You know what's best about this faux scandal?

It gives Sarah Palin the chance to lecture the "intellectual" press and their carefully quoted experts on an issue of current importance.

She can immediately establish street cred on the all-important mortgage crisis -- something she's not actually an expert on.

Best part: Joe Biden absolutely CANNOT touch this issue with a hundred yard noodle. He would be roasted alive, with his record on the credit card industry and bankruptcy bill.

Please, NYT, please, CNN, pick up this "gaffe". Pretty please!

"In a nutshell Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not private companies in the real sense."

Actually they most assuredly are.

Yes, they were initially government programs (well Freddie was) but then then Freddie was sold off as a private firm, and Fannie was started up to act as competition. Lots of aspects of our economy, and companies therein, are heavily regulated by the government - but is just a flat out lie to pretend to Freddie and Fannie are government programs or anyhting like it.

Moreover, the "gaffe" here was that Palin said that they had got too expensive for the taxpayers - which is arse backwards because in fact, the bailout of Freddie and Fannie is going to be payed for at tax-payers expense. ( as an aside - I've seen some serious discussion of whether in fact they should be bailed out by the Gvt./taxpayers).

So in summary, she clearly doesn't know what she's talking about. And since we're in the middle of a housing/mortgage crisis, I'd say that's a pretty big gaffe.

Oh and Kim, did you leave out this part of the description of Freddie and Fannie from the HUD website you link to for some reason?

Even though Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are Congressionally chartered, they are also private, shareholder-owned corporations that have been regulated by HUD since 1968 and 1989, respectively. Both GSEs fund residential mortgages by purchasing loans directly from lenders, such as mortgage bankers and depository institutions, and holding these loans in portfolio or by issuing mortgage-backed securities (MBS) that are sold to a wide variety of investors in the capital markets.

Gee, and associating with radicals (da Rev and that liberal terrorist flunkie) who hate America gets a pass....

Kapow, you moron, reading comprehension is still tough for you, hmm? The operative word is "real", as in, we all understand that these agencies expected a government bailout from before this was even a crisis, which is one reason it became one. Real private companies understand that if they crash, they crash alone, and that's the risk they take.

Palin was and is correct on the essence of the issue, and folks like you who cannot think the situation through from how regular people see it, do not see how this arrogance continues to remind regular people how little the Democrats understand the real world. You're so busy with 'truthiness' you have lost touch with Reality.

I hope we start playing the gaffe game. Obama never makes any gaffes, he is just too smart. /S

Actually they most assuredly are.

They used to be private companies, but not after today's purchase of 80% of their equity by the federal government.

And given that, as GSE's, their several trillion in guaranties were tantamount to government control, it's a little inside baseball to quibble on this.

My post #7 above wasn't very clear. My beef is with the Democrat apparatchik Dean Baker, not with Kim's post.

So what was Bear Stearns DJ?

I understand perfectly well how Freddie and Fannie were operated. My point was that Palin clearly doesn't, and moreover, that Kim's selective quoting from the HUD website was disingenuous.

You're pretty quick with the personal invective there DJ - it's almost like I touched a nerve or something...

Actually Kapow, I am amused. You are proving Kim's point with every sneer you post. Keep it up!

So they had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers"--so big, and so expensive, that the taxpayers are now having to bail them out?

Not saying the bail out is a bad thing--global markets responded like it's actually quite a good thing, and airlines (and soon the auto industry) have used bailouts like this to survive so might as well extend the same courtesy to a more essential sector--but Palin clearly misspoke, or doesn't know what she's talking about. If it's not the *taxpayer* paying for government-subsidized bail outs, who is it? China?

howcome - "I hope we start playing the gaffe game. Obama never makes any gaffes, he is just too smart. /S"

The hell you say?! The Gaff Master making a gaff, in the foreign policy arena? Who'd a thunk it.

As for Kapow, yeah, you keep on thinking along them lines of logic.

It's exactly what the CEO's of both outfits counted on, i.e. the public buying a pig in a poke.

All the while what their dirty little secret they toasted each other with was operating under a business model of private profit but public loss.

