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Lies, Damned Lies, And Misstatements

Earlier this week, Senator Barack Obama made headlines when he spoke with pride about one member of his family's military service. His uncle, you see, had helped to liberate the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

This remark puzzled a lot of people. After all, Obama's mother had no brothers, and Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviet Red Army, not any Americans. Was this another attempt at pandering by Obama?

It's an understandable reaction. After all, Obama has quite a history of just plain making stuff up in hopes of currying favor with voters. He told people in Selma, Alabama that the results of the 1965 civil rights march led to his parents marrying and having him -- although he was born in 1961. He tried to make hay out of a natural disaster when he said a Kansas tornado wiped out a whole town and killed 10,000 people (about five and a half times the total death toll from Hurricane Katrina), when the death toll was 12. And he talked about his personal sense of "racial awakening" being brought about by an article in Life Magazine about the horrific physical and pyschological scarring a black man had suffered trying to "lighten" himself -- an article that never existed.

So, here's Obama in a Memorial Day address, claiming a non-existent relative in the US Army participated in something that the US Army didn't even do. Does it get any crasser than that?

Not so fast. It turns out that this was not shameless pandering, but a couple of genuine misstatements by Obama.

While Obama has no uncles on his mother's side, he did have a great-uncle. And that uncle did participate in the liberation of the Nazi concentration camp at Buchenwald, not the death camp of Auschwitz.

In a lot of families, "uncle" is a pretty loose term. I think only the most painfully precise pinheads would distinguish an uncle from a great-uncle. And Auschwitz is probably the most infamous of the Nazi camps; if someone is tired and recounting a tale from one's childhood, it would come to mind a lot sooner than Buchenwald or Treblinka or Bergen-Belsen.

In the taxonomy of Obama gaffes, this one falls more in line with his other misstatements. As someone who frequently confuses "Iran" and "Iraq" when typing (who the HELL thought it would be a good idea to put two countries next to each other whose names differ only in their last leter? I want that geographer shot immediately, then dug up and shot again.), I can sympathize with him when he confuses Sunrise, Florida and Sunshine, Florida, or says "Sioux Falls" when he means "Sioux City" or refers to "57 states" when he obviously means "47" and is talking about the 48 contiguous states.

But the problem is, he's used up a lot of his good will for the "oops" moments with his "sucking up to voters" moments. On first blush, his uncle story was flagrantly false on its face: there were to easily-disproven facts in it that jumped out at readers. A lot of people just looked at the facts that he has no uncle and the US didn't liberate Auschwitz, and called "bullshit."

This time, that was a bit premature. But on so many other occasions, it was dead-on accurate.

Of course, this could all be avoided if Obama simply got things right the first time.

But I guess that's too much to ask from The Living Embodiment Of Changeful Hopeyness.


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Comments (111)

Ya know JT, he does kinda r... (Below threshold)
epador:

Ya know JT, he does kinda remind me of the 8th dwarf, Hopey. Maybe someone with graphics skills can dig up a picture for us.

On the other hand, he used ... (Below threshold)
yetanotherjohn:

On the other hand, he used the auschwitz story in 2002 in his anti-war speech with a twist. It was his grandfather talking to fellow soldiers who liberated the camp.

Don't mean to sound cynical... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

Don't mean to sound cynical but has anyone confirm the Great Uncle story?

Grandpa joined up on Dec 8t... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

Grandpa joined up on Dec 8th, nope. Great Uncle served in the army, anyone found his military records? They seem to be filed with Hanoi John Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia records. Like the non-existant hat in the briefcase he could have hid in the attic to avoid capture for being AWOL. Just saying this along with 99% of Obambi's tales and facts don't jibe, but 'maybe' Obambi is 100% truthful for the first time in his life.

I love the irony of the rig... (Below threshold)
JFO:

I love the irony of the right-wing carrying on about Obama's gaffe while an ex-spokesman for the WH is exposing it for its lies, propaganda and deception about a war. The silence about that from the right is thunderous.

C'mon Jay, he's just like e... (Below threshold)
libssuck:

C'mon Jay, he's just like every other liberal democrat. Lying idiots, the lot of 'em.

The silence about tha... (Below threshold)

The silence about that from the right is thunderous.

There may not be much discussion on this blog about McClellan, but it was the subject of the entire Bill Bennett, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh shows yesterday. It was the lead story on Fox News, The O'Reilly Show and Hannity&Colmes.

I would hardly characterize that as a thundering silence.

JFO, I'm still waiting for ... (Below threshold)
chris:

JFO, I'm still waiting for DJ's post about how great his man McCain is. Untill then I guess I'll have to settle for Obama-bashing. Also known as ODS.

Hey let's talk about Scott ... (Below threshold)
Amanda:

Hey let's talk about Scott McClellan.....strange that there's not one story about it! HAHA!!! Man I love this!

Some of these things he say... (Below threshold)
crazy:

Some of these things he says may be honest mistakes or misstatements but taken in their entirety it is increasingly clear that he doesn't have enough respect for his audience to put in the time and effort to get these things right or perhaps enough respect for their intelligence to think he'll get caught.

How many voters could go to work and get away with the same thing?

Earlier in his campaign whe... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Earlier in his campaign when he talked about his white grandmother who helped raise him and commented on her racial statements that made him cringe when at the same time he praised the Reverend Wright who is a flagrant racist from the public pulpit he outed himself as a jerk and my impression will never change. But on this particular issue I'll give him a pass. He's basically a bozo.

