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The Other Side Of The Coin

Well, it's been about a week since retired General0 Weasely Wesley Clark made his pronouncement that there is nothing about John McCain's military service that "qualifies" him to be president. I've been mulling that off and on, and I've come to the conclusion that Clark is absolutely right.

According to the Constitution, the qualifications for president are pretty simple, and military service is not part of them. Clark is absolutely right. One need not have served in the military to be president. Indeed, some of our finest presidents had little or no military experience -- Ronald Reagan, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson come to mind. On the other hand, some of our most disastrous presidents were men with distinguished military careers -- Ulysses Grant, Jimmy Carter, and (I'm ashamed to admit) New Hampshire's own Franklin Pierce all come to mind.

Indeed, the veteran status of our candidates has been of varying importance, often depending on how it favors the Democratic nominee: in 1992 and 1996, men who had been genuine war heroes were defeated by a man who actively avoided military service. The pendulum swung the other way in 2004 and 2008, when the Democratic nominees had the superior records. Now it seems it's back the other way, as a genuine, indisputable war hero is running against a man who never served (but, unlike Mr. Clinton, came of age after the draft was abolished and service was entirely voluntary).

So, it seems that Mr. McCain's military record really wouldn't be a good indicator of how well he would do as president. What, then, might it indicate about his character and judgment and personality?

Let me make one thing clear: I am not an enthusiastic McCain supporter. He wasn't my first choice for nominee. (That was Fred Thompson.) Nor was he my second or third choice. (Those were Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani.) At one point, I had them both at my third tier of preferences, under the "I think I can live with them as president" category.

Since then, as I've learned more about Obama, he's fallen quite a bit in my eyes. McCain has dropped a little, too, but the simple fact of the matter is that they are the two choices we have.

So, General Clark doesn't like what McCain's service record says about his qualifications to be president. He joins a long list of distinguished Democrats who have chimed in on McCain's service.

Senator Jay Rockefeller:

"McCain was a fighter pilot, who dropped laser-guided missiles from 35,000 feet. He was long gone when they hit. What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground? He doesn't know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues."

Senator Tom Harkin:

"I think he's trapped in that," Harkin said in a conference call with Iowa reporters. "Everything is looked at from his life experiences, from always having been in the military, and I think that can be pretty dangerous."

Harkin said that "it's one thing to have been drafted and served, but another thing when you come from generations of military people and that's just how you're steeped, how you've learned, how you've grown up."

(Harkin, it should be noted, was busted lying about and exaggerating his own military record during Viet Nam.)

Barack Obama backer and Democratic candidate for the U.S. House Bill Gillespie:

"Admirals' sons," Gillespie said, unopposed for the Democratic nomination in the 1st Congressional District held by Republican Rep. Jack Kingston, "were treated like royalty. They were privileged people. They were given a silver spoon. Their careers were prepared for them."

Gillespie, a former Army officer who served in Iraq, said McCain was the kind of admiral's son who became a "maverick."

McCain, Gillespie added, was "somebody who needed to stand out, someone that needed to draw attention to themselves and ... was usually out for themselves."

He said his "heart grieves" for McCain's suffering as a POW.

"After that," Gillespie said, "he was somewhat of a celebrity and it went to his head. ... I think he was a self-promoter for the last four years (in the Navy.)

OK, that's one way of looking at John McCain's service record. Just for fun, for balance, let's look at it another way, shall we?

John McCain was a Navy pilot who mastered one of the most challenging -- physically and psychologically -- tasks any pilot can do: landing a jet on an aircraft carrier. That particular feat has been described as a "controlled crash landing," on a moving target. As I understand it, you have to land an aircraft moving over 100 MPH on to a runway that's moving away from you at over 30 MPH. And you can't do it straight on, you have to do it at an angle -- the landing strip on a Forrestal-class carrier (where McCain served) is about 10 or so degrees off to the left. To do this requires incredible focus, concentration, spatial perception, hand-eye-coordination, courage, and an instinctive knowledge of physics. To do this, repeatedly, is almost superhuman.

