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Women: are you worthy of a real man?

My post yesterday about how men need to man up ruffled a lot of feathers -- as I knew it would. But it wasn't the whiny liberals complaining this time around. Here, at Wizbang, and on Melissa's blog, the same theme was repeated over and over again: what are women doing to deserve real men?

And you know, it's a good question. Right now, for most women, the answer would be NOTHING.

As much as men may be missing out on what it means to be a real man, women have this problem a hundredfold worse. The state of women today is alarming, and a significant portion of the blame can be laid at the feet of modern feminism. Many women are walking stereotypes and hypocrites. They want a real man, a strong man, to take care of them -- but if he does, he's holding her down. They want to be strong, successful, and as respected in the boardroom as the male CEOs are -- yet they want special treatment to get there. They want to be lauded for their ability to birth children and for their mothering instincts -- but they don't want to be tied down at home, doing "all the work". They want their husband or boyfriend to respect them and make them feel appreciated -- but do nothing to make him feel loved, respected, and appreciated. They talk about being "empowered" -- yet still cry that women are victims.

They're walking, talking contradictions.

Here are some of the comments I got, and Melissa got, on this subject that resonated with me.

anonymous:

Manliness is really the willingness to sacrifice self for the benefit of others, particularly a man's children, wife, family, neighbors and country.

Most young men are willing to die for the respect, admiration and love of a worthy and chaste woman. The problem is that interaction with most women today leads them quickly to the conclusion that few women are worth dying for.

Some will question the need for chastity as a requirement. However, from the male perspective, sex is the greatest compliment that a woman can pay to a man. A woman who sleeps around devalues the compliment.

I am lucky that I found such a woman. As a result, my goals in life in order of priority are fairly simple: (1) provide for my children until they graduate from college, (2) provide for my wife for the rest of her life, (3)provide for myself for the rest of my life, (4) serve my community, and (5) spend as much time with her as I can enjoying life.


MB:

Doctor Melissa, what exactly do you bring to the table as consideration for the man acting according to your precise specifications (and also apparently earning all the money)?

Your vagina?

What if the man doesn't think you're worth it, does he still have to act within your precisely defined parameters?

What a spoiled, entitled brat.


lordsomber:

Re DuToit's rant, I wonder if there's a corresponding rant by a woman criticizing the lack of real women nowadays? Cos as much as guys *do* need to 'man up,' I see plenty of women who need to grow up as well. (Present company excluded, of course.)


Aries:

Gosh, little women really think SHAMING men still works? That stopped a while ago. Scream "Man-Up" from your OWN apartment. Men have seen women in action. Whiners, complainers, misandric and endlessly focused on themselves only. Women threw men away. They're just upset that men realized how much happier they were keeping their pitiful, abusives asses to themselves. Womens Groups lobbied for laws which destroyed the Nuclear Family/Marriage. I'm happy to let women sleep in the bed they made. I'm not lifting a damn finger. Women got us in this mess. When it gets bad enough they'll fight the feminist/the source of their problems. Then MEN will show up, Not before. I'm not fighting battles for women who never cared before. Its the chivalrous nature of men which allowed this to get this far. NO LONGER OUR PROBLEM! Women have built up a lot of contempt in men and they dont know how to put the ink back in the bottle. Oh well!

So SHAME AWAY. We no longer care. Your fault! You fix the problem!!! Men are now HAPPY. We adjust. Wwwhhhiinnnne away!


DJ Drummond:
The real men never left. The women stopped noticing us.

Sean:

What? The bed's been made and now you don't want to sleep in it? Please try to understand. If guys need to "man up", how is that going to happen, because a woman tells them to? T'aint likely. Y'all wanted abortion on demand(kill the children) the pill (sex means nothing) any job a man does (just tweak the standards a little, okay?) sevice acadamies (uh, coporal Sledge raped me) and pretty much anything and everything else. Ok, you got it. Now you want us to act more like men used to, even if it's a whole new ball game. It ain't that men don't want to BE men anymore, it's just that it doesn't MEAN anything anymore, and we just quit giving a shit. And maybe, just maybe, if women didn't behave and look like whores, drink like a Templar, and talk like a sailor, there might be a point to having respect for them. But this is what women wanted, to be more like men, so welcome to club, and when you dilute the standards and race for the bottom, don't be shocked when you wake up in the gutter. I never stopped being a man, and I never needed some woman to tell me how to do it.You got questions? You don't know what happened? You want things to change for the better? Go look in the mirror. I got things to do, I'm a busy man.


