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Jesus Wept

I'm not quite sure how it happened, but it seems to have devolved to DJ and me to discuss matters theological around these parts. With DJ, it's understandable; he has a deep, abiding faith and every now and then (very rarely) he discusses it, usually in very personal terms.

Me? I'm a damned agnostic (pun partly intended). I HAVE no faith. I think that gives me a feeling that I can give objective analysis, as I have no stake in the game.

Well, the big thign going around now is the mockery of "community organizers" and the backlash from same -- with extra emphasis on the argument that "Jesus was a community organizer."

Occasionally supplemented with "and Pilate was a governor."

Well, as a non-follower of Mr. Christ, let me just say that that particular meme is a crock of bull.

If you go by the Bible (and as it's pretty much the only source for info on Jesus' life), you find that he didn't really have much of a "community" -- he was a nomad. He wandered around, telling people how they really ought to live their lives and showing them that there was a better way and that they would be rewarded in the next life.

He drew people together and told them that they were good, that they could do good things, that God loved them and they ought to love another and live good lives.

He didn't get people together and talk about how awful their status was.

He didn't demand that the government make people's lives better.

He didn't demand money from the wealthy and powerful so he could better help the poor.

He didn't involve himself in governmental affairs.

Show me a community organizer who would pick up a coin and say "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's." No, they're more likely to say something like "this means nothing to the fatcats who run this city, but it's the difference between life and death to the poor! We need more, especially from those who have so much of it!"

I can't see Jesus going to a polling place, except as a convenient place to find people to preach to. The same with any kind of a political rally.

You want a really good laugh? Imagine Christ at the Sermon on the Mount, instructing the apostles to pass around voter registration cards.

Of course, this overlooks the sheer strategic stupidity of the Obamoids. "Hey, stop making fun of our guy by calling him the Obamessiah! Don't you realize he's just like Jesus?"

As I said, I'm an agnostic, but it's not from ignorance. I have a pretty decent grasp of the Bible and Christian theology -- I just don't buy into it. I respect it, and I only "attack" religion and people's faith when they either try to use it to justify what I consider something wrong or try to push it on me, but I just lack the "faith" gene or something.

And that is just enough to notice that the dumbest attempts to apply Christian theology almost always comes from those who know the least about it -- and hold it in the most contempt. That is when I feel the compunction to educate those idiots on the facts.

""Know thy enemy and know yourself." Sun Tzu, another noted non-Christian, gave that advice. Obamoids, you're not devout Christian members of the Religious Right, and you can't be bothered to actually learn what they think and believe, so don't even try to out-theologize them.

Oh, and by the way, yes, Pilate was a governor. So were Bill Clinton, Michael Dukakis, Mario Cuomo, Ann Richards, and Jimmy Carter, just to name a few. Sarah Palin is currently one. So are Kathleen Sebelius, Deval Patrick, Jon Corzine, Bill Richardson, Tim Kaine, Jennifer Granholm, Rod Blagojevich, and Ed Rendell. Your point, exactly?


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Comments (30)

This quaint little bit of h... (Below threshold)
Mike:

This quaint little bit of homespun wisdom is theologically equivalent to the often-repeated liberal canard that Mary and Joseph were "homeless." In other words, it is total nonsense.

Theology aside, the fact is... (Below threshold)
Rance:

Theology aside, the fact is that the party has done a disservice to a lot of people, who they have honored in the past.


Wednesday night, Rudy Giuliani was at his worst.

The major success on his resume, the recovery from 9/11, was in large part accomplished through work that was done a low levels by volunteers, who organized all the support systems for the first responders at Ground Zero. And he turned on them to score some political points.

The low-light was when he turned up the sarcasm and guffawed over the words "Community Organizer?", like they were some lesser form of human.

Nice two-faced dump on the little people, Rudy.

What a dick!

These insane lefty crybabie... (Below threshold)
Knightbrigade:

These insane lefty crybabies are in panic mode.

But,but,but..boo hoo Community Organizers ARE SOMBODY!!!!!!! YES they sure are, but that position does NOT demonstrate the qualities needed to be PRESIDENT of ANYTHING not just the USA. If that were the case, then a Little League President has just as much if not MORE of a claim.

Lefties can scream, cry, stomp their feet, or dream up more stupid excuses, nobody is listening or gives a rat ass. Well, except to maybe ridicule and laugh at them.