Toss in such conditions as crappy weather and darkness, and it gets even more impressive.

John McCain served in the military during a time of war, and participated in that conflict. What lessons might he have taken away from that? Well, as someone who's seen war up close and personal, who lost friends in that war, he knows better than any other candidate (probably since Admiral James Stockdale or Senator Bob Dole) just how horrific war can be, and how it should always be the last resort of our nation -- but that there are worse things than waging war -- such as waging a war and not winning, or not waging a war today that will prevent an even more horrific war in the future.

John McCain was shot down and captured by the North Vietnamese, where he was tortured for literally years before being released. What might one take from that experience? Well, that America has enemies, and those enemies can really, really, really hate us and will hurt us at any opportunity. And that it has been a very, very long time since we faced a foe that actually respected the rules of war. (I'd say that the last one was Nazi Germany, and while they generally abided by the rules of war, they had plenty of other moral and ethical failings that should keep us from growing too nostalgic.)

While a prisoner, McCain was coerced signing a "confession" of war crimes for the North Vietnamese. He says -- and rightly so -- that the lesson he learned was that every man has a breaking point, and he found his. He also learned that, under torture, a person can be compelled to say or do anything -- but will still be able to repudiate it after the torture has ceased.

John McCain was offered early release, as he was the son of an admiral, and refused. What might that say? That he understood his duties and obligations under the military's code of conduct (and even more important, but unwritten, rules of honor) and obeyed them: he refused any preferential treatment, and insisted that the rules and regulations regarding US military personnel taken prisoner be followed.

John McCain was not only tortured while a prisoner of war, he was permanently crippled -- he can't raise his arms above his shoulders. He probably qualifies under the Americans with Disabilities Act. As such, he's not only likely to be sympathetic to those who labor under disadvantages and disabilities, he's also an example of how to adapt to and meet those challenges, and how to not let them prevent you from succeeding in life in spite of them.

John McCain commanded men in a Navy squadron, a training squadron based in Florida. During his command, he helped teach a lot of young men how to do the nigh-impossible (cited above) and during his tenure, turned it from a mediocre squadron to an award-winning one. This shows both leadership, and the ability to get things done.

John McCain spent 24 years on active duty in the United States Navy, retiring at the rank of Captain to run for Congress. One way of looking at this is that this is a man who has devoted his entire adult life to public service, to serving the nation in any way he can.

Now, do I believe all of what I just wrote? Hell, no. Some I think is true, some I think is flat-out spin, and most of it is some of both. But it's just as valid an interpretation of McCain's record as that being spun by Barack Obama's proxies -- if not more so.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Large parts of his military experiences would serve a President McCain well. Other parts would not. His utter lack of experience in the private sector, especially, would be a detriment. Fortunately for him -- but unfortunately for the rest of us -- his opponent has a similar utter lack of experience in "the real world."

Exploring the aspects of John McCain's service record, and how it would affect his possible presidency, is not only fair, but downright mandatory. But to denigrate that service, to slam what he did, is to spit in the faces of all of our veterans who did the very same things during their own careers.

Jay Rockefeller didn't insult John McCain. He insulted every bomber pilot who ever flew for our nation.

Tom Harkin didn't insult John McCain. He insulted every man and woman who chose to make a career out of the military.

In their haste to cut down McCain, they cut too wide a swath, and there was plenty of "collateral damage" among those we should most honor. That is disgusting and disgraceful, and that these two men are highly influential United States senators (and one of them the scion of one of the wealthiest and most powerful families the world has ever known).

But, in the end, if it means that a Democrat will win the presidency, that's all that matters, right?


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Comments (40)

C'mon Jay, you know militar... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

C'mon Jay, you know military service only matters when it is a dem running and showing off his uniform. Kerry, Carter, Kennedy... all very important warriors.
Bush 41, Bob Dole, McCain, they did nothing important or impressive while in uniform.
/wizblue

Granted, it may have something to do with who they ran against... a faux tank commander, a draft dodger and now a messianic socialist.

