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Fight For Sarah!

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FactCheck.org has published a debunking of some of the latest pack of lies being pushed be lefty bloggers and their mainstream media accomplices. It's a must read.

We've been flooded for the past few days with queries about dubious Internet postings and mass e-mail messages making claims about McCain's running mate, Gov. Palin. We find that many are completely false, or misleading.
  • Palin did not cut funding for special needs education in Alaska by 62 percent. She didn't cut it at all. In fact, she tripled per-pupil funding over just three years.
  • She did not demand that books be banned from the Wasilla library. Some of the books on a widely circulated list were not even in print at the time. The librarian has said Palin asked a "What if?" question, but the librarian continued in her job through most of Palin's first term.
  • She was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a group that wants Alaskans to vote on whether they wish to secede from the United States. She's been registered as a Republican since May 1982.
  • Palin never endorsed or supported Pat Buchanan for president. She once wore a Buchanan button as a "courtesy" when he visited Wasilla, but shortly afterward she was appointed to co-chair of the campaign of Steve Forbes in the state.
  • Palin has not pushed for teaching creationism in Alaska's schools. She has said that students should be allowed to "debate both sides" of the evolution question, but she also said creationism "doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

A few of these claims were included in a chain e-mail by a woman named Anne Kilkenny. We'll be looking into other charges in that e-mail for a future story. For more explanation of the bullet points above, please read the Analysis.

Here's the link: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html

I've found myself in the exact same situation as the one Jay Tea wrote about yesterday:

I'll admit I have a bit of a personal grievance here. Twice this week friends of mine who, for some reason, consider me their "expert" on political matters, contacted me about stories being spread about Sarah Palin. In both cases, those stories were completely and utterly false, deliberate lies intended to smear her and persuade people to not vote for her and McCain. And in both cases, my friends had been forwarded an article from Daily Kos touting the lies as indisputable facts.

Let's face facts, the mainstream media isn't going to be interested in debunking the lies being spread about Sarah Palin. The left knows this and they also know that the lies (even if later debunked) may have an impact on votes who aren't obsessive consumers of news or blog readers. If the lies are repeated between friends and in communities they take on a life of their own.

The only way to combat this smear campaign is to go right over the head's of the media (as Ronald Reagan taught us) and spread the truth to the voters of America - your friends, colleagues, co-workers, and community members.

Stop what you're doing right now and take the pledge to fight for Sarah, now! Send the FactCheck.org link to 10 people (or more) people in your address book. If you're looking for a more dangerous mission, spread the link (and future debunking links) back to the sources of the lies.

Truth is a righteous weapon. Use it to slay the Obama hate machine.


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Comments (106)

Just sent it to 15 in my ad... (Below threshold)

Just sent it to 15 in my address book.

Let the grass roots make the truth known.
Let us fight the good fight. Let us make this victory for the kind of America that people like bill ayers, jerry wright, tony rezco,"father" flegler, michelle obama, joe biden,the whole dang drive by media, and yes, even mr. obama hisself, would despise and catch a slow boat to sweden to escape.

Looks like tomorrow is goin... (Below threshold)

Looks like tomorrow is going to be a bad day for the Palin/McCain ticket. Check out the main page at CNN.com tonight.

"Pentecostal" will be the new slang word for "far right religious nut job".

Well it was fun while it lasted, easy come easy go.

I'm down for debunking them... (Below threshold)
jp2:

I'm down for debunking them as well, as long as the real lies get called out:

-Bridge to Nowhere lie
-Anti-earmark lie

and others get explored

-like her attending and addresing secessionist conventions

-her marriage to a secessionist

I'm sure Charlie Gibson will get right to the bottom of it now that she is done cowering and getting her story straight.


And again, I commend your dedication to a woman you never heard of 3 weeks ago. Soldier on!

jp2,What we are wi... (Below threshold)
live:

jp2,

What we are witnessing tonight and will continue to pick up steam tomorrow thoughout the old and new media is the Palin/McCain ticket collapse under the weight of there own proven lies.

Time to sit back a pop a bag of popcorn, this one is going to be fun to watch.

Blaming the media for your political woes may fire up the base (witness wizbang the past few days), but payback is a bitch.

[email protected],cnn? You're... (Below threshold)

[email protected],

cnn? You're hawking cn-flipping-n!?! Let's see, on the credibilty scale, I think it goes: ny times, larry odonnell, cnn. From the bottom up! They would have to work years to reach the heights of used car salesmen after being shown for the al kkkeda propaganda wing of the drive bys that they are. America hates cnn, and we're no fonder of crap bags like you, for lying about real American: Sarah Palin

So go find a ditch and pull a dirt blanky over yerself. The time of whiny, sniveling little bedwetters like yerself dominating information disemination in America is over. Can't you see that the baseless lies are only winning MORE voters to her side?

Don't feel bad, you and bill mahrs can go get an extra large box of Depends ® after crying in yer beer once it becomes disturbingly undeniable that your time is done. p.s. Can you remember the last time you felt real joy? (not the kind that comes at someone elses expense, but the kind conservatives are feeling right now) No? Didn't think so.

Time to sit back a... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:
Time to sit back a pop a bag of popcorn, this one is going to be fun to watch.

Oh, it already IS fun, my little, anxious lefty... I've downed buckets of popcorn just watching as every desperate smear about Palin is quashed and results in higher polling numbers for McCain/Palin.

Man, I'm full... anybody have any dental floss?

Mark,Project much?<b... (Below threshold)

Mark,
Project much?
Looks like I hit a raw nerve, the closer to the truth the more it hurts.

I'm not talking about the lies that other people write about them, I'm only concerned with lies that come out of their mouths!

Bridge to now where, give me a break. America is bursting out in laughter every time we here that one.

I'm not talking about th... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

I'm not talking about the lies that other people write about them, I'm only concerned with lies that come out of their mouths!

∅bama supported that bridge even over Katrina relief.

Palin still killed the bridge.

"What we are witnessing... (Below threshold)
marc:

"What we are witnessing tonight and will continue to pick up steam tomorrow thoughout the old and new media is the Palin/McCain ticket collapse under the weight of there own proven lies."

You're quick to make that assertion, but are not so quick, or slow for that matter, to offer what they may be.

Why is that, surely being so sure they are so horrid they will send the campaign topsy-turvy you have a ready list.

jp2 - "And again, I com... (Below threshold)
marc:

jp2 - "And again, I commend your dedication to a woman you never heard of 3 weeks ago. Soldier on!"

Are you sure that's true? Maybe you missed it, but everyday, or even occasional, readers of Wizbang knew of Palin back in May, at minimum, reading about her on this very blog and how she might make a good candidate for VP.

cnn? You're hawking cn-f... (Below threshold)
Brian:

cnn? You're hawking cn-flipping-n!?!

