Imagine if you will, that this happened is China. The world would be outraged... As it turned out, the Feds got a pass on this. A few weeks bad press and all was forgotten.

Which actually isn't as bad as another well documented screwup where they killed over 1000 people and destroyed a city and the media never asked a single tough question about it.

While there is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to Reno's and the Clinton DOJ's handling of the Waco raid, in the end the deaths of the innocents lay mostly at the feet of the Davidian leaders themselves. It is mind boggling that the piece above works to lift the Davidians to almost heroic status in their struggles against the Feds. It borders on some of the WTC7 stuff you read about! "Compelling evidence" that the FBI started the fire? The evidence is equally "compelling" that the Davidians started it themselves. (Why not even a mention of the gas/kerosene that they spread around before the inferno?)

Good to see that Paul's still completely off his rocker when it comes to THAT topic. I guess we've moved from severe bureaucratic negligance to a deliberate plot to kill innocent people now. Nice.

It all started at Ruby Ridge. Reno was a criminal AG working for a criminal President. That is what happens. I would like for them to actually feel our pain. before the lights went out.

The drive by media papered over this and there was not much people could do about it ... I wonder what the lefties would do if this were President Bush?

I really agree with Gizmo. Granted this entire incident was FUBAR from the get-go and in the aftermath from the government's perspective, but let's not let the whackjobs off so easily, either. David Koresh (whose name isn't even mentioned in the post) and his followers sure get off pretty easy from bearing a great deal of responsibility for the initial raid, after arousing suspicion of Waco authorities by stockpiling weapons (why?) and allegations of child molestation. Not to mention the 51 days that the BDs had multiple opportunities to surrender peacefully and avoid an event like the one on April 19.

I don't see this so much as shameful event as it was a tragedy that so many people were led to their deaths by a very sick and deranged man in the first place.

Boo hoo! Wackos shoot federal agents and then cry about it when they don't surrender. They had it coming and they got what they wanted; suicde by cop.

The children in there didn't have it coming. I doubt the kids wanted suicide by cop either.

> Ruby Ridge

That actually happened under Bush I ( August 21, 1992), just to be accurate.

>They had it coming and they got what they wanted; suicde by cop.

Are you talking about the kids?

FUBAR it was, from the very beginning. Koresh was known to go into town to the post office almost daily; if they had any cause to detain him, even for questioning, it would have been easily accomplished then. The excuse for not doing so was similar to much of what we've heard about the case: that they feared the Davidians, an admittedly apocalyptic sect, might commit mass suicide or something similar in response.

While the Davidians and Koresh in particular cannot be given a complete pass on all responsibility for the events - they could have peacefully surrendered at any point, after all - there is still no evidence that they planned any such actions, or indeed anything illegal at all, before the siege.

An interesting bit of trivia on this case is that the commander of Fort Hood was asked to supply equipment and troops, and complied without questioning the legality of it or clearing it with the Pentagon. Traditionally, commanding such bases is an ease-out position for flag rank officers with no real hope of earning their next star or being called to command major combat arrays or working at the Pentagon. However, this particular general earned Clinton's gratitude for his cooperation, and was promoted to the Pentagon and later to NATO command (although Clinton had to fire him for insubordination only three weeks before his scheduled retirement).

Yep, his name was Wes Clark. Better the fool had been left in Texas . . .

Good post,DJ.
Waco: Rules of Engagement contains the incriminating FLIR tapes. It shows that at the back (unseen) side of the building the government mission was to breach the walls (as opposed to the public CS gas insertions in front) and to cover the interior with a base of fire (rounds, bullets), i.e. no one gets out alive.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665

Lest we forget, though. It all began with the GHWB administration taking seriously the ADL's claim of the Davidians being a "hate group". THEN it went to child molestation to suit Janet Reno's "speciality", THEN to supposed automatic seers for weapons on-site. THEN to pure revenge on the government's part for getting publicly licked on Main Street.

Not only did the DOJ do all that bad stuff but they used bluescreen technology to hide the black helicopters.

A little case of two wrongs--not making a right.

You wanna have a compound and weapons, cool just be prepared to be inspected and be within the law. After passing said inspection the ATF and FBI can be told to go f themselves and have a nice day.

On the other hand, if said group does NOT come within the law, expect the ATF and FBI to blow your compound up....

"It all began with the GHWB administration taking seriously the ADL's claim of the Davidians being a "hate group". THEN it went to child molestation to suit Janet Reno's "speciality", THEN to supposed automatic seers for weapons on-site. THEN to pure revenge on the government's part for getting publicly licked on Main Street."

Can we really blame the Davidians for not wanting to surrender? If a force armed with tanks and machine guns surrounded your house and promised that "no one would get hurt," would you believe them? Has there ever been a case of "no one getting hurt" when that much firepower was at hand?