Jay, some people don't unde... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Jay, some people don't understand military ranks very well. I saw a commenter on another blog make the mistake of equating a Naval Captain with an Army Captain. He went on to comment how McCain must not be very competent to spend 24 years in the Navy and ONLY reach the rank of Captain.

So, one change I would suggest is to explain that a Naval Captain is equivalent to a full bird colonel in the other services and is just below the rank of Rear Admiral or Brigadier General.

Jay Rockefeller<block... (Below threshold)
stan25 Author Profile Page:

Jay Rockefeller

"McCain was a fighter pilot, who dropped laser-guided missiles from 35,000 feet. He was long gone when they hit. What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground? He doesn't know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues."

Again here is Democrat that does not know what the hell he is talking about. The United States Navy nor did the United States Air Force use laser guided ordnance during the Vietnam conflict.

During this time, laser guidance was still in the experimental stages and used in a very limited fashion. It was not until the mid-1980s that laser guided ordnance was widely used by both services. The real test of the laser guided ordnance was during the first gulf war, where the weapons were used almost exclusively.

While it is fact, that jets of that era could fly at 35,000 feet, they mostly carried the old fashion iron bombs. These were used primarily for close in fighter support for the ground forces. The missiles that they carried were for shooting down any migs that the pilot might encounter and in some cases used to wipe out the radar installations at the SAM sites.

The Gipper may have had mor... (Below threshold)
Mike:

The Gipper may have had more military service than you give him credit for. His eyesight kept him from serving overseas:

MILITARY SERVICE OF RONALD REAGAN
www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/military.html

"Ronald Wilson Reagan enrolled in a series of home-study Army Extension Courses on 18 March 1935. After completing 14 of the courses, he enlisted in the Army Enlisted Reserve on 29 April 1937, as a Private assigned to Troop B, 322nd Cavalry at Des Moines, Iowa. He was appointed Second Lieutenant in the Officers Reserve Corps of the Cavalry on 25 May 1937. On June 18 of that year Reagan, who had just moved to Los Angeles to begin his film career, accepted his Officer's Commission and was assigned to the 323rd Cavalry.

Lieutenant Reagan was ordered to active duty on 19 April 1942. Due to eyesight difficulties, he was classified for limited service only, which excluded him from serving overseas. His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation at Fort Mason, California, as liaison officer of the Port and Transportation Office. Upon the request of the Army Air Forces (AAF), he applied for a transfer from the Cavalry to the AAF on 15 May 1942; the transfer was approved on 9 June 1942. He was assigned to AAF Public Relations and subsequently to the 1st Motion Picture Unit in Culver City, California. Reagan was promoted to First Lieutenant on 14 January 1943 and was sent to the Provisional Task Force Show Unit of This Is The Army at Burbank, California. Following this duty, he returned to the 1st Motion Picture Unit, and on 22 July 1943 was promoted to Captain.

In January 1944, Captain Reagan was ordered to temporary duty in New York City to participate in the opening of the sixth War Loan Drive. He was assigned to the 18th AAF Base Unit, Culver City, California on 14 November 1944, where he remained until the end of the war. He was recommended for promotion to Major on 2 February 1945, but this recommendation was disapproved on July 17 of that year. On 8 September 1945, he was ordered to report to Fort MacArthur, California, where he was separated from active duty on 9 December 1945.

While on active duty with the 1st Motion Picture Unit and the 18th Army Air Forces Base Unit, Captain Reagan served as Personnel Officer, Post Adjutant, and Executive Officer. By the end of the war, his units had produced some 400 training films for the Army Air Forces.

Reagan's Reserve Commission automatically terminated on 1 April 1953. However, he became Commander-in-Chief of all U.S. Armed Forces when he became President on 20 January 1981."

Wish he was running for President this year!

I regret that my lack of... (Below threshold)
irongrampa:

I regret that my lack of adequate vocabulary prevents me from commenting on this matter in socially acceptable terms.