I have to say, I wouldn't have looked at the issue this way were it not for comments like these. But every single one of them is exactly right.

While men are more and more emasculated in our society, there's no argument against the fact that it is because of women. Women insisted that men change. Women insisted that they show their emotions more and be less stoic; they insisted that men let themselves be more vulnerable. They try to train boys from infancy to be more feminine so that women can be more masculine.

And now what do we have? "Strong" women with an entitlement attitude and a victim mentality, while men meekly let themselves be walked all over, disrespected, and parodied left and right? Is this how anyone wants it to be?

While men have become emasculated sissy boys, women have become selfish, whiny bitches.

I think anonymous' comment summed it up the best, particularly this part:

Most young men are willing to die for the respect, admiration and love of a worthy and chaste woman. The problem is that interaction with most women today leads them quickly to the conclusion that few women are worth dying for.

So what makes a women worthy of a real man? What does she need to do? I think a large part of the problem deals with the fact that too many women have zero respect and/or appreciation for the men in their lives and the sacrifices that they (the man) are making for them (the woman). How many TV shows today show a smart, strong father figure with a smart, strong wife? When I think of an ideal relationship, that's what I envision. I don't think a real man would ever want some meek, beta female to do everything he wanted. I think he would want a real woman, someone who was his equal, who he could not only love and cherish, but respect and admire.

Anyways, the point was that you can often look to television and pop culture to see what the prevailing attitude of the day is. And too often you see a stupid, lazy husband who's probably not very good-looking and overweight, with a beautiful, brilliant wife who is clearly above him and doesn't appreciate him in the least. He does a lot of smiling meekly and saying, "Yes, dear", while she castigates him in front of her girlfriends.

Why should this guy bother being a better man for her, when she so obviously has no respect for him.

Women today were raised being told that they could have everything. You can have the high-powered career with a six-figure salary, a great husband, two adorable kids, and the house with the white picket fence. No one ever told them that this bears zero resemblance to reality. Therefore, too many women are never satisfied. Nothing their man does is ever good enough; they're never happy in their job; they're always disappointed. They couldn't open their eyes and appreciate what's in front of them if their lives depended on it. Well, that's bad (duh). You couple that with a lack of willingness to make sacrifices (because these kinds of women expect everything handed to them on a silver platter), and you have big trouble.

They expect their man to waste his entire life sacrificing to make her happy, yet she is unwilling to even lift a finger to help, or even acknowledge the sacrifice he's making -- for her. Because in her mind, she deserves all these things anyways, so it's automatically expected. It's not her man going above and beyond to prove his love for her, to provide for her -- it's him doing what's expected of him. The entitlement attitude rears its ugly head, and leaves her disappointed and him bitter.

And then you have to add in the masculinization of women. Feminism seems to view equality as "being exactly like a man". It doesn't allow for the fact that men and women are, indeed, different. So in order for women to be equal, they have to act just like men do -- drink like men, sleep around like men, cuss like men, etc. And while I'm sure it's momentarily thrilling, I somehow doubt that any man wants the drunk chick he saw making out with another girl at a party in the middle of a circle of cheering guys as the mother of his children, as someone he can respect. How is a man supposed to respect a woman who he knows has slept with a hundred different men without blinking an eye? With the advent of abortion on demand, birth control, and feminists cheering slutty behavior on, women have been "liberated" to... sleep around? And this strengthens and empowers women... how?

So what do we have? We have women who expect the world to be given to them, and when it isn't, demand special treatment and affirmative action to get it. They want a man who will do everything she asks of him and more, without ever showing appreciation or gratitude for him. They want to act like men, but be treated like women. They want everything, but are unwilling to do what it takes to get it.

They spent twenty years emasculating men, and eventually realized that it isn't what they want at all. And when they figured out that they wanted real men, many of them had disappeared or weren't interested.

