JOOOOOOOs really is beyond comprehension. ESAD, morons.

Damn Jay - you have been <i... (Below threshold)

Damn Jay - you have been ON in the last couple of days...

ryan, I don't have time rig... (Below threshold)

ryan, I don't have time right now to fully respond to you, but one thing stuck out that I want to address:

"The Israelis often do not uphold their own standards, and that's a problem that they need to address."

I'd say that Israel mostly does uphold their own standards. Conversely, the Palestinians, apparently, have none whatsoever. So, I guess, technically, that makes them "better?"

President Bush caught a bit of flak for something he said a while ago, but it's so true: he said that "there was a Nelson Mandela in Iraq, but Saddam killed him." The same holds true for the Palestinians.

J.

Jay,Well said.... (Below threshold)

Jay,

Well said.

The Israeli's are on the side of Western Society. The Palestinians are a particularly reprehensible clump of barbarians.

Those who choose to champion the barbarians are without ethics or morals.

Does Israel do wrong? Yes. ... (Below threshold)
steve miller:

Does Israel do wrong? Yes. No one argues that.

Do the residents of Gaza do right? Yes. No one argues that.

But firing missiles day after day into Israel is *wrong*. No one argues that.

Israel going after Hamas after Hamas has fired missiles into Israel day after day - is that wrong or right? I say it's right, because Israel is merely trying to defend its citizens.

Here's a shocking newsflash: if the residents of Gaza stop firing missiles into Israel, Israel won't be going into Gaza to clear out Hamas murderers.

Gaza would do well to work with Egypt to open the border between Gaza and Egypt. At some point, Gaza should realize that Israel is not going to go away.

Perhaps Gaza can wheedle some money out of their Arab brothers to rebuild those greenhouses they themselves destroyed.

"Well, my challenge was ... (Below threshold)

"Well, my challenge was more about not including Israel as being in the wrong as well."

If you had read more of what Jay has said to say about the Palestinian/Israeli issue you would know better. You basically challenged him because he doesn't post a lengthy disclaimer about Israel before he says anything about the Palestinians.

"We are looking at the results of a long and brutal conflict, and at this point both sides have made their fair share of unjustified attacks and transgressions."

"Their fair share" - what does that mean? You've used that term twice now. Is this some sort of back-door equivalence game you're playing with words that grants you the option of denying that you are indeed doing just that? Because you still seem to be loathe to admit later that those shades of gray don't change much when the entire history is taken into consideration. I mean, you want the entire history of the conflict to be taken into consideration when making determinations about rightness and wrongness, or shades of gray as it were, but then you want to pick and choose which incidents are different and should be focused on to bolster your "fair share" argument. If during any given time frame Israelis have been in the "black" once and Palestinians have been in the "black" four times, are you implying they are equally culpable since they both made mistakes? is that a "fair share"? And what criteria determines that?

You're also being dishonest when calling Jay on the issue of destroying Palestinian homes by saying that - Well, not *ALL* of them were justified. Even though Jay clearly said, "Most often, it's because those "homes" are being used for terrorist attacks."

I can understand someone not wanting to "take sides" out of ignorance of the issue (and I don't mean that derogatorily). But I can't understand why someone would continue to argue a point they simply can't justify.

For such a complicated issue, you sure are taking special pains to make it appear simple.

..of course you would side ... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

..of course you would side with Israel, and only see things from the Israeli viewpoint. This is a given, and can be blamed by the bias of the American media that has ingrained in some Americans that "state terrorism" is okay against indigenous populations who resist it. Are you familar with any of the Israeli human right organizations such as B'tselem, Gush Shalom, or Peace Now?? These organizations tell it like it is, and pull no punches. Let's not forget one vital point, that no matter how misleading your hate may be that "occupation drives resistance" Any population under forced military occupation, collective punishment, and subjugation will resist. Remember when the British attempted to occupy America?? I pity people like you who are unable to see the premeditated racist policies that Israel forces upon its Arab population, and of course against the Palestinian people. Israel is a theocracy that veils itself as a democracy. No democracy acts as Israel does, but that is something easily forgotten by "pro state terrorism enthusiasts". Your vile prose was one that could have been written by war crimianals like Ariel Sharon, or Menachem Begin. Until you have walked in the shoes of the oppressed, commentary such as yours can be chalked up as being a cheap Zionist propaganda exploit.

A couple of alternatives:</... (Below threshold)
sshiell:

A couple of alternatives:

First: The Palestinians unilaterally renounce violence in all forms, acknowledge Israels right to exist, and lay down their arms. Result: the war is over. Palestine becomes a nation with garuntees by Israel.

Second: Israel unilaterally renounce violence in all forms, acknowledge the Palestinian right to exist, and lay down their arms. Result: Within 6 months, every Israeli Jew is dead.

Can anyone look at the tow list alternatives and believe there can be any other results?

Ahh, Nathan Goldstein, soun... (Below threshold)
GianiD:

Ahh, Nathan Goldstein, sounding more like Ahmed Hussein Ali.

If Palestinians, etc would stop the bombings, they wouldnt get spanked so often.

You sound like the boy who pokes the beehive, and cries when he got sting. Any chance you have relatives that were teasing big cats in San Fran lately?

There is a bigot in ... (Below threshold)
sshiell:

There is a bigot in this discussion and he goes by the handle of Nathan Goldstein.

The problem is and has been... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

The problem is and has been the muslims and their intractable hatred of all things non-islam. Erase the hatred of their death-worshipping cult, and they would have no conflict with gentile or jew. World-wide, violence is the trade and tradition of islam. Islam is evil.

On one side of a man made l... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

On one side of a man made line, there's vibrant economy.
On the other side of a man made line, there's violence and chaos.

There's no significant distinction in the make up of the land on either side of the line so why the difference ? (rhetorical) The answer to this question is the answer to the root of the problem IMO.

We're still waiting for Pal... (Below threshold)
Socratease:

We're still waiting for Palestinians to love their children more than they hate the Jews. Anybody remember the big sewage flood they had in Gaza that killed 5? This was a predicted event, with the sewage treatment reservoir (built by international aid agencies) at 200% of its capacity. Palestinians had been given the pipes to move the excess sewage elsewhere, but they instead used them as rocket casings to kill more Israelis.