Makes me phsically ill to see the continual denigration of our military and the people who make it the finest in the world. I guess, in order to be a qualified candidate with military experience, you have to be on a par with that oozing pile of feces John Kerry.

This vote , for me, will be for an HONORABLE man,the antethesis of the Democratic candidate.

The leftists loath the mili... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The leftists loath the military and everything it stands for. Not democrats mind you, just leftists, which unfortunately have the steering power. So, a vote for Obama is a vote for four years of military diminishing. ww

I also suffer from electial... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I also suffer from electial dysfunction. Given the choices of the major parties, I'll have to go with McCain. Past performance is usually a pretty good indicator of future conduct. What has the Obamassiah accomplished in all his time in public service?

Excellent post Jay.<p... (Below threshold)

Excellent post Jay.

I am reminded of the post linked below, scroll down and read the section titled War of the Bumper Stickers.

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000136.html

John McCain violated the mi... (Below threshold)
Bones:

John McCain violated the military code of conduct volunteered vital intelligence information that resulted in an increase of US casualties, made 32 Anti American speeches denouncing his country, and has never lifted a finger to seek accountability for other POWs who were known to be alive and never repatriated. the reason he can't lift his arms is because the bonehead didn't eject himself properly when shot down even though he had crashed 4 jets prior. He now stands to make millions from his wife's beer distribution business since he was the driving the force to normalize relations with his enemy.The fact that the Vietcong dedicated a statue to him and that as an admiral's son he didn't receive a promotion while in captivity should tell you something about this enemy collaborator and American traitor. He when in a Captain, disgraced his family and came out a Captain

What does actually "qualify... (Below threshold)
groucho:

What does actually "qualify" someone to be president? Personally I'd rather have someone who understands the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims no matter what superhuman feats he was capable of 40 years ago. I want someone who understands the problems we face and is willing to try and solve them, not outsource them to the highest crony non-bidder. I don't care if he seems like a guy you'd like to sit down and have a few beers with; how many people who thought that was a positive in 2000 still think it now?

Gen. Clark made a simple observation, which, at face value is true. Leave it to the howling media dogs to twist and parse it into some king of hideous political smear. Where were all the staunch defenders of the sanctity of military service 4 years ago when Kerry was under attack by a well-funded rightwing hit job? It appears that one's military record needs to be viewed through the political prism of selective moral outrage.

"McCain was a fighter pilot... (Below threshold)
Corky Boyd:

"McCain was a fighter pilot, who dropped laser-guided missiles from 35,000 feet. He was long gone when they hit. What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground? He doesn't know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues." --Sen. Jay Rockefeller

Laser weapons weren't used in Vietnam until well after Sen. Mc Cain was shot down. Mc Cain used the Bullpup missile on some of his missions. The Bullpup was a rocket powered bomb that was controlled by the pilot of the attacking plane. It worked well in practice with accuracies of 5 to 10 feet.

But the problem in combat was you had to align the flare on the missile with the target and follow it in until missile impact, controlling your plane and the missile at the same time. It was a perfect setup for holstile AAA and SA-2 missiles. The pilot couldn't jink to spoil the enemy fire control computers' aim, wthout spoiling his own aim.

The other disadvantage was the pilot had to remain totally focused on his missile and target and couldn't keep and eye open for SA-2s. Wingman did that. There was a video posted about 2 years ago of McCain dodging a SA-2. Talk about hairy!

Sen Rockefeller is an idiot.

And right on cue, someon... (Below threshold)
irongrampa:

And right on cue, someone (#9) provides a stellar example of the left's loathing for our military. Kudos, asswipe--ya couldn't have done better.

An O-6 commanding a trainin... (Below threshold)
epador:

An O-6 commanding a training squadron had better be a people, financial, and strategic manager, and if the part about bringing a meager to award winning status is veritable, then that speaks very strongly of his managerial skills (certainly the XO and first shirt often end up doing the real work to manage the people to get such an award, but the boss has to manage them).