PALIN'S the VP nominee, she has way MORE executive experience than the Democrat PPRESIDENTIAL & VP nominee's combined and that's THAT.
.....TOUGH SH&%

Rudy's only accomplishment ... (Below threshold)
NJinOhio Author Profile Page:

Rudy's only accomplishment was not just 9/11. He crack down on crime and giving NYPD the authority to go after crime cleaned up areas like Time Square. I remember what Times Square was like in the 70s and 80s. Not a good place to be.

Rudy real accomplishment was helping NY recover from Dinkins. 9/11 was just the end of the run.

Dem/Liberal revisionism is amazing.

Obama was also a Civil Righ... (Below threshold)
Setay:

Obama was also a Civil Rights Attorney, Taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago and was a State Senator before running for president.

Before Palin was mayor of a suburb she was a Sports newscaster and a PTA member.

If you're going to judge people by their first jobs out of college, you better dish it out equally.

It's Non-Profit work vs. Sports with Saracuda or Illinois State legislator vs. Resort town mayor. (I'm from the west, the local sales tax initiative that she promoted for Wasilla is commonly known as a resort tax)

Setay, we know just what Pa... (Below threshold)

Setay, we know just what Palin accomplished in her prior jobs.

Obama's record of "accomplishments" is a big fat ZERO.

Palin has been governor longer than Obama was a Senator before he started running for president.

Palin's record is one of ayes and nays. Obama's is one of "present."

Palin has her records of wins and losses. Obama's is filled with also-rans.

Yes, Obama has a pretty list of jobs he's held. But when you ask "what the hell did he actually do while holding those jobs," you get a lot of blank stares.

...and didn't Keith Olbermann start out as a sports newscaster?

J.

The true and funny thing is... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The true and funny thing is that it was the left that started all this by making fun of Palin being mayor of Wasilly. Now the tables are turned and obama and all are whining. Obama's people surely wish they did not open this can of worms. Talk about a backlash and huge help for McCain. ww

(Jesus Wept)I read t... (Below threshold)
frank carter:

(Jesus Wept)
I read the above article, man your silly!!
You are poor and a sorry ass are those who will never come to terms with their senses and see the realities of what's
happening with in the world. These folks are so delusional and in love with evil that are cut off, and impossible to teach them truths and facts

frank carter:What?... (Below threshold)

frank carter:

What? You just wasted 5 minutes of my precious time trying to figure out what you were saying. For lack of a better term I'd call that "stream of un-consciousness writing".

After that great speech by ... (Below threshold)
frank carter:

After that great speech by McCain and his side kick for VP. Too bad I'm a little to old to join the military. I'm trying to encourage my sons and grandchildren to fight for victory. So what! if were wrong in Iraq, Victory is more important, 4 thousand dead in 4 or 5 years that's chicken feed, there are more people kill on our freeways then combat. Would you die for nothing or Victory!!!!?

"Obama's record of "accompl... (Below threshold)
jp2:

"Obama's record of "accomplishments" is a big fat ZERO."

Good little soldier! Follow that party line, even if it involves being dishonest.

Anyways, do you even believe Jesus existed Jay? You sure put a lot into defending the evangelicals.

Those who say Jesus was a c... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Those who say Jesus was a community organizer don't know Jesus.

I have no stake in... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
I have no stake in the game.

Jay, that's quite a statement of faith.

The point isn't that Christ... (Below threshold)
Pete:

The point isn't that Christ agitated politically in the way that you're suggesting. The issue is that he served those in society who were the furthest from power, the poor, the sick, women, children, and challenged us to live our lives in service to those people. Look at Matthew 25:40: "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" It is this theology that leads to Obama's argument about, "the promise of America - the idea that we are responsible for ourselves, but that we also rise or fall as one nation; the fundamental belief that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper." Palin and Giuliani attacked that ethic, one that motivates people to take up community service, and in doing so demonstrated something very troubling about the moral framework they operate within.

In defense of Barry, he has... (Below threshold)
Burt:

In defense of Barry, he has inspired in me at least one of the things that Christ inspired in his contemporaries. I can now see myself in the crowd on Good Friday shouting "Crucify him"

The issue is that ... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
The issue is that he served those in society who were the furthest from power, the poor, the sick, women, children, and challenged us to live our lives in service to those people.

Jeses challenged us to live for God, love the brethren, and lead a quite life. That's unlike any community orginizer who's prime goal is political power.