Drop the ad hominem attacks and debunk it if you can.

She belonged to the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska. But though she attended the church from her teenage years through to 2002

Not true? Come on, you can say it.

The McCain campaign says the Governor doesn't consider herself Pentecostal.

Oh, well we all know how much credibility McCain has on religion.

Mark,Project muc... (Below threshold)
Mark, Project much?

Please sir, just because you've been in therapy for years, does not qualify you to nalalyze me. I may have been wrong about you, but it seems a very reasonable guess to think that someone who spews flights of fantasy in the face of undeniable truth, would very likely be a bed wetting, drunken, soulmate of bill mahrses'. If you're actually only a bedwetting drunkard, it makes little difference to me. You're still a self hating, joyless little prig. Anyway, at least you've got that going for you.

Ducharme - "I may have ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Ducharme - "I may have been wrong about you, but it seems a very reasonable guess to think that someone who spews flights of fantasy in the face of undeniable truth, would very likely be a bed wetting, drunken, soulmate of bill mahrses'."

It's also a reasonable guess you do more harm to good to the Rep ticket.

Unless you're a tone deaf buffoon very much in the mold of some of the MSM hacks.

Brian - "Not true? Come... (Below threshold)
marc:

Brian - "Not true? Come on, you can say it."

So what does that mean? That you agree that Obama's association with his extremest church should be held against him?

Or are you being inconsistent?

She belonged to t... (Below threshold)
She belonged to the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown of Wasilla, Alaska. But though she attended the church from her teenage years through to 2002

OH MY GOD! AMERICA MIGHT HAVE A CHRISTIAN IN THE WHITEHOUSE!!! HORRORS!

Man, you guys are #1, class-A, USDA Choice boobs. I am a Christian. I like guns. And hey, check this out: I love America too!! (what Brian and co. just "read") "ZEKE HEIL, ZEKE HEIL, ZEKE HEIL!!!! Into za oven schwinehunt! SCHNELL, SCHELL!! Before za coals cool down!"

Man, you guys are just sorry!

I can see I am about to be ... (Below threshold)

I can see I am about to be seleted again so, let me just say something: It is rediculess to give a straight answer to those offering up pure folly. The lefties on this site come here for one reason, and one reason only: to agitate

I choose to amuse myself as opposed to acting like they have a credible argument. If taking them seriously works for you, that's fine. Most of you folks are much smarter than me but, I can tell you one thing, just as I said at the top of these comments, I am in the process of forwarding the truth around this here country. That truth is already spreading faster than the drive bys can spread their lies and it will result in such a fervor, the likes of which has not been seen since Ronald Reagan, that these blowhards will soon be....oops, sorry. Was about to make a naughty comment there. That is why the -insert (offensive to you) epithet here- are so tangled up in spreading their lies on this otherwise sain site. That annoys me. Laughing at them amuses me. Taking them seriously, however brilliant the argument may be, bores me.

Like I said, I'm sorry, you're smart, I'll shut up. Gotta sleep sometime you know. Will be back with more, unqualified to speak, garbage later.

Geesh... thjese idiots get ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Geesh... thjese idiots get more idiotic with each passing day.

Now it's a sin, or despicable or... something to be a Hockey Mom. At least it is if your name is Palin. In that case you're a part of what is called a "frosty she-clan."

"It is rediculess to gi... (Below threshold)
marc:

"It is rediculess to give a straight answer to those offering up pure folly. The lefties on this site come here for one reason, and one reason only: to agitate"

And you haven't agitated?

P.S. what's "rediculess?"

rediculess - verb) to gave ... (Below threshold)

rediculess - verb) to gave onesself a pozitive vote four evree poste poasted

...or was that pompous? Hmm...

It truly amazes me to no en... (Below threshold)

It truly amazes me to no end how afraid some people are of Christians and Christianity.

Here we have some Obama sycophants, here to bash on Palin for her religious beliefs. Palin, who has already stated she does not wish to mix politics and religion, or push an agenda based on religion, yet there are all these people running around peeing their pants because she is a devout Christian.

Weren't these pretty much the same folks that were defending Obama, saying he's a Christian and not a Muslim, that his church and his beliefs were not matters for discussion or debate? Why do Obama and his worshippers, er ... supporters not want to talk about Rev. Wright? The man was clearly a very important part of Obama's life. He was Obama's spiritual mentor. He performed the Obama's wedding ceremony and baptized their daughters. "The Audacity of Hope" is a line directly from a Wright sermon. Wright was a top-level advisor to Obama in his campaigns. Obama sat in a pew in Wright's church for 20 years listening to Wright's preaching, and only when Wright became a political liability did he think to distance himself from him, not because he disagreed with Wright's racist rants, but because the association threatened his campaign. Why can't we talk about that?

Yeah, I thought so. Of course, according Palin the same courtesy would be unheard of.

The fact of the matter is, Palin left the Pentecostal church years ago. She now attends Wasilla Bible Church, "a "staid" worship environment that "steer[s] clear of politics" and whose main attraction is Biblical preaching" ... that was found out by two reporters sent to dig up "juicy" information on Palin's religious views. Failing that, their article turned to focus on the Assemblies of God church that she left.

This scrambling, frantic, panic among the lefties as they desperately try to dig up something, anything to smear Palin with would be comical, if it weren't so pathetic.

I don't get it.She... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

I don't get it.

She killed the bridge to no where, how is that a lie? Anti-earmark lie? Obama is very much pro-earmark, so where is the lie here exactly?

If you want to point out a lie, it does some good to be specific about what exactly you are claiming is a lie. Being vague doesn't quite do the trick.

Hey Kevin, you're own websi... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

Hey Kevin, you're own website is getting in on the action.

You should check out Wizbangblue. They'll repeat just about anything negative they hear about Sarah Palin and pretend like its real.

She was never a me... (Below threshold)
Dave:
She was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a group that wants Alaskans to vote on whether they wish to secede from the United States. She's been registered as a Republican since May 1982.

She may not have been a member but she definitely has ties to them. Heres a video of her giving a speach at an Alaskan Independence Party convention just 6 month ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwvPNXYrIyI

Her husband was a member from 1995 to 2002.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04party.html?ref=politics

If Obama gave the speech and his wife was a member we would be reading more articles on Wizbang questioning their patriotism.

Looks like tomorro... (Below threshold)
Dave:
Looks like tomorrow is going to be a bad day for the Palin/McCain ticket. Check out the main page at CNN.com tonight.

"Pentecostal" will be the new slang word for "far right religious nut job".

Well it was fun while it lasted, easy come easy go.

Sorry [email protected] there will not be an uproar due to the double standard. If it were Obama then the media would be playing videos 24-7.