I find it curious, though, that Waco has been effectively buried by BDS-sufferers, in favor of Abu Graib and Guantanamo. But to me, there is no comparison. Clinton's trigger-happy stormtroopers did much worse to our own people at Waco than we ever did to anyone in Iraq or Guantanamo.

And Waco was the inspiration for the April 19, 1995 attack on the Alfred P. Murrah building in Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh.

Of course, according to Bill Clinton, OKC was Rush Limbaugh's fault.

Now the MSM has bought the FBI and ATF story hook line and sinker.They are now all are saying that Koresh was an evil reincarnation of Hitler. It is the MSM and their support of the Clinton minions that made it so. Strange how the left covers its ass when something goes wrong and later says the evil right is to blame

The issue however, Knightsbrigade, is that the ATF faked the basis for the raid because they wanted a big PR stunt to increase their standing within the Clinton administration. Conducted the raid incompetently. It is unclear, because of ATF misconduct, just who shot first during the initial raid.

On top of that, the FBI handled the aftermath with their usual heavy-handed incompetence that was only compounded by Janet Reno's grotesque incompetence.

Yes, the Branch Davidian cult was a bunch of loons but they were loons that the Waco locals were largely getting along with. Yes, their own reaction to the raid and standoff was loony and criminal but that does not excuse the government's unprofessional behavior - because it was the FBI's job to professionally deal with the situation. And it especially does not excuse the FBI's obstruction of justice.

Instead, because the ATF was a badly run bunch of thugs, people dies ( including ATF agents who died because of the incompetence of their leadership ) and because the Clinton administration did not like the media coverage - people died unnecessarily in the aftermath.

The reference to Ruby Ridge during the first Bush administration is also informative as that also saw thuggish, incompetent and criminal behavior by Federal agents. Again involving both the FBI and ATF.

Waco: Rules of Engagement, Loose Change, Fahrenheit 911... Three peas in the same pod.

Waco: Rules of Engagement, Loose Change, Fahrenheit 911... Three peas in the same pod.

Again, I second that.

It was FUBAR from the beginning, and went down hill from there.

But not to mention Koresh is a bit disengenious.
He was a freakin' child molester.

Saving a child?

Since when do libs care about saving a child?

CS gas metabolizes to cyanide in an enclosed space? Actually, the theoretical concern is that when ingested at the concentrations that can occur in an enclosed space, that the compound can be metabolized into cyanide in peripheral body tissues. That theoretical concern has never been documented and remains quite controversial. Death due to pulmonary complications is more likely and has been documented at the concentrations theoretically necessary for the cyanide conversion to occur.

CS can be lethal, especially to children, infants and those with respiratory or cardiac conditions. Risk is increased by use in an enclosed space, warmer and humid conditions, and in an uncontrolled situation. Of course, Bullets can also be lethal to kids, and both sides had already demonstrated their ability to use assault weaponry in a lethal fashion at the compound. I do believe that bullets have a higher mortality rate than CS gas. Unfortunately, so does a raging fire.

It was a horrible mess at the compound. No need to exaggerate and distort the scene and issues in an attempt to make your points, unless you want to detract from your argument and seem less than authoritative.

I didn't state as to the legitimacy of the ATF, MY point was when dealing with government BS one must play by the rules or take on uncle Sam.

If a group has NO meaningful violations, then unless the Government criminally plants evidence the government can be exposed as incompetent etc.
Either they have to put up, or shut up..

Knightsbrigade, in the Weaver case, the government was caught planting evidence, and it still resulted in a bad outcome.

I wish for Janet Reno to suffer a fate worse then being burned alive..

"after arousing suspicion of Waco authorities by stockpiling weapons (why?)"

The Branch Davidians were in the quite-legal gun show business, and stocked a moderate number of weapons, like any gun dealer of their scale would. They had about two weapons per adult Davidian in the compound (less than average for the Texas, actually), most of which was sales stock. Ditto for their rather large amount of ammunition, which represented a couple of months of inventory.

It also turned out that the big ATF justification for the raid was, well, made up. The undercover agent who testified that the BDs had some illegal weapons of .505 caliber (.50 cal is the legal limit without special permits) was either criminally incompetent or a plain old liar, since the weapons he described were not the weapons the ATF recovered from the scene (they were shown in news footage, and the collectible "Boys antitank rifles" were actually Barrett Light Fifty rifles - perfectly legal). Most of the other claims were just plain false, too.

I read the original sworn statement that the ATF released, and the flaws were right out there in the open...