JayTea:w... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

JayTea:

who the HELL thought it would be a good idea to put two countries next to each other whose names differ only in their last leter? I want that geographer shot immediately, then dug up and shot again.)

Actually, you'd want either a dead Nazi or dead shah....

In 1935, Dr Hjalmar Schacht, the Nazi Economics minister noted the Aryan origin of the Persians and encouraged the Persian Reza Shah Pahlavi to ask foreign delegates to use the term Iran, "land of Aryans" instead of Persia.

from: www.persiansarenotarabs.com/renaming-persia

How deep of a hole are you ... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

How deep of a hole are you guys gonna dig yourself into on this subject and where do I send the shovel to?

The Living Embodiment Of... (Below threshold)

The Living Embodiment Of Changeful Hopeyness.

I thought he was The Living Embodiment of Hopey Changeful New Direction-ness?

My bad.


On the topic:

To err is human; to keep fucking things up over and over again takes a politician.

The <a href="http://www.89i... (Below threshold)
mantis:

The website dedicated to the WWII 89th Infantry Division had the perfect response to wannabe investigative blogger Steve Gilbert:

Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.

Good day

Raymond Kitchell, veteran 89th Inf Div

Another understandable reaction.

Please crawl back under ... (Below threshold)

Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.

Funny, that also works as an appropriate response to Scott McClellan and any one who thinks that man is remotely being a "truth teller."

What is wrong about trying ... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

What is wrong about trying to verify a simple fact?

It is not like the right is trying to do what the left did to Bush. Bush had to release his military records, which wasn't good enough for the MSM and the left. Then they dug even further for more records and that wasn't good enough. They had testimonies from eyes witnesses yet the left took the word of someone who didn't like Bush. After all that, many on the left still claim Bush never served in the military and was not a pilot.

If it can be verify that Obama great uncle served in the 89th during that time, it will be enough. Unlikely will there be many who will ask for physical proof or eyewitnesses accounts that his great uncle was actually one of those who liberate the camp.

McClellan's fat... (Below threshold)
Eric:

McClellan's father, Barr McClellan, was an attorney for the National Labor Relations Board and then for the Federal Power Commission under Democratic President Lyndon Johnson. Barr McClellan also wrote a book about power and Washington: "Blood, Money & Power: How LBJ Killed JFK." Published in 2003, the book claims that Texas attorney -- and Barr McClellan's former boss -- Ed Clark masterminded the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
Barr McClellan has written a second book, "Made in the USA: Corporate Greed, Tax Laws, and the Exportation of America's Future," scheduled for release in July.

Sounds like crazy books and conspiracy theories run in the family with Scott McClellan.

By the way it's kind of hard to argue against a book that hasn't been released yet.

If it can be verify that... (Below threshold)
mantis:

If it can be verify that Obama great uncle served in the 89th during that time, it will be enough.

Hilarious. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Mantis, I'm curious. Did y... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Mantis, I'm curious. Did you have a problem with the media looking into Bush's National Guard Service when he was running for President BOTH times?

Is there something wrong with people questioning some of the things Barack Obama claims?

After all,
Barack Obama said that his father came to America because of the generosity of the Kennedy family. Turns out that wasn't true, the Kennedy donations didn't occur until a year after Obama's father came to the US.

Barack Obama said that his birth was a result of the march on Selma, AL. Turns out that wasn't true either, he was born 4 years before the march on Selma.

Barack Obama says that his uncle helped liberate Auschwitz. Well it's a known fact that he doesn't have an uncle and that Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviets. So was it wrong to question that? Since he has made other misstatements and embellishments is it wrong to verify them?

Peter FAnd you hav... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Peter F

And you have the proof that McClellan is not a truth teller? I'm interested in knowing that inside info you must have.

Did you have a problem w... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Did you have a problem with the media looking into Bush's National Guard Service when he was running for President BOTH times?

I didn't have a problem with it generally, but I did have a problem with the CBS/Rather reporting, sure. However, GWB was running for president. Obama's uncle is not.

Is there something wrong with people questioning some of the things Barack Obama claims?

No, but the appropriate response to certain people like Gilbert, who automatically assume that the candidate is lying, and continue to loudly doubt the service of veterans despite confirmation, is "go fuck yourself, asshole." Kitchell was a little nicer than I would be.

I fully expect the more rabid right-wing bloggers to track Mr. Payne down to hassle the old man and insist he verify the story personally. And inspect his countertops.

JFO, you and the truth will... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JFO, you and the truth will never meet. ww

Eric -I had no pro... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Eric -

I had no problems with them looking at Bush's record - problem was, they never bothered to ask any military personnel specialists what it actually meant. Perhaps because if they HAD, they'd have found out there wasn't any story there.

Having done 13 years in the AF Reserve, handling pay and attendance issues, my take on it all is here... The end result? Bush served, did his time, had sufficient points for a good year. No AWOL issues, no attendance problems that I could see from the listings on-line. You have to know the system - but once you do, it's clear.

It was a non-story, which was why they kept the experts out of it.