Women need to take a step back -- a big step -- and do a lot of introspection. While yes, this is America, you can't have everything. You can accomplish anything you want, but it always comes with a price. And if women want a real man, then they're going to have to find it in themselves to be able to respect him, to appreciate all he does, and to work as hard as he does at their life, whether inside or outside of the home. I think most men are willing to do just about anything for their wives, if they knew that she was grateful and appreciative. Is it too much to ask to take our egos down a few pegs?

If women want real men to re-emerge, then they need to make themselves worthy of them.


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Comments (39)

I breathlessly await the ne... (Below threshold)

I breathlessly await the next installment - "What real women who want real men should do with the flannel shirted fake men with whom they are currently sharing a double-ended joy toy when the real man of their dreams come along: Salvaging the archtypical 'real man' from the scrap heap of history by writing until your finghers are numb and your eyes glazed over."

How many TV shows today sho... (Below threshold)
RYO:

How many TV shows today show a smart, strong father figure with a smart, strong wife?

Perhaps not many, but check out Friday Night Lights (Eric and Tami Taylor) for one such example.

Way too little, way too lat... (Below threshold)
RickM:

Way too little, way too late. There are precisely six women whose opinion I care about. They are all immediate family. I gave up a long time ago caring about what any other women in society thought about me. Women under 40 have been trained since birth to denigrate men and our society, including men, has come to expect it. The problem does not lie with the male half. We did not "let" it happen. It was shoved down our throats (or up the other end). Women got what they demanded, caveat emptor.

Cassy, the ball (no pun int... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Cassy, the ball (no pun intended) is in your and all women's court. You demanded it, you got it, now you change it. Real men are patient and just waiting for the world to come to its' senses. I don't even know what it would be like to not have someone in your life you would be willing to die for. Seems like such an empty, selfish existence. ww

"Real men" were hunted to e... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

"Real men" were hunted to extinction in North America and much of Europe some 10 to 20 years ago. Every once in a while there's a reported sighting, but so far no hard evidence to support their return. However, there's some talk about importing some from Iran. Maybe they can show us how "real men" treat women. I hear they are real protective of women not wanting to burden them with work outside the home or even the chore of driving the kids around. Apparently, from what's been written on Wizbang recently, they are every women's dream.

Mac Lorry,Right, b... (Below threshold)
JB:

Mac Lorry,

Right, because choosing to be a housewife, mother, respectful, appreciative and chaste is exactly the same as being oppressed as in a theocracy. Thanks for clarifying.

Women under 40 have been... (Below threshold)

Women under 40 have been trained since birth to denigrate men and our society, including men, has come to expect it. The problem does not lie with the male half. We did not "let" it happen. It was shoved down our throats (or up the other end). Women got what they demanded, caveat emptor.

Posted by RickM

EXCELLENT Rick!
My breadwinner wifey has been telling me I should start a blog. I tell her (once I am granted permission)that I have no college degree and am not qualified. She tells me I'm informed enough and anyone can blog.
I think I see her point.

JB,It's not how yo... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

JB,

It's not how you raise the women, but how your raise the men that makes the difference. Just keep telling young boys that to be a "Real Men" they need to make sure their future wives are protected and cared for in every detail, but then don't blame them when they oppress women. Or you can tell young boys that they should treat their wives as equals, but then don't blame them when they expect their wives to live up to that billing. Sorry, you don't get it both ways, at least not in the general case.

I think some people should ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

I think some people should use sarcasm tags to indicate they are being sarcastic. There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings in the comments of these three related posts.

/not sarc

After reading those posts a... (Below threshold)

After reading those posts and all the essays and comments, one underlying theme I see is not so much about lack of "real men" or "real women" rather but that of "real adults," not so much in *what* they do that makes them so, but attitudes and mindsets.

I've been a proud gentleman... (Below threshold)
Piso Mojado:

I've been a proud gentleman chauvinist all my life. I still hold doors open for most women, I treasure my wife, but I believe women have no place in the military along side men, as well in other demanding jobs such as firefighting.

"Metrosexual" sensitive men who primp and wear guy liner make me sick.

Feminazi lesbos made this bed, and you other women get to lie in it with them if you cannot appreciate a real man.