Wow! Nathan isn't even know... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Wow! Nathan isn't even knowledgeable about our own history. Britain did not occupy america, we were all British at that time. The inequity of the tax burder made us rebel. Come on Nathan, read a little. ww

Outstanding post, Jay! You... (Below threshold)
Kilroy:

Outstanding post, Jay! You have eloquently described the entire Israeli/Palestinian situation. I couldn't agree more. I'm trying to remember the name of the last Israeli suicide bomber with no luck.

Jay,I'd say tha... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Jay,

I'd say that Israel mostly does uphold their own standards. Conversely, the Palestinians, apparently, have none whatsoever. So, I guess, technically, that makes them "better?"

I would say instead that Israel seems to uphold their standards selectively. This is speaking about the state-system of Israel, which in itself is hardly a singular entity--meaning that there are internal differences.

The problem with "the Palestinians" is that there are multiple groups that claim to speak for them, and act for them, as a whole. But I would not argue that Palestinian people, on the whole, have no standards or morals. This is where you are overstating and overgeneralizing, IMO. The complex part is that we have to separate out all the groups, and we can't forget that political parties do not necessarily act according to the will of their constituents (the same can be said when talking about Israel, or here in the USA for that matter).

Overall, I think that your assertion about the moral standards of the Palestinians is false--I would not assume that that are all barbarians, as a few commenters here seem to be doing.

A great deal is lost when such claims are made.

But then I would be interested to know where you get your conclusions from, and how you have formulated your opinions about this. Have you read detailed sociological accounts of Palestinian people, or are you assessing them based upon what certain groups are doing?

And I'm not trying to be difficult...just trying to see where you're coming from and how you're getting there.

ryan a: ... (Below threshold)
Maggie:

ryan a:


Nice you throw in a remark about the Great Satan United States.

Oyster:If you h... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Oyster:

If you had read more of what Jay has said to say about the Palestinian/Israeli issue you would know better. You basically challenged him because he doesn't post a lengthy disclaimer about Israel before he says anything about the Palestinians.

I wrote a response to what he wrote. And I only addressed him based upon that. That's called sticking to the argument. Of course, Jay can always come in and clarify himself, which he seems perfectly capable of doing.

"Their fair share" - what does that mean? You've used that term twice now. Is this some sort of back-door equivalence game you're playing with words that grants you the option of denying that you are indeed doing just that?

What this refers to are the acts that have been committed historically by the nation-state of Israel, that I disagree with. For example, the Palestinian citizens of Israel, who are purportedly a PART of the democratic system of the state, have been systematically excluded from the rights and freedoms they deserve. There is a long history of this, and I do not think it is something that should be cast aside or dismissed.

There is no back door equivalence. There are clear historical issues and events that I find unjust--and each side has played its part.

This is not meant to be some mathematical comparison of one versus another. I just do not think that either side is guilt free.

Because you still seem to be loathe to admit later that those shades of gray don't change much when the entire history is taken into consideration.

Not what I meant to say. Those so-called shades of gray are always changing--and we can't just pretend that it's one big static picture we are looking at. Over the course of history each side has played its different part, and it's not as if we can come up with some all-encompassing rating at the end. We have to look at each event in detail and in context, and then look at the history. It's anything but simple, and that's why this kind thing is so difficult to resolve.

I mean, you want the entire history of the conflict to be taken into consideration when making determinations about rightness and wrongness, or shades of gray as it were, but then you want to pick and choose which incidents are different and should be focused on to bolster your "fair share" argument.

Well, I tend to think that historical context is pretty important, ya. It's not that I'm trying to pick and choose incidents to bolster my case...it's that I have read a good amount of the history of each side, and I have come to the conclusion that there are problems with the ways EACH has acted--to me it seems like both sides have committed injustices, if we look at the whole thing from 1948 to the present.

And then today I think that there are similar complexities--this is not to say that each and every injustice can be weighed against one another on some kind of scale. They're contextual, and we have to look at each in detail. In the end, if you ask me if a Palestinian suicide bomber has committed a crime that deserves condemnation, I am going to say hell yes. But that does not mean that I automatically assume, then, that the Israelis hold any clear moral position.

What I think is that this has basically been an extended war, and that many innocent people, both Israeli and Palestinian, have been caught in the midst.

You're also being dishonest when calling Jay on the issue of destroying Palestinian homes by saying that - Well, not *ALL* of them were justified. Even though Jay clearly said, "Most often, it's because those "homes" are being used for terrorist attacks."

Ok, you got me there. I should have written "most" instead of "all."

I am being completely honest in saying that I do not know if it is MOST, or if the number is actually in the minority--hence the reason why I asked for sources. I do readily admit that I should have used the word 'most' as he did. That was a mistake, period. But my point was that I really do not know what the real numbers are, what the facts are about this, and was asking Jay about his sources. Do you know? Because I have never read a report that compares the relative destruction of Palestinian houses, and what percentage was legitimate vs illegitimate. Feel free to send the info my way if you have it.

I can understand someone not wanting to "take sides" out of ignorance of the issue (and I don't mean that derogatorily). But I can't understand why someone would continue to argue a point they simply can't justify.

I feel that I can completely justify my argument that the state of Israel shares a large part of the responsibility for this mess. Note that I did not write that they share ALL of it, but they have played their role.

And the last thing I'm looking to do is turn this whole thing into an oversimplified and polemic discussion. That's why I take the time to read what you, Jay, and others are writing. And I might be stating my arguments, but that does not mean that I do not listen or respect other points of view.


"But then I would be int... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"But then I would be interested to know where you get your conclusions from, and how you have formulated your opinions about this. Have you read detailed sociological accounts of Palestinian people, or are you assessing them based upon what certain groups are doing?

And I'm not trying to be difficult...just trying to see where you're coming from and how you're getting there."

In other words - if you ain't a sociologist, who has studied massive amounts of the PROPER literature, your opinion doesn't mean squat.

Ryan A - for what it's worth, I agree with Jay Tea. There's something massively, terribly dysfunctional about a society which emphasizes self-destructive behavior over anything else. And to point out that not ALL Palestinians do this hardly negates the point that the main cultural base of Palestinian society is the devotion to the destruction of Israel.

And you know something? At one time I was somewhat sympathetic to the Palestinian cause - but over the last 30 years have watched them do everything they possibly could to make sure they DIDN'T get what they wanted. Arafat screwed 'em over, their neighbors have screwed them over - they're mired in a self-destructive hole and determined to dig it deeper... and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

Sorry - but they've pretty much renounced the label of a 'civilized people'. When they start acting civilized, then maybe I'll change my mind. (Not like it really matters in the grand scheme of things...) But until then? They're barbarians, determined to destroy what they cannot have.

