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The Real Question After Saddleback

Well, the current spin after the joint interviews of both candidates at the Saddleback Church is that John McCain might very well have cheated and heard some of the questions asked of Barack Obama.

It's understandable. After all, in 2004 John Kerry was caught cheating at one debate, and nothing ever came of that.

But that's not the real question here. The question should not be "why did John McCain do so well?" After all, McCain has shown, time and again, that he's very, very good in this kind of format.

No, the real question is "why did Barack Obama do so badly?"

Everyone has been talking about how Obama bobbled badly over the abortion question. He had an opportunity to make a principled stand for his position, to present his arguments in a forum where, let's be honest, it would not be welcomed, but would be tolerated politely. Pastor Warren was not going to engage in a debate on the matter, and the audience was not about to turn into a lynch mob. Instead, he flailed and hemmed and hawed and evaded.

That wasn't the only one, but it was the msot glaring.

Let's assume that McCain did, indeed, hear the questions as they were asked of Obama. Every single one. What good would it have done him?

Damned little, I think. He went onstage as soon as Obama finished. He (with staff help, I presume) would have had to simultaneously formulate responses for the earlier questions and commit them to memory while listening to the latter ones. For McCain to pull that kind of stunt off would be, if nothing else, a testament to a phenomenally sharp and agile mind, a near-photographic memory, and a lightning-quick wit -- all of which is in stark contrast to the "doddering, dotty old man" stereotype being pushed against him.

No, that doesn't pass Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is that the format at the Church is one that McCain is far more comfortable with and competent at handling. Obama has shown, on numerous occasions, that he gets stumble-mouthed when speaking off the cuff, often saying what he thinks the audience wants to hear rather than sticking with the simple facts.

I'd even go so far to speculate that part of the reason that Obama has so much trouble just letting go and speaking from his heart is because, at his heart, he has no core convictions to guide him. He has no experience in taking a stand on principle, on stating his rock-solid principles and sticking to them. In an environment like he faced at Saddleback, with an interviewer as skillful and insightful as Pastor Warren, he had no ready way to stick to the prepared remarks and instead had to rely on his own wits -- and they failed him.

So, did McCain "cheat" at Saddleback? Possibly. It was phenomenally stupid and inept of him to be late to the "cone of silence" room, leaving open this speculation. But it just doesn't pass the common-sense test. Cheating in the way described offered McCain very little gain (as I noted above, he's very good at this format, and Obama isn't) at great risk -- breaking his word to someone of Pastor Warren's standing and reputation would be a major blow to McCain's standing with the religious base of the Republican party. More than anything else, it would be stupid.

But it does give the Obama apologists something to talk about besides how their guy did so badly on Saturday night.


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Comments (62)

As it's been pointed out, O... (Below threshold)

As it's been pointed out, Obama got one question in advance which McCain didn't know about.

"He has no experience in... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"He has no experience in taking a stand on principle, on stating his rock-solid principles and sticking to them."

It's easy to cast a vote. Or to just vote present when you've had time to consider the ramifications of creating a history. He has no, or very little, experience in being in an even remotely hostile environment. You have to remember, he's been in Chicago. He's been in like-minded company. He's been surrounded by sympathetic voices. Now he's got TV personalities and print media covering for his every gaffe, adoring fans in Germany (which the media covered breathlessly) and has his handlers carefully choreographing his public appearances right down to every minor detail.

He's been in a bubble.

But put him in a spontaneous environment where he has to answer off-the-cuff or be around those who may disagree with him and he flubs it.

It's one thing to press a button, yeah, nay or "present". It's another to explain that vote succinctly. And Obama can't do that without someone telling him what to say.

Jay,WELL SAID! ... (Below threshold)
Candy:

Jay,
WELL SAID!

This is a comment posted at... (Below threshold)
goddessoftheclassroom:

This is a comment posted at LGF. I know the poster wants this message shared:
......

My son Todd, who is on the Staff at Saddleback church, sent me
a letter from Dr. Rick Warren to all his staff to set some rumors and out-right lies to rest. I send it to you verbatim.

It is my intention to post this letter to other threads tomorrow as well.

