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Meet Dr. Norman Spack, the nutjob who wants to give sex changes to kids!

Here's my candidate for asshat of the day. Meet Dr. Norman Spack, the nutjob who wants to give sex changes to kids -- kids as young as seven-years-old!

This is just horrifying:

Boston's Children's Hospital bills itself as the hospital for children -- and now it's also the hospital for children who want a sex change, a procedure some critics are calling "barbaric."

Dr. Norman Spack, a pediatric specialist at the hospital, has launched a clinic for transgendered kids -- boys who feel like girls, girls who want to be boys -- and he's opening his doors to patients as young as 7.

Spack offers his younger patients counseling and drugs that delay the onset of puberty. The drugs stop the natural flood of hormones that would make it difficult to have a sex alteration later in life, allowing patients more time to decide whether they want to make the change.

Spack also offers some teenagers hormone therapy, a drastic step that changes the way they grow and develop. While the effects of drug treatments can be stopped, long-term hormone therapy can be irreversible, causing permanent infertility in both sexes.

For some, that trade-off is worth it. Transgendered children are deeply troubled and have a "high level of suicide attempts," Spack told the Boston Globe. "I've never seen any patient make [a suicide attempt] after they've started hormonal treatment," he said.

Spack would not grant an interview to FOXNews.com and the Boston's Children's Hospital declined to respond.

But not all doctors are convinced, and some say the treatments do much more harm than good.

"Treating these children with hormones does considerable harm and it compounds their confusion," said Dr. Paul McHugh, University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at John Hopkins University. "Trying to delay puberty or change someone's gender is a rejection of the lawfulness of nature."


This story made me think of the parents who thought it was OK to let their little boy "become" a woman that I wrote about last year.

Except, in this case, the boy is seven. Let's start with his parents. They have five boys, and then have a sixth Paula refers to as "George". And his parents started dressing and referring to him as a girl at around the age of two when they "realized" that he liked pink, pretty, and feminine things -- which clearly was a sign from their eighteen-month-old that he wanted to be a girl, not a boy. And the mother gushes about how she "let" her four-year-old boy dress up in a pink gown, there was sheer joy in "her" face and how "she" came out of "her" shell.

More evidence that "George" supposedly wanted to be a girl was that he wanted to go to the bathroom in public with Mommy instead of Daddy -- because, you know, little boys never use public bathrooms with their moms. That's a rare sight, right there. They say "George" became depressed and angry, and attempted to cut off his penis with scissors. And the mother states, very seriously, that if she didn't "let" her son become a girl, he/she would take his/her own life... "whether it be tomorrow, or the next week, or the next month".

Because, you know, five-year-olds understand what suicide is and everything.

So the parents took him/her out of school for a year, grew out his/her hair, dressed him/her in girl clothes, and re-enrolled him/her into a new school as a girl.


The parents in that video and Dr. Norman Spack have something in common, apparently. They both find it perfectly acceptable to put children through hormone-induced mutation and genital mutilation, because it makes them "feel good".

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: if someone is over the age of eighteen, and wants to become transgendered, then that's their business. I may not understand it, I may not agree with it, but it's their body and they can screw around with it as much as they want. It isn't my problem. However, it is morally wrong to put a child through that process. As an adult, as a parent, it is your job to be the adult, to say no when your child makes ridiculous demands.

And as for Dr. Spack, how is it that he still has his license to practice medicine?! This is just completely wrong on so many levels. I have to wonder what kind of "counseling" he gives these children. A seven-year-old child does not have the maturity to make this kind of life-altering decision, or really understand what it is they're getting themselves into. Who is it that is putting the idea of hormone therapy into these children's heads? Dr. Spack? It's just such an exploitation of his position as a doctor, and his position in these children's lives as an authority figure that they are supposed to trust with their health and their lives.

I also can't understand how a parent can let their child be mutilated in this way. Just because your son or daughter says they want something, it doesn't mean they should automatically get it -- and especially not something as drastic and life-altering as this! What are these parents thinking?! This story is proof that we are seeing the downfall of western civilization as we know it.

One of Ace's commenters, Scout, had a pretty good take on the sheer insanity of this method of "parenting":

My young son wants to be a car. If you ask him what he wants to be when he grows up, he will respond in total seriousness, "I want to be a car. I want to be Lightening McQueen from Cars." He believes that this -- becoming a talking cartoon race car -- is his destiny.

So if I followed the reasoning of those who will take their little boy into a chop-shop because he likes playing dress up with his sister's Disney princess costumes, I guess I should find a surgeon willing to graft tires onto my son's hands and feet.

Or I could do what a sane, rational parent does, and just wait it out until he passes through this stage and moves on to dinosaurs.

The world is going insane.