"It's not as if the Palesti... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

"It's not as if the Palestinian people were just sitting around in 1948 and simply CHOSE to start this whole thing up. "

Yes. They did.

The British offered to divide the mandate into roughly equal Jewish and Arab parts. The Jews embraced the plan while the Palestinian Arabs, and their Arab League rejected the proposal. Israel declared independence, the Arab League declared war and Israel has been fighting for survival ever since.

When you see proud Palestinian parents parading their toddlers around dressed as suicide bombers and gunmen you know that society has problems. Yes I am using generalities because their society *is* at fault. Not only should those parents be condemned but the bystanders standing by watching also. It takes a village right? A society that regularly trains it's young to war on their neighbor shouldn't be allowed to sup at the table with the rest of the civilized world.

And yes - I condemn all of them. Every single Palestinian. At least until I see more of them banding together to shrug off the fascist leadership they have elected to represent them. Forgive me if I don't hold my breath. The longer the West mollycoddles them the longer they will pout like the children they are.

Sure Israel has mistakenly killed civilians. The difference is they weren't the target whereas every single rocket launched, every single Pally bullet fired, every IED exploded, is intended to terrorize and kill Israelis. Intent is everything.

Palestine is the only state that has come into existence by sheer gratis. Arabs aren't native to the region. They arrived in 615. The Jews were there much earlier. Heck - Palestine is modern for the Filistine or more commonly Philistine. They renamed the region after a regional enemy of the Jews - the Philistines. Philistines aren't Arab. They were Greek.

Man -- took too long .. JLawson said it better.

bah .."They rename... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

bah ..

"They renamed .."

The 'They' is the Romans.

Well, I tend to t... (Below threshold)
Maggie:
Well, I tend to think that historical context is pretty important, ya. It's not that I'm trying to pick and choose incidents to bolster my case...it's that I have read a good amount of the history of each side, and I have come to the conclusion that there are problems with the ways EACH has acted--to me it seems like both sides have committed injustices, if we look at the whole thing from 1948 to the present.

Your sources?

GianiD, and sshiell ..ahh ... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

GianiD, and sshiell ..ahh yes, the voices of the Israeli apologists. Israel is a state that has insitigated terror since May 14, 1948 when it declared itself a state. From the begining the Zionists saw the Palestinian people being a people they would never negotiate with, or have peace with. Why do you think that the Stern, and Irgun terrorist gangs were formed?? To remove the indigenous people of the land by force. Zionists are a pretty nefarious bunch to say the least. If they would have attempted to settle in peace, and see the Palestinians as a partner, a whole lot of lives could have been saved. Israel today is a state dominated by a government of racist war criminals who "want" nothing more than the forced expulsion of the Palestinian people, but this will never happen, because the world body see's the state of Israel for what it has become, but will not be stated out loud..A pariah state.

Hey sshiell , please tell t... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

Hey sshiell , please tell this board all about the "Lavon Affair"...or the various terror exploits of the Mossad, and Shin Beit...please enlighten Us!

"Why do you think that the ... (Below threshold)
Dan Irving:

"Why do you think that the Stern, and Irgun terrorist gangs were formed??"

That's like blaming Ireland for the IRA.

The difference is that the World Zionist Conference condemned Irgun and it's wonton barbarity. You don't see any such rhetoric coming out of the Arab world against Hamas or the PLO.

". Israel today is a state dominated by a government of racist war criminals who "want" nothing more than the forced expulsion of the Palestinian people"

Oh! That's why they unilaterally vacated Gaza - it's all a nefarious plot by the j00s!

"because the world body see's the state of Israel for what it has become, but will not be stated out loud..A pariah state."

Is that why Israel ranks 44th in the world in terms of GDP (International Monetary Fund ranking)? Man those j00s are really devious.

Lavon Affair? LOL. You wa... (Below threshold)
sshiell:

Lavon Affair? LOL. You want to discuss something that happened over 50 years ago to rationale your bigotry?

Has anyone here stated that Israel is without sin? NO! Has anyone here stated that Israel has not made mistakes? NO! But you take mistakes and multiply them into a Zionist conspiracy. Before you tell me to remove the splinter from my own eye, deal with the BEAM that is stuck in your own.

Do you want to tell me the name of the last Israeli Suicide Bomber?

Tell me why Palestinian suicide bombers target civilians, women and children and not military targets?

Tell me the military targets the rockets from Gaza are directed at?

You can't answer any of these questions without revealing yourself to be the bigot you are. So i will answer them for you. There have been no Israeli suicide bombers - because the Israelis value life over death. Paletinian suicide bomber target women and children because they are cowards - they aren't good enough to get close to a military target. The rockets from Gaza are directed at civilian targets for the same reason - the Palestinians are cowards.

Prove your point that we are wrong - I posed two alternatives in #12? The Palestinians disarm and recognize Israel - the war is over. Israel disarms - and all Israelis are dead. Go ahead and refute it. I'll wait.

Arafat came right out and s... (Below threshold)

Arafat came right out and said that the Palestinians sole goal was the eradication of Israel and that any peace accord is merely buying time to achieve the ultimate goal. Nothing has changed as far as I can see.

Maggie:Here are so... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Maggie:

Here are some of the books that I have at home and have read through recently. Feel free to suggest others.

The Middle East

-Bernard Lewis


The Making of the Modern Middle East

-Bernard Lewis

From Oslo to Iraq and the Road Map

-Edward Said

Coffins of our Shoulders

-Rabbinowitz and Abu-Baker (this book is the most recent read, and one of the more interesting because it was written from two perspectives).

The Modern Middle East: A Political History Since the First World War

-Mehran Kamvara

They cover the whole topic to differing degrees, and by different means. There are, of course, a ton more books to read about this--and plenty of other topics. Admittedly, I can definitely read more to get a better understanding of the multiple sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Feel free to offer suggestions for further reading.

JLawson:In othe... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

JLawson:

In other words - if you ain't a sociologist, who has studied massive amounts of the PROPER literature, your opinion doesn't mean squat.

Are you serious? Usually you don't pull crap like this, do you? That was not what I was saying at all, and it's too bad that you interpreted it that way.

I'm not on here saying that others' opinions don't matter, NOT AT ALL. I can disagree with Jay and others, while still respecting their views/positions. Can you do the same?