Did someone hire Dave as co... (Below threshold)
jpm100:

Did someone hire Dave as comic relief?

BrianWasilla... (Below threshold)

Brian

Wasilla Assembly of God

What's the problem with that church? Come on, be specific and tell us why it is news?

ducharme - "rediculess ... (Below threshold)
marc:

ducharme - "rediculess - verb) to gave onesself a pozitive vote four evree poste poasted"

And you know this how?

Asshat.

Dave - the video you posted... (Below threshold)
marc:

Dave - the video you posted, you really what that as exhibit "A" as proof she wants or agrees with their message?

If you do, jpm100 has it about correct, you're here to provide a bit, a very little bit, of comedic relief.

P.S. where was the speech? Or more to the point how many of the Alaskan AIP did she fit into her small Gov office.

Or in other words, you give "buffoonage" an entire new level of meaning.

I hope Obama's people put o... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I hope Obama's people put out Palin's church. Hope, hope, hope. It will change, change, change everything...for the better. ww

Do the Brocko Bots really w... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Do the Brocko Bots really want to dig into Palin's church?
I've never seen the MSM really dig into and fully explore Brocko's 20+ year association with the racist whackjob Trinity UCC church he and his family belonged to, and received mentoring from.

Attacking Palin's church af... (Below threshold)
hermie:

Attacking Palin's church affiliations once again demonstrates the Media double standard.

It'll end up just hurting their Obamamessiah, since this obvious bias will put more attention on Obama's 20 year support of a racist church.

Dave - the video y... (Below threshold)
Dave:
Dave - the video you posted, you really what that as exhibit "A" as proof she wants or agrees with their message?

If you do, jpm100 has it about correct, you're here to provide a bit, a very little bit, of comedic relief.

P.S. where was the speech? Or more to the point how many of the Alaskan AIP did she fit into her small Gov office.

Or in other words, you give "buffoonage" an -entire new level of meaning.

Marc,

Do you even know what the AIP stands for? Their stated goal on their web site is to be able to have a vote on whether Alaska should remain a state. How un-patriotic is that?

Palin should not have anything to do with them, let alone create videos for their convention praising the AIP and telling them to "Keep up the good work."

Obama still supports the br... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Obama still supports the bridge to nowhere as seen in the link from post #8. The McCain campaign pointed out that it was an Alaska Democratic web site that credited Palin with killing the bridge to nowhere. As for earmarks, Palin agrees with Obama and the majority of Senators. McCain knew this before he picked Palin. Who's so stupid as to think Obama and Biden agree on everything? Certainly Biden didn't agree that Obama was qualified to be President and said so. Seems like he flip flopped on that.

It'd be nice, wouldn't it i... (Below threshold)
JFO:

It'd be nice, wouldn't it if both sides stopped the nonsense and started talking about fixing what's wrong with America. I can't wait for the debates, at least then we can hope to be able to judge all the candidates on their stand on the issues.

As most of you know I'm a liberal. I don't care if Sarah Palin belonged to the Church of What's Happening Now, worships the planet of mars or is a devout Christian, atheist or agnostic - or even a closet muslim. I care about where she stands for fixing the problems in America.

Palin should not h... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Palin should not have anything to do with them, let alone create videos for their convention praising the AIP and telling them to "Keep up the good work."

Thanks for the link, Dave. Looking at the vidio, Palin never endorsed any specific Independence party platform apart from upholding the Alaskan Constitution. Palin thinks competition is good and she's being diplomatic and bipartisan. Obama is willing to talk to Iran, but you think Palin shouldn't talk to American citizens.

So far every attack the left has mounted against Palin can easily be turned against Obama. Even the Obama campaign is trying to get the focus off Palin because they know that it's destroying Obama's image and sucking up all the political air. Unfortunately, Obama can't convince the hard left to stop their self-destructive attacks.

It'd be nice, woul... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
It'd be nice, wouldn't it if both sides stopped the nonsense and started talking about fixing what's wrong with America.

Very rational and something I agree with you on.

Obama is willing t... (Below threshold)
Dave:
Obama is willing to talk to Iran, but you think Palin shouldn't talk to American citizens.

Mac Lorry,

Obama wants to talk to Iran to get them to stop development of nuclear weapons.

Palin made no attempt to talk to the AIP to stop trying to secede from the United States.

Theres nothing wrong with talking to the AIP or Iran. It's what you actually say that matters. Do you understand now?

The left just doesn't get i... (Below threshold)
Clay:

The left just doesn't get it. The more they come out slinging mud, the more they get it in their faces. They bring up The Bridge to Nowhere and then discover that Obama & Biden voted for it while Palin killed it. They bring up Palin's affiliation with -gasp- a mainstream Christian denomination and America remembers that Obama received a relative pass regarding his affiliation with a radical, black liberation church.

Keep it up, is all I've got to say. Keep slinging that mud while making America sick to death of you. Meanwhile, McCain has a 15-point lead amongst Independents. Any wonder?

Children, children...

Dave,Don't read th... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

Dave,

Don't read the Bible much? Jesus said, "Get thee behind me Satan". He didn't say, let's sit down, drink some of this water that's turned to wine, and let me show you where you're wrong.

Understand dude? Why is it that EVERY single post you have posted here that I've seen is IDIOTIC? Why is EVERY SINGLE ONE SO IDIOTIC, dude???

BrianWasilla ... (Below threshold)
rodney dill:
Brian

Wasilla Assembly of God

What's the problem with that church? Come on, be specific and tell us why it is news?


...'cause if there's one thing the angry left knows how to do, its attack and divide christians.
Even the Obama campaign ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Even the Obama campaign is trying to get the focus off Palin because they know that it's destroying Obama's image and sucking up all the political air.

Who could have imagined that the MSM and Kos could become McCain's best friends?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at Obama Central. "Hello? Hello? Will you guys puhleez just shut up already?" Unfortunately, coaxing the genie back into the bottle is never easy.

There have been some... (Below threshold)
Larry:


There have been some quite calls from Obama's campaign to the more prominent left leaning pundits to lighten up a bit. Far from being a negative for the Republicans, Sarah Palin has energized the base and swayed independents. It should be noted that, as always, the independents decide the election in key states, which means the Presidency. The realists in Obama's camp see Palin as a threat and that the threat will enjoy even more reality if they continue to trash her with bogus accusations easily debunked like the library thing.

[email protected], jfo and others have the courage to come on here and state their logic, such as it is. I commend them. Most Liberals in the blog universe hunker down amongst their own kind and bubblehead each other into thinking that they represent the winning team because the other side is evil. I note that Jay has the courage to allow those who don't agree with him to post their views. Good for Jay.

The contrast is useful.