I just can't fathom how a parent hears their little boy saying, "I want to be a girl, and play with girl toys, and dress like a girl!", and interpret it as the need for the boy to become transgendered. In cases like the family in the video above, I would say that counseling is strongly needed. Lots and lots and lots of counseling. These children are confused, and need someone to help them work through their confusion. They need someone to be an adult and actually take responsibility for the situation, rather than just caving in to whatever it is your child is demanding. A child cannot make this kind of decision for themselves. Once they've grown up and become adults -- meaning eighteen and are responsible for their own lives -- they can make that decision for themself. But until then, it's the parents' responsibility to be a parent and not give in to these kinds of delusions!

And as for Dr. Spack, I think someone should remind him of that oath he took. You know, that one about doing no harm... as he apparently seems to have forgotten. A seven-year-old doesn't understand what kinds of risks he or she will be taking by going through hormone therapy -- like, let's say, permanent infertility. And the effects of these mutilations are irreversible, meaning that these children will have to live with them for the rest of their lives, even if they grow out of this phase and realize that they never really wanted to do it. Most kids can't even decide what their favorite color is, yet we're supposed to trust them with such a huge, irreversible, life-changing decision like this? Does Dr. Spack have no set of morals, no ethics, to guide him? It's horrible.

What's interesting to note is the notable doctor who loved performing sex change operations on children: Dr. Josef Mengele. He would often perform sex change operations on children. But today, far from being a horror inflicted by a monster like Dr. Mengele, this is something our society is supporting. Parents are paying this man to barbarically mutilate their children.

What have we come to?

Hat Tip: Ace


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Comments (51)

There is an action someone ... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

There is an action someone should take against the phony doctor, but it's still illegal to kill idiots so it's not recommended.

Don't forget, thanks to Rom... (Below threshold)

Don't forget, thanks to RomneyCare [read: taxpayer-subsidized healthcare for illegal aliens and multi-generational welfare abusers] being the law of the land, guess who gets to pay for 'em.

Ref: this guy quoted in the Boston Sunday Globe in a story about people moving out of Massachusetts.

"We need to start asking what we can do to make Massachusetts a more desirable place to live, why people don't want to come here to live."

- Andrew Sum, Director
Northeastern University's Center for Labor Market Studies

I've got an idea. Instead of legislation banning pocket knives, trans fats, or metal display hooks in stores, how about legislation banning children's genital mutilation?

I know, I'm just one of those crazy right-wingers...

I hung myself from my bunkb... (Below threshold)
Pathia:

I hung myself from my bunkbed with a belt over this very issue at the age of 8. Kids this age very much can be suicidal over it, don't try to tell yourself otherwise. I am lucky I survived.

I was forced into therapy to make me find my 'hidden masculinity'. I would again try to kill myself at 10, 13, 15 and 17. Twice would involve hospital visits of more than a day due to the damage, and prolonged lockups in a mental ward.

Ummm. Perhaps when discussi... (Below threshold)
JamesT Author Profile Page:

Ummm. Perhaps when discussing sex change operations, the word "nutjob" might be a poor choice of words. ;-)

Hmmm...Mommy has 6 sons, an... (Below threshold)
Julie:

Hmmm...Mommy has 6 sons, and at 18 months her youngest son 'decides' that he wants to be a girl?? Sounds to me like Mommy wants a daughter so bad that she is willing to force her son to become a girl.

"I've got an idea. Instead ... (Below threshold)
Pathia:

"I've got an idea. Instead of legislation banning pocket knives, trans fats, or metal display hooks in stores, how about legislation banning children's genital mutilation?"

This doctor is NOT doing surgery. He's just treating them with pausing drugs, ie: they don't 'alter' anything, they just push the pause button on puberty, it doesn't make it not happen. Then the surgery occurs when they are EIGHTEEN or older and only then and only after they've made the choice as a legal adult.

Repeat these kids are NOT getting surgery. Only once they turn 18 are they allowed to get it.

OK, so no surgery's involve... (Below threshold)

OK, so no surgery's involved. It still doesn't explain the Mass. mentality that says a 42-year-old woman is not responsible enough to protect herself from being raped (lawful carrying of a sidearm), but 7-year-olds can somehow be responsible enough to request body-altering drugs?

Dr Spack doesn't perform su... (Below threshold)

Dr Spack doesn't perform surgery. But why let facts get in the way of a good headline?

The treatment is conservative, and completely reversible until the child reaches an age where they'd be able to marry in some states.

He gives them a drug that delays puberty. That's it.

When they reach late teenagerhood, they're given the option of taking hormones. The effect of these is also reversible in the first 6 months, and often 12 months.

But there are some patients that have had surgery. These were Intersexed children - sometimes boys whose only fault was a penis not long enough to meet parental expectations - who were castrated when newborn. And when, surprise surprise, despite their surgically assigned genitalia, they still insisted on acting like little boys, they were labelled "gender confused" girls, "mentally ill".