If people argue another side, then I want to know what they have been reading--whether anthropological, historical, sociological, documentary, historical, news reporting, commentary, or whatever. I like to read what people find convincing and interesting in order to formulate what i think.

There are all kinds of sources of information, and I think it's pretty fair to ask what people are reading. It's called having an open mind--and I think it's a good thing.

JLawson:And you... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

JLawson:

And you know something? At one time I was somewhat sympathetic to the Palestinian cause - but over the last 30 years have watched them do everything they possibly could to make sure they DIDN'T get what they wanted. Arafat screwed 'em over, their neighbors have screwed them over - they're mired in a self-destructive hole and determined to dig it deeper... and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

Well, I understand what you're saying here. And I don't think that you need to feel sorrow for them, per se, but maybe consider the possibility that many Palestinians have indeed been given the short end of the stick, and have been caught in between asinine leadership and dispossession.

I think there are plenty of reasons to condemn certain Palestinian actions. But for me, this still does not cause me to put them all in the same category...just as I never thought it made any sense to judge all Iraqis based upon what Saddam did in their name.

There are possibilities in the details, that's what I think. If we assume that they are all evil, well, where does that really get us? What if they are not?

Dan:The British... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Dan:

The British offered to divide the mandate into roughly equal Jewish and Arab parts. The Jews embraced the plan while the Palestinian Arabs, and their Arab League rejected the proposal.

Ya, and it was a real sweet offer wasn't it? All those people had to do was leave many of their lands so that the newcomers could establish a state. It was hardly a fair situation, in my opinion. Yes, there was a claim to be made by the returning Jewish people, to an extent. But the Palestinians had a clear claim as well, and should not have been swept aside as they were (and displaced). That was a lot of people to remove, and it's no surprise that decades of conflict ensued.

And yes - I condemn all of them. Every single Palestinian. At least until I see more of them banding together to shrug off the fascist leadership they have elected to represent them. Forgive me if I don't hold my breath. The longer the West mollycoddles them the longer they will pout like the children they are.

Well, I refuse to condemn them all because I think that's unjust. But we can disagree there. Just as I do not think that every citizen of iraq should have been blamed for what Hussein was doing, I do not think that every Palestinian should be blamed for what Hamas and other orgs. do. The same goes for the state of Israel--by no means do I think that every Israeli citizen is culpable for the unjust deeds of their state.

That kind of thinking makes no sense to me.

Palestine is the only state that has come into existence by sheer gratis. Arabs aren't native to the region. They arrived in 615. The Jews were there much earlier. Heck - Palestine is modern for the Filistine or more commonly Philistine. They renamed the region after a regional enemy of the Jews - the Philistines. Philistines aren't Arab. They were Greek.

Ah, I see. So some 1400 years of occupation is worthless? Really? Have you thought that out? (Note: the Americas were not substantially occupied by Europeans until after 1492. You're treading some thin ice if you think that a 1400 year occupation means nothing).

The Palestinian people had a pretty clear claim to the lands they were living on, IMO.

I think this thread has sho... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

I think this thread has shown a sad example of moral equivalency I have seen. It is simply the same "perfection fallacy" that the left has been consistently using to make excuse for the communists and now for the terrorists. If the Palestinians stop shelling rockets into Israel and recognize Israel 's right to exist, and the Is is still attacking them, then I can see the point. Let me go back to the same example: North Korea is no different from America because both are not perfect. Basically that 's the liberal justification of Hamas terrorism.

If the leadership is asinine, why did they vote for Hamas? Is it better for Israel just to come in and wipe out Hamas and teach them about democracy? Let 's have some intellectual honesty here.


Israel today is a state dom... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Israel today is a state dominated by a government of racist war criminals who "want" nothing more than the forced expulsion of the Palestinian people, but this will never happen, because the world body see's the state of Israel for what it has become, but will not be stated out loud..A pariah state.
-------------------------------------
This is a despicable anti-semitic lie. Arabs can have a prosperous life in Israel. They can be even elected to be in the Knesset.

Using this logic, the anti-Israel liberals want nothing more than the second Holocaust and the wiping off the country of Israel from the map.

LoveAmerica..I am curious w... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

LoveAmerica..I am curious why you are completely oblivious to the illegal occupation, settlements, and the collective punishment of the Palestinian people??? I guess if you wish to ignore such vile injustices then you proprabaly feel this way about ALL indigenous people resisting occupation. By the way Arabs in Israel are not allowed to buy, or even lease land inside of Israel. I do wish more Americans would educate themseleves about what is really happening, but this would be a stech for a nation that supports such vile behavior. There is nothing anti-semetic about speaking out against racism, and state sponsered terror, but it is downright sick to turn a blind eye to the obvious.

Nathan, The Jews we... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Nathan,
The Jews were forced out of their homeland by the Romans as pointed out by other people already. They were given a country and legally approved by the United Nations unless you are saying that United Nations is a useless organization. The Palestinians have their own countries now. I can see the Arabs get affirmative action treatment in Is universities. They even have members in Knesset. Can the Jews be safe anywhere in the any Arab country much less the West Bank or Gaza.

Why are you ignoring the explicit genocidal intention and the clear action of terrorism against the Is women/children? Why are you trying to make excuse for genocidal actions against Is? Sorry that is anti-semitic in my book.

The Palestinian people have their own land now. WHy do they want live in Israel since they hate the Israelites so much and want to wipe them off the map? You cannot have the cake and eat it too. It is intellectual dishonesty in my book. And this one-sided moral equivalency to excuse the second holocaus is despicable also.

An interesting thread here.... (Below threshold)
boqueronman:

An interesting thread here. But the discussion usually, as it does here, tails off into a picking of nits over a period of thousands of years. The only way I can get my arms around it is to look at the last 100 years or so Jewish-Arab occupation of Palestine.

The Jewish population of Palestine comes from 3 sources: those already living in the area before and during WWII, those refugees leaving anti-Semitic Europe, and the refugees escaping from genocidal treatment of Jews in neighboring Arab states after 1948.

A dispassionate glance at the historical record will show a number of interesting facts. Over 1 million Arabs live, work, vote, represent and worship freely in Israel right now. How many Jews remain in Arab lands and are given equal rights? If my memory is correct, the population of Baghdad o/a 1948 was one-third Jewish. Where are they now?