Unfortunately, we have a few on the McCain side who think Obamanuts are not in command of their mental facilities. Maybe some of them are a bit whacko, but so are some of those who back McCain. For example, my son comes home from school and says he is against Obama because he is Muslim. I corrected him, as a parent should.

My personal view is that Obama may be a Christian, but I think he goes to the Church of Obama more than anything else.

This country has been center right for a very long time. It continues to be. Yet an inept Republican Congress starting when Newt left and the likes of pit bull Tom DeLay took over, an unpopular and initially mismanaged war in Iraq coupled with a tendency of Bush to lose focus, has resulted in a large number of Americans who want things changed. And rightly so.

The example set by Pelosi and Reid is NOT what the public is looking for. And McCain is perfectly positioned to take advantage of that if we can debunk the real killers; emphasize the difference between McCain and Bush instead of allowing the 90% same claim to go unchallenged.

The truth on the bridge to nowhere is that Palin was for federal funding. Failing that, she dropped it like a hot brick. The fact is that if local governments reject federal funding, not just earmarks, they don't get much done. The US Congress has gradually taken more and more power from the States on a host of things, like education, infrastructure, even local law enforcement, to the point where if a local official rejects the funds, the local folks have a very, very hard time balancing the budget.

We do need change. And Obama's past ties with the nasty Chicago political machine, Emil Jones and a host of other characters scare me. Obama doesn't stand for the level and type of change we need, in my opinion. Palin's past doesn't scare me and with one exception, neither does McCain's. I emailed John McCain's campaign any number of times over the past six weeks begging him to consider Palin instead of yet another tired old boy politician like Obama selected.

Sarah Palin did what a local, elected official should do; if the feds want to send money, take it. Wasilla and the State of Alaska is on a path of growth fueled by the oil business. Funding the need for infrastructure growth is a very large challenge under that circumstance, just ask any suburban city manager with a growth pattern over the past forty years.

McCain is against earmarks, which is as it should be. Saying Palin, as a local official, was willing to take money the feds sent but would have preferred unrestricted funds, rings true to the UNDECIDED voters who will decide the election. It rings true because it is.

Saying Obama is a Muslim doesn't ring true, but saying he is whatever he is, but mostly a card carrying member of the Church of Obama does ring true with those who saw the Greek temple.

I care about where she s... (Below threshold)
Clay:

I care about where she stands for fixing the problems in America.

At this point, it's looking like Obama's only prayer is for more liberals to adopt your stance. Except that the left is so angry, it probably won't happen.

It just gets easier and easier for McCain/Palin. Typical liberals, snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. I mean, you guys thought you had it in the bag, huh?

Palin was a brilliant choice. Everything that is brought up against her places a mirror right in front of Obama's face. But, the mystery is that the left keeps going there.

Larry,Well said, b... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

Larry,

Well said, but I must say that Obama does have muslim sympathies, while his support of Israel is verbal only (Palin has a flag of Israel in her office -- and this was from before she ever was nominated for VP).

Conservatives, don't get scared into saying Obama is a Christian because he went to Jeremiah Wright's church (which is in name Christian, but is far from). Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jim Wallis, Brian McLaren are in name Christian, but FAR FAR from.

card carrying member of ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

card carrying member of the Church of Obama does ring true with those who saw the Greek temple.

And to bring this full circle, let me say that the focus of every liberal's anger should not be Palin. Your anger should be placed squarely at the MSM who foisted upon you a Democrat candidate that was not vetted by the media. If Obama had received a fraction of the attention by the media in 19 months that Palin has received in 9 days, you'd have a stronger, maybe even a different, candidate. Frankly, in terms of viability, Hillary scared me infinitely more than Obama.

But, you are left with an arrogant media who decided which candidate was best. Clinton was pilloried by the press, while Obama scored a pass. The change that needs to take place in America? The media needs to go back to their roots of reporting, not distorting, facts. We should all demand it. All Americans. Because we are all paying for their arrogance.

If I were a liberal, I'd be mad as hell. As a conservative, I already am.

ClayLet me just sa... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Clay

Let me just say that it's a fantasy of yours and some others that "liberals" are "angry". Disgusted? Yes. Disappointed? Yes. Let down? Yes. Frustrated? Yes. And all of it caused by theory decisions and management of the current president. If you think Obama hasn't been vetted over the past 18 months both by the press and conservative bloggers and media, I'll just say that you're wrong.

It's also pretty evident that Palin wasn't thoroughly vetted by McCain and that his decision making process was not very solid. That's a legitimate issue to look at in evaluating any candidate. Palin is a relative unknown, pretty much a surprise choice and chosen immediately prior to the convention. Of course she's going to subjected to intense media scrutiny. For God's sake she could, in theory, be the leader of the free world soon if, god forbid, something should happen to McCain.

Should I be angry at the media? No. Am I disgusted at times by all of the media? Yes. If we didn't live in the country we do we would have no choice about the media. I don't always like what we have but I'll take it over the alternatives.

Theres nothing wro... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Theres nothing wrong with talking to the AIP or Iran. It's what you actually say that matters. Do you understand now?

So what's your point, Dave? Do you think bipartisan means bringing up disagreements or does it mean finding common ground? Palin talked about common ground as in upholding the Alaskan Constitution. That doesn't mean she supports their session from the Union. Do you think Obama is going sit down with the Iranians and point out all the differences or is he going to try to find common ground? Does Obama's willingness to talk with Iran mean he supports Iran's goal to destroy Israel?

You know that you and your ilk are doing far more damage to Obama than McCain's campain. Do you understand now?

If you think Obam... (Below threshold)
If you think Obama hasn't been vetted over the past 18 months both by the press and conservative bloggers and media, I'll just say that you're wrong.

Good one. JFO the satirist everyone! He'll be here all week...and into eternity, apparently.
God halp us.

A lot of the left is trying... (Below threshold)

A lot of the left is trying very hard to project their unconditional affection for Obama onto the right's support of Palin. They're trying to portray us as Palin's mindless cheerleaders when really we're cheering the ideas she represents along with the fact that she actually done some of these things. She's the first person in a long time that has actually caught national attention saying what we've been trying to say and backing it up with a record.

We've had Democrats and Republicans alike talking about reform, openness and bi-partisanship for so long we're talk-weary.

That she's made mistakes is true. Find me someone who hasn't. That she's acted to correct them is even more important.

And now, we have wizblue trying to push the "Todd Palin shadow government meme," which shows me that Bill and Hillary's pillow talk was okay with them, even to the point that Bill gave her the job of changing the entire structure one of the most important issues in this country, health-care. But Palin allowing her husband to read some emails is indicative that he's running the show. Even though they have no idea of the contents of the emails. Why, I'd almost say that bordered on sexist. She's not smart enough - it HAS to be Todd!