McCleland 's book is bought... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

McCleland 's book is bought and paid for by George Soros. The radical left love the filthy rich like George Soros. Obama is a proven liar and misstatement issuer so far. The George Soros moonbat left is in the tank for Obama because of his extreme leftist agenda. Again, the moonbat is thunderously spouting their propaganda to cover up for Obama. AS Bunyan pointed out, lying is a job requirement for leftist politicians, esp Obama. No wonder the moonbat left loves him.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/05/mcclellan_book_published_by_so.html

...and publish his address,... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

...and publish his address, his phone number, his license plate, the schools his grandchildren attend...

For all the distraction, th... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

For all the distraction, the moonbat left loves Obama because he is a good liar on their behalf.

JFO - "And you have the... (Below threshold)
marc:

JFO - "And you have the proof that McClellan is not a truth teller? I'm interested in knowing that inside info you must have."

Isn't the reverse also true?

Those that have jumped on McClellan's book and are riding it like a sway-backed horse to a bash Bush party also should be circumspect in what to believe?

That's especially true when you consider no one has the book in hand and can only judge by what's been excerpted by the publisher and designed to stir the pot of book sales.

Oh wait... I've asked the wrong person, JFO is sitting atop that old sway-backed war horse: "I love the irony of the right-wing carrying on about Obama's gaffe while an ex-spokesman for the WH is exposing it for its lies, propaganda and deception about a war."

Sorry, my bad. I should have known JFO would go all pot and kettlish!

mantis - "No, but the a... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis - "No, but the appropriate response to certain people like Gilbert, who automatically assume that the candidate is lying,"

Was it easy for you to assume that mantis? Isn't it just as possible Gilbert knew of the vary, ahemm, "miststatements" outlined in this very post and rightfully questioned his history?

I didn't have a pr... (Below threshold)
Eric:
I didn't have a problem with it generally, but I did have a problem with the CBS/Rather reporting, sure. However, GWB was running for president. Obama's uncle is not.

No but Obama is running for President and he has embellished the truth before. Steve Gilbert was trying to get INDEPENDENT confirmation of a claim by Obama that had already been shown to be faulty. It wasn't his uncle, it was his great uncle and it wasn't Auschwitz.

The only confirmation of the correction came from the Obama campaign itself. Should that be accepted as the final answer?

Is that the standard? A candidate can make any statement, including one that is verifiably faulty, make a correction and end it by saying "Trust Me". No need for the media to verify any claim by any candidate. Every candidate is perfectly trustworthy. Candidates for President never ever lie.

Is that the standard we should expect for all candidates? Because that seems to be the standard that the MSM is applying to Obama.

Read what you link to, LAI.... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Read what you link to, LAI. PublicAffairs has published books by Soros, but nowhere does that "story" allude to Soros having "bought and paid for" McClellan's book. You made that up, for obvious reasons.

If it were published by Regnery, would everything therein then be 100% truthful?

People say things. People have motives. The truthfulness of a person's statements is entirely separate from their motivation for making the statements. Vindictive assholes can still say things that are true. Read the book, and verify or falsify what's in it, rather than crowing about George Soros' grand conspiracy.

Was it easy for you to a... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Was it easy for you to assume that mantis?

Yes. I'm familiar with Gilbert's blog.

MarcNo one needs M... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Marc

No one needs McClellan's book to bash Bush. All you have to do is look at the wreckage he's leaving behind. Idiots like you can stand up and holler hurrah hurrah while someone else comes in to clean up the mess.

Keep riding the horse JFO (... (Below threshold)
marc:

Keep riding the horse JFO (ignore the premise of my comment and issue a non-response), it suits you well.

I am constantly amused by t... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

I am constantly amused by the BDS and hypocrisy of the moonbat left. THey hate lying so much that they are nominating another liar to be the presidential candidate and willingly carrying the Kool-Aid for him. Maybe the moonbat left loves the mess the Dem congress has been delivering since 2006. THe moonbat left cannot be honest about the disasters the dems have brought since they came into power. ANd they are mad that these dems haven't done enough to reverse the trend in Iraq to hand the terrorists the victory there.

willingly carrying the K... (Below threshold)
mantis:

willingly carrying the Kool-Aid

::falls down laughing, spills Kool-Aid::

JLawson,I didn't hav... (Below threshold)
Eric:

JLawson,
I didn't have a problem with the media looking into Bush NG service either. That's their job and they should do that sort of thing. But after a while, it started to look more like a witch hunt than a search for the truth, culminating in the Rathergate debacle.

If there is nothing wrong with the truth, why tell Steve Gilbert to fuck off? When 60 Minutes knocks on some guy's door and he tells them to get lost, what conclusion do most people come to?

:falls down laughing, spill... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

:falls down laughing, spills Kool-Aid::
----------------------------------------
Must be a heavy drinker of that Obama Kool-Aid. Must be fainting at his rallies as well!

If there is nothing wron... (Below threshold)
mantis:

If there is nothing wrong with the truth, why tell Steve Gilbert to fuck off?

Because he's an asshole.

So are Dan Rather and Mike ... (Below threshold)
Eric:

So are Dan Rather and Mike Wallace. But that doesn't stop them from doing their job?

Mantis - "Yes. I'm fami... (Below threshold)
marc:

Mantis - "Yes. I'm familiar with Gilbert's blog."

So you assume Gilbert is incorrect each and everytime he speaks or writes? Very cute and becoming broad-brush you have there, where did you purchase it?

As a side note, as a 20 year vet I'm offended the a spokesman for the 89th Inf Div would reacted as they did to what appears to be a professionally written request.

A polite, "we'd rather not become involved" would have been sufficient.