To: Everyone - SVCC
Subject: Stupid Rumor/ and other thoughts

Dear Saddleback Staff,

We're being swamped with positive comments about the format of the forum, about both candidates, and about how people learned more about each of them than they knew before and actually seemed to appreciate both men more than before. If we can increase the level of civility and lower the level of "gotcha" partisanship in this election cycle, that will be a great thing. I was personally pleased with the way both men's personalities shown out and I wrote a personal congratulations to both men on the fine jobs they did. I was proud of both of them

However, it seems that somebody who didn't like the Forum is systematically calling media to raise questions about McCain possibly hearing part of the Forum. Of course McCain didn't hear anything. Both men agreed to the terms of the Forum and I trust both of them. They are questioning the integrity of McCain, the Secret Service, and our own security.

Actually, I'm afraid this rumor will hurt the Obama campaign, because if someone asks me, I'll have to say that I told Barack in advance about one of the questions, that I never got a chance to tell John McCain about because he wasn't on campus yet.

I did an interview with Dan from Beliefnet which felt pretty antagonistic. He charged "An anonymous source told me that John McCain was watching a monitor in his green room." Flat out Impossible! But Dan had called Tim Farley at XM radio and talked to Tim about this. Other media had been called too. Whoever is spreading this, is going to look like a fool when the truth gets out, and it may have repercussions. Of course, everyone is trying to force me to take sides, which I steadfastly refuse to do. But pray for me because this dishonest rumor angers me.

Here are some facts

1. There were Secret service staff and Saddleback staff with McCain with him thee, and there was no way McCain could have listened to anything without being seen. There were cameras on him when he arrived.

2. "When I said 'cone of silence' I was obviously being silly-the crowd laughed at the obvious metaphor reference to Get Smart. But Senator McCain was put in a green room in a DIFFERENT BUILDING without any contact.

3 Chuck Taylor, Saddleback staff member DISCONNECTED the TV from the source as part of creating a silent green room. If anyone had even tried to turn the TV in that room all they would have got was static!

The truth is , both candidates did an OUTSTANDING JOB at the Forum. They were both articulate, and not only did America get to hear their different views for America's future, but we got to see their God-given personalities (their SHAPE) in action.

I am overwhelmed by the incredible work of our staff team, the leadership of Erik, David, and so many others of you who played a vital role in pulling off the weekend. WOW! I thank God for you, for your service, for your talent, and for the great testimony it was to the world.

Today, I received word from the President of the nation of Georgia (which has been under attack by Russia). In near tears, he thanked Saddleback Church for mentioning his country under attack during the forum for the whole world to hear.

He had watched the Saddleback Civil Forum in his nation, and was so moved that their situation was mentioned, and he asked me to personally ask our church and our network of churches to pray for Georgia in this crisis.

Rick

McCain cheated by having pr... (Below threshold)
Bob:

McCain cheated by having prepared to be President for the last 35 years, in contrast to Sen. BHO, who has no experience beyond being a community organizer and Chicago politician, and being in the Senate for less than 2 years.

I'm back - just really impr... (Below threshold)
Candy:

I'm back - just really impressed with the points made in this post. The doddering old fool turned sly fox idea is hysterical. Obama is in way over his head, and I truly pity him - he reminds me of the kid in high school who tries to b.s. his way thru an oral report, when clearly, the book hasn't been read - in fact, there was a "Leave it to Beaver" episode once where The Beave watched "The Three Muskateers" on tv instead of reading the book, and made a fool of himself on his book report. Somebody please give Obama the Cliffnotes...

"The doddering old fool tur... (Below threshold)
retired military:

"The doddering old fool turned sly fox idea is hysterical."

Brought to you by the same folks who believe that Bush is a drooling idito but at the same time an evil mastermind which keeps pulling the wool over their eyes.

They always want their cake and eat it too. If they dont win it is because the other side cheated. It's the liberal way.

I think we should just call... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

I think we should just call him "Uhhbama". Without a teleprompter telling him what to think it's the only word he seems to know.

Well said.The 'con... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Well said.

