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More Lies?

Well, as more time passes from the vice-presidential debate, we find that Joe Biden spent quite a bit of time at Home Depot. In particular, in the garden section, near the fertilizer, because he brought more bullshit than we could possibly have expected.

I am very surprised that I missed were his crocks about the Middle East. Biden said:

Here's what the president said when we said no. He insisted on elections on the West Bank, when I said, and others said, and Barack Obama said, "Big mistake. Hamas will win. You'll legitimize them." What happened? Hamas won.

Hey, Joe -- Fatah controls the West Bank. Hamas holds the Gaza Strip. And it wasn't just Bush who "insisted" on elections there, it was most of the world. Because elections are, generally, good things. The Palestinians deserved the right to vote for the party they wished to govern, and they did -- they chose the terrorists of Hamas over the terrorists of Fatah. That is their right, just like it is our right to choose to not deal with terrorists -- even when they win elections.

But it just gets dumber. Biden followed up that crock with THIS whopper:

When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it."

Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel.

HuzzaWHA?

WHEN did the United States and France "kick Hezbollah out of Lebanon?" They've NEVER LEFT. And when did the idea of NATO going into Lebanon EVER come up? Who thought THAT was a good idea?

Meanwhile, the folks rooting for Obama tried assembling their own list of "lies" made by Sarah Palin. And since the McCain camp came up with 14 (eight of which I said were clearly valid, and a ninth most likely true), they had to outdo it and came up with 18 Palin "lies." (hat tip to regular inept troll "brian" for the pointer.)

Let's take a look at those:

SARAH PALIN'S 18 LIES TONIGHT

1. FANNIE MAE/FREDDIE MAC: Palin said "it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures," but fact checkers say that's "Quite A Stretch" And "Barely True," and that McCain was a "latecomer" to the discussion.

2. FUNDAMENTALS ARE STRONG: Palin tried to say "John McCain saying our economy was strong" but McCain has used the phrase "The Fundamentals Of The Economy Are Strong" At Least 16 Times This Year.

3. PARTISAN POLITICS: Palin said McCain is "known for putting partisan politics aside to just get the job done," but he has voted with Bush 90% of the time in the Senate and bragged about his support for Bush on important issues.

4. TAXES ATTACK: Palin repeated the attack that Obama voted for higher taxes 94 times, which the New York Times says is "false," CNN says is "Misleading," and FactCheck.org says is "inflated."

5. TOBACCO REGULATION: Palin said to "look at the tobacco industry" as an example of McCain pushing for even harder and tougher regulations. But McCain opposed expanding the SCHIP children's health insurance program for 5.8 million children because it would increase tobacco taxes.

6. SPENDING INCREASES: Palin said Obama is is proposing "nearly a trillion dollars in new spending," but didn't mention that he has also proposed cuts to balance it out, an attack CNN has already debunked as "misleading" and that ignores the far larger cost of McCain's tax cuts and spending hikes.

7. HEALTH CARE: Palin claimed Obama's health plan is "government run" which has been widely debunked as a "canard."

8. HEALTH CARE. Palin says taxes wouldn't go up under the McCain health care plan, a fact even his own campaign has acknowledged isn't true.

9. TROOPS: Palin repeated what the AP called the "highly misleading" attack that Obama opposed funding for the troops, and Factcheck.org notes that the same methodology would lead to the same conclusion for McCain.

10. GLOBAL WARMING: Palin said "I don't want to argue about the causes" for global warming, when she has clearly taken the position that she doesn't not believe it is man-made.

11. MCCAIN IS CONSISTENT: Palin said McCain" doesn't tell one thing to one group and then turns around and tells something else to another group," when that is exactly what he has done on immigration, telling Hispanic leaders he was for comprehensive reform instead of the enforcement focused approach he has taken with conservatives.

12. MCCLELLAN NOT MCKIERNAN: Palin referred to the US commander in Afghanistan, David McKiernan as "McClellan."

13. MCKIERNAN ON "SURGE:" Palin said that [McKiernan] did not say a surge wouldn't work in Afghanistan, when just yesterday he said "The word I don't use for Afghanistan is 'surge,' " McKiernan stressed, saying that what is required is a "sustained commitment" to a counterinsurgency effort that could last many years and would ultimately require a political, not military, solution

14. KILLING CIVILIANS. Palin said "Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air raiding villages and killing civilians and such a reckless, reckless comment and untrue comment again hurts our cause. That's not what we are doing there." Unfortunately, the Associated Press says that Obama was right in discussing a critically important point about avoiding civilian casualties.