MarcYour comments ... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Marc

Your comments never have a premise other than to repeat whatever rightwing mantra is popular for the day.Your comments are eminently ignorable. I'd rate you right up there with LoveAmericaImmigrant, and Scrapiron et al.

mantis - "Because he's ... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis - "Because he's an asshole."

That's your assesment and based on presumably you reading his blog, now your assuming they read his blog and came to the same conclusion.

How convenient.

JFO - "Your comments ne... (Below threshold)
marc:

JFO - "Your comments never have a premise other than to repeat whatever rightwing mantra is popular for the day."

And just what have you contributed to this thread?

And JFO is a known moonbat ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

And JFO is a known moonbat who simply spout his mindless mantra every time. Looks like the JFO moonbats are running out of args and resorting to their usual moonbat practice again!

A reasonable question to a ... (Below threshold)
JFO:

A reasonable question to a commenters assertion

"When 60 Minutes knocks on ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"When 60 Minutes knocks on some guy's door and he tells them to get lost, what conclusion do most people come to?"

That they don't, for whatever reason, want to talk to 60 Minutes. They've not done themselves too proud over the years with some of their stories, and tend to put emphasis on the sensational, not the factual.

So are Dan Rather and Mi... (Below threshold)
mantis:

So are Dan Rather and Mike Wallace. But that doesn't stop them from doing their job?

I take it you didn't hear about what happened to Dan Rather's job.

So you assume Gilbert is incorrect each and everytime he speaks or writes?

No, I assume he's an asshole who would never admit the truth if it didn't fit into his pre-conceived conclusions. That's his MO.

As a side note, as a 20 year vet I'm offended the a spokesman for the 89th Inf Div would reacted as they did to what appears to be a professionally written request.

He's not a spokesman for the division, he runs a website dedicated to preserving their memory. And I'm sure he doesn't give a shit if you're offended. He responded to requests from honest people in a much more kind manner.

BTW, Mike Turk thinks McClellan is telling the truth, FWIW.

That's your assesment an... (Below threshold)
mantis:

That's your assesment and based on presumably you reading his blog, now your assuming they read his blog and came to the same conclusion.

He included a link to his blog in the request he emailed, puffing himself up as "probably the first to note the error in Mr. Obama's first claims about his 'uncle.'" I assume they followed the link and arrived at the same conclusion, yes.

JFO - "A reasonable que... (Below threshold)
marc:

JFO - "A reasonable question to a commenters assertion"

You mean like this in your first comment of the thread?

"I love the irony of the right-wing carrying on about Obama's gaffe while an ex-spokesman for the WH is exposing it for its lies, propaganda and deception about a war. The silence about that from the right is thunderous."

Sorry, nothing to see there except continuing to ride the bash Bush bandwagon and spurred on by carefully chosen excerpts by a publisher looking to pimp a book.

mantis - "I assume the... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis - "I assume they followed the link and arrived at the same conclusion, yes."

Thanks for confirming your broad-brush.

Oh, and yes that too. ... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Oh, and yes that too.

So you too must also have inside information that what McClellan asserts is false?

But Bush's people <a href="... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

But Bush's people admit that the book is full of truth.

Are you calling Bush's people liars?

mantis - "He's not a sp... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis - "He's not a spokesman for the division, he runs a website dedicated to preserving their memory. And I'm sure he doesn't give a shit if you're offended. He responded to requests from honest people in a much more kind manner."

While I stand corrected, it's a minor distinction when he is representing, or purports to, the organization as some sort of historian.

And BTW, do you often include worthless links in your comments that return 403 forbidden warnings that allegedly support your position but can't be verified because no one has access?

Mantis, "BTW, Mike Turk thi... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Mantis, "BTW, Mike Turk thinks McClellan is telling the truth, FWIW. "


Mike Turk (from Mantis' link): "I have no idea what Scott did or did not experience in the White House and have no way of knowing whether his specific accusations are true or false. "

Mantis, you didn't even read what Mike Turk had to say. What's funny, is that the point Mike Turk and Scott McClellen are making is being lost because of the people playing "Gotcha Politics" with the book itself.

JFO - "So you too must ... (Below threshold)
marc:

JFO - "So you too must also have inside information that what McClellan asserts is false?"

I've made no judgments on the book whatsoever and probably never will.

I could care less about books written as "political tell-alls" no matter what side of the aisle they come from. They have been in the past, and will continue to be an utter waste of time.

Eric... you got into the li... (Below threshold)
marc:

Eric... you got into the link? All I got from the mantis link and the root of the url was a 403.

The Text of the Mike Turk p... (Below threshold)
Eric:

The Text of the Mike Turk post that Mantis Linked:
To be clear about McClellan

First, I have to give HuffPo credit. I exchanged e-mail with Sam Stein shortly before walking out the door to lunch, and before I had finished my brisket at Capitol Q (just six blocks from my office) my e-mail started buzzing with questions/comments about this post. They work fast.

As for the content, let me expand on what I told Sam.

I have no idea what Scott did or did not experience in the White House and have no way of knowing whether his specific accusations are true or false.

My point to Sam, and the point to my Twitter comment last night, was that Scott has written a book about the nastiness of politics in general and the notion of the permanent campaign specifically, that are right on the money. The excerpts I have read of the book make a very salient and very meaningful point - this town and the culture of constant political battle, do great harm to the process of actually governing.