The 'cone of silence' meme is being pushed to draw attention away for Obama's poor performance. Whether the issue raised is true or not (I don't know), it had ZERO impact on Obama's inept answers... which is the real story from this event.

It's almost football season... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

It's almost football season!

Sat night, the much hyped Team O had dozens of turn overs resulting in numerous scores for Team M. Team O, who was expected to route Team M, failed to score at all.

However, there is a question of whether Team M was offsides on a play.

The validity or invalidity of the claim, however, would have no affect on the astonishingly disappointing showing from pre-season darling Team O.

While I otherwise agree wit... (Below threshold)
Jody:

While I otherwise agree with your post, you should go back and reread your Kerry cheating link. Turns out it was just a pen.

Jody:1) By the deb... (Below threshold)

Jody:

1) By the debate rules, the candidates were to bring NOTHING to the podiums. Pens and blank paper would be placed by debate officials ahead of time. Even a pen would be considered cheating.

2) If you review the video of the incident, which I did numerous times back in 2004, Kerry unfolds, lays flat, and smooths out his "pen."

As much as I respect Bill, I disagree with his conclusion.

J.

Funny, it's not as if conse... (Below threshold)
Mike:

Funny, it's not as if conservative critics haven't been pointing out FOR MONTHS NOW that Obama verbally stumbles and fumbles when he is not making a prepared speech.

Perhaps liberals should actually listen to constructive criticism of their candidates rather than just engaging in knee-jerk smears of those critics.

The Obamessiah indeed has "... (Below threshold)
OLDPUPPYMAX:

The Obamessiah indeed has "core principles." His dilemma is not being able to reveal them if he hopes to be elected. Even with the unconditional assistance of the MSM, it is difficult to misrepresent, dissemble and distort every time a question is put to you. Thus the "hems", "haws" and "ums" whenever he opens his mouth. And this is what accounts for his inability to "close the deal", as his media cheerleaders and protectors have pointed out with such obvious concern.

The one thing I've only see... (Below threshold)
eirik:

The one thing I've only seen pointed out a couple times about this is, even if McCain was cheating and listening to things in the car, he would only have heard about 1/3 to 1/2 of Obama's presentation. That includes the first two questions that both men got in advance.

I haven't had a chance to listen to it, but to those that have, did McCain suddenly start to fumble at the end? Or was he consistent? How does the idea that McCain may have heard the question change the fact that Obama fumbled so bad on the question about advisors, which both men got in advance?

The other thing that comes to mind, how was this broadcast in the area? I know it was on cable news, but was it carried on AM/FM radio local to the church? Sat radio? Did the car (presumably a Secret Service SUV) have Sat radio?

I disagree that Obama did b... (Below threshold)

I disagree that Obama did badly with Rick Warren's Saddleback Forum. Obama could never satisfy many single issue voters in the evangelical community on some issues like abortion, however all he really needed to do was to give thoughtful enough of answers to pull a higher percentage of evangelical votes than John Kerry did in 2004. If Obama can pull 28% or more of these voters, then that's a victory.

Weren't the questions fairl... (Below threshold)
Brahma:

Weren't the questions fairly obvious? Shouldn't any staff weenie worth having been able to anticipate them and draft flexible answers?

Paul - Obama came off as a ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Paul - Obama came off as a likeable guy ready to be your friend. McCain came off as the man more than ready to lead.

Obama came off a either philosophical about many things, which isn't bad, but also unclear and ducking about many other things, which IS bad. In other words, he came off as a man not comfortable with his answers and unsure of his worldview and one with few deep-rooted convictions.

McCain came of as a man with answers, based on deep-rooted convictions.

That's why Obama did badly and McCain far outshown all expectations.

BHO lives in fear of saying... (Below threshold)

BHO lives in fear of saying the wrong thing. He wants it so bad that he can't speak from the heart. "Above my pay grade" was a complete cop-out!

Paul, the fact that the Oba... (Below threshold)

Paul, the fact that the Obama camp floated the "McCain cheated" accusation to their allies in the mainstream media indicate that, in contrast to your glowing review, they felt he had really gotten his clock cleaned by McCain.

And there's no way Obama is going to get 28% of the evangelical vote. Not even close.