AND when finally caught at it, via the collapse, are shoved aside with as yet no personal penalties and upwards of 14 million dollar golden parachutes.

New Poll alert:

Michigan now McCain trailing by only one pt!!

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_Michigan_908.pdf

Care to elaborate on that DJ?

Do you mean my example of Bear Stearns, which I assume you and I agree is a real private company?

Or are you conceding that Kim was being disingenuous when quoting from the HUD website?

Or maybe you mean that since "ordinary folks" - like you for example - know diddly about economics, so Palin's ignorance will appeal to "middle America"?

I hope it's the first two DJ, because if it's the third option, that's pretty freaking cynical...

For the record, I don't think taxpayers should be underwriting private companies like this. That's the worst of all worlds - shareholders get the profit when the company is run well, and we get left holding the bag when things fall apart.

I'm just quibbling with Kim/DJ's attempt to make Palin's comment on the current crisis not appear to be as ignorant and wrong-headed as it is...

marc, let's grant that everything you just said is correct, as it probably is. Please reconcile that with Palin's statement that FM & FM were "too big and too expensive to the taxpayers"--so big that the taxpayers now have to eat 80% of these piles of shit.

hyper - "marc, let's grant that everything you just said is correct

And lets grant your track record indicates you're hardly worth debating.

Kapow, just the fact that you're having to squibble over this means you're desperate. Good luck with getting your average Joe to care about this.

Meanwhile Michigan rapidly moving in our camp.

Kapow, keep looking for ammo cuz you haven't found any yet.

No one's asking you to debate, marc. I'm asking you to explain how Palin's comment makes sense if one understands a) what's actually happening with those entities; and b) the meaning of the words she used. Go on, give it a shot.

Kapow,

Palin agrees with you. Taxpayers should not have to bail these companies out, but Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae as GSE's were created in such a way that they were going to ultimately come to this because those running the GSE's take irresponsible risks all day long because in the end they know they won't be responsible for them.

Not knowing how two of the largest lending entities in your nation works during a time of pretty serious financial concern won't resonate with the average Joe, Jo? Do you really have such low regard for the intellect of other people in your country?

Fair enough, Kim, except that's not what she said.

For the record, I don't think taxpayers should be underwriting private companies like this. That's the worst of all worlds - shareholders get the profit when the company is run well, and we get left holding the bag when things fall apart.

Kapow, this is exactly what a GSE is, which is why it's not a private company in the real sense. It was created by the US government and subsidized by the US government to the tune of $200 billion a year, but the load of irresponsible loans became so huge, which was Palin's point, that it collapsed under its own weight, so the US taxpayers are now responsible. That's how GSE's are structured, which is why I quoted the part of the HUD page that I did.

but the load of irresponsible loans became so huge, which was Palin's point, that it collapsed under its own weight, so the US taxpayers are now responsible.

No, that wasn't Palin's point at all, Kim - and DJ, where is your reading comprehension snark now?

She said their burden had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers", which is rather hard to reconcile with the the fact that only now have the taxpayers had to bail them out.

She said their burden had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers", which is rather hard to reconcile with the the fact that only now have the taxpayers had to bail them out.

That's exactly what she meant. That's what GSE's are. Everyone knew this, too. A couple people were on with Neil Cavuto today, one was Larry Sabato and the other was Lawrence Sumner, and each one said that Congress knew this was going to happen. They could see it coming down the pike and did nothing to stop it - I'm totally paraphrasing here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Freddie and Fannie were costing the American taxpayers a bundle.

"were costing" -- incorrect
"have now cost" -- that would be the verb tense you're looking for.

No, no, no - you can't have this both ways.

Palin was explaining to the audience what had happened with FM and FM, she said that they had become "too big and too expensive to the taxpayers". However, that is NOT WHAT HAPPENED - she didn't mean the bailout was too big and expensive, she meant that FM and FM were failing BECAUSE they were too big and expensive for taxpayers. She was wrong, wrong, wrong!