If you think Obama hasn'... (Below threshold)
Clay:

If you think Obama hasn't been vetted over the past 18 months both by the press and conservative bloggers and media

I'm fine with you thinking that. That makes it easy. I'll just say that it's you who resides in fantasy.

The current flailing of the press is nothing short of panic. At the moment, they're more concerned about their own skin than Obama's. Their subscriber's are continuing their exodus. The media's hope was that this election would secure their credibility, but it hasn't turned out so. The problem for Obama is that the MSM can't shut up. They have much more at stake than the Democrat candidate. If the election goes to McCain then Obama will still have his career, but the MSM, as conductors of this symphony turned cacophony, will be finished.

Maybe you're not angry. But, you sure do appear so.

To say that liberals are no... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

To say that liberals are not angry is the height of hypocrisy.

"Palin put her downs syndrome baby on ebay" said one prominent lefty author.

"Palin's baby is really Bristol's" said another.

What drives this kind of claims? Anger and hate. Nothing else.

"Hi, I'm Jimmy Carter and I am running for president," was the campaign of this unknown. The media loved the fact he was outside the beltway and not part of the system.

The liberal line (lie) that Palin was not vetted properly is insane. All the resources McCain and his staff have for background checks and you liberals think he just willi nilly picked her. Look at the polls and see who the mornons are. ww

'cause if there's one... (Below threshold)

'cause if there's one thing the angry left knows how to do, its attack and divide christians.

I don't think it will work with that denomination. In fact, it will backfire. Pentacostals will unite if they are attacked by the left and other evangelical denominations will come to their defense (particularly the growing charismatic segment of the Catholic Church)

As ww noted above, this is one attack I hope the left tries.

WillieThe polls sh... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Willie

The polls show it's a statistical dead heat.

Understand dude? W... (Below threshold)
Dave:
Understand dude? Why is it that EVERY single post you have posted here that I've seen is IDIOTIC? Why is EVERY SINGLE ONE SO IDIOTIC, dude???

Nehemiah,

To answer your question as to why all of my quotes seem idiotic to you:

If you tell an idiot something that makes sense they will not be able to understand it, therefore they will think it's idiotic.

[email protected], jp2, Dave, Brian, ... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

[email protected], jp2, Dave, Brian, JFO,

Allow me to put this in terms you might be able to comprehend.

Palin = rubber
Obama = glue

Whatever crap you fling at her bounces off her and sticks to Obama.

Just sayin'...

Dave,When asked a ... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

Dave,

When asked a question, try for the simplest, most direct and practical answer. For "why is everything you say idiotic?" -- the best one is, because it comes from one. For example, has anything Babs Streisand said not sound idiotic to you? Or is it that everyone who heard what she said is an idiot? See what's logical?

Don't read the Bib... (Below threshold)
Dave:
Don't read the Bible much? Jesus said, "Get thee behind me Satan". He didn't say, let's sit down, drink some of this water that's turned to wine, and let me show you where you're wrong.

Nehemiah, I really do not understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying what God said to Satan should apply to other nations such as Iran? If thats the case then you are saying God prefers war over diplomacy. Perhaps you need to read the bible more.

The polls show it's a st... (Below threshold)
Clay:

The polls show it's a statistical dead heat.

Uhm...okay. Stick with that. Bubblehead.

Dave,Did not expec... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

Dave,

Did not expect you to understand (and do not expect you will with the explanation here, but for the benefit of others, here goes).

There is no talking with evil. You don't negotiate with evil. They don't expect you to do so, either (except to use it as a delay tactic). Do you hear Ahmadinejad or muslim terrorists wanting to talk (did the 9/11 hijackers want to talk first before the terrorist act?). Evil does not want to talk to good, and good should not want to talk to evil.

So what does that mean? ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

So what does that mean? That you agree that Obama's association with his extremest church should be held against him?

If you want to hold it against him, that's your right. Just hold it against Palin also. At least Obama owned up to his membership, and didn't switch churches (or religions) when it became politically expedient to so so.

I'm glad that Palin doesn't... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

I'm glad that Palin doesn't support teaching Creationism in the classroom, and that asserting that she does is merely a vicious smear. Good that all four people atop the tickets have respect for science.

She killed the bridge to... (Below threshold)
Brian:

She killed the bridge to no where, how is that a lie?

Because when something is not true, we typically call that a "lie".

Palin did abandon plans to build the nearly $400 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport. But she made her decision after the project had become an embarrassment to the state, after federal dollars for the project were pulled back and diverted to other uses in Alaska, and after she had appeared to support the bridge during her campaign for governor.

...

"I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere," she said in her convention speech last week.

That's not what she told Alaskans when she announced a year ago that she was ordering state transportation officials to ditch the project. Her explanation then was that it would be fruitless to try to persuade Congress to come up with the money.

"It's clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island," Palin said then.

Anti-earmark lie?

Anti-earmark?!

The governor has cut back on pork-barrel project requests, but in her two years in office, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. And as mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million.

If you want to point out a lie, it does some good to be specific about what exactly you are claiming is a lie. Being vague doesn't quite do the trick.

And if you want to refute a truth, it does some good to be aware of the facts. Playing dumb doesn't quite do the trick.

What's the problem with ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

What's the problem with that church? Come on, be specific and tell us why it is news?

No problem. Just let her own up to it, like you insisted Obama owned up to his.

Palin's former pastor, Tim McGraw, says that like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues, although he says he's never seen Palin do so. ... Some Pentecostals from Assembly of God also believe in "faith healing" and the "end times". ... Speaking of the troops in Iraq, Palin says ... "...our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God...." ... In 2004, [the senior pastor] told church members if they voted for John Kerry for president, they wouldn't get into heaven. He told them, "I question your salvation."

The Assembly of God issued a statement online in response, which said Kalnin was "joking" when he suggested "Kerry supporters would go to hell."

If that kind of faith resonates with many Americans, it should be a big plus for her. She attended that church for about 20 years, but...

The McCain campaign says the governor doesn't consider herself Pentecostal.

No, she left in 2002... right when she started running for state government.

Palin = rubberOba... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Palin = rubber
Obama = glue

Sheik Yur Bouty = child

At least Obama owned up ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

At least Obama owned up to his membership, and didn't switch churches (or religions) when it became politically expedient to so so.

The two churches are not even close to the same vicinity. Palin's church is a mainstream denomination, founded in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas with 300 people at the founding convention. Today there are 12,311 churches in the U.S. with nearly 3 million members and adherents. There are nearly 58 million Assemblies of God members worldwide, making the Assemblies of God one of the world's largest denominations. They make no mention on their website of being singularly and "Unashamedly Black" or that "the highest level of achievement for any Black person must be a contribution of strength and continuity of the Black Community." No, they're concern is for all people of all colors. They're pastor isn't calling for God to damn America (or the U.S. of KKK, as he affectionately refers to it). Their message is one of unity in Christ, not division in race.

like many Pentecostal ch... (Below threshold)
Clay:

like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues,

-gasp- They do that? That's so un-American.