Obama knew that he was goin... (Below threshold)
hermie:

Obama knew that he was going to be in front of a group of evangelical Christians (and some supporters).

Obama, supposedly being a genius and all-knowing Messiah, should have had a conception of what kinds of questions he would be asked.

Obama had discussed with warren some things in advance, so this wasn't an 'ambush interview'.

Obama fumbled and bumbled all by himself, and he did so because he has no core beliefs which he can justify his ever-shifting positions.

Maybe McCain did listen in.... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Maybe McCain did listen in. His knowledge of BHO's totally inane and inept answers could be the reason he was so relaxed during his half of the program.

Obama, supposedly being ... (Below threshold)
Parthenon:

Obama, supposedly being a genius and all-knowing Messiah, should have had a conception of what kinds of questions he would be asked.

Only his opponents call him either of these things.

The "empty suit" label is s... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The "empty suit" label is starting to prove itself. You cannot just go on and on speaking platitudes. It is good in the short term, but in the long term, BHO looks unintelligient. ww

Only his opponents... (Below threshold)
Only his opponents call him either of these things.

True. But the point is, Obama should have been better prepped. He could have been better prepped. It didn't take rocket science to make some intelligent guesses as to what kind of questions he would likely be asked in that venue.

The fact of the matter is, candidate Obama and his staff screwed up royally. They came off as, first, ill-prepared, and second, whiny and petulant.

And only time will tell if they've learned from this mistake.

Oregonmuse, the forum wasn'... (Below threshold)

Oregonmuse, the forum wasn't a debate with winners, but merely two interviews with two candidates at a church where most voters are social conservatives and have fixed and set views on many subjects such as abortion, Gay marriage or stem cell research.

If McCain was allowed to hear the questions ahead of time, then he had more time for himself or his handlers to prepare applause-line answers that the socially conservative audience wanted to hear.

If anything the format and conservative church setting was intended to enhance McCain's standing among evangelical voters, but since Obama was also invited, this church sponsored event got more press than it really deserved. But it certainly was no debate.

Hooson, this thing didn't h... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

Hooson, this thing didn't happen in a vacuum. In politics, EVERYTHING has winners and losers. And the fact that you have to come out with typical liberal verbal gymnastics means at some level you get that.

paul, whenever you have 2 c... (Below threshold)
ke_future:

paul, whenever you have 2 competing candidates speaking at the same event, there will be a winner and a loser. that's the way it works.

so, you're saying that socially conservative voters don't matter because they lean republican anyways? so we should pay attention when both candidates are given the opportunity to answer the same questions? wow.

The fact was that Obama was... (Below threshold)
hermie:

The fact was that Obama was not capable of addressing a question which would've endangered his standing with his left-wing base. He was trying to have it both ways..and he failed miserably because he would not answer the questions without hemming and hawing.

I see thoughtfulness and an... (Below threshold)
Parthenon:

I see thoughtfulness and an expression of humility before a complex issue are unpopular qualities with this crowd. Seeing shades of grey where you folks see black and white makes a guy a cowardly slickster, unwilling to talk down to his core supporters, I guess.

I don't see much evidence for that theory. He's got his core supporters; they're not going anywhere. He's criticised them before - have we forgotten so soon the father's day speech?

Ke and Brainy, I actually f... (Below threshold)

Ke and Brainy, I actually feel that Pastor Rick warren did a very good job hosting the event, however there is great competition in the evangelical religious community for top preacher status, so Pastor Warren did have a strong personal agenda to draw as big of an audience as possible as preachers compete with one another for top status. Watch for Robert Schuller or others to show up at the political conventions as well.

Interestingly, this evangelical community seems heavily involved in competition building the biggest churches, having the largest televangelist TV audiences, selling the most books and making the most money.

Many of these churches, which are mainly White, spend a great deal of time preaching more about politics, psychology or how to make money than about Jesus, compared to most African American churches which are far more inspired by the Holy Spirit than by the spirit of capitalism.

Some people who attend church are interested in following God Almighty. Others are more interested in following the almighty dollar. I don't know what a political event at a church has to do with God myself, except to promote the career of the pastor I suppose.