When you are unwilling to admit a mistake for fear of creating an opening your opposition can exploit for partisan gain, you create a cycle where bad choices become compounded upon one another. I think that is a syndrome that we saw emerge from the Clinton years and grow worse during the Bush years. There is simply no room for honest discussion anymore. There is merely partisan scorekeeping and score settling.

I also believe, as Matthew Dowd noted in the New York Times, that Bush has squandered the second term that 62 million people gave him.

He criticized the president as failing to call the nation to a shared sense of sacrifice at a time of war, failing to reach across the political divide to build consensus and ignoring the will of the people on Iraq. He said he believed the president had not moved aggressively enough to hold anyone accountable for the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and that Mr. Bush still approached governing with a "my way or the highway" mentality reinforced by a shrinking circle of trusted aides.

Believe it or not, there are more than a handful of people who work in politics and become involved because they fundamentally believe that we can change the world we live in. Matt referred to the idea in his NYT interview.

"I'm a big believer that in part what we're called to do -- to me, by God; other people call it karma -- is to restore balance when things didn't turn out the way they should have," Mr. Dowd said. "Just being quiet is not an option when I was so publicly advocating an election."

I think McClellan's interview on Today this morning echoed much of that same sentiment. These are people who worked tirelessly to elect a President in which they saw so much more than what was to come. McClellan says they got caught up playing the Washington game. I believe that is true, and I believe almost everyone recognizes that is true.

As I told Sam, I think McClellan's book should be viewed through that prism. The media and the Administration may portray this as a gotcha perpetrated by Scott, but I think that discounts the larger message. It is that message that I agree with. For that reason, I fear the typical Washington response to discredit the messenger will force us to lose sight of the message.

I am a believer. I think people can change their world by getting involved. Unfortunately, this town tests my faith in that idea every day. Watching Scott being savaged for fighting for that ideal is testing it again today.

And BTW, do you often in... (Below threshold)
mantis:

And BTW, do you often include worthless links in your comments that return 403 forbidden warnings that allegedly support your position but can't be verified because no one has access?

Link works fine, assface.

Mantis, you didn't even read what Mike Turk had to say.

Yes, I did. This is what I was referring to:

My point to Sam, and the point to my Twitter comment last night, was that Scott has written a book about the nastiness of politics in general and the notion of the permanent campaign specifically, that are right on the money. The excerpts I have read of the book make a very salient and very meaningful point - this town and the culture of constant political battle, do great harm to the process of actually governing.

What's funny, is that the point Mike Turk and Scott McClellen are making is being lost because of the people playing "Gotcha Politics" with the book itself.

Agreed. That's why I haven't commented on it yet (other than to note the interesting comments of someone who worked with McClellan in the WH at the time). The publisher will always push the salacious or shocking angles to sell units. I'll wait and see the book before I comment.

what is Barak Obama's Great... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

what is Barak Obama's Great-Uncle's name?

a huge percentage of the WWII records are online now...i'll go look 'em up!

should be able to find out:
(a) when/where he enlisted or was inducted
(b) branch of service
(c) Theater of operations
(d) discharge date

Reading Mike Turk's article... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Reading Mike Turk's article, I agree with much of his point. There is a real gotcha mentality with everything from both parties. How can anyone admit mistakes when it will only become a partisan dog fight?

Agreed. That's ... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Agreed. That's why I haven't commented on it yet (other than to note the interesting comments of someone who worked with McClellan in the WH at the time). The publisher will always push the salacious or shocking angles to sell units. I'll wait and see the book before I comment.

That's not what you said. You said "BTW, Mike Turk thinks McClellan is telling the truth, FWIW. " That is a blanket statement that Mike Turk agrees with Scott McClellan therefore implying that he endorsed all of the sensational aspects of the story too.

p.s. Obama's Great-Uncle is... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

p.s. Obama's Great-Uncle is Charles T. Payne

Obama claimed also claimed his Uncle enlisted on December 8th, 1941.

Several Charles T. Paynes served in WWII. NONE enlisted in 1941.

Need more bio info on Payne

mantis - "Link works fi... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis - "Link works fine, assface."

So, you are assuming I lied, assume the link would work for everyone, (when it clearly hasn't) in addition to resorting to the normal childlike name calling reminiscent of barneyG2000 and few others that have had Thor's Hammer dropped on their despicable asses.

In that case I feel fully justified in saying this:

mantis you can pack pack sand where the sun don't shine and shit broken glass next week.

That is a blanket statem... (Below threshold)
mantis:

That is a blanket statement that Mike Turk agrees with Scott McClellan therefore implying that he endorsed all of the sensational aspects of the story too.

He can't confirm things he didn't witness, but he certainly seems to believe McClellan. Thus my comment that Turk thinks McClellan is telling the truth. Do you have some reason to believe he doesn't?

chris: "JFO, I'm still wait... (Below threshold)

chris: "JFO, I'm still waiting for DJ's post about how great his man McCain is."

Just out of morbid curiosity, chris, just how stoned were you when you wrote that?

1. McCain has no relevance to this thread.

2. Ths is not even a thread that I wrote (Jay Tea is the author, check the byline you moron).

3. I do not personally like McCain very much, a fact well known to the regular readers here. I support him because of the alternative. Your point is therefore equally vapid, illogical, and void of accuracy.