Their message is one of ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Their message is one of unity in Christ, not division in race.

if they voted for John Kerry for president, they wouldn't get into heaven. He told them, "I question your salvation."

..."Kerry supporters would go to hell."

Ohhh, "unity". Got it.

What's the deal with it bei... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

What's the deal with it being controversial to believe in the end times. That's the whole book of Revelation. It's controversial (libs think) to believe in the book of Revelation???

Maybe when they they watch the election returns on Nov. 4th, the left will believe in the end times as well.

I'm glad that Palin does... (Below threshold)
Clay:

I'm glad that Palin doesn't support teaching Creationism in the classroom, and that asserting that she does is merely a vicious smear.

Wow. It's almost like you think that the only beliefs that should be addressed in the classroom are your beliefs. But, that would be intolerant of you. And I thought you were pro-choice.

If evolution's such ironclad science (with the newly discovered fossil record, and all), then it should bear up under scrutiny. No worries in addressing both theories then. Creationism will just look so bad in comparison and the choice will be obvious. And the children will be able to make these stupid Christians look even dumber.

Nehemiah,How do yo... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Nehemiah,

How do you define evil?

How do you define evil?<... (Below threshold)
Clay:

How do you define evil?

Are you assuming that there is good?

Clay,There is good... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Clay,

There is good and evil in all men/women. Still waiting to hear how Nehemiah defines evil.

[email protected] (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

[email protected]

jp2,

What we are witnessing tonight and will continue to pick up steam tomorrow thoughout the old and new media is the Palin/McCain ticket collapse under the weight of there own proven lies.

Time to sit back a pop a bag of popcorn, this one is going to be fun to watch.

Blaming the media for your political woes may fire up the base (witness wizbang the past few days), but payback is a bitch.

Translated, says "What I am witnessing here is my own attempt at sounding like I know what I am talking about. With no real sources to back up my waste of bandwidth, I bloviate on hoping no one will notice that I have no clue about politics and how the mainstream media works. I think I will get a bag of popcorn and console myself with my collection of Cosmopolitan magazines."

There is good and evil i... (Below threshold)
Clay:

There is good and evil in all men/women.

Based on what?

Clay, you know the differen... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Clay, you know the difference between testable hypotheses and a strong desire for the existence of unicorns and omnipotent deities to be real. Verifiability matters.

jp2 says,... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

jp2 says,

And again, I commend your dedication to a woman you never heard of 3 weeks ago. Soldier on!

Translated, "I have to comment in a way that makes me sound like I am a super sleuth. If I don't, then I'll have to admit that I have nothing of real substance to say, which is something the authors at Wizbang have known for years. Carry on in showing this half-wit a thing or two."

Verifiability matters.</... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Verifiability matters.

Sure it does. How big is your leap of faith? Here's a formula:
impersonal+time=personal

impersonal(plus)time(equals... (Below threshold)
Clay:

impersonal(plus)time(equals)personal

Dave,I'll give you... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

Dave,

I'll give you a bonus answer as well -- I'll define good for you as well.

Evil: Anything that is not pleasing to God.

Good: What God says is good (i.e. what is pleasing to God).

Now to figure out what is evil and what is good, you would have to read and study the Bible with a genuine desire to know the truth. You may see the truth before you read the whole thing (if you genuinely desire to understand). But in all your life, what I'm saying right now may be the most important humanly advice you may ever get. I recommend that you start with the gospel of Luke.

Evil: Anything that is n... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Evil: Anything that is not pleasing to God.
Good: What God says is good (i.e. what is pleasing to God).

But, what if he doesn't accept God's existence? It isn't fair for you to impose such a belief. Perhaps, he has a moral definition apart from a deity. If so, I'd like to hear it.

dave - "Palin should no... (Below threshold)
marc:

dave - "Palin should not have anything to do with them, let alone create videos for their convention praising the AIP and telling them to "Keep up the good work.""

First of all nitwit, I'm well aware of what AIP is and wants. Secondly YOU are under some delusional and demented thought process that makes you adhere to the belief that video was made by Palin as some sort of endorsement of their goals.

You haven't proven jackshit othewr than being a partisan hack.

Furthmore, if you're so concerned with that states AIP are you just as concerned about the Second Vermont Republic

Finally, you're a USDA Choice Grade A-Hole and will remain that way until you provide a real video. You know one where you can show Palin fully endorses the AIP goals and aspirations.

Until then, bugger off.

There is no talkin... (Below threshold)
Dave:
There is no talking with evil. You don't negotiate with evil. They don't expect you to do so, either (except to use it as a delay tactic). Do you hear Ahmadinejad or muslim terrorists wanting to talk (did the 9/11 hijackers want to talk first before the terrorist act?). Evil does not want to talk to good, and good should not want to talk to evil.
Dave,

I'll give you a bonus answer as well -- I'll define good for you as well.

Evil: Anything that is not pleasing to God.

Good: What God says is good (i.e. what is pleasing to God).

Nehemiah,


Two more questions

1. Should we then cut off all diplomatic relations with India. Their are many instances in the Bible where God expresses his displeasure with non-beleivers. Therefore that makes them evil.

2. What about native Americans. Was it OK to slaughter them because they to are non-beleivers and therefore are evil.


Clay, yo... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:


Clay, you know the difference between testable hypotheses and a strong desire for the existence of unicorns and omnipotent deities to be real. Verifiability matters.

It's not testable that makes something science, it's falsifiable that makes it science. Darwin explained how his theory could be shown to be false, which is irreducible complexity. However, when irreducible complexity is injected into the discussion it's labeled as religion. Therefore, there's no scientific means of falsifying evolution, which means evolution is not science but a religion itself.

Here's another way to get the same conclusion. It goes back to the question "is the universe intelligent"? Religion answers yes and science answers no, but neither answer can be ascertained by experiment nor by evidence. Thus, both religion and science are founded on faith. Religious people know that, but many who embrace science find it difficult to accept.

Thus, both religion and ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Thus, both religion and science are founded on faith.

Science is founded on observable evidence. You can argue "faith in observable evidence" (i.e., that God is not messing with us by affecting the outcomes of experiments), but that's different from pure faith.

Dave,You didn't he... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

Dave,

You didn't heed my advice about reading the Bible with a desire for truth.

There is a type of unbelief that is evil, and a type that is not. Let me explain:

1) (Unbelief that is not evil): Someone who does not know God and is open to hearing and being persuaded.