Rather than being another Mengele, Dr Sacker is actually helping these kids too, along with the other ones whose neurology doesn't match their bodies.

Dr. Spack and Boston Childr... (Below threshold)
Audrey:

Dr. Spack and Boston Children's Hospital should be commended for their approach. It has the potential to save childrens' lives. I realize the author has no understanding whatsoever of gender dysphoria and the mental and emotional agony it causes.

Did he realize that those who have chosen hormonal and/or surgical treatments are happy with their choice and results more than 99% of the time? I'm pretty certain he doesn't care.

Perhaps the author also believes that left-handed children should be forced to use their right hand? Perhaps he believes those with dyslexia are just stupid? Maybe those with schizophrenia shouldn't be given treatment since their condition isn't visible.

"but 7-year-olds can someho... (Below threshold)
Pathia:

"but 7-year-olds can somehow be responsible enough to request body-altering drugs?"

Seven year olds are not requesting body-altering drugs. The drugs are not put into use until the child is 12-15. We used to marry kids off at that age, don't think they don't know what they are doing. Are they mature? No, but they are ready to start making choices.

What was my choice? I had no choices, so I tried to choose death over and over again. I tried to hang myself twice, and the rest were overdoses on pills.

Would you rather us kill ourselves when we're young, like I tried to?

Cassy, this is a complex is... (Below threshold)
epador:

Cassy, this is a complex issue and submitting an inflammatory and medically inaccurate post does a disservice to the site. And sadly adds to your reputation. Scrappy's post #1 which disingenuously mentions violence against a physician as "not recommended" [I find the fact that this has not been disemvoweled or deleted dangerously offensive] shows that you can easily provoke hate speech with such inaccurate ramblings. Are you proud?

A knee jerk reaction from a... (Below threshold)
RikkiS:

A knee jerk reaction from a poorly written article. Children who are diagnosed with GID (Gender Identity Disorder) go to this physician for direction and medical help. A few of the things not covered in the story: There is no drug prescribed until the onset of puberty and then only if the child has a solid diagnosis of GID by pyschologists trained specifically in gender disorder. The drugs given are to block hormone production but are 100% reversible when the drug is stopped. Between initial diagnosis and puberty the most that is done for the child, besides psychological screening, is that they are allowed to assume the role of the opposite gender. No "sex change" is prerformed until the child reaches legal age, can make the decision for themselves, has a solid dianosis of GID and then meets all the criteria established by the medical community through the Harry Benjamin Standards.

What would your reaction be if you found out that doctors all over the nation were prescribing "speed, legally, to children? Sorry to say it is done all the time!! It is used to treat ADHD but I bet you wouldn't disagree with a physician for that prescribing, so why are you against appropriately treating another medical condition, GID?

I would say that counsel... (Below threshold)
Mattnu:

I would say that counseling is strongly needed. Lots and lots and lots of counseling. These children are confused, and need someone to help them work through their confusion.

Cassy, I agree with your post and your outrage. Unfortunately, I would surmise that these parents have already sought counseling in these matters and the counselors convinced them and the child that they suffered from GID and that sex change therapy(?) was the only way to deal with it. It is so much easier to make it a "medical" issue than working through this problem with their children. In a society that has no qualms about killing children this should not be a suprise. In future years I predict this will become a fertile field for the legal proffession as the "GID" children reach adulthood and sue parents and medical practitioners for doing this to them.

"In future years I predict ... (Below threshold)
Pathia:

"In future years I predict this will become a fertile field for the legal proffession as the "GID" children reach adulthood and sue parents and medical practitioners for doing this to them."

Most of us are quite happy thank you very much :) Though of course, I didn't have this option. I had to run away from home at the age of 17 to get treatment, live on the streets until I had organized myself enough to go to college. There I switched genders, got a Master's degree and I'm doing fairly well. I have no intention to sue anyone involved.

Totally agree with Julie. ... (Below threshold)
DNB:

Totally agree with Julie. Would like to know how early mom put George in pink clothing? In a house filled with boys, how did he even find girls clothes to wear? I have three kids. I don't recall any of them 'deciding' something at 18 months. My son didn't even talk until he was 3!

One girl was called Jean... (Below threshold)

One girl was called Jean Marie
Another little girl was Felicity
Another little girl was Sally Joy
The other was me, and I'm a boy

My name is Bill, and I'm a head case
They practice making up on my face
Yeah, I feel lucky if I get trousers to wear
Spend evenings taking hairpins from my hair

[Chorus:]
I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it
I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But if I say I am, I get it

Put your frock on, Jean Marie
Plait your hair, Felicity
Paint your nails, little Sally Joy
Put this wig on, little boy

[Chorus]

Wanna play cricket on the green
Ride my bike across the street
Cut myself and see my blood
Wanna come home all covered in mud

[Chorus]

There is a lot of ignorance... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

There is a lot of ignorance on this topic.