Who won the Saddleback Church Forum? Why Pastor Risk Warren for certain.

I see thoughtfulne... (Below threshold)
I see thoughtfulness and an expression of humility before a complex issue are unpopular qualities with this crowd.

When Obama hems and haws and submerges clarity in an ocean of words, we don't see "thoughtfulness" or "humility before a complex issue." What we see is fear. Fear of speaking plainly about he really believes, because if he did, he'd probably piss off a lot of voters, and not a few of them in his own party. Also, by keeping his utterances murky, he can easily go back at a later date and "clarify" what he meant, and depending on the circumstances, he could "clarify" it in any direction he wanted.

#23No, the call him ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

#23
No, the call him "The One"

I linked to your post from ... (Below threshold)

I linked to your post from SaddleBack Church Forum - McCain vs Obama

With ... But that's not the real question here. The question should not be "why did John McCain do so well?" After all, McCain has shown, time and again, that he's very, very good in this kind of format.

No, the real question is ... ...

The post contains the audio from the saddleback forum and will be a location to reference from other posts on their statements.

Mr.Hoosan, your quot... (Below threshold)
maggie:


Mr.Hoosan, your quote at #31 is racist, and it is bigoted.
Where are your sources backing up your accusations about what white churches are, and black churches are more spiritual.
There are some mighty big black churches down here in my neck of the woods by the way.
Does big equate dollar bills if the church is big and black?
What about the churches in the middle that attract both blacks
and whites, such as Joel Osteens church. considered one of the biggest churches in the United States.
You should consider either apologizing for your bigoted racist
remark, retract it, or make accessible the sources you used
for your post.

"I see thoughtfulness an... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"I see thoughtfulness and an expression of humility..."

Frankly, neither candidate possesses an overabundance of humility. There are a couple of fairly sizable egos here, which frankly, is always the case with anyone who has the cojones to run for President. If you're implying that Obama's "higher pay grade" comment was an expression of humility, I think that's way off the mark. It was a way of dodging the question or trying (as Obama is wont to do) to re-frame the question as part of his answer and not really answering the question at all.

As for your stating that these qualities - thoughtfulness and humility - are unpopular with this crowd, well then, show us when these qualities are genuine rather than feigned or used as a tactic. It may be what you saw, but I didn't.

this is another example of ... (Below threshold)
jmc:

this is another example of why mccain is not trustworthy. he is a cheater. He cheated on his wife, he cheated on his debate and he has flipfloped on so much of what he believes in. John Mccain cheats.

"Some people who attend chu... (Below threshold)
Sue:

"Some people who attend church are interested in following God Almighty. Others are more interested in following the almighty dollar. I don't know what a political event at a church has to do with God myself, except to promote the career of the pastor I suppose."

You have no knowledge of whether any of those Pastors are simply "interested in the almighty dollar", simply interested in promoting the career of the Pastor, or sincere, devout Christians being obedient and living for thier Lord and Savior.

That is what you want to believe. You cannot see into their heart or into their motivations. Nor do you have any idea of what ministeries the church is involved in that are not publicized. Nor any ministeries that the Pastor in privately involved in.

Nor do I know any of those, but at least I admit that and don't judge those Pastors and churches.

One who loves God and has faith does not bash other Christians. Your post says more about you than any Christian Pastor or Church.

maggie, don't get your hope... (Below threshold)

maggie, don't get your hopes up. Asking Mr. Hooson to cite sources for his claims was my big mistake a couple of weeks ago. Brace yourself for an endless deluge of insufferable arrogance and utterly irrelevant twaddle and long lectures on why he doesn't need to abide by the customs and rules that other, lesser people obey. There may also be allusions to high-powered lawyers on call to protect him, as well as repeated declarations of his wealth and success.

But citing sources for his allegations? Forget it. Not gonna happen.

J.

Jay, thanks for the tip abo... (Below threshold)
maggie:

Jay, thanks for the tip about Hoosans' twaddle.
If he avoids honesty, it leaves only one thing
to call him in his avoidance.