2) (The other): Unbelief that originates from a heart that has decided that God and His words and actions are wrong, and has set (the unbeliever) his heart to working against God (pride).

Your question: Should we cut diplomatic relations with India? No. They have not planned or acted to harm us. Maybe you'll become a Christian and go there as a missionary instead.

Native Americans: I have lived in New Mexico, and have worked near Farmington and Grants, where there are reservations nearby. This is where a Christian approach vs. a liberal govt policy approach will show a difference. Many problems with alcohol, obesity, etc. from govt handouts that discourage motivation to work -- liberal solution that has not worked well. Vs. my church there that had a pastor of Navajo origin on staff who was given leadership and responsibility that he merited -- just like anyone. And we loved him.

nehemiah: sincerely refusin... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

nehemiah: sincerely refusing to believe something due to a lack of empirical evidence can never be considered evil. You're misusing the word.

Mac/Brian: that's a discussion I really do enjoy.

Mac, the question of whether or not the universe is intelligent is not a scientific one but a philosophical one. Teleology is not natural science, though one can find traces of it in the language of evolutionary biology/psychology.

The question of whether or not there is a divine being affecting our lives in some way is also not a scientific one. "Is there something that exists beyond our understanding and faculties of observation?" That question, from a scientific standpoint, is meaningless.

hyperbolist,There ... (Below threshold)
nehemiah:

hyperbolist,

There is plenty of evidence. If you read the Old Testament, the Israelites were fed manna, saw the parting of the Red Sea and still refused to believe. It is never due to lack of evidence, but always pride.

Interesting how a discussio... (Below threshold)
Son Of The Godfather:

Interesting how a discussion about defending Sarah Palin against the liberal smear machine turns into a discussion of good vs. evil.

If you have to ask what "good" is and what "evil" is, and you're over 8 years old, there ain't much hope for you.

Science is founded... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Science is founded on observable evidence. You can argue "faith in observable evidence" (i.e., that God is not messing with us by affecting the outcomes of experiments), but that's different from pure faith.

The most fundamental tenet of evolution is that the universe is not intelligent. That tenet cannot be proven, and thus, can only be accepted on faith or perhaps in ignorance for those who have never thought about it. Faith is faith; it doesn't come in pure and unpure forms. Abstract concepts like mathematics can be proven, but we were talking about religion vs. evolution.

All the observations can be explained by religion as well as by science. Science rejects religion as not being scientific, yet reason embraces both science and religion. It's reason that demonstrates the science of evolution is founded on faith even as science, in it's myopic view, rejects the idea.

JFOI fully ... (Below threshold)
Larry:


JFO

I fully recognise where your vote is going to Obama for whatever reason you consider good and sufficient. And I applaud your courage in posting to a clearly Republican mindset.

Which means to me that you can take it as well as dish it out. Ok, here are some things for you to ponder:

"If you think Obama hasn't been vetted over the past 18 months both by the press and conservative bloggers and media, I'll just say that you're wrong."

Yes, Obama has been vetted by the public. There has even been a couple of books out that clearly describe who he is and what he stands for. Problem is that the facts have never hit the bubblehead blogs or even MSM to any appreciable degree. It is like yesterday when I was reading a blog by someone called carly g. She and the rest of her gang were all over something or the other with no voice of disagreement tolerated. That Obama might have a few bones in his closet is not part of their mindset or willingness to consider.

Let me give you an example of a bone:

Michelle Obama was promoted and her pay doubled shortly after Obama was elected to the Senate. The Hospital where she works has received federal money. She was the person in charge of dumping the indigent on other facilities and she was abetted by David Axelrod, who was under paid contract as the PR guy. How much of that have you seen in MSM?

Much of TUCC theology comes from someone by the name of Cone. Look him up on google. The guy is scary. AND Obama clearly states that he signed off on the basic theology of the church less Wright's more hysterical moments. Cone's influence on the basic teaching of TUCC has never made it to mainstream media and only a few blogs have picked it up.

I could go on and on and on about the nasty and corrupt Chicago machine and Emil Jones and Stoddard, but I don't think you want to hear it.

"It's also pretty evident that Palin wasn't thoroughly vetted by McCain and that his decision making process was not very solid. That's a legitimate issue to look at in evaluating any candidate. Palin is a relative unknown, pretty much a surprise choice and chosen immediately prior to the convention. Of course she's going to subjected to intense media scrutiny. For God's sake she could, in theory, be the leader of the free world soon if, god forbid, something should happen to McCain."

She was very well vetted by Culahouse or however you spell his name. I put his web site here for those who would go look. The guy has a life long reputation for being thorough. One look at his picture and you can see the green eyeshade and sleeve protectors.

One thing that those who make the claims you state don't realize is that you can find just about anything you want on the Internet. For example, you can get all, and I mean ALL of Wasilla's budgets and audits online. And from audits and budgets, you can tell one heckofa lot about how someone has managed their jobs.

Yes, there were a few people who were not contacted. Virtually ALL of them had previously made their perception of Palin very clear in newspaper interviews over the years.

McCain had her on the short list for months.

Be careful of using liberal blogs as a credible source for your opinions. There is a ton of hysteria out there and many, many lies, fabrications, distortions and slander.

Larry

Mac, the question ... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Mac, the question of whether or not the universe is intelligent is not a scientific one but a philosophical one.

Not so. Evolutionists have raised and attempted to answer this question, but only within their circular logic.

The question of whether or not there is a divine being affecting our lives in some way is also not a scientific one.

You already made that erroneous statement.

"Is there something that exists beyond our understanding and faculties of observation?" That question, from a scientific standpoint, is meaningless.

But it's not beyond our understanding to know the limitations of scientific inquiry, nor is it meaningless even from a scientific point of view. Not all facts are scientific, nevertheless they are facts. Most historical events are outside the realm of scientific inquiry, that is, there's no evidence that something happened or was said other then the account of witnesses. Courts issue findings of fact everyday under such conditions. Science is but a small subset of the larger domain of logic and reason. It's from that larger domain that one sees that the science of evolution is itself based on a fundamental tenet of faith.

I understand some find it hard to accept that what they think they know is fundamentally based on a tenet of faith, a tenet that may not be correct.

Mac Lory,Study the... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Mac Lory,

Study the following chart. It explains the difference between science and religion.

Difference between science and religion

I am not anti-religion. Jus... (Below threshold)
Dave:

I am not anti-religion. Just beleive it should not be taught in a classroom or passed off as science.

Study the followin... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Study the following chart. It explains the difference between science and religion.

I hope you intended your chart as a joke because that's all it is. If you would like to engage in a logical discussion tell us your answer to the question "is the universe intelligent?" Then show us your great powers of reason in explaining your answer.