Cassy was so very right when she said "I may not understand it" She should have left it at that-- It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to write a blog post like this and prove it.

Luckly for the unfortunate few who are born with this condition there are kind, thoughtful, open-minded, and compassionate doctors like Dr. Spack who are willing to help despite the ignorant bigots who "may not agree with it".

I generally tend to just ignore a lot of Cassy's posts as the useless drivel they are, but this one --comparing Spack to Mengele-- was beyond the pale. Thanks, Cassy, for providing more evidence for the left's distored view of "conservatives".

I am sorry, but I am having... (Below threshold)
JamesT Author Profile Page:

I am sorry, but I am having a hard time with a child of seven "knowing" they are the wrong gender. Given how much in flux a childs mind is at seven, and all the different things they want to be, and don't want to be changing on a daily basis...it just is hard for me to buy it.

And the problem for me is, they are children. Someone has to make this decision for them, it is not as if, one posted wrote, they were 17 got their act together and made a decision on the topic. It is a young child wanting acceptance from their parents, authority figures and what not, I would be very leery of doing anything that later could not be reversed or could leave to lasting damage, mentally. I think this may be jumping the gun with these kids.

Lawsuits? You bet. Someone somewhere is not going to be happy with their new gender ten years down the road and we will be off to the courthouse.

Actually, the children that... (Below threshold)
Kara:

Actually, the children that go through this will likely have most of their issues with people like you...people who are so biased in their opinion of what they think is best.

If a kid had cancer, would you actually make them wait until they were 18 to treat it? I think not. Puberty was probably the hardest thing I had to deal with in life...transitioning to my current gender was a piece of cake. Of course, dealing with people that have issues with my course of action is always a pain.

I think everyone who falls for the sensationalism of this article needs to first understand that the whole process is quite detailed, and some child cannot simply walk in and have a sex change. The doctor is simply providing hormone blockers or hormone replacement in order for that transgender child to have better potential in their future than having to go through a devastating puberty. Most US surgeons will not provide sex reassignment surgery to anyone under 18, anyway.

Finally, I knew at 7 that I was transgender, but I didn't have the words to express what I was going through...nor did I have the courage to tell my parents back in the 70's. When puberty did hit, I was devastated. I'm amazed I made it through that period in my life, but in actuality, I lost a bit of myself by trying to shut all of it away in the back of my mind....only to make things worse.

Cassy: Do you distinguish ... (Below threshold)
pennywit:

Cassy: Do you distinguish between conditions such as this and intersexed children?

--|PW|--

Kara-First, cancer a... (Below threshold)
JamesT Author Profile Page:

Kara-
First, cancer and GID, apples and motorcycles. But I do understand what you are saying. However, you did say yourself you did not have the ability to vocalize what you wanted at that age, or what you believed in or understood. Maybe seven is too young to make this decision, maybe 17 can be too late, so there must be some point in the middle. (Prob around the age courts accept testimony and apply intent and culpability.) I just think it is a very fluid situation that could lead to bad results.

And sorry to disappoint you, but I have no issue with your choice.

From a medical point what are the risks of taking those drugs for a long term? We know the dangers of menopausal women taking hormone replacement. Are there are studies that have shown the long terms affects of these drugs on children? Muscle damage? Liver problems? I am simply asking here, if there is such a study. And if there is not, how long do you think it will be before some plaintiffs attorney sues the good doctor?

Counseling does not work. G... (Below threshold)
Cubic Trap:

Counseling does not work. Gender identity is dictated by society not by nature. Other cultures have not separated the sex identities as far apart as the West has and certainly not as far apart as in the U.S. Think WWF guys and playboy bunnies. It's not like that, say in Japan. If things were not so separated would children want to have their sex changed in the first place?

Yes, what kind of parents are we when a boy cries and he is called a wimp or a sissy. When he likes to play with dolls and somehow the nurturing side of him is considered wrong.

No my boy, you must learn to be macho, join a gang, learn to kill, this is what a man should be! We are wonderful parents.

We've had women's liberation, it's time for men's liberation.

I just think it i... (Below threshold)
I just think it is a very fluid situation that could lead to bad results. ... From a medical point what are the risks of taking those drugs for a long term? We know the dangers of menopausal women taking hormone replacement. Are there are studies that have shown the long terms affects of these drugs on children? Muscle damage? Liver problems? I am simply asking here, if there is such a study.
Yes, there are such studies. 2 cases of breast cancer and one of vaginal cancer have been detected in TS women. That's in a population size of over 100,000.

We don't know the risks of Hormones in menopausal women. We know the risks of one specific chemical, Ethyl Estradiol. This is an estrogen-like compound, not 17B estrodiol, estradiol valerate, or estradiol cypronate, all of which either are "bio-identical" to the 17B estradiol found in all humans, or immediately metabolise to a bio-identical form. EE when it gets metabolised becomes all sorts of chemicals not found naturally.