15. TEACHING: Palin said we need to make sure "that education in either one of our agendas, I think, absolute top of the line," when McCain has repeatedly favored tax cuts for the wealthy over funds for more teachers and class size reduction.

16. PARTISAN APPOINTMENTS: Palin said "You do what I did as governor. And you appoint people regardless of party affiliation. Democrats, independents, Republicans, you walk the walk, don't just talk the talk" when she repeatedly appointed friends and supporters to positions for which they weren't qualified.

17. FOCUS ON CLIMATE CHANGE: Palin falsely claimed that she was the first governor to form a climate change subcabinet, when at least 28 states had already taken action.

18. DARFUR DIVESTMENT: Palin claimed that "when I and others" found out that the state had money invested in Sudan that "we called for divestment," when the reality is that Palin's appointees worked to kill a Darfur divestment plan.

Wow. So dumb.

1) "Barely true" now qualifies as a lie? And I don't see any contradiction by saying that McCain pushed hard for reform, but was a latecomer -- he got there late, but fought hard.

2) "Our economy is strong" versus "the fundamentals of the economy are strong." Not quite the same, but a minor difference -- hardly an actual contrast.

3) Again, mixing apples and oranges. McCain's history of bipartisan measures are well-known -- to the point where he has repeatedly pissed off the Republican base. And that goes back decades, not just the narrow window covered by the "voted with Bush 90%" claim. Also, no real contradiction there -- notice how those who cite the 90% figure never actually break that down to specific votes.

4) Nit-picking on a precise number. This usually involves all sorts of legislative process chicanery, so I ignore them as a matter of course -- legislators can end up voting about seventeen times on a single issue, on both sides, deliberately making it impossible to pin them down on anything, so I find such claims pointless. Witness "I actually did vote for the $87 billion -- before I voted against it" claim John Kerry made.

5) Ooh... McCain opposed expanding SCHIP (which I did, too -- it was a bad idea. As part of that, the backers thought to fund it by taxing tobacco. McCain didn't go along with that, so he's a buddy of big tobacco? That's news to them.

6) Another of the "their experts don't agree with our experts about just what our plan will do, so they're lying" bits. The truth or falsehood won't be proven unless Obama gets elected and implements his plan, so to call it a lie now is bullshit.

7) Same as #6.

8) Same again.

9) Obama HAS tried to cut the funding for operations in Iraq. Period.

10) Palin's specific answer: "Yes. Well, as the nation's only Arctic state and being the governor of that state, Alaska feels and sees impacts of climate change more so than any other state. And we know that it's real. I'm not one to attribute every man -- activity of man to the changes in the climate. There is something to be said also for man's activities, but also for the cyclical temperature changes on our planet. But there are real changes going on in our climate. And I don't want to argue about the causes. What I want to argue about is, how are we going to get there to positively affect the impacts?"

She has taken the position that it is not ENTIRELY a man-made problem. And the scientific evidence is leaning in her favor -- that to claim that it is entirely man's fault is nothing short of the sheerest arrogance and hubris. We simply don't have that much power. Natural causes dwarf whatever we can do.

11) McCain's immigration position is one area where he drives a lot of people nuts. He's trying to strike a compromise between the two sides in an area where a lot of folks (myself included) say that there should be very little compromise. I happen to think that McCain's wrong on this issue, but he's been very consistent.

12) If we're going to start saying that misstating someone's name is a lie, can we bring up Joe Biden introducing his running mate, Barack America? Or Ted Kennedy's reference to "Senator Osama Bin... Senator Osama... Senator Obama?" Good god, this one's the weakest I've ever seen.

13) McKiernan said that "elements of the surge" could successfully be applied in Afghanistan.

14) Obama specifically said that "We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there." So, we're JUST air-raiding villages and killing civilians? Sounds pretty clear to me that Obama said the only thing we were doing was bombing vilages and killing civilians. One has to rewrite Obama's precise words to come up with any other interpretation.