Approximately 700,000 Jews have emigrated from Arab lands to Israel. What kind of treatment have they received there? Approximately an equal number of Palestinian Arabs emigrated - the Arab states that attacked Israel in 1948 encouraged them to clear the area for military operations - to Jordan, Lebanon, etc. How have these "refugees" been treated in these countries?

Finally, and most importantly, what is the nature of the public dialogue regarding the goals of Jewish-Arab relations within each community? The non-Israeli Palestinian Arabs use their newspapers, TV, politics, and mosque (not churches, only in mosques) to cry out unremittingly for the death and destruction of the Jews. Is this fanaticism reflected in the same sources within Israel toward the Arabs?

The Arab resistance to Jewish habitation of a tiny segment of the Middle East is beyond irrational. Perhaps the only way it can be resolved is for a level of death and destruction within the Arab community, hopefully not Israel also, that rivals WWII, which finally purged the fanatical militarism from German and Japanese cultures. Short of that, it will be a long and grinding war.

Lavon Affair? LOL. You want... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

Lavon Affair? LOL. You want to discuss something that happened over 50 years ago to rationale your bigotry? I knew you could'nt answer, because your sect finds justification for all of Israel's actions, no matter how illegal, and inhumane they may be..you are as transparent as you are shallow

Has anyone here stated that Israel is without sin? NO! Tell me some sins then..please???Has anyone here stated that Israel has not made mistakes? NO! But you take mistakes and multiply them into a Zionist conspiracy.Where is the Zionist conspiracy that you state? I am merely pointing out factual events on the ground in the occupied territories. Before you tell me to remove the splinter from my own eye, deal with the BEAM that is stuck in your own. The reason you argue from a place of sheer weakness is because you deny the obvious, ans thus feel the need to slander those who speak the truth

Do you want to tell me the name of the last Israeli Suicide Bomber? I have no idea, I find suicide bombings to be aborrent, and self defeating, but please give me the name of the IDF officers murdering children with impunity..and because they can...some democracy ehh babe??

Tell me why Palestinian suicide bombers target civilians, women and children and not military targets? I think that suicide bombers are driven by desperation, and they see their own populace being targeted by the IDF, and reason that they will return the same.

Tell me the military targets the rockets from Gaza are directed at? Illegal settlements, and please tell me why the Gaza power plant was destroyed, or hwy the IAF use one tone bombs on apartment buildings filled with people, or why the IAF uses cluster bombs in civilian area's??? They do it because they can friend, they do not consider a Palestinian life to be worthy of anything, and Israel's military justice amounts to a smack on the wrists.

You can't answer any of these questions without revealing yourself to be the bigot you are. I am more than happy to expose "state terror enthusiasts at every turn. You are no better than some yoke in the KKK. So i will answer them for you. There have been no Israeli suicide bombers - because the Israelis value life over death. Paletinian suicide bomber target women and children because they are cowards - they aren't good enough to get close to a military target. The rockets from Gaza are directed at civilian targets for the same reason - the Palestinians are cowards. Like I said before, people of your Zionist sect act, and propegate like Nazis. You have no shame, and you have no clue about how hiddeous your agenda really it.

Prove your point that we are wrong - I posed two alternatives in #12? The Palestinians disarm and recognize Israel - the war is over. Israel disarms - and all Israelis are dead. Go ahead and refute it. I'll wait. Who is asking Israel to disarm?? The world is asking Israel to abandon all ilegal settlements, stop all avenues of the illegal military occupation, and allow for a free, and soveriegn Palestinain state. Israel deserves to live in peace, and all of my friends in Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem agree....how sad it is that all you want is more of the same..TSK TSK TSK....

LoveAmerica...if you are re... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

LoveAmerica...if you are refering to biblical fantasy then I guess a tiny bit of your logic makes sense, but the bible is FANTASY. Israel illegally occupies the West Bank, Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem. None of these territories were given to Israel,and with the countless UN resolutions demanding Israel to cease, and assist your argument turns upside down. Why do you think their is a resistance in the first place?? Your brilliant with the blame game, but your bigotry is all too familar in America. You care nothing about the injustices the Palestinians have suffered, but poor Israel...armed to the teeth, and givern three billion dollars of taxpayer money..and for what??How does a basically unarmed population enact a genocide against a nuclear armed country in their backyard???Please..please get educated, and for once walk in the shoes of those being occupied. Too many uninformed Americans are all too glib with their one-sided rationals that are considered completely irrational by the rest of the world.

if you are refering to bibl... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

if you are refering to biblical fantasy
----------------------------------
So much for your intellectual honesty. Roman destruction of Jerusalem was a historical fact.

You basically argue for the destruction of the state of Israel and trying to excuse the second holocaust. That 's anti-semitic bigotry at its worst. The Palestinians have their own land now. Noone stops the Arabs from moving to other Arab countries. If Israel is so bad for the Arab minorities, they can move to any other Arab country they want.

Be honest and admit that you are not satisfied until the state of Israel is destroyed and you are comfortable with blowing up Is women and children to accomplish that goal. That 's despicable in my book.


LAI: Let me go ... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

LAI:

Let me go back to the same example: North Korea is no different from America because both are not perfect. Basically that 's the liberal justification of Hamas terrorism.

There is no justification for Hamas terrorism. There is no justification for the killing of civilians. It's not something that can just be explained away.

But this also applies elsewhere.

Now, we can talk about the historical events and details that have lead up to, and caused, such actions--but that is different than JUSTIFYING them. To explain something, or to try to understand it is not the same as justifying it.

And the problem with your "perfection" analogy is this: to compare the Israelis and the Palestinians, and to recognize the transgressions of each, is different than saying that they are 'no different.' There are differences. You are making HUGE assumptions and leaps of logic. See if you can avoid that.

Ryan, I think it is... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Ryan,
I think it is cheap to try to blame both sides. Reasonable people would expect the Palestians to start building a country on the land they have now. The difference between Is and Hamas is huge enough for us to see. So any attempt to make moral equivalency is at best naive.

BTW, I am waiting for the u... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

BTW, I am waiting for the unequivocal condemnation of Hamas hiding in Palestian population to shell rockets at Israel.

LAI:If Israel i... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

LAI:

If Israel is so bad for the Arab minorities, they can move to any other Arab country they want.

Maybe because they have an equal right to be there. Maybe because democracy is supposed to be all about equal rights.