Les Nessman,I think ... (Below threshold)

Les Nessman,
I think many people older than generation w's (whatever)resent the lectures about manhood shaped (whether they know it or not) by feminist counter culture values. This is not to say there weren't some attitudes that needed to be changed but it's awful dogmatic to insult some men who have successful home environments forged by their good instincts and sense of servitude to their mate and children.
A little sarcasm helps blow off the steam.

Most men have never stopped... (Below threshold)
Badger:

Most men have never stopped being "real" men. What men did do was to treat women exactly the way women asked to be treated.

And now women complain about the way they are being treated. They complained before, they are complaining now.

Men see the pattern. It doesn't matter what they do, women will complain about them.

As with all else, you can h... (Below threshold)

As with all else, you can have what you shop for. Provided you can pay the price.

But no whining about the consequences of your choice.

There are all kinds of load in a marriage, or any other relationship between two people. Over time, the ones where both parties feel the other is carrying their fair share of the overall load will be the ones that *don't* automatically self destruct.

You want the alpha male who puts you on a pedestal and provides a million dollars per year of income? Such a male comes with a price - not in money, he's got plenty of that - but in other ways. He's got something a lot of people want - he is able to expect a lot in return.

You want the gorgeous supermodel that everyone drools over? Ditto. The male who wants to attract such a woman had better have something to match the perceived benefits she brings in to the relationship, because she's got something a lot of men want.

In both cases, prior choices can mean you don't qualify. And there will likely be side-items that are potential deal breakers - especially with high maintenance members of both sexes. That guy in the above example has got a strong ego and a lot of expectations, as does the described woman.

Decide what's really important to you when you go shopping for a mate - because nobody's got an unlimited budget. And stop whining because you didn't get what you didn't shop - or pay - for.

Happy is the couple that th... (Below threshold)

Happy is the couple that thinks in 'we' in place of 'me' and 'he'.

CassiOver the last... (Below threshold)
joe:

Cassi

Over the last few days, weeks even, you have ably demonstrated that you have little undersatnding of male/female dynamics.

Moreover like an empty vessel, you make too much noise. Shush. Be quiet. Because you have very little to an add to an argument that has been going on since time began.

Cassy,I think you ... (Below threshold)
Mattnu:

Cassy,

I think you have been writing very good commentary about the nature of Men and Women and their relationships today. I also beleive it needed to be said. Thank you.

The definition of Real Man, is going to vary somewhat from person, to person, man to man. Men aren't from cookie cutters, after all its hard to get those snips, snails and puppy dog tails into a mold. I do know that Real Men don't abuse their wives or kids, do their best to provide for them and generally put their needs best.

Strong women are okay, they appreciate strong men. By strong women, I mean strength of character, not bullies, feminazi's etc. The best description of a wife I have found is from Proverbs chapter 31. The passage provides a pretty decent guide for what to look for in a wife. For the life of me though I've never been able to decide if they are talking about a work-at-home Mom or a out-of-home Mom. It's probably a hybrid of some sort. If read through, Proverbs does lay out the requirements of a good husband, just not as succintly.

Pretty fair, but you still ... (Below threshold)

Pretty fair, but you still missed a major part of the problem from your previous post. Why is it that a man is supposed to be a provider, but a woman gets to decide whether or not she works when the family can afford for her to stay at home?

If you want the traditional provider role for your man, then he has every right to expect you to stay at home and care for the children. That's just reciprocity.

The elephant in the room on this issue is that women today don't want to be in any way, shape or form subordinate to their husband. They don't want him to be head of household, yet they also want him to do things like protect them. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that.

Equality negates chivalry.

joe: "you have very litt... (Below threshold)

joe: "you have very little to an add to an argument that has been going on since time began."

So, what, modern women can't have a perspective on this issue? I disagree with some of her take, but come on, now.

Good point MikeT, but let's... (Below threshold)

Good point MikeT, but let's remember, this is also the society which thinks parents should give in to whatever their kids want. There's even a television dedicated to the premise that adults' inability to recall certain specific trivia from 30 years ago means they are not "smarter than a 5th grader". The gender bias just follows the same road.

You couldn't limbo below the bar of today's moral standards.