Matthew 25:40: "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"

This likely refers to the 144,000 sent out in the last days. See Revelations.

"the promise of America - the idea that we are responsible for ourselves, but that we also rise or fall as one nation; the fundamental belief that I am my brother's keeper; I am my sister's keeper."

That's a social contract that works only among those who live up to it. It's also been tried before in Russia and it failed because many people won't live up to their responsibilities when there's no risk from taking it easy and no reward for working hard.

So what about the people who refuse to be responsible for themselves - what's Obama's plan for them? What Obama is really talking about is making hard working people, who are already responsible for themselves, work even harder so others don't need to. We already do that to a great extent in this nation with a progressive income tax, earned income credit, exemptions for children, disability payments, public housing, welfare, education grants, and much more. Now Obama want's to add free health car, but it's not free for working people who will pay for it all. At some point people either quit and go on the dole or join the black market and soon the system collapses.

Palin and Giuliani attacked that ethic, one that motivates people to take up community service, and in doing so demonstrated something very troubling about the moral framework they operate within.

McCain, Palin and Giuliani understand that communism doesn't work because it runs counter to basic human nature. The system of free markets, private property, and low taxes benefits the most people. Our society makes provisions for people down on their luck, disabled, or those who have retired from their work.

Currently there are about 60 million Americans without health insurance, but a solutions that downgrades the health insurance for the other 240 million (the Obama plan) is a bad idea. McCain, Palin and Giuliani know this.

Palin and Giuliani attac... (Below threshold)

Palin and Giuliani attacked that ethic, one that motivates people to take up community service, and in doing so demonstrated something very troubling about the moral framework they operate within.

No, Pete, they attacked the people who CLAIM that, but instead use it for political agitation and furthering their own agenda. While the right is often accused of "wrapping themselves in the flag," the left often does the same with the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden, and whatnot.

One observer noted that "those who refer to the people as 'the masses' end up treating them as such," and that is so right.

Just saying that you're "for the poor" doesn't automagically make you a saint. Far too often, it's just the opposite.

J.

Christ challenged us to liv... (Below threshold)
Pete:

Christ challenged us to live for God, yes, and the example of his life, death, and resurrection shows very clearly that we do this by living for others. God didn't give his only son for himself just as Jesus didn't suffer for himself. He did it for us. To turn his words on our obligation to the least in our midst into a gospel of exclusion, a "got mine" ethic, is the meanest inversion of his teachings. A low paying job whose aim is to help people find jobs and safe housing, to have clean drinking water, or to get addicts off the street isn't a route to power. It's God's work, Mac, and people of all political persuasions have answered that call, including, by the by, faith-based service orgs that the President set up funding for.

You'd also do well to avail yourself of the candidates' tax proposals. Obamas proposes cuts of up to 5.5% for 60% of wage earners and raises them only for those making more than $600,000 a year. McCain's proposals, by comparison, gives between 0.2 and 0.7% to 60% of wage earners but 4.4% back to those making over $2.87 million. That's the top 0.1% of the country, Mac. If self interest is the only motivation we should care about, 60% of the country does better under Obama, but I'm happy to see that his proposals benefit the least among us the most.

Pete, where does Obama's ha... (Below threshold)
Jamie:

Pete, where does Obama's half brother, currently living in abject poverty, figure into Obama's strong "least of these" ethic?

J - I hear you're saying ab... (Below threshold)
Pete:

J - I hear you're saying about rhetoric matching action, but I'd argue that the right's "for the nation" rhetoric often ends up masking narrowly focused benefits. If people on both sides of the partisan divide would live up their rhetoric, we'd all be much better off. again, take a look at Obama's tax proposals; more revenue, lower deficits, and less of a burden for more people sounds like walking the walk to me.

i'll stay away from shudder... (Below threshold)

i'll stay away from shuddering as the flames of hell lick your ass ...

the other big difference between Christ and obama is that after Christ did His work - however you want to classify it - there were tons of people talking about Him and His work.

not only do i not know with any level of clarity what obama did as a "community organizer," i have not read about a single person saying anything close to, "obama helped me when he ..."

the silence is deafening.

Jamie - none of us know the... (Below threshold)
Pete:

Jamie - none of us know the dynamic of the relationship between Barack and George Obama, just as none of us know the full details of McCain and his first wife's relationship or Palin's family life. I don't know what George Obama might want from his brother, or what Barack Obama would give him, any more than you do. What I do know is that more will do better with Barack Obama in the White House, including the least of these.