So, you are assuming I l... (Below threshold)
mantis:

So, you are assuming I lied,

No, but I did react to the implication in your comment, which was quite clear, assface.

Justrand, you can find more... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Justrand, you can find more info here:

Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there.

For those who seek to minimize the horrors of Ohrdruf since it was a 'work' camp and not a 'death' camp, we have but one word: shame. Ironically, this argument has been made to us time and time again by various Holocaust-deniers and other pro-Nazi groups. We will let the testimony of survivors and veterans speak for themselves.

The second paragraph is referring to this asshole, among others.

First link should go <a hre... (Below threshold)
mantis:

First link should go here

He can't confirm t... (Below threshold)
Eric:
He can't confirm things he didn't witness, but he certainly seems to believe McClellan. Thus my comment that Turk thinks McClellan is telling the truth. Do you have some reason to believe he doesn't?

Please clarify. Turk believes McClellan in what regard? Turk believes McClellan on all aspects of the book, including the salacious stuff? Or Turk believes McClellan is writing about the hyperpartisanship in Washington? Or is it something else?

Looks like Obama has a hist... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Looks like Obama has a history of embelishment. The hypocrisy of the left over Dan Quayle 's potatoe gaffee (compared to Obama's big league embellishment) is clear. No matter how they try to spin, Obama is a known fabricator of facts. At the very least, he is counting on the moonbats in the media to sell the Kool-Aid for him.


http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65577

Turk believes McClellan ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Turk believes McClellan in what regard?

Well, seeing as how Turk knows the man, doesn't dispute any of what he wrote, and agrees with his central premise, I can assume that he believes the evidence McClellan presents to support that premise (as much as he's read, anyway). Especially when he says stuff like this:

Feeling for Scott McLellan. Nice getting savaged for saying what everyone knows to be true anyway.
Obama gets a pass, for now,... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Obama gets a pass, for now, but if he's elected President then the standard changes. The standard President Obama will have to live up to is the same as that applied to President Bush. Under that standard a mistake is a lie. Also, deciding an issue based on the majority view of "experts" is cherry picking. And yes, if giving a speech in front of a sign or banner, it's what that sign or banner says that's the President's message regardless of the contents of the speech itself. Liberals created that standard and now their President will be judged by it (assuming he's elected).

Turk flat out says that he ... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Turk flat out says that he doesn't know if McClellan's accusations are true or false. So what is the "what everyone knows to be true?"

Is it the salacious stuff or is it the hyperpartisanship stuff?

My reading of Turk's article is that the "what everyone knows to be true" is that Washington has become hyperpartisan, and that the nastiness of it all is damaging to the role of government.

My point to Sam, and the point to my Twitter comment last night, was that Scott has written a book about the nastiness of politics in general and the notion of the permanent campaign specifically, that are right on the money. The excerpts I have read of the book make a very salient and very meaningful point - this town and the culture of constant political battle, do great harm to the process of actually governing.
mantis - "First link sh... (Below threshold)
marc:

mantis - "First link should go here."

Now that's funny. First you assume a previous link posted works for everyone one and go on a fifth-grade invective party.

Then you have to issue forth a mea culpa on a subsequent link posted that was incorrect.

Thanks, I needed a pick-me-up for the week.

Obama only made an error st... (Below threshold)

Obama only made an error stating the correct name of which Nazi death camp a more distant family relative helped to liberate and the psychological problems the horrors of the camp created for him. This was a simple mistake getting the name of the camp wrong because the relative wasn't even a close, but distant one. Who out here really knows every detail of all of their distant cousins or uncles? This is really reaching for nothing here.

Let's talk about the real issues like getting the Iraq War wrong that's killed 1.2 million Iraqis and created 2 million refugees or getting the economy wrong, massive food inflation, or oil at $130 a barrel, up significantly from the $28 a barrel when Bush wss elected 1n November 2000.

Give it up Eric, mantis is ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Give it up Eric, mantis is on full spin cycle after being shown as a disingenuous hack by you in the first place.

I gotta go anyway. Mantis,... (Below threshold)
Eric:

I gotta go anyway. Mantis, I think if you stop and look at it. We both fundamentally agree on what Mike Turk was really talking about.

Hooson - "and the psych... (Below threshold)
marc:

Hooson - "and the psychological problems the horrors of the camp created for him."

And you know his Great-Uncle actually suffered and hide in a basement (or attic I don't remember which) for six months?

Given Obama's previous Hillary-like cork-screw landing type "embellishments" why would you give that part of the story any credibility? Got a reference?

Speaking of refs - "Let's talk about the real issues like getting the Iraq War wrong that's killed 1.2 million Iraqis"

Got any refs, and don't try to trot out the old, tired and false Lancet Study crap.

Looks like things get signi... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Looks like things get significantly worse since the election of the DEm congress in 2006. I guess the Dems are busy cementing the liberal culture of corruption. THe long list of Obama 's embellishment is clear except to the die-hard supporters. He cannot even be honest about his 20 year relationship withe Wright for example. Oh yes, the IRaqui are so tired of the terrorists and the "insurgents". Pelosi attributed the surge success to Iran 's goodwill now. This is simply another example of lying as a job requirement for leftist politicians.
I guess sexism, racism, anti-semitisim can be tolerated on the left with the nomination of Obama.

BTW, we can thank liberals ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

BTW, we can thank liberals for high gas prices and food prices as well given their religion of global warming. It is not hard to predict the growth in demand from Asia. The moonbat left 's insane policies reduce supplies in the face of rising demand. Michigan is another example of what will be like if Obama becomes the president.