Jeez louise, it's not that complicated and it definitely was a gaffe - get over it!

hyper - "No one's asking you to debate, marc."

Let me be clear, no, it's plain by my first post that elicited your question my stance on the matter.

Put even more plainly, I'm done suffering the fools gladly.

Can somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but are not the past CEO and present CEO of Fanny Mae the chief economic advisors for the Obama campaign?

Kapow, whatever....but let's keep talking about these two GSE's because the names that pop up during the autopsy will make for lots of fun.

Jamie Gorelick (you remember her, right?) was Vice Chairman of Fannie Mae from 1997 to 2003 and was right in the middle of the accounting fraud that FNMA admitted to later. I think she walked off with about $30,000,000.

Then there was Franklin Raines....

Kapow just keeps insisting we must interpret Governor Palin's comments by his elitist, one-dimensional perspective.

As I said, kapow crunch (your name sounds like a kiddy cereal, and your logic is not up to Middle School level, so - eh), you just keep on pushing the John Kerry version of your spin, and see where it gets you. Regular folks won't see Palin's words as a gaffe, but they may look at the Obamaneuver as a big one ...

kapow - "she didn't mean the bailout was too big and expensive, she meant that FM and FM were failing BECAUSE they were too big and expensive for taxpayers.

Are we to presume you have the powers of Kreskin and know exactly what was her intent? Or should we continue to quibble over BS that can't be proved either way.

Alright, marc, if that's the sort of willful ignorance that you want to wear on your sleeve, be my guest. Palin either misspoke or misunderstood(stands?) the subject at hand, and that stands independent of your willingness to acknowledge it.

Hugh: certainly a topic worth exploring, but it's separate from this one, which is whether or not Palin misspoke or didn't know what she was talking about, and it's clear that that's the case.

What the big deal is, is anyone's guess, as she isn't running for chief economic advisor. People misspeak, and nobody knows everything. Sheesh.

This "gaffe" is about as weak as it comes. Just read her quote..couldnt be anymore self-explanatory.

"Alright, marc, if that's the sort of willful ignorance that you want to wear on your sleeve, be my guest."

See above to ref the following...FO, now pack up your little wagon of "disingeniousness" and head north. Where your vote actually counts. And maybe even your opinion.

Why did you put "disingeniousness" in quotation marks? And why did you spell it wrong?

As you're either unwilling or unable to address my point--that Palin's remark does not in fact reflect the facts of the matter--I'll just take your childish non-replies as tacit acknowledgement of what I was saying, and cease trying to get you to acknowledge that Palin is a fallible human being.

Maybe the quote marks also relate to the spelling. Maybe my disinterest in responding is because you refuse to include in your options the most obvious answer.

No one, and I repeat for possible cranial penetration, no one in this thread has the ability to read her mind and decipher her real meaning.

"These people need to be investigated not rewarded. "

Maybe we can bring back debtors prison and put them in a cell until the losses are paid back.

I asked Stein over at the Huff Post to explain how the owner/publisher of his site could go so many years, clueless, without being able to figure out that her husband was gay!!!!

They are idiots, they have nothing!!!

Sarah is the One, she will blow away Uncle Joe Bin Biden,D-Tehran, on Oct 2nd, but want I would really want to see is the Sarah Barracuda vs. Barry "Above my pay Grade" Obama...

That Muslim coward is scared to death of her...just like he intimated to little Georgie on ABC.

Oh DJ, where do we begin? What's one dimensional about holding someone to account for what they said?

If an elitist is someone who expects people in government to know how the government actually works then I guess I'm elitist, and that in turn would make you a fool. Then again we knew that already, didn't we DJ?

And, you're right Marc, nothing means anything and everything means nothing. I'm so glad we subscribe to the same relativistic, post-modern world view...
now let's get on with debating something important, how about the meaning of "is"?

Go Carlos go!

Wait - are you one of those illegal aliens I've heard so much about?

Be prepared folks, we're going to see these sorts of "gaffes" from now until election day.

They must stop Sarah Palin at all costs, no matter how silly it might make them look now. They're running scared.