HRT (hormone replacement therapy) is risky though, and various anti-androgens in particular can cause both muscle damage, liver damage, and can induce diabetes too. Regular checks at 3 month intervals are essential at the beginning. The signs of damage in the blood tests appear long before the damage becomes too great for the body's healing mechanisms to cope with. In those cases, you discontinue immediately, and try another, similar chemical.

We also have a good idea of the cost of not providing treatment. Most of the studies are flawed, with large uncertainties. One that isn't was conducted by the Scottish Office in the UK. It showed that 50% of TS children had self-harmed by age 20. That doesn't include "successful" suicides, which other studies showed were between 5% and 30%.

The rates of clinically depressive psychosis, alcohol and other substance abuse, were also high.

This condition kills or maims most of those kids who have it, if they don't get treatment. Historically, success rates of treatment vary from 80% to 98%, depending on the quality of treatment. With Dr Spack's regime, it's close to 100%. I say "close to" because it hasn't been tried long enough to find any failures.

If things were not... (Below threshold)
If things were not so separated would children want to have their sex changed in the first place?
Some would, yes. For some, it's not about the clothes, or the gender role, it's about the way they think. Men and women think differently, you can see that on fMRI scans.

And for some, there's also an element of body dysmorphia. Boys waking up screaming because they wonder where their, er wedding-tackle has gone. Then they realise they didn't get issued with any. In their dreams, they're normal, whole, complete, body matching brain and mind. Then they wake up to nightmare.

And girls wake up wondering where their boobs have gone, and what's that thing between their legs. I know that feeling myself.

Although technically I'm Intersexed rather than Transsexual - and like those with the 5ARD or 17BHDD got a natural apparent sex change. It doesn't change the chromosomes, just the appearance.

People who are TS or IS tend to know as much about Hormones as Diebetics know about sugar metabolism and insulin. Rather more than most doctors not specialising in the area.

Zoe Brain:Thank yo... (Below threshold)
JamesT Author Profile Page:

Zoe Brain:

Thank you! Thats the type of information that I find useful in these types of questions. Removing actual physical harm from the drugs prescribed as a "con" helps in looking at the issues.

I know personally a transge... (Below threshold)
Catherine:

I know personally a transgendered teen who would not be alive today, but for Dr. Spack's intervention. This is not a place parents go to happily or without years of trying to implement the advice of specialists who counsel parents in ways to help the child to accept his or her birth gender. For minors with exceptionally severe cases of gender dysphoria, the treatment involves the suspension of puberty, which is entirely reversible. There is no mutilation taking place and no permanent, irreversible treatments given to young children. If I had not witnessed first hand the incredibly positive outcome of this treatment (academically, personally, emotionally) for this child, I would also have been very skeptical. When we saw the well-adjusted, confident child who emerged after years of profound unhappiness (and who, years later, continues to do well on all fronts), we came to believe that for a small number of children, this may be their single best and, possibly, only option. Those who have not experienced this personally should avoid making judgments.

To the uninformed such a ra... (Below threshold)

To the uninformed such a radical approach seems like lunacy, of course. And although kids are much too young to make adult decisions in a world that they are not yet aware of, self identity is not something you learn, it is who you are, and most kids know who they are by age 2.

While I am not advocating that every kid who likes pink should be thrown onto a path of transition, if a kid from the time they can walk and speak identifies as the opposite sex, and this continues for several more years, then you have to consider the fact that the kid is most likely transgender.

If the brain of a biological boy is wired as female in the womb, no amount of therapy is going to change that. Imagine for a minute you wake up one morning and go to the bathroom mirror. You feel the same as any other day, but when you look in the mirror someone swapped your body. You now have to go about your day as the opposite sex. How uncomfortable would that be for you? This is how a transsexual feels everyday until they treat the condition.

I doubt that any parents say "when my kid grows up I want him/her to be transgender." Parents, at least most of them, who have transgender kids have done far more research than anyone here who so freeing provides their insight, and as such those parents are far better prepared to know what is best for their kid.

Being trans is an anomaly, not a disease, and you all should just recognize that and stop turning it into a media sensation. Get a life of your own and stop worrying about everyone else's.

This commentary (a term I u... (Below threshold)
Mike:

This commentary (a term I use loosely given the poor grammar, improper punctuation and fragmented argument) is saddening at best and infuriating at worst. The author's (whoops, another loose term) argument has so many holes it is obvious it is based more on ignorance and prejudice as opposed to facts and proven scientific inquiry.

John Dewey, an American philosopher, psychologist, and educational reformer indicated that, "Genuine ignorance is... profitable because it is likely to be accompanied by humility, curiosity, and open mindedness; whereas ability to repeat catch-phrases, cant terms, familiar propositions, gives the conceit of learning and coats the mind with varnish waterproof to new ideas.