I care about the opinion of... (Below threshold)

I care about the opinion of 3 females in my life. My Wife, my Daughter, and my Mom. After that, I could care less.

If I were single, there would be a select few women I'd be interested in dating, since a large percentage of whom are what I consider high maintenance. Had it not been for my Wife, I'd probably be happily single right now. As it is, I'm happily married.

infidelA little s... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

infidel
A little sarcasm helps blow off the steam.

I agree. I just meant that some people seem to not understand that some of the comments are sarcasm.

Cassy,When you say,"... (Below threshold)
Neoluddite:

Cassy,
When you say,"while men meekly let themselves be walked all over, disrespected, and parodied left and right," it made me think that you are missing part of the Real Man Code. A Real Man does not strike back at a woman. Real Men protect and honor women in general and the women in their lives in particular. A man who humiliates a women is no man indeed, whether or not she is humiliating him. Some of the men who are being walked all over are not being meek and passive, but applying their strength to restraint. It is a shame that many women lose their respect for the Real Men that are in their lives. It is worse when a man loses respect for himself.

If Women's Studies departme... (Below threshold)
Jayemay:

If Women's Studies departments at America's Universities were genuine academic forums, this is exactly the type of discussion that should form significant thought in the field. Unfortunately I suspect that expressing such thoughts in the halls of academia would be more likely a good way to get sued by your professor.

Neo"A Real Man does ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Neo
"A Real Man does not strike back at a woman. ... A man who humiliates a women is no man indeed, whether or not she is humiliating him."

It sounds like a real catch-22 situation.
Stand up for yourself against a woman who humiliates you, and Neo says you're not a Real Man. Don't stand up for yourself, and Cassy says you're not a Real Man.

I think that's a reflection of society in general. Not a good situation.

Les,Right you are. B... (Below threshold)
Neoluddite:

Les,
Right you are. But to clarify, there are ways to stand up for yourself that do not involve humiliation or force. Finding those means is the challenge. That women can't see the strength of of the man who is not beating her down (physically or emotionally)is a pity.

Fifteen years or so ago, I ... (Below threshold)
MagicalPat:

Fifteen years or so ago, I spent a lot of time in Japan. Within weeks of arriving, I was stunned at how much the Japanese women appreciated American men. It also made me aware of just how much the American women looked down upon American men.

For a few years after, I dated many women from Japan, which of course caused the American women I knew to ridicule me for wanting a 'subservient' woman. I would reply that I was just interested in a woman who allows a man to be a man and appreciates him for it.

As I look around these days at the happiest women I know, this dynamic is always present. Celebration for the differences between the sexes, and no attempt to try to make their man into one of their girlfriends.

In fact, if a woman has no girlfriends, then she may be trouble because if you date her, she will need you to fill that role.

You tell them Cassy,<... (Below threshold)
Sidney:

You tell them Cassy,

I am married to one of those women that wants it all one day and wants to quit and stay home the next. Our finances are divided into "our money" and "her money". "Her money" goes to whatever she pleases and "our money" goes to household expenses and "her money" when she comes up short. I have a fantasy of suggesting she return it when she is flush but who wants to have the arguement. It is amazing what can be deemed a "household expense" when you want, like "I don't know what I bought" when asked where that $300 purchase was while reviewing the checking account for mistakes.

We have been married for 28 years and I have had to tolerate accusations of infidelity and constant reminders of how I will never understand. Every argument ends with my "lack of understanding" or "insensitivity" being the root problem.

What I find most ironic is we had none of this until she obtained a college degree and seriously entered the workforce as a professional.

She's not the woman I married but she is still the woman I love. Then again I am not the young stud I once was either.

Still, I will be there for her till my dying day unless she tosses me aside.

Sorry, Miss Fiano. You've a... (Below threshold)

Sorry, Miss Fiano. You've already tipped your hand. Either have the courage of our convictions and stick to your original statements and their implications, or admit your fault and apologize. Nothing else will serve you.

Sorry, that should have bee... (Below threshold)

Sorry, that should have been "YOUR convictions." Obviously, I don't share them.

Les Nessman I agree. I j... (Below threshold)

Les Nessman I agree. I just meant that some people seem to not understand that some of the comments are sarcasm.