Go Sarah!

Carlos...whatever - "That Muslim coward is scared to death of her...just like he intimated to little Georgie on ABC."

You do all fair-minded a disservice. Put more bluntly shut the hell up your doing the lefts bidding with that crapola.

ka[r]pow - "And, you're right Marc, nothing means anything and everything means nothing. I'm so glad we subscribe to the same relativistic, post-modern world view..."

You didn't answer the original question posed... what power do you possess that allows you with such certainty to know what she was thinking and in what context?

But don't be concerned... I didn't expect one.

From the American Spectator:
"You look at Obama's economic advisers, the guys he has counted on from day one and who have raised him a ton -- and I mean a ton -- of money: Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson, both of them are waist to neck deep in the mortgage debacle."

"Both Raines and Johnson have served as CEO of Fannie Mae, with Raines taking over from Johnson. Both are key political and economic advisers to Obama."

Barry always seems to have such nice friends that he plays with! lol

Hmm... missed this fun, but here goes -
kappy, FNMA was, from it's founding during FDR's admin, a Government institution.
Yes, it was split up in '68 (GNMA took over a # of functions), but FNMA was still "on the books" with legislative oversight as far back as '74, IIRC, so it is perfectly legit to refer to "the taxpayer's" role in running FNMA. FWIW, FHLMC was under HUD's oversight for a number of years...

So, even though there was no explicit "guarantee" per se, there can be no doubt that both GSEs had the taxpayer "on the hook". By any measure, the quote reflects reality.

J

6 colleges in 5 years finally pays off with that Ph.D. level explanation. Well done, Ms. Palin.

BTW, the entire charter (in PDF format) is here:

http://www.fanniemae.com/global/pdf/aboutfm/understanding/charter.pdf

It very clearly notes the controls and influence of the Federal government over FNMA and GNMA, unlike the controls & influence on private companies.

J (another J)

Had to wade through 45 posts to get some good factual info -

Thanks jess & jpe!

Marc, I think you meant K[r]apow - and really this sort of dig is beneath you, leave it to people (not you DJ!) who haven't got anything even vaguely worthwhile to add to the discussion. Enough snide insults (hi DJ!) wrapped in veiled compliments.

To answer your question: that "power I possess", which allows me to understand a very straight-forward statement like Ms. Palin's? That would be common sense.

marc, nobody would conflate what some asshole like Carlos has to say with any other commenter's opinion. Good on you for stepping on that worm anyway, though.

If the ground you're standing on in this oh-so-trivial discussion has been reduced to "you can't read her mind", then please, refrain from ever criticizing anything that Obama ever says because at that instance, he would be the only person in the world privy to the true meaning thereof.

Words mean things; hers fail to represent the factual state of affairs to which she was referring; ergo, she's a fallible human being. That's all you have to concede to end this boring conversation.

Words mean things; hers fail to represent the factual state of affairs to which she was referring; ergo, she's a fallible human being.

Well let's see how honest the libs actually are. Let's say for the moment that Palin did mispeak, a gaffe. Now I want the libs to then follow their logic and announce loudly and proudly that since Obama claimed his muslim faith than that means he is a devout muslim. If I were to guess the libs would still defy their logic (well Palin stated FM and FM were public than she doesn't know the difference). How about it libs? IS your messiah the muslim he claims himself to be?

After all words mean something and he said "my Muslim faith"

marc, nobody would conflate what some asshole like Carlos has to say with any other commenter's opinion. Good on you for stepping on that worm anyway, though.

Such a sheltered life you live hyper, it's done all the time in the highest places of both Parties and in the MSM.

moonbat detective - "How about it libs? IS your messiah the muslim he claims himself to be?"

Or, does he really believe 10,000 people died during the recent tornados in Kansas.

Or "been in 57 states? I think one left to go."

Or that the lack of U.S. language translators are a result of having... "a certain number of them and if they are all in Iraq, then it's harder for us to use them in Afghanistan."

"Forgetting" Iraqis speak Arabic or Kurdish, the Afghanis speak Pashto and Farsi.