Maybe because they have an ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Maybe because they have an equal right to be there. Maybe because democracy is supposed to be all about equal rights.
------------------------------------
Just an illustration of hypocrisy: they enjoy the freedom and prosperity of the Israel society while constantly complaining and calling for the destruction of that country. Intellectual honest people would have moved to another country unless their purpose is to destroy the country that gives them freedom. Enough with this cheap excuse for me.
Tell me where the Jews can live safely in any Arab country now? Let 's be intellectually honest here.

LAI:I think it ... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

LAI:

I think it is cheap to try to blame both sides. Reasonable people would expect the Palestians to start building a country on the land they have now. The difference between Is and Hamas is huge enough for us to see. So any attempt to make moral equivalency is at best naive.

Well, I think it's 'cheap' to pretend that only one side is responsible for this 60 something year conflict. Talk about oversimplifying and being naive.

Do you acknowledge the difference between 'Hamas' and 'the Palestnians' or do you lump them all into one big group?

Do you acknowledge the diff... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Do you acknowledge the difference between 'Hamas' and 'the Palestnians' or do you lump them all into one big group?
-------------------------------------
Why did they vote for Hamas in the first place? If you want to distinguish, then is it better for Israel to come in and destroy Hamas for the Palestinians. You liberals should be all for that, right? Can we be intellectually honest here?

LAI:Just an ill... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

LAI:

Just an illustration of hypocrisy: they enjoy the freedom and prosperity of the Israel society while constantly complaining and calling for the destruction of that country.

You are arguing that the Palestinian citizenry of Israel has an equal political and social position to every other citizen in Israel? What have you read that leads you to this conclusion?

Intellectual honest people would have moved to another country unless their purpose is to destroy the country that gives them freedom. Enough with this cheap excuse for me.

What if their purpose is to gain equal rights and respect in the lands they have a claim to?

Tell me where the Jews can live safely in any Arab country now? Let 's be intellectually honest here.

Tell me when you can stay on topic.

Ryan, I have stayed... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Ryan,
I have stayed on topic. The Arabs in general have prefential treatment in college admission. They have elected leaders in the Knesset. The Jews will be killed or tortured in Gaza. Can you see the difference and stay on topic? Again, is it a good thing for Israel to come in and destroy Hamas for the Palestinian people? You should cheer Israel on since the peace-loving Palestinian people would really like to see that in any case. Why liberals want to keep Hamas around? BTW, Palestinians have their own land now, why bother to live with the Jews you hate so much? They can go to the West Bank and Gaza to build up the economy there in any case.

LAI:Why did the... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

LAI:

Why did they vote for Hamas in the first place? If you want to distinguish, then is it better for Israel to come in and destroy Hamas for the Palestinians. You liberals should be all for that, right? Can we be intellectually honest here?

Can you answer the actual question?

Do you differentiate between 'Hamas' and 'the Palestinians' as a whole?

Can you answer the actual q... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Can you answer the actual question?

Do you differentiate between 'Hamas' and 'the Palestinians' as a whole?
-------------------------------------
I answered your question. If the Palestinian don't like Hamas, why did they vote for them? I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they make a mistake. So now it is good for Israel to come in and destroy Hamas for the Palestinian people. Do you agree that this is a good thing as well? Can you answer that question?

Ryan -"Well, I ... (Below threshold)

Ryan -

"Well, I understand what you're saying here. And I don't think that you need to feel sorrow for them, per se, but maybe consider the possibility that many Palestinians have indeed been given the short end of the stick, and have been caught in between asinine leadership and dispossession."

Yeah, and when they had the chance to choose their leadership when Arafat became worm food, what'd they choose? The path of peace?

I think their communal psychology has become so warped and murderous that there is very little hope for them - and that's a damned shame. There's no way they can win. There's no possibility for a military victory, even with 'help' from Syria and Iran - the IDF is much more competent and better armed than they are. They are the consumate victims - they've convinced the world that everyone's beating up on THEM, as they lash out in anger and try to do the worst possible to their enemies.

They need a Martin Luther King type that could make peace with Isreal - but they'd kill him in a heartbeat for daring to suggest it. I literally see pretty much no hope for them.

I answered your question... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

I answered your question. If the Palestinian don't like Hamas, why did they vote for them?

You know, that's not something I can explain. I do know that there is definitely plenty of internal conflict and dissent, between Fatah and Hamas.

But then, it's often difficult to understand how MANY leaders and political parties get into power. I certainly do not assume that they always reflect the will of 'their' people, and Hamas is no different.

So now it is good for Israel to come in and destroy Hamas for the Palestinian people. Do you agree that this is a good thing as well? Can you answer that question?

Do you want a real answer? Then, it would probably not work, politically, if Israel did that. Hamas is something that the Palestinians themselves have to change and cast off. If Israel does it, it will probably backfire. That's what I think.

And Ryan - it may not be <i... (Below threshold)

And Ryan - it may not be all of them - but in this case the sins of the many who support and believe in the goals of Hamas reflect on them all. Their national identity now depends on destroying Israel, no matter what might happen to them in the process.

As a people they've destroyed their past, screwed up their present, have no future on the path they travel, and no hope for a different path. They do not create, they do not attempt to make their own lives better through education and upgrading their own infrastructure. If it weren't for the food, water and fuel that Israel provides, they'd be totally screwed - and they want to destroy the country that feeds them.

And then what? If Israel should disappear tomorrow - could the Palestinian people shake off their murderous predilictions, or would Fatah and Hamas start slaughtering each other for lack of anything better to target? Their psychology is predicated on death and destruction - remove one enemy and they'd find another.

Sucks to be them, indeed.

Do you want a real answer? ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Do you want a real answer? Then, it would probably not work, politically, if Israel did that. Hamas is something that the Palestinians themselves have to change and cast off. If Israel does it, it will probably backfire. That's what I think.
------------------------------------
This is why I think it is a cheap excuse. Basically Hamas is allowed to shell rockets into Israel city with immunity. For now, you are basically saying that you cannot distinguish between Hamas and Palestinians and Israel will have to continue to endure the terrorism against their women and children. THe Palestinians have to take responsibility for their actions. The Israel can come in destroying all the terrorists for the Palestinian people so that they can build their peace-loving country. If they continue to allow the terrorists to run their country, then Israel should come in and clean it up for them again. And reasonable and honest people in the West should support Israel in that effort instead of offering excuses for terrorism against their citizens.


JLawson:I get you.... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

JLawson:

I get you. And I agree that the whole victim and hatred thing isn't going to solve a damn thing.

