Come on now Jay. You know that facts, logic, and reason are all just "distractions" as far as Obama and His supporters are concerned.

How these people allowed to get away with such unmitigated donkey crappola is a testament that our freedom of speech rights are firmly in tact. Despite what the left wants us to believe.

Yeah, it's the democrats' fault that McCain thinks it's ok to have American troops in Iraq for a hundred years. Tell me again who blames who for all their problems?

Funny - commenting is not allowed for the video. I guess they don't want dissonance in their little echo chamber.

Hmmm...been in Japan and Europe for 70 years, Korea for 60...anybody think we'll be "out of" those places in less than 100 years? I guess Iraq is 'special'? Or is it because we are no longer suffering casualties there...kind of like the way McCain said that it would be Ok with him to stay in Iraq if we were no longer suffering casualities there?

Or is this just a reason to lie about McCain, max? Nawwwwww!

wow, some of that is really unclear...sorry about that...the gist is that it is 'ok' to still be in germany 70 years later because we're no longer taking casualties there, which is the same way McCain referred to Iraq, that if we're not taking losses it's fine with him if we stay. Sorry if there was confusion related to my vague use of pronouns.

The baby was cute. Fine, lady. Just tell Alex not to volunteer.

I guess Iraq is 'special'?

Yes, it is. Do you or Senator McCain have some idea of how and when we will stop suffering casualties in Iraq, enabling this peaceful 100 years of sunshine and roses?

Btw, I think it's a dumb ad, too.

The same way we did in the other places --time. But of coarse you must be blind to that fact.

If the left is SO concerned about the lives and futures of kids, one would think they'd be 'pro-life',,, right?

The same way we did in the other places --time. But of coarse you must be blind to that fact.

I'm not blind to anything, but you surely are adept at ignoring the huge number of factors that differentiate Iraq from Germany, Japan, and Korea.

I listed a number of things that Iraq lacks that Germany and Japan had in a thread back in November. I'll reproduce it here. I didn't do Korea, but you get the point.

Some of the more obvious things that those countries had at the time of occupation that are missing in Iraq:

Japan
- Total ethnic and national unity
- Formal surrender, i.e. legitimate occupation with endorsement from the Emperor
- Well formed plans for reconstruction in place long before the war was over
- Government structure intact
- Tradition of democracy and civil society
- Isolation from foreign (non-US) influence
- Strict control over sources of information by US occupation
- Little to no armed resistance
- No terrorism

Western Germany
- Ethnic and national unity
- Formal surrender, i.e. legitimate occupation
- Well formed plans for reconstruction in place long before the war was over
- Intact civil bureaucracy
- Tradition of liberal democracy and civil society
- Attractiveness of cooperation with Allied occupation relative to Soviets in the east
- Strict control over sources of information by occupation
- Little to no armed resistance
- No terrorism

I do like your explanation, though, jhow. You should lend it to Senator McCain: "Don't worry, everything in Iraq will work out through the magic of waiting."

"- Little to no armed resistance
- No terrorism"

You're kidding, right? Good one.

Incidentally, neither I nor McCain need to come up with 'an answer'...it's already been provided and its name is 'Petraeus'.

Oh, that's right, things haven't improved, my bad.

Dear Obama:

You can't have my daughter!

You're kidding, right?

Do you really believe there was sustained, coordinated resistance in Japan and Germany after surrender? Do tell.

Ok, so we have the "magic of waiting" proposal from jhow, and the "magical general who will make the various fighting groups in Iraq lay down their weapons and hug" proposal from Falze. Very convincing. Anyone else?

"Or is this just a reason to lie about McCain, max?"

What lie?

Mantis, you crack me up.

I'm so glad you did a post about that stupid ad. I saw it last night for the first time, and I was TICKED OFF. The joy of DVR is that I see very little in the way of commercials, but happened to see that one.

If it weren't for the fact that thousands of morons saw it, believed every word, and will be voting for Obama, it would be funny.

The funny part is that this woman will have no say in the matter once Alex is 18. Maybe Alex will play this stupid ad for his mom as he signs his commitment papers.

Do you really believe there was sustained, coordinated resistance in Japan and Germany after surrender? Do tell.

Yes. At least in Germany, where armed resistance lasted several years past the formal surrender date. There were a number of ad-hoc guerrilla bands running around causing trouble well into the occupation era, and it took awhile before they were killed or subdued.