I know what you mean. But message board and blog posting doesn't always come off with the tone you intended. For example, yesterday I was trying to be a little too cute with a person called "knightbridge" and I cringed when I realized it was offensive to that person. (Sorry KB if you're out there.)
All things considered, I think most of the folks here are not given to internecine squabbling like the loons on the lefty blogs.

Being that I'm one of the f... (Below threshold)
SteveC:

Being that I'm one of the few handful of men in my office out of dozens of women, there is a double standard now. Women are free to talk about their escapades and whatever other indulgences while the men have to keep tight-lipped. Ordinarily, I doesn't bother me, since I'm not one to talk about women I've been with or other relationship topics, but these days, it's almost normal for the women of the department to get away with that. This is why I keep to myself, don't talk about ANY dates or women in general and go home and be myself there. Doesn't necessarily make me a meek man or a man who's less than one, I just see things for what they are at work.

Women are free to talk a... (Below threshold)

Women are free to talk about their escapades and whatever other indulgences while the men have to keep tight-lipped.
Posted by SteveC

You can thank shows like Sex In The City for this ...........you know, the show about ugly women getting it from hot guys (which is written by gay men).

From Sean's comment:<blockq... (Below threshold)

From Sean's comment:

What? The bed's been made and now you don't want to sleep in it? Please try to understand
This reminds me of something my dad told me years ago, "Why do women want to come down off the pedestals men put them on to roll around in the mud with us?". He taught me to open doors for women, never hit a woman, basically treat them with respect. Chivalry should not have to disappear.

Chivalry should not hav... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Chivalry should not have to disappear.

Yup. Unfortunately, it disappeared the day women became the equals (or more) of men in the eyes of society and the law when competing for work. If a woman is competing with a man for a job, should he be chivalrous and fight with one hand tied behind his back? Should he give her a head start at the expense of his own family? Hell no.
We're talking about his livelyhood here. He should be able to compete just as hard as if he was competing with any other man.

And yet, women are often given special treatment and lower standards to meet for many jobs. A form of institutionalized chivalry, as it were. For many, being a woman means having all (or more) of the rights of a man and less of the responsibilities. Of course, pointing out the blatant discrimination and unfairness is seen as 'unmanly whining', you see, so you gotta keep yer mouth shut.

The usual response by men is to sigh, put your head down and slog through it stoically until you retire or get a chance to drop out of modern society. I'm surprised more don't drop out, frankly.

In the end you found one an... (Below threshold)
Mark:

In the end you found one answer:

"If women want real men to re-emerge, then they need to make themselves worthy of them."

Becoming a good mate is the solid path to attracting one....

.Most of us need divine help........

This from an anonymous quo... (Below threshold)
jainphx:

This from an anonymous quote back at the birth of Feminism. "I don't mind women trying to be men, but at least be a gentleman about it" That about sums it up for me.

1) Women need to decide (in... (Below threshold)
Skullcrusher:

1) Women need to decide (individually) if they want to be our wards or our partners. We can live with either one but you have to STICK WITH YOUR CHOICE! No changing back and forth between the two constantly in an effort to maximize goodies and freedom while avoiding responsibility and work.

2) You guys have got the chivalry thing all wrong. The rule is not "You may not hit a WOMAN." The rule is "You may not hit a LADY." Long ago the odds of one being the other were fairly high.

Man Up?Why would I... (Below threshold)
Jack in TX:

Man Up?

Why would I take any advice/direction on the topic of how I'm supposed to behave - as a Man - from a female?

Who can really take women seriously anymore?

When trying to explain the behavior of women to my teenage son, I ended up having to suggest that he approach them as he would any unknown alien creature: He should have no preconceptions as to their friendliness or hostility; not expect rational/Human behaviour; and under no circumstances to trust one when not watching it carefully.

A tad extreme? Possibly, but my son is a worthwhile person growing into a fine young man. On the other hand, the female population of his school have convinced me that America is doomed unless large numbers of the species "Lady" are imported from other parts of the globe.

Go away, little girl. Take all of your malformed expectations away and convert to lesbianism as quickly as possible so that you can drive each other batshit.

XXXOOO




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