15) McCain has opposed "solving" education problems by throwing more money at them. To most folks, that's common sense. To those prostituting themslves to the teachers' unions, that is the only cure. Thanks, but I'll pass.

16) No, one does not rebut Palin's claim to have appointed Democrats, independents, and Republicans to state positions by saying she hired friends and supporters. You cite how many of her appointments were Republicans, and how few were independents and Democrats. Hell, she could have some independent and Democratic friends (and I'm sure she does -- most of us do) who she named to positions, and -- voila -- there, all resolved.

17) Weak. Weak. Weak. Palin said: "As governor, I was the first governor to form a climate change sub-cabinet to start dealing with the impacts." If you take "the first governor" to mean in the nation, yes, she was wrong. But if you take it to mean "the first governor of Alaska," then it's entirely accurate. And from the full context, it's clear that that is what she meant -- she prefaces her response by saying that she is the governor of the only Arctic state.

18) This one has some teeth. Palin did support divesting from the Sudan, but only after it was pretty much too late for the legislation to pass. Prior to that point, her administration put more weight on the side of minimizing the costs and maximizing the returns of the Alaska Permanent Fund instead of taking a moral position. The argument her people put forth -- that their responsibility was to the people of Alaska and protecting their investments, and that divesting wouldn't really do anything for the people being slaughtered -- is not entirely invalid, but her omission of that and saying that she called for divesting as soon as she learned about it is probably the best candidate for a "lie" you can find from this whole sorry list.

On an absolute scale, that puts a dent in Palin's credibility.

On a relative scale, it shows that she is woefully inexperienced and unprepared to compete with someone like Joe Biden, who can sneak about thirteen lies, exaggerations, and perversions of reality in ten words -- and sound utterly sincere and convincing while doing so.


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Comments (13)

Excellent post Jay.<p... (Below threshold)

Excellent post Jay.

like Joe Biden, who can sneak about thirteen lies, exaggerations, and perversions of reality in ten words -- and sound utterly sincere and convincing while doing so.

Whatever happened to the McCain's Sunni/Shia gaffe that the left used repeatedly to cricize McCain? Did it get kicked out of Lebanon along with Hezbollah? Or did it get buried under thirty years of Senate Foreign Relations committee gravitas?

I was surprised he could be... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

I was surprised he could be so dumb to make a statement so blatantly false, I damn near spewed a drink. Then again he's been in the Senate since '73 and has a record of accomplishments only slightly longer than his running mate, if you don't count the number of times he's had his foot removed from his mouth.

Wow! Joey boy getting toute... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Wow! Joey boy getting touted for his many, many years of foreign relations committee work, and he openly lies about the state of foreign powers. Palin's "lies" add up to nothing in respect to her experience and knowlege. In this case, Joey is by far the liar. Joey finally wins. ww

This election cycle is like... (Below threshold)

This election cycle is like Olympic boxing judging during the Cold War era.

An American boxer could beat the hell out of a boxer from Bulgary...only to have the Czech, Russian and East German "judges" award the fight to the Bulgarian! Happened routinely!!

The Czech, Russian and East German "judges" this year are the A/P, NY Times, CNN...et al

You know-I am more than wil... (Below threshold)
just me:

You know-I am more than willing to give Palin a break on some foreign policy type mistakes. The vast majority of her time before politics and after politics was focused on where she lived, and what was going on there.

Biden has been in the congress almost as long as I have been alive, and has had his finger in the foreign policy committee pretty much that whole time. He should know what has been going on with regards to Israel, and he sure as heck should know about Hezbollah and Lebanon and which terrorists groups control which portions in Israel.

Also, while he and Obama may have called for there to be no elections for the Palestinians, I don't really recall them making a huge case for it. I don't really remember too many people arguing that it was a mistake.

Biden's mistake wasn't just a small oops given where he has served in the senate.

As for Palin's gaffes-most of them are along the lines of nuance-or really dueling truths in the gray areas, but Biden told outright whoppers that would get most kids in trouble with their parents if they told them.

Jay:15) M... (Below threshold)
Larry:

Jay:

15) McCain has opposed "solving" education problems by throwing more money at them. To most folks, that's common sense. To those prostituting themslves to the teachers' unions, that is the only cure. Thanks, but I'll pass.