Lefties accepting resonsibility? BWAAAAA ww

mantis,

A few corrections to your statements in post #11:

1) Well formed plans for reconstruction in place long before the war was over.
There were not. The Marshall Plan was not agreed upon until July 1947, did not become law until Truman signed it in 1948, and it only covered Western Europe. Japan was not considered important enough to warrant a recovery plan and got no economic help from the US. It is thought their eventual economic recovery (in the mid-1950s) was due in no small part to Japan's provision and staging of military supplies and troops there for the Korean War. Incidentally, when FDR died in April 1945, he had not bothered to bring Truman up to speed on any post-war plans he had been discussing with Churchill and Stalin. Truman had to figure out US diplomacy and strategy through his predecessor's advisors.

2) Tradition of democracy and civil society. Japan prior to WWII was not a true democracy--it had an emperor who was considered "divine" and whose word was law. The country did have experience with voting and elections, which started around the turn of the century. The Diet was the elected body that advised the Emperor, but the Emperor still had final say. From Wikipedia: "Overall, during the 1920s, Japan changed its direction toward a democratic system of government. However, parliamentary government was not rooted deeply enough to withstand the economic and political pressures of the 1930s, during which military leaders became increasingly influential. These shifts in power were made possible by the ambiguity and imprecision of the Meiji constitution, particularly as regarded the position of the Emperor in relation to the constitution." (emphasis mine) (link) Eventually, the military came to power and drove Japan to war--first with China, then the US. It required the Emperor to surrender and then step down from power as part of the unconditional surrender to the Allies.

3) Little to no armed resistance; No terrorism. The Werwolves (link) and the Edelweiss Piraten were an active resistance force in Germany for a short while following WWII. You can argue that these groups were incidental, but if you look at the measures the Allies took to rid the country of them (summary executions, taking hostages, forced labor, etc.) I'd venture to say that Iraq would also be a lot more compliant under those conditions, but our country and troops would be excoriated even more than they are currently, were that possible.

4) Attractiveness of cooperation with Allied occupation relative to Soviets in the east. There was a significant political movement in Germany to reunite the country as soon as possible, even under communist rule. The issue was not brought to rest until Konrad Adenauer, a former pastor, was elected as Chancellor in 1949. He was (and is) hailed as the person most responsible for orienting West Germany towards the west, both economically and politically, which eventually allowed his country to enter NATO. However, he is also vilified by those who believe that he turned his back on his fellow Germans, a situation that was not resolved until almost 50 years after WWII ended.

"Yes. At least in Germany, where armed resistance lasted several years past the formal surrender date."-oregonmuse

Bull hockey. Old fish story retold again.
All "werewolf" activity had ceased by the end of 1945. Too many old Social Democrats and Communists holding necktie parties for Nazis in Frankfurt, Berlin, and all states outside Bavaria. Add to that Adenaur's new job as national leader and founder of the CDU being put on the line by the US (the Brits didn't like him anyway, nor the Russians: 3 strikes would have been Out for Adenaur, who was VERY ambitious). So: no werewolves beyond 1945.

Why else? Because Hitler declared virtual war upon his own people in March, giving Home Guard units full powers to execute anyone who sneezed next to a roadblock. So: (except for Bavaria) Naziism was...unpopular.

Were did the die hard Nazis go? Sweden, Switzerland, America, the USSR security establishment in the Soviet zone of Germany, or to Indochina via the French Foreign Legion. In fact the large number of ex-Nazis in the pay of France was a scandal in the early 50s.

Werewolves past 1945? Nope. Unless in hibernation mode, under their beds or behind bank teller cages. No shooting.

Even though McCain has had nine trips to Iraq, most of them were spent in at the American mega, enduring/permanent bases. I still don`t understand how he expects Iraqis to countenance such a permanent occupation and unlike in Cold War Germany or in South Korea the US wants the spoils of war-oil plus a large say in the foreign/defence policy of Iraq as if it were a Third world colony.

Bush and company have completely understimated the Iraqis as formerly the US understimated the nationalist aspirations of the Vietnamese when they were buiding permanent bases in that era..It is curious McCain doesn`t cite Vietnam as a occupation success that was supposed to last forever too.

Listen to the podcast-interview of Tom Engelhardt describe how such an enormous expensive American occupation won`t make it any easier to withdraw, even as the war will cost us an estimated 3 trillion dollars so far...and all just to get one man Saddam Hussein, great.