A while back I heard the de... (Below threshold)
Roy Lofquist Author Profile Page:

A while back I heard the devil himself, Karl Rove, say this on TV:

(paraphrase)

You cannot remake the image of your opponent. He will, in the end, shine through. What you can do is observe his weaknesses and point them out.

It appears that McCain is a better listener than Obama.

Hey, Jay. Very good post a... (Below threshold)
-S- Author Profile Page:

Hey, Jay. Very good post and also most of the comments -- mirror my estimations of the Saddleback event, also.

What's all this talk about ... (Below threshold)
candy:

What's all this talk about Hoosan's Twaddle? It sounds very dirty!

Wow, Hooson, points for dif... (Below threshold)
brainy435:

Wow, Hooson, points for difficulty. Not only did you try for a clumsy change of topic, but after you muffed that you tried to change the changed topic.

Wait, after the twaddle comments should I have use "muffed?" I never know...

"There may also be allusion... (Below threshold)
Michael:

"There may also be allusions to high-powered lawyers on call to protect him, as well as repeated declarations of his wealth and success."

My God what a moron Hoosen is. Just more proof that liberalism is a disease.

And this is what a week in ... (Below threshold)

And this is what a week in Hawaii will get you.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10

Or is it the result of a mediafest week overseas, a vacuous speech in Berlin and then some wave surfing before combat duty in a mega church?

I suspect tire inflation. And Putin. And abortion. And the usual suspects.

It's hilarious that all we have heard from the legacy media since Sunday is cheater, cheater pumpkin eater.

As Jay noted, Obama's problem is a lack of core convictions in his heart. I'm reminded of Hillary's interview on Fox with O'Reilly....a place where Obama never ventured to go. I don't want this comment to turn on opinions of O'Reilly, but rather to remind the libs that Hillary actually articulated and stood up for her positions and didn't rely on idiomatic phrases about pay grades.


Obama's problem is... (Below threshold)
Obama's problem is a lack of core convictions in his heart.

Oh, I disagree. I think Obama's got all kinds of core convictions in his heart. He's just afraid of people finding out what they actually are.

Um, last I checked, Hawaii ... (Below threshold)
ExSubNuke:

Um, last I checked, Hawaii has been just about the bluest state around (not counting MA, of course).

ExSubNuke<i... (Below threshold)

ExSubNuke


Um, last I checked, Hawaii has been just about the bluest state around (not counting MA, of course).

I would say, that's my point. But's it's not.

Michael, at the end of the ... (Below threshold)

Michael, at the end of the day I probably still own a lot more toys than you, so who's the poor fool here. But I also do a lot for charity which I don't usually talk much about because I'm sort of embarrassed how far I will go to help some unfortunate persons. Just this Saturday was a good example. A handicapped guy I know wanted a trailer real bad, so I simply bought it for him as a gift. It made him happy, and that was reward enough for me. How did you spend your Saturday?

Maggie, I watch a lot of religious programs, and most of the Black churches seem more truly interested in God, while politics, psychology or prosperity gospels pervade many White churches. All of this makes me glad for the church I sometimes attend with no politics, plenty of God, and plenty of minority members. You call this spiritual discernment for those of you who know anything at all about the Holy Spirit. If you don't have much of it, then you can sit in any church and not realize that God doesn't really live there. Read the Apostle Paul's take on the seven churches of his day to understand this concept. i doubt the Apostle Paul would really approve of one single politics, psychology or success church according to this account. But if you think you know better than the Apostle Paul, then God help you.

As for your stating that... (Below threshold)
Parthenon:

As for your stating that these qualities - thoughtfulness and humility - are unpopular with this crowd, well then, show us when these qualities are genuine rather than feigned or used as a tactic. It may be what you saw, but I didn't.

Ah, Oyster, your reasonable and thoughtful nature has disarmed me again, and once again you've caught me engaging my rather weak trollish instincts. I was referencing the stereotype about conservatives that they prefer candidates, executives and legislators who do first and think later, if they think at all - the whole 'decider' tough-guy stubborn attitude, whereas liberals prefer the thoughtful technocrat types.