Don't forget that William Ayer's connection with the Annenberg Foundation got 100 Million dollars into the Woods Foundation, which was devoted to improving education in Chicago. Obama was the Chairman.

The money was spent and nothing changed.

There's no question that Bi... (Below threshold)

There's no question that Biden is an accomplished bullshit artist who pulls "facts" out of his ass whenever he doesn't know something. He demonstrated this quite well on Thursday night.

But I think it's going too far to call these things "lies." I don't think Biden is lying in the sense of knowing that something is false and then saying it anyway. Lying carries with it some sort of malicious intent, which I think is absent here. I think Biden honestly believes what he says is true. Like that remark about Roosevelt going on TV in 1929. This is obviously bullshit, but like most of the bullshit he spewed during he debate, I don't think it's malicious bullshit.

"I don't think it's malicio... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"I don't think it's malicious bullshit."

I disagree. Biden is famous for sounding like he knows what he's talking about on almost any issue. He can ramble on and on. Only when you fact-check him do you find that it's mostly bullshit. That's intentional. If done with intent, it's a freakin' lie. To say otherwise would be like giving the green light to a rapist whose only defense is "she asked for it". After all, doesn't the rapist BELIEVE what he says?

Where was that restaurant J... (Below threshold)
Larry:

Where was that restaurant Joe? Uh, how long has it been closed?

Its absolutely correct Bide... (Below threshold)
C. Bensing:

Its absolutely correct Biden knows how to lie forcefully and eloquently and I would never want him as VP.
That being said what I did notice was that he had respect for Palin which she earned after just a very short time in the debate. He was not condescending, he showed actual humor about some of her comebacks in other words he treated her as an equal. He may be a hack but at least he still knows how to act like a gentleman unlike other Democatic lackeys who have shown only contempt for Palin whether in interviews or in talking about her. I didn't think his manner of shaking her hand was sexist, but I do think he was smitten...well join the crowd.
CB

Slo Joe Biden - "Move N... (Below threshold)
marc:

Slo Joe Biden - "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it."

Biden, in his pre-VP candidate days made that same case.

Biden also called for removing troops from Iraq and shifting some to Darfor. During this weeks debate he repeated a call for the U.S. to set-up a "no-fly" zone over the Sudan.

He and The Messiah both are absolutely clueless on NATO's ability to deploy beyond the European Continent.

Their mission in Afghanistan was/is the first-time they have ever deployed, and to call it meager is being overly kind, as many of the NATO nations there are in support roles and if forced to use a weapon in anger would more than likely shoot themselves in the foot.

Fact is nATO is a shell of it's former "Cold-War" self and without a massive expansion of force is as useless and tits on a boar hog.

As for Biden's "no-fly" zone.... Pfffttt!

Hasn't he and every dem, progressive, leftist, moonbat, lefturd and leftoid all said the U.S. Military are "stretched thin" and breaking?

Does he NOT KNOW every effort by the U.S. has been stopped cold by China in the U.N. (can you say Chinese owned Sudanese OIL?)

Does he NOT KNOW the logistics of setting up a no-fly zone. Just where will the 2-4 squadrons of planes be based close enough to provide 24-hour protection? (setting aside the fact the vast majority of killing there is done by machete not from the air and will NEVER be stopped via a no-fly zone)

Both Biden and The Messiah are absolutely clueless on military matters and are far more scary than the lunatics that are "afraid" of Palin.

Palin didn't lie on numb... (Below threshold)
John Busche:

Palin didn't lie on number 4 look at this

23 were against proposed tax cuts. 7 were "for measures that would have lowered taxes for many, while raising them on a relative few, either corporations or affluent individuals". 11 were to increase taxes on people making more than $1 million a year, to help fund programs such as Head Start, school nutrition, or veterans' health care. 53 were votes on budget resolutions or amendments that "could not have resulted by themselves in raising taxes," though many "were clear statements of approval for increased taxes" . The total includes multiple votes on the same measures. so not a lie

by the way awesome post

Enjoyed the post and fact... (Below threshold)
MF:

Enjoyed the post and facts.
Jay. thanks

I just got back from a mini vacation and just read about the loss of Mr. Biden's mother-in-law.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/05/bidens-mother-laws-death-pulls-trail/#
Prayers and support go to the Biden family.




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