Pete,Chri... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Pete,

Christ challenged us to live for God, yes, and the example of his life, death, and resurrection shows very clearly that we do this by living for others.

But no where is Jesus taking about a government compelling individuals to do this through taxes. Self-sacrificing love, which is the highest kind of love, can't be imposed upon a person. If it is, it's not self-sacrificing love. Paying taxes, some of which goes to support those who won't or can't support themselves is meaningless in God's eyes beyond a person being law-abiding. There's no love in it, only compulsion and sometimes even hate.

It's evident from the Apostle Paul's teachings that people should work and earn their own way so that they are able to do good works, such as giving to the poor. If society over taxes working people then they are less able to do good works.

To turn his words on our obligation to the least in our midst into a gospel of exclusion, a "got mine" ethic, is the meanest inversion of his teachings.

No, teaching that government can fulfill Jesus teachings of giving to the poor is the meanest inversion of his teachings. You have replaced individuals' self-sacrificing love with the likes of a tax collector of Biblical times.

A low paying job whose aim is to help people find jobs and safe housing, to have clean drinking water, or to get addicts off the street isn't a route to power.

Obama disproves your case. These things are not that person's to give. Their job is to organize a block of voters to gain political power in order to demand these things from the government, things which are paid for by hard working people who are trying to take care of the poor people God has given to them to care for as individuals, which is the true teaching of Jesus.

including, by the by, faith-based service orgs that the President set up funding for.

Unlike community organizers, faith-based organizations don't wield political power, as doing so can cost them their non-profit standing with the IRS. They are volunteers contributing their own time and/or money. I would just as soon that they didn't take any government money.

Obamas proposes cuts of up to 5.5% for 60% of wage earners and raises them only for those making more than $600,000 a year.

You should avail yourself of economics 101. Obama's plan is to shift the tax burden to business and their owners. Anyone buying goods or services from a business or working for a business will pay these taxes through higher prices. It's just a shell game, and it actually reduces the size of the pie we all eat from.

McCain's proposals, by comparison, gives between 0.2 and 0.7% to 60% of wage earners but 4.4% back to those making over $2.87 million. That's the top 0.1% of the country, Mac.

It's the same shell game, but it creates a bigger pie for all of us to eat from. That's the part many don't understand. People who are good at business become rich and they put their money back into business to make even more money, and as a result GDP grows and we all benefit. Why do you think the U.S. has a GDP twice that of the next biggest economy? Many of the really successful people, like Bill Gates, eventually give away much of their wealth so I don't understand why liberals hate successful people.

Good little soldie... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:
Good little soldier! Follow that party line, even if it involves being dishonest.

Pot = Kettle = jp2

And why do you care what or who anyone else believes in when you are too busy calling them by your reflection in the mirror?

One nit to pick, JT - ... (Below threshold)

One nit to pick, JT -

He drew people together and told them that they were good,

Jesus never once said that. Because we're not good. If we were, he would not have had to die on our behalf.

And as long as I'm picking nits, let me get this one off of Mac's otherwise excellent comment -

Currently there are about 60 million Americans without health insurance,

Unless numbers have drastically changed, and I don't think they have (well, I read an article last week that said it went down by a million, actually), there are about 45 million uninsured people, and they are not all Americans. We generally seem to be in agreement, in any event. You might enjoy this video on the uninsured.

It is unconstitutional to l... (Below threshold)
ed davis:

It is unconstitutional to legislate Hope or Faith. I wonder why and how is it that Obama intends to legislate his brand of Charity. And why he thinks it is okay to force non Christians to participate in his method of following Christ (yeah, right... he learned this from reverend wright?). It is amazing how this country allows progressive liberals to throw the welfare clause around while pissing all over the first amendment. For some reason, it reminds me of the sanctity of life they scream about if a car wreck claims the life of a baby, yet another aborted fetus can't claim United States Citizenship because the question of when human life begins is above our paygrade.

Fucking weasels.

Pete,non... (Below threshold)
Jamie:

Pete,

none of us know the dynamic of the relationship between Barack and George Obama

No, but we can read Jesus's response to the question of "who is my neighbor" and I am pretty sure George would be included.
just as none of us know the full details of McCain and his first wife's relationship or Palin's family life.

I think that may have won you the award of the day for most creative use of talking points.
I don't know what George Obama might want from his brother, or what Barack Obama would give him, any more than you do.