Well, thank goodness Paul d... (Below threshold)
OhioVoter:

Well, thank goodness Paul doesn't brag about his (alleged) good works. ;-)

However, he did manage to not only insult white churches (and pastors), but African-American churches (and pastors) as well in his post. He was an equal opportunity offender.

Anyone reading Warren's comments will get see one point repeatedly. He consistently refuses to take a side or to indicate a preference between candidates. I'm guessing that he wants to protect Saddleback's non-profit status with the IRS.

Compare that point-of-view with the countless black churches we have seen in campaign video from this election and past elections showing Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, (as I recall) John Edwards, and other Democratic candidates speaking from the pulpit during Sunday service without time for an opposing opinion to be heard. In some pictures, (again as I recall) the parishioners are holding campaign information (fans with Kerry/Edwards 04 for example).

Apparently, Paul thinks that those African American pastors cared little for the Spirit and only for the almighty dollar as well.

"...as well as repeated ... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"...as well as repeated declarations of his wealth and success."

And right on cue, Hooson chimes in again on his wealth and success. And just in case we didn't know, his sense of charity and magnanimity is so extensive it's embarrassing. Why just last Saturday...

He doesn't like to talk about it though. But hey, how did YOU spend YOUR Saturday? Doing something selfish, I'm sure.

Hey Paul, for some reason you feel you need to keep reminding us of your success and largess. I don't know why that is, but the "why" intrigues me more than your tales of real estate dealings (which you're also so modest about), how many "toys" you have (how could we forget?) and now your selfless charity. Is there something you're lacking in your personal life? Like affirmation, so you seek it here - from a bunch of strangers on the Internet? Is it because you think if you do enough bragging about your success, it somehow validates any opinion you express here? I don't know. I'm just trying to guess.

I know a guy like you who's always reminding us of how much money he makes/has, what important person he rubbed elbows with last week or what eminently important project he's been asked to head up. Frankly, when he starts talking, people around him always seem to remember they have to go do something.

But anyway, I have to go now. I just remembered I have to clean the baseboards....

Oyster, I'm shocked!! You o... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Oyster, I'm shocked!! You of all people speaking about our president that way!!

And Paul, it wasn't your na... (Below threshold)

And Paul, it wasn't your namesake speaking about seven churches. It was the Lord Himself, speaking to John.

JFO, I'm shocked!! You did... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

JFO, I'm shocked!! You didn't say anything of substance!!

Oh dear, and your ad homine... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Oh dear, and your ad hominen attacks (several) on Hoosen are?

Actually I would have calle... (Below threshold)
OhioVoter:

Actually I would have called JFO's comment incoherent rather than lacking substance, Oyster. ;-)

"Oh dear, and your ad ho... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"Oh dear, and your ad hominen attacks (several) on Hoosen are?"

JFO, is this your rationalization for your first remark?

I answered to Jay Tea's prediction of what Paul's response would consist of. And he was spot on. It was not an ad hominem attack. It was an observation well documented by simply reading many of his missives. I included an admission that I didn't know why he so often peppers his posts with bragging about his material wealth and I added valid questions about why. In no way did I use this observation about him to try and discredit any particular thing he said.

Although it could be argued that Paul himself engaged in a tactic known as "circumstantial argumentum ad hominem" by implication, when he included this statement: "It made him happy, and that was reward enough for me. How did you spend your Saturday?" He did this only recently when relaying that he spent the weekend talking to real estate people about a new property and asked, "How did you spend your weekend?" The implication is clear. The person he spoke to should be able to answer with something equally impressive or be dismissed.

Michael:... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Michael:

My God what a moron Hoosen is. Just more proof that liberalism is a disease.

Paul Hooson:

Michael, at the end of the day I probably still own a lot more toys than you, so who's the poor fool here.

Q.E.D.

Mr.Hoosan.The only p... (Below threshold)
maggie:

Mr.Hoosan.
The only proof of what you purport and be a
braggart about is the length of your tongue, to
which I can witness as being kept in your cheek.

In Mr. Hooson's defense, hi... (Below threshold)

In Mr. Hooson's defense, his predicted response might have been, indeed, tongue in cheek and simply playing along by deliberately fulfilling my prediction.

If it wasn't, then by god it should have been.

J.




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