Initially trained in the A-1 (yes, he did damage a few aircraft) a propeller driven ground-attack aircraft, he transitioned to the A-4 jet. He was injured during the Forestall fire when a bomb exploded while he was trying to save another pilot. Here's a dedication and sense of duty demonstrated before POW status.

There's plenty of garbage-quality managers that have managed to pin on an eagle in the uniformed services, but there've been no qualified and verified complaints about his service that I've seen. Lots of left-pandering BS, but nothing substantial.

The John Glenn response to detractors of military service is about as eloquent and honest a response to this nonsense as any I've seen. Too bad we can't put him up against Weasley in a face to face contest. It would be to watch.


Look! There's a forest rig... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

Look! There's a forest right there in amongst the trees.

This discussion might be of interest if John McCain were even a viable candidate -- but he's not.

Uh, Mr. Tea, I need to corr... (Below threshold)
Herman:

Uh, Mr. Tea, I need to correct one of your errors. Jimmy Carter's presidency was definitely not "disastrous." Recall that he won the Nobel Peace Prize in part for his successful efforts to bring a lasting peace between Egypt and Israel. In addition, he successfully returned to Panama its canal, thereby ensuring that the Panamanians would be less angry with us. He got all the hostages taken by the Iranians out alive, and he set a fine example regarding conservation, wearing a sweater indoors and installing solar panels on the White House.

John McCain opposed the rec... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

John McCain opposed the recent GI Bill but didn't have the courage to vote against it.

He just didn't vote.

That's more "weasel" than "maverick."

#12I don't loathe ... (Below threshold)
Bones:

#12

I don't loathe the military at all. I wouldn't have a problem with McCain if he hadn't spent a career sealing his records forever.
Gen Clark is right, military service don't mean squat when electing a president. And if It did, I wouldn't elect a president who collaborated with the enemy to save his leg and receive preferential medical treatment that was not afforded to other POWs who weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Of the thousands of POWs that passed through the Hanoi Hilton, Mc Cain has managed to get maybe 6 to vouch for his alleged heroism. I ain't impressed. If he traded vital military information to save his leg, what else would he trade to save his butt as president?

Better military record won ... (Below threshold)
Mycroft:

Better military record won in 2004? What were you smoking?

George Bush was not a stellar officer. But John Kerry posted his fitness reports online on his website, without understanding how to read them. Guess what? For the era they were in, they showed a terrbile officer.

And the dates work out that John Kerry was given some sort of dishonorable discharge, as well as not retainingthe temporary rank he was given. Why a dishonorable discharge? 1. John Kerry came up for promotion to LT for the third time in 1975. Since he was NOT promoted, then the "up or out" rule applies. and he would have discharged. Since he won't show that discharge, it can't be good, and was sometime before that. He only shows the 1978 pardon - which is granted by the wrong agency to be anything but a pardon.

Thus, your premise that the officer with the better service record lost is WRONG.

Posts # 14 - 17Ma... (Below threshold)
JAP:

Posts # 14 - 17

Man You people are sick in the head.

He is not running on his mi... (Below threshold)
Largin Testin:

He is not running on his military record. It may be a strength but not his overriding qualification to be president. He also has 20 plus years in the Congress.....where he has been anything but a Kerry-like hanger-on. Right or wrong he has never been afraid to speak conviction. Unless situations change,( and not just personal ones), he is steadfast. -a leader. Let's all do ourselves a favor and TALK-UP this candidate rather than just wax incredulous at the nebulous "product" offered up in his stead by the socialists.

HermanIn ... (Below threshold)
stan25 Author Profile Page:

Herman

In addition, he successfully returned to Panama its canal, thereby ensuring that the Panamanians would be less angry with us.

Uh Herman, the Panama Canal was American territory since the canal was started in the early part of the last century. The United States Government made a deal--albeit a might shady, but we made the deal-- with the new nation of Panama to keep the canal and the surrounding area as United States territory. The only ones that were squawking about the United States owning the canal were the Euro-weenies, the Chinese and the leftists that infested and still infest this country. That is one of the main reasons that Carter did not get re-elected to a second term.