I am not anti-reli... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
I am not anti-religion. Just beleive it should not be taught in a classroom or passed off as science.

Nor should evolution be passed off as science, at least not without explaining the "logical" limitation it's founded on.

Then, Mac, it's also an art... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Then, Mac, it's also an article of faith that when you wake up tomorrow, Pluto will still be an asteroid (or whatever it is) and not a giant chunk of space-cheese.

'Faith' is a word with some elasticity, but the degree to which I am required to take a leap of faith to get on board with empirical science is far smaller than the degree to which you must extend your faith to believe that there is some overriding purpose to the universe; and that an intelligent entity is responsible for some or all of it.

hyperbolist,Sorry,... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

hyperbolist,

Sorry, but unless you can demonstrate with empirical data or with reason that one answer to the question "is the universe intelligent?" is correct then what you think you know is ultimately based to the same degree on faith as people who pick the other answer.

So far all you have offered to support your answer to that question are jokes about space-cheese and such. At some point you may come to realize that the joke has been on you the first time someone presented evolution as fact without telling you, or knowing themselves, that it rests on a tenet of faith. Let's not play that joke on kids anymore, lets give them all the fact and let them decide what to believe. Many scientists are also Christians; they can be both because they understand the limitations of science and have accepted the witness of good men as to what they saw and heard.

What happened to us human b... (Below threshold)

What happened to us human beings living in western culture ? We used to hold certain "truths to be self evident". Now, conjecture based on ones world view and monolithic hordes of government grant spending "scientists", self determine their own supersedence over the source of all knowledge, The Holy Bible.

People, we need to get back to where we came from. The Continental Congress did not intend for abortion to be a "right", nor did they confiscate everyones guns once hostilities ceased. Our "modern" culture is being dominated in many areas by ideas that would've been seen as insane by our founders.
And they would have been right.

Sorry. Just now getting bac... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Sorry. Just now getting back from a Dr.'s appointment in Vegas. I probably missed this discussion.

"is the universe intelligent?"

Or is the universe personal? Which is kind of where I was going with the impersonal(plus)time(equals)personal formula. You can mock religion and equate it to belief in unicorns or whatever, but a belief in evolution requires at least as big a leap in faith. Francis Schaeffer said that naturalism's biggest problem is that of man as a personal being.

He said that if one begins with an impersonal (or unintelligent) universe, there is no explanation of personality. The ultimate question for every man who lives, has lived, or will live is, "Who am I?" Because when I look at the I that is me and then look around to those men who face me, one thing is immediately obvious: Man has a personality (or mannishness as Schaeffer called it). You find it wherever man is found -- not only in the men who live today, but in historical artifacts. The assumption of an impersonal beginning cannot adequately explain the personal beings we see around us; and when men try to explain man on the basis of an original impersonal, man quickly disappears.

If man's beginning (and, ultimately, the universe's beginning) is impersonal, then no explanation can be given for the concepts of good or evil. Love and justice, then, are just sick jokes played upon us by the cosmos. There is no difference, then, between destroying and creating.

But, the fact is, something is there. And there is rational, and compelling evidence that God is that something. And one needn't check his intelligence at the door to know Him. One can know Him with heart, soul, and mind.

BTW...Mac, who do you read?... (Below threshold)
Clay:

BTW...Mac, who do you read? Like a friend of mine always says, "I gotta get me some of that."

Thanks for your reasoned discussion this evening. Good stuff.

Clay,On the intern... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Clay,

On the internet anyone can be anything they want to claim, so I make no claim to be anything. Well, not completely; over time I've revealed that I'm Christian, a military veteran, and male. Beyond that my only claim is the ideas I express. If they can't stand alone then propping them up with a Ph.D or other title would be a disservice to the ideas of others. For the same reason I make no claim as to what I read other than the Bible and links I may provide. What I have written in posts on this thread are original ideas, well as original as one person's ideas can be while floating on the sea of knowledge of our time.

With six billion plus people on the planet, and all those who have gone before, why do I (or anyone) see from one pair of eyes? What is the essence of a person that their conscience exists in but one body, and why that specific body? Great thinkers have pondered this question for millennia and have concluded that the essence of a person exists apart from their physical body. All major religions flow from this concept. That is, that there is a spiritual world apart from the physical world and that people have a spiritual essence, and it's that essence that makes them who they are.

Having answered no to the question "is the universe intelligent?", science must reject all things that derive from answering yes to that question. Science does this by saying it's not scientific, yet it's evident such statements depend on circular logic rather than reason. Science then concludes, as it must, that conscience is just an illusion. I then ask how does an illusion perceive an illusion?

If you would like ... (Below threshold)
Dave:
If you would like to engage in a logical discussion tell us your answer to the question "is the universe intelligent?" Then show us your great powers of reason in explaining your answer.

Mac Lory,

Thats too easy. The univers is not intelligent because there is no evidence to suggest it is.

Any more quetions.

Mac Lory,This is h... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Mac Lory,

This is how science works in devising theories.

In science when proposing a theory thats not testable, the theory must contain at least some supporting evidence. Otherwise the scientific community rejects it and it is not considered a valid theory.

Your theory about intelligent design is invalid because there is no supporting evidence.

Without supporting evidence it becomes a matter of faith as to whether one wants to beleive it.

Thats too easy. Th... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Thats too easy. The univers is not intelligent because there is no evidence to suggest it is.

If the universe is controlled by an intelligence that doesn't want you to know about itself, what experiment can you devise that such an intelligence can't confound?

Show us you brilliance, Dave. So far you're batting zero.

In science when pr... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
In science when proposing a theory thats not testable, the theory must contain at least some supporting evidence. Otherwise the scientific community rejects it and it is not considered a valid theory.

Besides being below high school level, your statement is wrong. A theory that's not testable isn't a scientific theory at all. It's a statement of faith, as in answering no to the question "is the universe intelligent"?

Your theory about intelligent design is invalid because there is no supporting evidence.

First I didn't use the term "intelligent design", so don't ascribe that to me. Second, Darwin himself introduce the means of falsifying his own theory because without the possibility of falsification no theory is scientific. The means Darwin talked about is call irreducible complexity.

Without supporting evidence it becomes a matter of faith as to whether one wants to beleive it.

And I'm waiting for your evidence that the universe in unintelligent. If you can't come up with any then it's just a matter of faith on your part that it's unintelligent. And before you go down another dead end, any observation you can make can just as easily be explained in an intelligent universe as in an unintelligent one.

In science when pr... (Below threshold)
In science when proposing a theory thats not testable, the theory must contain at least some supporting evidence.

A mechanic with that kind of thinking was the last person to "fix" my friends' brake problem....I will forever miss Yolanda. The illusion of this dumb universe gave way to the fact that her car couldn't stop.




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