Concessions will have to be made, and grievances will have to be put aside--or else, there will be continual war and murder.

Since 2000 things have been worse, and this younger generation has been a great deal more violent and radical. To what end?

It's kinda like the problem that people faced in Rwanda after what happened there. People literally had to find a way to move forward.

They need a Martin Luther King type that could make peace with Isreal - but they'd kill him in a heartbeat for daring to suggest it. I literally see pretty much no hope for them

Seems like those types always get killed. There is a lot of infighting among the Palestinians now, right? Between Fatah and Hamas? They do need someone who will bring them to the table, but I think that too many people are angry and incredibly irrational right now.

Never ending.

think that too many people... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

think that too many people are angry and incredibly irrational right now.

Never ending.
-------------------------------------
Just like in WW2, too many people were angry and incredibly irrational. But we didn't try to excuse the Holocaust and we tried to stop it even at great cost. And it turned out to be good thing for the German, Italian, and Japanese people. So RATIONAL people should support Israel to destroy Hamas not only for their own women/children but also for the Palestinian people.

LoveAmerica...Have you ever... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

LoveAmerica...Have you ever lived under a forced military occupation? have you ever had your home bulldozed because the occupier wanted your land?? I do not expect honesty from you, because your views are tanamount to the how the Nazis percieved the Jews...third rate people who deserve no rights at all.. By the way I am Jewish, and proud to be, but there is a very big difference between being a Jew, and being a Zionist..do you know what they are?? The Palestinians lived with Jews in a moderate peace before the state of Israel was granted. I think Israel has every right to exist on the land that was given to it. Anything beyond that is theft. You never did answer my question..why is their a resistance?? Israel created Hamas...do you know why?? Please get back to me with some relevant answers. All of your doubelespeak will be taken as that you have no clue about the subject period

Nathan, I lived und... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Nathan,
I lived under a communist regime. You are talking about re-education camps (eg labor camps), totalitarian control of your life. I don't think you really know what you are talking about. You simply spout the usual leftist talking points. You blithely ignored the many wars that the Arab has waged to destroy the nation of Israel. I can show you how the Arabs get preferential treatment and can hold elected office in Israel. You cannot show me even an example of the Jews who can live a normal life in an Arab country. You don't even have the courage to condemn indiscriminate terrorist attacks against women/children. There are many rich Arab countries in the ME now. All these can easily help the Palestinians financially if they want to. Get back to me when you can face these facts with intellecual honesty.

why is their a resistance??... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

why is their a resistance??
------------------------------
"Resistance" is the dishonest propaganda term for the wars to destroy the Jews in the ME. That 's my answer for you. They want the second holocaust to wipe Israel off the map. That 's Hamas 's explicit charter and Iran as well. That 's the reason for the "resistance" to the existence of the Jews in the Middle East.

Ryan - "Concess... (Below threshold)

Ryan -

"Concessions will have to be made, and grievances will have to be put aside--or else, there will be continual war and murder."

Ah, but WHO is supposed to make the concessions? Israel? They've seen how well THAT works out? Fatah? Hamas? Nope - you won't see concessions from THEM, or at least nothing that'll actually be acted upon.

It'd almost be comical, if it weren't so tragic. Israel and Hamas/Fatah both make concessions, but only Israel is actually held to them. The Palestinans can ignore them, and Israel is criticised for even suggesting that the Palestinians hold up their end of the bargain. And if someone else finally realizes the Palestinians aren't holding their end up - all they need to do is lob a few dozen missiles, wait for Israel to respond, and they don't have to keep the bargain!

Shakespear would have loved it as a scenario.

Negotiations work only when both sides negotiate in good faith. And sadly, that's lacking in the ME.

..Dan Irving..thanks for yo... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

..Dan Irving..thanks for your response. Gaza's borders, seaports, airspace, have always been under occupation, even after the illegal settlement of Netzarim was removed, meaning that Gaza is still under a forced military occupation. The world zionist conference has not denounced the core issue..illegal settlements, illegal occupation of the Palestinain territories, and collective punishment?? Why should Arab groups denounce the right for Palestinians to resist??I mean i will agree that suicide bombings, and rockets are aborrhent, and criminal, but so are bulldozing Palestinian homes on Palestinian land, or the slap on the wrists that IDF soldiers get when they have murdered innocent Palestinain citizens. Why is it that Israel has no rule of justice in the territories? They kill Palestinains without any proof of them being militants...they just go on a whim of sorts..no actual proof, but this is how Israeli justice work's, and one wonders why the resistance fires rockets? Until Israel, and its supporters look at the real problems, they will remain forever ignorant about how to solve the crisis.

LoveAmerica...Resistance i... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

LoveAmerica...Resistance is the justified right of any populace under a forced military occupation, and please..enough with the "second holocaust" propaganda. You talk about this second holocaust like you can hardly wait for it to occur...If you really cared about the well being of Israel you would denounce what every Israeli human rights organization denounces..."the occupation, subjugation, and collective punishment of the Palestinain people is a war crime, and puts Israel in danger" I think you are a bit self serving... you would rather side with state terror than demand peace..now how telling is that!!

Nathan, Why did the... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Nathan,
Why did they attack Israel so many times? Israel returned the land to Egypt once they agree to live in peace with Israel. The Palestinian have their land now. They can start building on it. Why continue to make excuse for their genocidal intent? If Hamas stopped blowing up or shelling women/children and Israel still comes in and destroys the buildings, then you have a point. You cannot even bring yourself to condemn Hamas for hiding in civilian area to attack Is women/children.

Stop trying to excuse the indiscriminate attack to wipe out the Jewish people.

BTW, Nathan, trying to make... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

BTW, Nathan, trying to make moral equivalency between blowing up women/children and bulldozing buildings that have been used by terrorists is a really bad example of propaganda (anti-semitic one at that too).