To that I say, "well said."

How stupid and ignorant are... (Below threshold)

How stupid and ignorant are you??

Paula, I think you misunder... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Paula, I think you misunderstood the direction of my post. My point is that the treatise of Cassy Fiano's argument is based on ignorance, intolerance and kneejerk reaction rather than fact and a sound scientific foundation. Arguments like this are counterproductive because they argue against "the pursuit of happiness" which is guaranteed to us all even those that are younger than 18 years.

I have a transgenered child (7 years old) who is this way, not of choice, but because of the way God made her. It breaks my heart to think that she will have to spend the rest of her life defending herself against people like Cassy Fiano.

Our child transitioned less than a year ago. This was not done without a great deal of research, soul searching, and second guessing. The experiences of families with GID kids are so similar (depression, social anxiety, poor academic achievement) that it is only a matter of time that more empirical evidence is available to support activities like that sponsored by Dr. Spack.

In closing, my child knew from the age of two that she was born in the wrong body. We, like other parents, thought is was a phase and even encouraged her to "act her gender". For anyone to assert that children of this age are oblivious to their physical environment don't understand anything about early child development.

Mike, so, why can't he just... (Below threshold)

Mike, so, why can't he just go through life being in the wrong body? Maybe he was born into the wrong family too, but he's going to have to live with that, apparently. Regardless, people only have one sex that they can ethically conceive as, and fertility is very fragile. Your son's fertility is threatened by hormome treatments, as well as the psychological barriers that are being constructed for him. That is violating his Constitutional right, his basic human right, to marry and procreate with with person of his choice.
MAybe you don't care, but it's not up to you to not care if he is infertile when he gets older. It is his basic human right and you are risking it. I think protecting his ability to grow up and have children is the primary responsibility of parents, and parents that don't protect their children's fertility ought to lose custody. Parenting isn't a right, even to your biological children. It is merely an obligation that is assigned to people based on the best interest of the child, and can be reassigned. Some people aren't fit to be parents.

Your argument looses tracti... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Your argument looses traction almost immediately. Procreation is not, nor has it ever been, directly stated as a fundamental right guaranteed by the Constitution. However, the "pursuit of happiness" is guaranteed as just that, without government interference, without laws to hinder this pursuit and without social interruption from those that don't agree.

To assert that she should "just go through life being in the wrong body" as if that is an acceptable alternative is an absolutely astonishing if not ignorant statement. Children who are transgendered exhibit suicide rates significantly higher than their peers when they are not allowed to express themselves. They go through puberty in absolute agony constantly tortured by the dichotomy between who they are and who they feel themselves to be. Whether they can conceive is the furthest thing from their minds.

I have to take extreme exception to the assertion that our child was "born in [sic] the wrong family." We did not make this decision for our child, she did. The primary responsibility of a parent, in direct contrast to your disjointed statement, is not to protect "his ability to grow up and have children" but to raise a child who is loved, supported, demonstrates the highest degree of character and can make positive contributions to society.

Come on, John. Your argument is absolutely ridiculous.

Well, I think you aren't fi... (Below threshold)

Well, I think you aren't fit to be a parent, if you aren't interested in protecting your child's fertility. The ability to procreate is indeed a "basic civil right of man" and was established in American jurisprudence in Skinner v Oklahoma in 1941. Oklahoma was sterilizing people it thought to be genetically predisposed to criminality, and the court asserted that being allowed to procreate was a fundamental right of man that should be protected, under any circumstance. It is a right that is under fire today, and that is why I focus on it here. States and parents should not be allowed to cavalierly decide that "it is the furthest thing on his mind" or that he doesn't care about it.

The "pursuit of happiness" is not a constitutional right on which any laws are based. Virtually every law is an affront to someone's happiness, or at least their pursuit of it, and I can't think of any constitutional decisions that rested on it. Can you cite one? It is well established that when one's happiness does not conform to the law, one is unhappy, but the law stands.

I'm sorry your child is unhappy and that you are facing a difficult time, and I don't blame you for making the wrong decisions here. You are obviously not alone in feeling that you are doing the right thing, and too many people are too afraid to tell you otherwise. But if it's not too late, you should worry about her [sic] ability to have children.

You are all naive people wi... (Below threshold)
JBS:

You are all naive people with no understanding of how strong the issues of transgender individuals plays a role in society. wake up.

John, you seem to be a "one... (Below threshold)
Mike:

John, you seem to be a "one trick pony" intent on altering facts to fit a very misguided argument. The ability (or do you mean the right) to procreate is NOT guaranteed by anything most of all the Constitution of the United States. It certainly is not included in the Bill of Rights. Procreation may be a basic human issue but it is certainly not a civil one.