"Because of this claim (also never substantiated by evidence or any credible sitness)"

So far, the claim against the FLDS sect (also in Texas) of child molestation is unsubstantiated also. If the FLDS leaders are guilty I hope they get the full treatment. But nowdays just an "unsubstantiated allegation" can provide all the excuse the gestapo CPS needs to seize YOUR child because, after all, "It is for the children we do this". I have a friend who has spent thousands of dollars fighting the CPS both on his own behalf and others because of these actions on the part of an out of control organization. In his case, a running battle between a public school teacher over his children's education resulted in a Friday night seizure of his kids by CPS and local armed sheriff's deputies. It took him three days to get them back. No proof of child abuse, molestation, or mistreatment was found. But the unsubstantiated word of a public servant was enough for his constitutional rights to be trampled.

Wake up people! This behavior of your government is happening all over. Political correctness, "its for the children", and legal shenanigans are relegating the constitution and your rights to a footnote of history. This stuff happens every day. I just hope we can vote back in common sense before it is too late.

914,,, she is suffering, as hildebeasts rugeating lover.

An article link for my above rant:

"http://houstonpress.com/2000-12-28/news/sue-me-baby-one-more-time/"

You most probably will have to go to the "Advanced Archive Search" window. Select December 2000 and type in Gary Gates for the phrase and search. The above article should appear.

>Even so, autopsy evidence indicated that several Davidians were run over by armored vehicles, none of them found with any sort of weapon

I am sorry, I have to respond to this. I worked as a Forensic Odontologist with the military for a few years. During that time and during Training Seminars and such during my career I not only interacted with the Odontologists that actually worked on that case but also with the people that recovered the remains. I have seen the pictures and the xrays with my own eyes.

THE BRANCH DIVIDIANS WERE POSITIVELY ABSOLUTELY ARMED TO THE TEETH.

We can argue about how the federal government handled the case but to deny that these people were heavily armed is ignorant, insane, and just plain wrong.

Virtually every single male adult was found with some type of assult rifle within hands reach and literally hundreds of rounds of ammo on their corpses (many had bandoliers and the bullets had cooked off and they had bullet and casing fragments all over their bodies). Also, most of the adult males died from apparent self inflicted gunshot wounds.

I saw pictures of an ammo storage area that probably had hundreds of thousands or rounds of ammo.

David Koresh was found dead next to another adult male and they both died from gunshot wounds to the forehead (very likely they commited mutual suicide by putting their guns against each others heads and counted to 3 and both fired).

I am not even going to touch the point that they had placed numerous combustibles through out their own building. Again, I guess we could argue who specifically started the initial fire but the Branch Dividians intentionly placed large amounts of combustibles throught their own building. And for what? Ummmm... whether or not they actually started the initial fire it was obviously their intention.

Argue about what the government could have done better to resolve this situation with less bloodloss. I would salute you for that. But to ignore that the Branch Dividians were positively armed to the teeth and under the leadership of a truely disturbed individual is stupid. Its a shame that the children died...there is no doubt about that but lets place the real blame where it belongs...David Koresh and his lunatic followers that decided it was best to die than surrender to the authorities and take everybody with them.

And to insinuate that the Federal Government mowed down all these "unarmed" and defenseless people? Good Lord....is this Wizbang or Daily Kos?

Matt

"Can we really blame the Davidians for not wanting to surrender?"
15-Posted by Mike | April 17, 2008 7:10 PM

No. I think we agree. But then...

"I find it curious, though, that Waco has been effectively buried by BDS-sufferers, in favor of Abu Graib and Guantanamo."-mike

It's been buried by EVERYBODY. As for "BDS": we are all ruled, worldwide, by...how can I express it broadly but accurately?...EPICURIANS.

Example: Bush is still covering for the Bojinka plotters from Clinton's watch. Explain that.

Occam's razor: because it is so much EASIER not to kick big rocks. And who are "you" anyway?

"Respect my authoritah!"-Eric Cartman

"Watch what you say!"-Ari Fleisher, WH spokesman

As for Abu Graib: a stain. Gitmo: ditto, with added absurdedy of the Bush Admin claim that US property (by lease) is not US property*. Since certain concessions aren't granted to the leaser (Cuba, as in Japan, viz. Okinawa), all responsibility is vested in...???

Let's see: Bush=chimp...Planet of the Apes! Gitmo is ruled by Future Earth!

*see USMC General Orders...or the US Constitution.

"THE BRANCH DIVIDIANS WERE POSITIVELY ABSOLUTELY ARMED TO THE TEETH."

2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. And quit yelling.

BTW, I have an old sawed-off WWII S&W 38 Special. 6 chambers. Yet I have 80 rounds that I MUST FIRE OFF SOON.

*Git offa mah property!*

"Wizbang or Daily Kos?"

The automaton's plaint. Think for yourself and be glad. F everybody else :)