No wonder Obama has to run ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

No wonder Obama has to run on a slogan of hope and change. We should be afraid of the hope and change the dems have brought since 2006!

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/05/obamas_ties_to_acorn_more_subs.html
Obama's Ties To ACORN More Substantial than first believed
Rick Moran
You've heard of Moveon.org and Code Pink - two radical leftist groups seeking to elect out and out socialists to public office and who are fierce opponents of the capitalist sysetm.

But have you heard of ACORN?

Show me the uncle! I'll sh... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

Show me the uncle! I'll show you the bus.

Somebody take the time to e... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Somebody take the time to explain the oil business to Paul and where most of our oil comes from. Gosh liberals are hard to teach. ww

"Wouldn't you know it, not ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

"Wouldn't you know it, not only is Obama surprised to find his friend of 20 years spouting the sort of rhetoric for which he's famous in Chicago for spouting, but Pfleger himself sounds surprised. Amazing how much he and his circle of confidants managed to miss about their own behavior over the past few, er, decades."
Obama "disappointed," Pfleger "deeply sorry" for comments about Hillary

chris says:<blockquot... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

chris says:

I'm still waiting for DJ's post about how great his man McCain is.

You'll be waiting a long time, chris. DJ has never been in favor of McCain, even if he is better than "57 states" Obama.

"Of course I'm going to mis... (Below threshold)
jp2:

"Of course I'm going to misspeak and I've done it on numerous occasions and I probably will do in the future. I regret that when I divert attention to something that I've said from my message but you know that's just life, and I'm happy frankly with the way I operate, otherwise it would be a lot less fun," McCain says.

Let's talk about t... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Let's talk about the real issues like getting the Iraq War wrong that's killed 1.2 million Iraqis and created 2 million refugees

From what we know about Saddam and his nearly completed corruption of the UN, leaving him in power may have been far more costly. The point is no one can know removing Saddam was the wrong choice because we can't know what the cost of leaving him in power would have been. History's view of Bush may be much different than the current view of liberals.

or getting the economy wrong, massive food inflation

The biggest single cause is the growing demand for these goods because of the growing economies in China and India. Yes, it's the fault of Bush and Republicans for spreading prosperity around the world and for promoting free markets.

or oil at $130 a barrel, up significantly from the $28 a barrel when Bush was elected 1n November 2000.

Once again it's a supply and demand issue. Republicans have been trying to increase domestic supply for 25 years, but it's always blocked by democrats at the behest of radical environmentalists. Democrates recently defeated yet another bill to drill in the north slope of Alaska. The excuse is always that it won't have any effect on the price of gas for years, but they have been saying the same thing for over 20 years. It's time to drill again in the U.S. It's time to fast track nuclear power and open yucca mountain. It's time federal money was spent on energy research like it's spent on space exploration. It's time the U.S. demanded a full audit of the IPCC and correct it's junk science.

And re: McClellan's book, h... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

And re: McClellan's book, here might be an article of interest with this excerpt:
"Scott and I had breakfast about a year and half and he told me it was going to be a good book for the president. But something changed in the last six months. I talked to him two days ago and he said an editor had tweaked it. These are Scott's words and Scott has to stand by them," he said."

Who the editor was and what was "tweaked" would be good things to find out.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,359600,00.html

Great source Medusa...an an... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Great source Medusa...an anonymous source with Fox News...where employees openly hope that Obama is assassinated...

Grandpa joined up on Dec... (Below threshold)

Grandpa joined up on Dec 8th, nope.
Obama said grandpa signed up the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed (Dec. 8, 1941).
In reality, (we invite liberals to visit!) grandpa signed up June 18, 1942.

jp2Sarcasm only wo... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

jp2

Sarcasm only works when you read the article and know what you're talking about:

"Former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, who worked closely with McClellan, told FOX News he was "heart-broken" by the book's allegations."

ARI FLEISCHER is the "source" who is being quoted. Of course the editor and the official aren't going to be named in the article and requires research.

"where employees openly hop... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

"where employees openly hope that Obama is assassinated...(?)

Speaking of sources... a link to back up this bitter, sarcastic accusation, please.

Try googling Liz Trotta, an... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Try googling Liz Trotta, and maybe watching the news...

"Try googling Liz Trotta, a... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

"Try googling Liz Trotta, and maybe watching the news..."

Nope, that's your responsibility. You make an accusation, you back it up.

Oddly enough, even Hillary ... (Below threshold)

Oddly enough, even Hillary thinks Fox is fairer than MSNBC...

Newsmax.com - Hillary Admits Fox News Is Fair In a surprising admission, Hillary Clinton says Fox News Channel has actually been fairer to her presidential campaign than liberal MSNBC. Clinton stated in an interview that aired on station WJLA in Washington, D.C., that her staff had delivered to her "some independent study" suggesting that "in terms of the fairness of the coverage," Fox has treated her campaign more fairly than MSNBC.
Gee. Maybe you need to rethink 'fairness', jp2, and redefine it as accuracy in reporting instead of adherence to your ideology regardless of facts.
Why do I hear an anguished ... (Below threshold)

Why do I hear an anguished Vader-like "NOOOOO!" echoing in the background? (grin)

http://vaderfortune.ytmnd.com/

Again, great sources. Newsm... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Again, great sources. Newsmax? Really?