I agree with you entirely. ... (Below threshold)
DaveH:

I agree with you entirely. The Palestinians are literally allowed to get away with anything, including murder.

loveAmerica, your propagaga... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

loveAmerica, your propagaganda is that of the Third Reich. They denounced the Jewish resistance, and called them terrorists. Anything that the Jews in Nazi Germany could do to resist there were people like you fabricating propganda that was pleasing to the ears of the oppressor. It is easy to see that you do not value a human life unless it falls strictly within your standards of approval. You may have grown up in a communist state, but you sound like a sympathizer more than someone who rejected it. I have lived in Israel, and have many friends there who support change..a change that the likes of you slander with irrational impunity. It is more than obvious that most of the people on this board have never been to the middle East, but they can make assumptions that are both ludicrous, and downright comedic. Go America! LOL!!

loveAmerica, your propagaga... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

loveAmerica, your propagaganda is that of the Third Reich.
----------------------------------
Nathan,
I thought the Third Reich was responsible for the Holocaust that killed 6 millions Jews. Are you trying to say this about yourself? Are you trying to excuse the exterminating of the Jews from the Middle East? And you seem comfortable with blowing up Jewish women/children in Israel.

Nathan Goldstein? No, I do... (Below threshold)
SShiell:

Nathan Goldstein? No, I don't believe that is your name. Muhammed, maybe. It doesn't matter in any event - it's still BIGOT as far as I am concerned.

..Do you live in Israel SS... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

..Do you live in Israel SShiell ??? I have come accross lost souls like yourself when presented with certain realities. All you have are insults, and insipid little quips. You sound like a likudnick..are you? LOL!! Your sect does Israel a disservice being a supporter of state terrorism, but this is to be expected! Cheers!

loveamerica..there you go a... (Below threshold)
Nathan Goldstein:

loveamerica..there you go again, trying to slip away from your obvious bouts of hypocrisy. Let's try this again babe, you "ACT" as a Nazi would against Jews resisting Nazi oppression, and terror. Now apply this same standard against the Palestinain people. I know that it is a major bummer that you cannot see around your blinders, but do try! People like always try to turn injustice, and terror in their favor, but generally you fail. There is no one exterminating the Jews, but I would not be surprised if someone from your sect would orchestrate something as maniacal as that. You sound a bit on the crazy side. Get some anger mangement, and read the Torah! LOL!!!

The so-called "Nathan Golds... (Below threshold)
MichaelC:

The so-called "Nathan Goldstein" is clearly one of the foulest trolls ever to spew the poisonous contents of his mind upon these pages.

Say buh-bye, Nathan (alias ... (Below threshold)

Say buh-bye, Nathan (alias Abdul The Tool).

J.

"Concessions will have t... (Below threshold)

"Concessions will have to be made, and grievances will have to be put aside--or else, there will be continual war and murder."

And there we have it. Tell me, what are the odds of the Palestinian side making these 'concessions' or promises?

Oh, and here's the caveat: Making these promises fair and rational and actually following through.

So far the track record for Palestinians has been abysmal.

Face it, Ryan, the few (and I mean "few") Palestinians that do indeed wish for peace make no overt moves toward that goal (some out of abject fear for their own lives) and even still they will continually make excuses for why the more fanatical of their own thwart the peace process. They will continue to see no problem in their children attending schools where the curriculum consists of teaching their children that Jews are subhuman descendents of pigs and apes. They will continue to dress their children (even babies) in ski masks and AK47s and march them down the streets teaching them to shout profanities and advocate for the deaths of people they don't even know. They will continue to stand idly by while their government shoots rockets from their schools and hospitals. Mothers will still happily accept money in exchange for the lives of their suicidal sons.

And throughout all that, they will cry, "Why do they persecute us so?"

"Do you live in Israel SShi... (Below threshold)
sshiell:

"Do you live in Israel SShiell???"

No, never have. But I have been to Israel. On three seperate occasions I was priviledged to be one of the few to fly brand new F-4 Fighter jets into Israel for the IAF (Yes, I know I am dating myself).

I have a question for you though. If you are so supportive of the Palestinian cause, why aren't you there? Why aren't you standing tall with your brothers in the face of what you refer to as the war crimes being commited by Israel? What, you don't want to end up like Rachel Corrie - mince meat under a Caterpillar dozer?

What? You don't have the power of your convictions?

Are you just like your Palestinian brothers - a coward. Only able to sit behind your computer keyboard and spew your filth, your anti-semitism, and your bigotry on the rest of us.

Come on, answer the question, BIGOT - If you are so hot for the PA, why aren't you there with them?

**I think that this whole t... (Below threshold)
Ryan M.:

**I think that this whole thing is incredibly complex, but also that each side has its valid claims. The problem is that two sides who have a violent and often hate-ridden history have to figure out how to come to the table and make concessions.**

Ryan A - the above is what I have a BIG problem with.

BOTH sides need to learn to come to the table and make concessions? Are you living on Mars? Every time they come to the table, 95% of the concessions are made by the Israelis, the Palestinians proceed to take those concessions, and then throw away and don't abide by even the 5% of concessions they made. And you are arguing that BOTH sides need to learn to make concessions? Show me one large concession - ANY large concession - made by the Palestinians - other than innumerable "Peace accords' that were violated almost immediately after they got their 'Swag.

One side argues for separate states, giving the Palestinians their own state and Israel its own state. The other side argues for "Pushing the Jews into the Sea". How can you NOT take sides?

When Israeli's actions result in the death of Palestinian civilians, you get soul searching and arguments about the necessity of it among Israelis - When Palestinian suicide bombers take out a Pizzeria full of teenaged Israelis, you get Palestinians dancing in the streets. How in the nine hells can you make a moral equivalence?

Yes, Israel is far from perfect, but they sure as heck are much closer to it than the Palestinians have been.

Peace is not achievable in ... (Below threshold)
Gary Gulrud:

Peace is not achievable in the Holy Land except when Palestine is empty as it was when Mark Twain visited in the 1800's.
Their jealous hatred of the Jews is more important to them than the lives of their children. So it is written and so it will always be.
Clearly Iran intends to bring history to an end, and will attempt repeatedly until they succeed or until, as Tamerlane managed, they are slaughtered completely.

For EVERY missile shot into... (Below threshold)

For EVERY missile shot into Israel ONE missile should be returned to the area as close as possible to the shooter. Tit for tat. Every single missile should be returned. Period. Treat them like adults, if they kill, they will be killed. That is the only way they will learn. Screw public opinion, force them to see the truth, or let them be damned.

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
hope your kids grow up

to strap bombs on babies
to kill other children

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
form a terrorist country

then wish to be destroyed
by committing acts of war

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
blame your failings on the Jews

for a few more thousand years
they are Earth's scapegoats

.
absurd thought -
God of the Universe says
give Israel away

to appease her enemies
dishonor America


.
http://absurdthoughtsaboutgod.blogspot.com/search/label/Israel

:)
.




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