Skinner v Oklahoma was a case heard by the Supreme Court whose job is to interpret the Constitution not define it. They indicated that sterilization could not be used as a form of punishment for those caught committing a crime, not to those that are "predisposed" to criminal activity as you assert. How can anyone possibly define what predisposition is and how can that have any relevancy to this discussion?

For you to make the claim that we are unfit as parents when we are trying to do the best we can for our child shows just how jaded and off-balance your statements are.

Right, you're sterilizing y... (Below threshold)

Right, you're sterilizing your son and I'm off-balance? You should be in jail. But again, that's a criticism of the current state of affairs, not of you, who are only following the advice of professionals and "trying to do the best" for your child. Actually, it is that principle that will be used to make people voluntarily give up their own fertility in favor of improved gametes when a doctor tells them that it is for the best for their child. Most people will meekly accept that advice. Your son is part of the plan, as they will also offer him (ok, by then, "her"), a way to procreate using their modified artificial gametes, or if they haven't perfected those yet, they'll offer donated gametes. She's part of the push to make everyone throw away their own genes and fertility and turn to professional agencies for eugenic improvements. You are too.
I think it is much better that some people suffer with psychological issues and hopefully get through them, than that we turn into a eugenic society where no one has conception rights anymore.
And you're wrong about how court cases work. Especially in Skinner, the court declared fertility to be a fundamental right that the state nor parents cannot take away.

At this point I'm not even ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

At this point I'm not even sure how to argue with you given the broken and fragmented basis of your argument and your inability to extract precise meaning from what I am saying. I said your "statements" are off-balance. I didn't say "you" are off-balance. And, once again you are wrong in that the Skinner case indicated that there could be no laws that allow for sterilization (same for abortion). Once again, (and please read this carefully) the Supreme Court only interprets the Constitution it is NOT A LEGISLATIVE branch. Amending the Constitution is the responsibility of Congress with veto power coming from the Executive Branch. You were obviously asleep when this was covered in your civics class.

I never indicated that we are going sterilize our child (where did you even get that in the first place). We have done hours of research on this issues and have consulted everyone from pediatric endocrinologists to counselors specializing in early child development. We know the risks and we are totally aware of the consequences. What we will not do, however, is to allow our thinking to be clouded by illogical and prejudicial rants and raves by people who can't, at any level, fathom the true issue. By incorporating your preconceived notions and holding them as fact is dangerous.

And, I'm the one "who should be in jail"?

The true issue is he's a bo... (Below threshold)

The true issue is he's a boy. Hormones and psychological pressures put his fertility at risk. Our fertility is a basic civil right of man, there needn't be a law to protect it, it is protected by it being a basic civil right of man. Things that threaten someone's fertility, whether they are state policies or parental decisions, should not be allowed. The government should have laws which protect everyone's fertility from reckless endangerment.

Once again, it is not a civ... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Once again, it is not a civil issue. The right to vote is a civil issue. The right to congregate and demonstrate is a civil issue. The right to privacy and speech is a civil issue. All are protected by the Bill of Rights. Procreation is propagated throughout all species and is a bioethical right. Therefore this cannot nor will ever be a legislative issue. Perhaps there will be an amendment to protect gender identity as a civil right but what does that have to do with procreation?

Transgendered children do have the right to choose and all are doing so when they reach the age of consent. It is absolutely and unequivocally their choice.

John,The child is 7.... (Below threshold)
Kari:

John,
The child is 7...she is not being "sterilized." There is a very rigid standard of care for transgendered kids.
She has only made a "social transition". When she starts to go through puberty hormone blockers will be administrated...if the child still feels she is in the wrong body....which she most likey will as gender identity is innate and unchanging.. Hormone blockers allow the child to still grow and mature...but not go through pubery...as going through pubery when one is transgendered is devastating and irriversible. Hormone blockers are completely reversible. When the child is 16, 17 or 18 and old enough to decide herself...she will then decide if she wants the female hormones to make her body match her mind....IF she does not...then the hormone blockers are stopped and the child goes through a male puberty....

And you know John how dare you call Mike an unfit parent? I am the parent of a transgenderd child myself...born a boy but identifies as a girl...and I have met many many other wonderful parents of transgenderd kids through my familie's experience. We are treating a medical condition...just as any loving and caring parent would do.

We dont go blindly into this...many times...we spend years in denial...then we see that for the sake of our child...we cant be in denial anymore...we have to help as would...we do research...we talk to medical professionals...we spend an untold amount of time agonizing on what to do.

In my case, we did have a few choices...FORCE her to not be herself...to supress he whole being and become further depressed and withdrawn...OR we could let her just be herself...thats what we chose....and now she is happy...

Tell me John, when did you know you were a boy, did your parents have to teach that to you...did you have to learn to be a boy or was it natural? People learn many things in life, like how to be closeminded and mean....but the dont learn gender identity...their born with it...sometimes, through no fault of the child or the parents, it doesn't match the body....MOST medical professional do agree with this.