Moonbat Detective, as he also misspoke, then we could (should) also say that his words failed to reflect reality as such, as Obama is not and never was a Muslim, and that's a tired bit of bigot-baiting nonsense that sane people shelved months ago. He's had his fair share of misstatements, and now Palin has had one too. No need to go apoplectic, but you can take the halo off the Palin doll in the shrine you erected in your mother's walk-in closet. The Palimessiah is but human.

marc--I know. As someone to the left of center, it's fun being lumped into the same bucket with Code Pink and the Democratic Underground. I do love the smell of old Birkenstocks and unwashed dreadlocks...

marc--McCain had to be corrected by Lieberman as to the nature of the terrorists in Iraq. (Al Qaeda and Iran being two different geopolitical actors, and all that.)

You know what? It's a good thing, regardless of who wins the election, that decisions which incorporate a lot of facts about the world--those related to foreign policy, for instance--are not made while flying by the seat of one's pants, and involve a large number of people with very good understanding of the subject at hand. So when Obama forgets that Iraqis don't speak Pashtun, or when McCain forgets that Al Qaeda are not Shi'ite, or when Palin misunderstands the taxpayer's relationship to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, one can take solace in the fact that these people will be allowed to pause to consult with experts before making any decisions. Campaigning is gruelling, and if an important qualification to you is that a candidate not have any brain farts for which they can be ridiculed, then surely your priorities are a bit off.

Now you must be Kreskin, a bad version, because they're a few issues with Palin that I do not agree with, one being issuing the windfall profits tax refund. It made some people money and I guess the majority approved it. Anyway, if your sole evidence is that her words spoke that FM and FM are/were public entities than you have to also conclude that my saying "my Muslim faith" must mean what is says. And if he is Muslim why are you so apopletic denying he is a Muslim? Is that not bigotry? After all, can't we all just get along?

Just a bit of research. An Islamic radiologist that I work with states that since he is the son of a practicing Muslim that means that the son is also Muslim whether he wants to be or not.

Wow Kapow,
You really won this round.
Why are these people so incapable of admitting that Palin was wrong, and that KP was, well, lying?

I mean, we can all stipulate that making a gaffe is not an automatic disqualifier for public office. Palin is, gasp, a human being. She makes mistakes, as do we all.

Sounds like there be a cult developing. Is she "the one"?

Except, PC, that she, in this case, as I pointed out before, is correct. Other statements, well, YMMV.

J (another J)

(lovin the comma thing tonight...)

Now I want the libs to then follow their logic and announce loudly and proudly that since Obama claimed his muslim faith than that means he is a devout muslim.

As pointed out previously, that's not at all what he did. Obama said, "McCain has not talked about my Mulsim faith". Stephanopolous misunderstood him, and Obama then clarified, "What I'm talking about is, he hasn't suggested that I'm a Muslim."

It's like if McCain said, "Obama has not talked about me fathering a black baby." He wouldn't be admitting to that; he would be saying that Obama isn't using the tactics that others have used.

Someone else said it clearly: 'In context, it is clear that if Obama was writing down what he was saying to Stephanopolous, the words "Muslim faith" would be surrounded by quotations.

Someone else said it clearly: 'In context, it is clear that if Obama was writing down what he was saying to Stephanopolous, the words "Muslim faith" would be surrounded by quotations.

I'm sorry... when was he writing his response during the interview?

Sure... Use that excuse when he's castrated in the debates... "He said he wouldn't raise taxes...but he meant it in quotation marks!" ain't gonna help you. Is he going to use "implied quotations" when dealing with political tyrants, too?

Wow, I've not scene this much troll activity since... ever.

You think something's aggravating them?

Sure, go ahead and pretend you don't understand context. Quote his first sentence, but not his second. See how that works for you.

You think something's aggravating them?

Yes, an unprecedented level of stupidity coming from the right.

from a historical standpoint it's hard to object to the government's mass bailouts since similar debt-producing methods were put into action to save the U.S. from the Depression; maybe we've been headed for socialism this entire time...