Now look at who has control of the Panama Canal. That is right, the Red Chinese and we all know that there is nothing that the Chinese would like to do is take over this country. That can blamed on the Carter administration too.

#9 He when in a... (Below threshold)
Eric:

#9

He when in a Captain, disgraced his family and came out a Captain

Thank you Bones for proving my earlier point that some people don't know what they are talking about when it comes to military ranks. McCain was a Lt. Commander when he was shot down in 1968. He was promoted to Commander in 1973, following his release as a POW. He was finally promoted to Captain in 1979, 11 years after he had been shot down.

McCain was such a disgrace to his family and the United States Navy that he received a paltry Silver Star, the Legion of Merit, three more instances of the Bronze Star, a second Navy Commendation Medal, and the Purple Heart just for his actions as a POW. What a loser.

Bones, if you can't get those simple facts right, how is anyone supposed to believe any of your other diatribe?

By the way here is the story of when McCain was shot down something in which you called him a bonehead:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi that had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids due to the possibility of collateral damage. As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk told him he was in danger from enemy fire. He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters) (he was later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day). As he started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile fired by the North Vietnamese Air Defense Command's 61st Battalion. McCain's plane went into a vertical inverted spin. Bailing out upside down at high speed, the force of the ejection fractured McCain's right arm in three places, his left arm, and his right leg, and knocked him unconscious. McCain nearly drowned after his parachute dropped him into Trúc Bạch Lake in Hanoi; the weight of his equipment was pulling him down, and as he regained consciousness, he could not use his arms. Eventually, he was able to inflate his life vest using his teeth. Some Vietnamese, possibly led by Department of Industry clerk Mai Van On, pulled him ashore. A mob gathered around, spat on him, kicked him, and stripped him of his clothes; others crushed his left shoulder with the butt of a rifle and bayoneted him in his left foot and abdominal area. He was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton" by American POWs.

I think Bonehead better describes someone who calls himself, well Bones.

McCain's service is indicat... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

McCain's service is indicative of one trait I do admire--a willingness to try and do good for the whole rather than just the individual. I disagree with a lot of McCain's decisions and choices, but I don't think they are out of malice.

Obama strikes me as the sort of person who would sell out his friends in a heartbeat if it appeared he might personally be affected by it. He's done nothing to show me otherwise as one after another of his "close, personal friends" are disavowed. He's convinced me he'd pitch the country out just like his friends if it benefited him.

bonesAnother troll... (Below threshold)

bones

Another troll has been spreading the same garbage about McCain. I'm more inclined to believe what Bud Day and James Stockdale have to say about him.

And this turns out to be an old story:


http://www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm

http://www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm


Apologies for the time l... (Below threshold)
irongrampa:

Apologies for the time lapse in my reply to#17.


BULLSHIT.

Its a good thing that John ... (Below threshold)
ptg:

Its a good thing that John Kerry's military service didn't go to his head, no?

When the real nut jobs are ... (Below threshold)

When the real nut jobs are allowed to bloviate endlessly they ultimately torpedo their own positions with unnecessary lies, as do pathological liars and their enablers that can't help themselves.

Exhibit A:

He now stands to make millions from his wife's beer distribution business since he was the driving the force to normalize relations with his enemy.

Cause and effect, Bones? McCain is making millions because he was the driving the force to normalize relations with his enemy? Beer distributors everywhere are waiting for your explanation as to how this get rich formula works.

"While a prisoner, McCain w... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"While a prisoner, McCain was coerced signing a "confession"...but will still be able to repudiate it after the torture has ceased."-jt

McCain "confessed" in writing 32 times, some of which were read over news band (aimed at US and VN troops). I believe the number of broadcasts was 19. Also participated in interviews published in Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Spain, etc. conducted by various "neutrals" (communist apparatchiks from neutral nations)- which the DVN supervised, of course- and in which he blabbed about his ship, his service, his dad, San Diego, etc, etc, etc. You can find at least one example online. It reads like a trip down McCain's Memory Lane. Or the back pages of his brain. I think he even talks about his car back home. (AWWW!)