I don't know why they speci... (Below threshold)

I don't know why they specified "civil" in Skinner when they said "We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man." The point is, fertility is a basic fundamental right that should be protected, not carelessly tossed aside. We should even protect adults from carelessly tossing aside their own fertility, perhaps with waiting periods and psychological assessments before it is allowed. It's not just their own issue, because way too often infertile people put pressure on society to condone their use of donor gametes and adoption, which strains family relationships and leads to more family breakdown and children being raised without both parents. It also costs every lots of money, because all the fertility treatments and IVF are paid for by insurance and states have to regulate adoption and the whole thing ought to be free.

LOL! I dont know if your po... (Below threshold)
Kari:

LOL! I dont know if your post to be funny..but it is...

I invite you to view a show... (Below threshold)
Kari:

I invite you to view a show 20/20 aired last spring. Just go to www.youtube.com and search for "My Secret Self" this show is a very informative piece on transgendered kids....

John, you are a broken reco... (Below threshold)
Mike:

John, you are a broken record. I doubt even you totally understand the B.S. coming from your mouth. I know I don't. It appears you are reluctant to consider the total spectrum of the argument insisting to dwell on this one area; fertility. So, I say, go and procreate away.

Kari, I'm not sure giving h... (Below threshold)

Kari, I'm not sure giving hormone blockers is just "letting her be herself". Why not truly just let him be himself, without suggesting drugs, and letting him agonize and cry and be tormented like people have done forever in the past? Would that just have been too difficult for you? Would having a gay, troubled son be embarrassing, so you have to try to make him into a plain old girl (albeit one that won't ever have a baby)?

John, everything you have s... (Below threshold)
Mike:

John, everything you have said up until your last post has been nothing but a bunch of psycho-babble. Most of your statements have been coming, I believe, from an individual who is somewhat paranoid, delusional and completely out-of-touch.

However, your last statement to Kari shows how cruel you really are. Why would any mother allow her child to go through life (that is if suicide doesn't become the only option ending life prematurely) completely miserable and depressed?

You are the one that needs help. God help you.

I can understand a mother m... (Below threshold)

I can understand a mother making short-sighted decisions so her child is happy, but a father really should be thinking about more than his child's superficial happiness. You are both being manipulated and used by the eugenics industry, and your children are convenient pawns. I'm helping them, though, God knows.

John, as someone who is Int... (Below threshold)

John, as someone who is Intersexed, this issue is dear to my heart.

Please look at this video to see how many transsexuals are created in infancy.
Dr Zucker's therapy works in 30% of cases - apart from the suicidal ideation, the depression, and other sequelae he doesn't mention.

Dr Spack and people like him have to deal with the failures.

John, you wrote:

Why not truly just let him be himself, without suggesting drugs, and letting him agonize and cry and be tormented like people have done forever in the past? Would that just have been too difficult for you?
Because it will kill him, likely as not. Now maybe you could do that to your child, see them die of misery, but I couldn't let it happen to mine.

If the kid is just a confused gay, as most of them (about 70% actually) are, then gonadotrophins will be harmless, they merely delay puberty while sexuality and gender identity is sorted out. For the other 30%, it quite literally can save their lives.

To summarise: some kids are born with brains of a different gender to their body at birth. Some kids are born with brains of a different gender to the form their body has been transformed into by surgeons. The two conditions are psychologically indistinguishable. Both sets of kids are so utterly miserable at having a body that doesn't fit that many die. Dr Spack is trying to save them, while making sure that none get wrongly diagnosed.

Have a look at this video too.

They need to change their b... (Below threshold)

They need to change their brains, not their bodies. They can't ever gain the fertility of the other sex, they can only lose the fertility of their original sex. Even intersexed people have one sex which is the most likely to be fertile sex. We should help people's brains match that sex.

John, I am absolutely perpl... (Below threshold)
Mike:

John, I am absolutely perplexed at your compulsion and affinity to all things related to "fertility." Last checked, that is the least concern facing the world's population.

In response to your "change their brains, not their bodies" statement - it shows just how absolutely ignorant and out of touch your thinking is. Most cognitive scientists (and I am sure you will dispute their analyses as well) agree that behavior modification, in most cases, is a sheer and utter failure.

You obviously are only going to hear what you want to hear, focusing only on small minute details, while allowing yourself to become oblivious to the truth.

The TRUTH is that what you are proposing is cruel and inhuman. You cannot mount a credible argument to make me think otherwise and contrary to you, I HAVE considered all possible alternatives.

John Howard wrote:<b... (Below threshold)

John Howard wrote:

They need to change their brains, not their bodies.

Good Idea! How?

I mean, that's like saying "all paraplegics have to do is to grow new spinal chords", or "curing blindness is easy, they just need a new set of eyes".

It would be far easier with our current technology to just give you a leucotomy so you're not bothered by it - and just as ethical.




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