I actually have a suspicion that George would like a roof over his head, and I do know that's more than Barack has been willing to do to date.

What I do know is that more will do better with Barack Obama in the White House, including the least of these

Would you consider a baby who was born alive after an attempt at an abortion "the least of these?"

I do. The record shows in stark detail Barack's concern for "the least of these."

Pete:You have made... (Below threshold)
Larry:

Pete:

You have made up your mind and nothing I can say is going to change your decision. I know that. Just as a demonstration that some folks, like me, can disagree with your choice for good reason, let me provide for you why I think you need to reconsider, or at least honor my own decision as I honor yours.

The reason Republicans dislike community organizers has nothing to do with good, bad or evil. It has to do with ACORN. ACORN is very, very good at somehow (some saying paying) street people to go vote democratic in elections. ACORN is a community organizer and is NOT nonprofit so they don't have to reveal where they get their funding. Of course the Dems LOVE acorn. Wouldn't you.

And not all dems love community organizers. Dem mayors of cities where community organizers have demanded more services than the dem mayors can provide (budgets ARE budgets), work up a pretty good nasty about matters.

At the end of the day, Obama was tired of the community organizer bit he was paid to do. He felt that nobody was being helped. He felt he was not having the level of life and lifestyle he wanted. He decided to get his law degree and go from there. Note that he felt he was not making a difference in people's lives. And he was right. Some community organizers make a difference, especially those that are faith based. Er, guess who started those.

ACORN management supposedly has a good life and the dems are grateful for the help acorn gives in getting some of them elected. So far as I know or can find by research, the street people are still street people and the folks who live in substandard public housing, most often overseen by Democratic Mayors of major cities like Detroit, still live in substandard housing.

We have lost the war on poverty after trillions of dollars spent.

What bothers me about Obama isn't really Obama, although I don't trust him. He is a proud product of the Chicago machine, arguably one of the most corrupt in the country. But that doesn't much bother me except for a pause and a blink or two. After all Harry Truman was also a product of machine politics. And he did great.

What bothers me is Michelle Obama. Uh oh, you can't bash family, right? Obama said that and so did McCain.

But wait, Michelle had a public job and I am going to bash her for the job she had and the job she has done, not her marriage to Obama or that Obama is running for President of the United States.

Michelle Obama was making very, very large bucks doing two things essentially. One, she has attracted millions of federal grant funds. Two, it is her job to do what? Let's take a look:

"Without mentioning her name, Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, has asked the University of Chicago Medical Center to detail how Michelle Obama got her job as the head of community relations. Mrs. Obama, the wife of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, was paid $317,000 annually. She has taken a leave of absence from the job.

"In his letter, Grassley said he was "troubled" by an article in the Washington Post that detailed the connections between the hospital, the Obamas and the public-relations firm run by David Axelrod, Obama's campaign manager.

"Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, has been investigating the tax-exempt status of nonprofits for years. "

So what was the Washington Post article? Never mind, here is a better one:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1122691,CST-NWS-hosp23.article

I happen to know quite a bit about dumping, emergency room care and alternative means of helping people in need. The best of the best have both an emergency facility which handles real emergency and an alternate facility which takes in patients who are not real emergencies. Patients are triaged and dispatched accordingly, they are not DUMPED on other facilities.

Axelrod is good at spin, it is what he does.

Oh, and Michelle got her promotion right after Obama was elected US Senator. Coincidence? I don't think so.


Pete, under the law we are ... (Below threshold)
wilky:

Pete, under the law we are all equal*.


*the IRS is the one exception. You become to productive they feel the need to pull you back to the rest of the lazy smucks by taking more of yours than theirs. Obama believes the top 5% paying half of all income taxes isn't enough. Funny thing, even God only asks for 10% of what ever you make.
--
Speaking of God. Isn't it a little odd that people who believe it is the womans choice as to which life shall be allowed to continue to grow and which shall be terminated on her convenience are the same ones quoting scripture to argue their point. Yea, thats real credibile.
----
Also, there are many on the right that mock Obama as the Lightworker, the Messiah or the One. Are you sure that comparing community organizers as Jesus is a good idea? Just wondering.

"If you go by the Bible ... (Below threshold)
res:

"If you go by the Bible (and as it's pretty much the only source for info on Jesus' life)"

Just for the record, Jesus is mentioned in numerous extra-Biblical writings...





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