Anyway, I insist everyone who visits my compound (young and old, hale or infirm, doctors' note or no) view the following video clip, which I find is the most efficient and efficacious way of helping fellow Republicans stay unstuck from such a Closet Case and Blackmail Candidate as Juan McCain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g&feature=related

Bonus:
"What, then, might it indicate about his character...?"-jt

Not a tack I take, but the loyal yet suddenly crippled 1st wife's abrupt dispensability by McCain in favor of the rich chick, when occasionally brought up for questioning by the Great Unwashed of Planet Earth, leaves McCain media apologists completely dumbfounded.

They need to work on that.

Not to mention Cindy's embezzling drugs while signing them out under her employees' names then sticking them in an orifice and passing out in her boudoir upstairs like a bimbo.

3 Stikes against coconut head. Not counting Shamnesty or McCain-Feingold. Have an Alka-Seltzer!


Damn, those progressives ar... (Below threshold)

Damn, those progressives are classy folk. I can't understand why they don't get more support.

bryanDMcCain was <... (Below threshold)

bryanD

McCain was mean and rude? Horrors! He had a witness in tears? Oh, the shame! And your clip has what to offer? Guys speculating on what McCain might or might not know? That's thin stuff, Bryan. Except for the really juicy hearsay, which, again, has no substance.

And there's your gem here:

McCain "confessed" in writing 32 times, some of which were read over news band (aimed at US and VN troops). I believe the number of broadcasts was 19. Also participated in interviews published in Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Spain, etc. conducted by various "neutrals" (communist apparatchiks from neutral nations)- which the DVN supervised, of course- and in which he blabbed about his ship, his service, his dad, San Diego, etc, etc, etc. You can find at least one example online. It reads like a trip down McCain's Memory Lane. Or the back pages of his brain. I think he even talks about his car back home.

Hey bryan, given the torture he endured, the pain and agony inflicted on him, the life threatening injuries and squalid conditions he endured, you're now serving up that diatribe to establish what? That he's weak?

bryanD, you are an incredibly shallow and weak person to anonymously post this excrement about an American hero who endured a Hell you will never experience so that you had the right (as an anonymous coward) to spread lies about him.

And again, you offer nothing to prove your claims here that he received preferential treatment, was treated favorably by the animals who held him captive, ratted out his mates ad infinitum ad nauseum. You offer no proof whatsoever other than secondhand gossip that would not rise above the level of hearsay in a court of law.

You fail to support your outrageous accusations with any proof (because you have none) and must resort to attacking his "rich chick" wife, whose drug problems are as well documented as those of Kitty Dukakis and Joan Kennedy (of whom a rare few gave a second thought during elections).

I'll repeat, in the matter of John McCain's loyalty and courage (he was my fourth pick in the primary) I'll accept the first hand account of two Medal of Honor winners who served in the same hell hole prison with him rather than the lies and rumors pushed by your crowd.

McCain ha ha ..who in their... (Below threshold)
VanMan:

McCain ha ha ..who in their right mind could take him seriously.. the republicans really backed the wrong horse this time..
#22 how come you left out the part where he admitted giving vital military information to the enemy because he was afraid he was going to lose his leg ??... that was in the same Newsweek article.
He looks like a cross breed between Alvin the Chipmunk and Grandpa Munster

<a href="http://www.youtube... (Below threshold)
AB:
#24Joe Schlatter???<... (Below threshold)
Cubicle:

#24
Joe Schlatter???
The government cover-up lap dog???
That's all you got?
Go talk to Bill Bell, Chip Beck, Bill Hendon

Joe Schlatter? get real...he ain't no more credible than any other whacko...

Hugh S,McCain's in... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Hugh S,

McCain's injuries are the result of ejection and subsequent abuse by villagers and militia on Day 1.