Iraq shares more in common with Korea than Germany or Japan, in that it was a very successful initial military operation though strategically shortsighted. If MacArthur wasn't so arrogant and stupid, and had fortified Pyongyang instead of pushing north towards the numerically superior Chinese forces, the capital of the DPRK would be somewhere else today, and there would be several million fewer Koreans suffering under Kim Jong Il. Also, there would have been thousands fewer UN troops buried in Busan. The Korean War was a moral victory for the Communists, and you can't blame the hippies for that one--that's all on MacArthur. As for historical parallels, Rumsfeld and the PNAC posse were sorta like MacArthur, I guess, in that they failed to plan and a lot of people suffered for their arrogance.

The similarity is awfully tendentious, but it's the only one I can think of, whereas I can think of no similarities between Iraq, Japan, and Germany. After all, the U.S. beat the latter two and accepted their surrender. To whom has Moqtada Al Sadr surrendered? Even with Korea, though, Iraqis are to Koreans as architecture is to jazz music. The capitalists in the ROK have stronger ideological ties to their oppressed brethren in the DPRK than they do the United States or Japan. Their goals are nationalistic (capitalism as vehicle not for personal success, but national glory), as are the DPRK's (ostensibly, though obviously not in practice). In Iraq, the dominant Shi'ite ethnographic identifies more with Iran than with their countrymen and former oppressors, the Sunnis.

Glib, yes, but much less so than IRAQ WILL BE FINE BECUZ GERMANY AND JAPAN AND KOREA IS FINE OKAY?!!!!

Crickmore, your source's numbers, like you, are bullshit.

Others make good, relevant points. You? Never.

Steve, old chum, I'm going to take one of your big points and make you regret it. And I'm even going to enjoy it a little, and I feel bad about that.

Those "mega, enduring/permanent bases" in Iraq you're so keen to cite -- would you care to compare and contrast them with the "mega, enduring/permanent bases" we had in the Philippines? I have in mind Clark Field and Subic Bay.

And it also might prove enlightening for you to study the historical significances of those installations, and the circumstances that led to my emphasizing a certain verb tense in that last paragraph.

As far as imperialist powers go, the United States is either by far the most successful or by far the least successful in history... depending on how you define it.

Hmm.... I'm going to think about that one. I think I can wrangle a whole posting out of that thought...

Thanks, Steve!

J.

Lefties have no understanding of the advantage of geo-political strategies. To hard for them to understand. ww

Aww, Willie learned a new word! What is it about which geopolitical strategy that we fail to understand? I understand the aims of the PNAC, and find them naive, unachievable, and frankly undesirable.

As usual, you just leave a stupid comment about "the left" (by which I assume you mean those opposed to the mission in Iraq, which would be a decisive majority of the American public and everybody else on the planet). What is it that the 29 percenters get, that every other person fails to comprehend?

bryanD beclowns himself:

Werewolves past 1945? Nope.

From wikipedia:

In his Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946 (1998)[1], historian Alexander Perry Biddiscombe asserts that after retreating to the Black Forest and the Harz mountains, the Werwolf continued resisting the occupation until at least 1947, possibly to 1949-50.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good work, bryanD. Care to try again?

Hyperbolist, it may be a stupid comment to you, but to most people who actually follow not only politics, but events and how they effect other events, it is crucial that we control the dialogue in the middle east. If we lose that advantage, our country will shut down. All americans will be hurt, not just republicans. It was to our strategic advantage to base in Germany, Phillipines, Japan, Cuba, etc. There are reasons we are there that we will not know for decades to come. It is very easy to sit in a chair and micro manage world events on your computer via blogs, but there are actually flesh and blood people giving there all every day for the benefit of america. Yes, the left for the most part, is very short sighted and focus only in terms of what the republicans are doing instead of what our government as a whole is achieving or attempting to achieve. Yes, the left speaks mostly in "bumper sticker" sentences, while I believe the left doesn't have the patience to search the nuances of a subject. All I see on cable news is the left put down the GOP and Bush just for political advantage. So, my comment may seem stupid to you, but for the most part, the left is unreachable. BDS. ww

There are reasons we are there that we will not know for decades to come.

The left doesn't understand geopolitics because it's a secret!

Man, I was having such a shitty morning. I needed a chuckle.

Your right Hyper, I forgot, you are in the inner circle of discussions about world event in the chambers of Washington, D.C.. Are you naive or just unintelligient? ww

You shouldn't suggest that someone else is unintelligent if you can't spell the word. And I'm no more naive than you are: if your position has been reduced to "Let's trust shadowy figures in smoky rooms to act in our nation's best interests, with no accountability to the electorate, and assume that everything is going to turn out all ponies and rainbows," then maybe you should go live in Iran or North Korea.

OK! So....hussein has retarts on his side...so what?