Sigh - Medusa - this is my last favor for you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjYpkvcmog0&eurl=http://blogs.citypages.com/gop/2008/05/fox_news_commen.php

"Sigh - Medusa - this is my... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

"Sigh - Medusa - this is my last favor for you..."
(Thank God!) Dude! She's referring to what Hillary implied as a reason why she is staying in the race. Also, Newsmax is only relaying what HILLARY said. Would you like to write them and accuse them also of lying about Hillary?!

I thought this thread was a... (Below threshold)
epador:

I thought this thread was about Hopey, NOT Dopey. Boy, jp2 et all set me rite there.

Boy, jp2 et all set me rite... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

Boy, jp2 et all set me rite there.
-----------------------------------
They know that Obama is a known/proven fabricator. So all they can do is to distract. BTW, they hate lying so much that they keep nominating these "storytellers" to be their presidential candidates.

I add one observation about... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

I add one observation about Obama 's pattern of using people for his own political career (shamelessly btw). He threw his white grandma under the bus for his insincere talk on race. Then he threw his pastor/mentor of 20 long years, who helps start his political career in Chicago. Now use his white great uncle again as a ploy for his cheap talking point. Looks like he is a good fit for the modern dem party.

Have We Heard of Obama's Uncle Before?


What bothers me about this statement is not that Obama calls his great-uncle "uncle" (I do that myself), or that he doesn't personally know that Uncle Ralph could not have liberated Auschwitz, since the Russians did that, but rather:

1) he doesn't think facts important enough to have a staff member check his old family stories before sharing them

and, more importantly

2) the point of his telling the story was not that his uncle was a hero, but rather a victim, spending several months holed up in an attic, upon his return from the war.

That's especially true w... (Below threshold)
Brian:

That's especially true when you consider no one has the book in hand and can only judge by what's been excerpted by the publisher and designed to stir the pot of book sales.

Wrong again, marc.

Hmm, wrong about that, wrong about the guy who runs the web site. Following your rules about Obama, we should now write you off as a liberal and a liar.

How about this one, jp2?<br... (Below threshold)

How about this one, jp2?

"CLINTON CAMPAIGN CHAIR TERRY MCAULIFFE SPEAKING TO FOX NEWS ON APRIL 22: Hillary has won all the states we have to win in the general election. Absolutely critical. I just got word that literally thousands of people are going to HillaryClinton.com, signed up. They like her fight. And they like what she is saying. And they are ready to take this thing on. And let me congratulate FOX because you were the first ones to call it for Hillary Clinton. Fair and balanced FOX. You beat them all."
Or would Terry McAuliffe be a bogus source? Maybe this one? How about this?
Inside Cable News :: Shuster: Hillary Clinton compliments FNC? :: February :: 2008
JOHN HARRIS: Senator, you were offended the other day for reasons that I think a lot of people understood by comments that were made on MSNBC. And in the wake of that, I heard from some of the people on your staff who say, to their surprise, they actually think that Fox News is giving you a better break than MSNBC. Is that your perception?
SENATOR CLINTON: Well, there was some independent study that my staff sent me -- we didn't do it -- but it was some independent study which seemed to suggest that, that in terms of the fairness of the coverage -- you know, look, I'm a mom first. I'm a candidate second. And, you know, I really am troubled by this pattern of behavior and comments that you hear.
Just Google up "hillary says fox news is fair".

I realize it's not what you've been telling yourself all along, but you'll cope.

Eventually.

we should now write you off... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

we should now write you off as a liberal and a liar.
----------------------------------
Yes, using your own standard, we do know that you are a liberal and a liar!

No wonder the moonbat left ... (Below threshold)
LoveAmerica, Immigrant:

No wonder the moonbat left loves Obama. Just look at the company he keeps .

Now I know why JFO (Just Fr... (Below threshold)
jhow66:

Now I know why JFO (Just Frigging Obnoxious) is here. He takes the place of old "lee lee". lol

Brian - "Hmm, wrong abo... (Below threshold)
marc:

Brian - "Hmm, wrong about that, wrong about the guy who runs the web site. Following your rules about Obama, we should now write you off as a liberal and a liar."

Come the the "party" 12 hours after the fact and that's all you have?

First of all I've never been written off by anyone but you, unlike you who was given up for brain dead long ago. You should know the source is highly considered.

Put another way you can pack sand in your ass 'til you shit broken glass for all I care about your opinion.

Secondly, if you have any delusions that everyone who has commented on the book in this thread has had their hands on it by making an assumption based on your NPR link you need your flux capacitor adjusted.

Now, go ahead and parse my use of "all" until the broken glass spews forth from your rectum.

First of all I've never ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

First of all I've never been written off by anyone but you

Ha! You don't pay much attention, do you?

Put another way you can pack sand in your ass 'til you shit broken glass

Why don't you just tell the teacher on me? Say, was that you I saw the other day?

Secondly, if you have any delusions that everyone who has commented on the book in this thread has had their hands

Didn't say that. I just showed that your previous assertion was flat-out wrong. Interesting that your response is to lie about what I said just so you can attack a strawman. Typical, but Interesting.

There isn't one damn thing ... (Below threshold)
JFO:

There isn't one damn thing interesting about marc.

I grant you that you're cer... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

I grant you that you're certainly interesting, JFO. In a "case study" sort of way.




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