During processing into the prison system McCain rightfully evaded interrogation so the guards threw him in with 2 or 3 fellow POWs and said, "here are your nurses. Unfortunately, they're amateurs. Uncle Ho doesn't give succor to unrepentant terrorists. So good luck. And don't call us. Unless you wish to Atone for your crimes."

Within days McCain called for the "manager". And Voila! He is suddenly being given precious medical attention. (We all know the DVN gave NOTHING medically to regular POWs.)

Afterward he disappears. Except for that pesky paper trail. His only roomates from then on seem to have been defectors and deserters (WHEN he is accounted for at all). (You may also recall certain utterances made by McCain against certain "roomates" of his. And since prisoners were segregated by status (service, rating, defectors-deserters as opposed to "criminals") the question must be raised: "Why was McCain rooming with a bunch of defectors and deserters? See 60 Minutes from several years ago for this example of McCain inadvertantly telling on himself).

Fast forward to 1992. McCain casts the only vote which by Senate rules keeps all POW and MIA files Classified, even though the purpose of the hearings was to cast "sunshine" upon the dark questions regarding the harried Nixon administration leaving Americans behind after the Vietnam pullout.

Quid pro quo?

Cherry On Top: in the wake of those 1992-1993 hearings McCain attempted to have members of the POW/MIA Families organization charged with FRAUD. True story. *cue Twilight Zone theme*

Regarding the CindyPillTale: McCain attempted to legally bushwack the source of the story by basically accusing that source of what Cindy actually did, sans pills (i.e. fraud, embezzlement).

P.S. And HughS, the world doesn't care if McCain was your 4th choice. Go outside and play.

Bones and bryanD are exampl... (Below threshold)
Bird:

Bones and bryanD are examples of the kind of shit Obama raises to the surface with his candidacy.

All hearsay and rumor, brya... (Below threshold)

All hearsay and rumor, bryan. You still haven't provided anything that remotely approaches circumstantial. I'll rely on first hand statements from actual war heroes who were there with McCain.

And this:

in the wake of those 1992-1993 hearings McCain attempted to have members of the POW/MIA Families organization charged with FRAUD.

Read my link.

Bird, when dealing with an ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Bird, when dealing with an anti-semite with delusions and admitted pedophillic tendencies, it's best to just move on rather than engage.

Here's on old CBS feature i... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

Here's on old CBS feature in which McCain curses POWs who did what McCain admits he did himself(!)- in the same story(!)- , ie. yapping for the enemy.

Please note also that McCain admits here that his injuries to leg and both arms occurring during ejection and landing hard. The arm injuries BTW due to his failure to tuck in his arms clear the cockpit hatch.

Also note that his "friend" and witness to his time spent in solitary is conveniently dead. Note his ad libbing and hedging about details of communication.

Finally note the cigarette scene in THE HOSPITAL compared to shots of other Hanoi Hilton POWs shown having a really really bad day going cold turkey. And remember again that McCain is throwing stones at certain other POWs during this supposed puff piece. *reprise Twilight Zone theme*

Note: contrary to the story shown, the North Vietnamese didn't just "discover" (by osmosis?) that McCain was a "Crown Prince". It was McCain who TOLD them so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFbfAqJ4hRM&feature=related

"Read my link."

I didn't see anything disputing McCains fraud gambit against the POW-MIA Families. Paste it if I missed it.

"Bird, when dealing with an anti-semite with delusions and admitted pedophillic tendencies, it's best to just move on rather than engage.
Posted by SCSIwuzzy"

Yeah. Seeing The Cowsills on Playboy After Dark warped me. Talk about inappropriate!

(Mother Cowsill shortly afterward checked herself into a sanitarium to die. True Story.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaAUY4SDRHE

That (38) answers which of ... (Below threshold)
MonkeyB:

That (38) answers which of them is the pedo
Does this choad hate all republican, all POWS or just McCain?

I didn't see anything... (Below threshold)

I didn't see anything disputing McCains fraud gambit against the POW-MIA Families. Paste it if I missed it.

Read the link:


http://www.miafacts.org/prankster.htm




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