"if liberals continue to climb in power, will we see a drastic return to that kind of behavior?"

Tragically, you bet. And in the liberal fervor to counter those "fully trained and capable of violent action," we'll need a country-wide conscription of Obamajugend to counter the evil military, including the national guard.

The truly sad state of affairs is that our educational system - that same one that promotes a college degree over anything useful - produces crap thinkers like Neiwert by the truckload.

I'm a liberal and a Democrat, and my family has a long history of military service. My dad's brother was seriously injured in an electrical fire on a nuclear sub during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Another relative was killed when a Japanese pilot crashed his plane into the gun turret on his ship during WWII. Another relative was part of an Army Air Force that was hacked up by a propeller in a ground aviation accident reloading a plane with bombs in England. My grandfather was a merchant ship captain that ran supplies for the allies in the Pacific and captured and flogged by the Japanese. My dad's other brother was a Marine Corps member. My dad was in the Korean War assigned to a dangerous POW camp. I had my Vietnam War draft card, but was not called up once President Nixon had a potential peace deal reached, so I missed the military service unlike my other close relatives.

Our family fought the Nazis, Japanese, North Korean and Chinese Communists, and some lost their lives or faced serious injuries in their service to this country. And most of the men in the family were liberals and Democrats.

Paul Hooson -

My thanks to your family for their service. Liberal or conservative, those who serve deserve all our respect - our ability to converse here in freedom results from them.

Thanks for a great post.

Were, Hooson, were.
Today's liberals are anything but liberal in the classical sense.
Even your own examples are from earlier generations.

Gosh, guys, take a deep breath and relax. There are plenty of pro-military liberals and Democrats. Myself and Paul are two. John Kerry and Jim Webb, winners of medals for bravery, are two more. David Who? at "Crooks and Liars." You don't go to blogs to take the pulse of the mainstream of the party.

Obamajugend? Please!!!

I opposed the war in Vietnam and I oppose the war in Iraq, but God help the dissenter who disrespects one of our combat troops in my presence.

How despicable is that? The FBI acknowledged that there are maybe around 200 neo-Nazis currently serving in the military, out of the almost 3 million currently serving. ... So basically, our entire military is rotten.

And how is this different, Cassy, from when you take the actions of a single person and expand it to reflect on all liberals (just about every single post of yours)? In fact, you're doing it right now... David Neiwert writes something, so basically all liberals hate the troops. At least 200 out of 3 million is significantly better odds than you have to work with.

You really are becoming a self-parody. Entertaining as it is.

Dave Noble -

We're on the same page regarding the troops; they deserve better in several regards.

As for my Obamajugend crack - that's from O's mouth; remember his unscripted comment in Colorado - "We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded"

Change a couple of words in there and it sure seems like what is happening now:

"...the presence of scores of angry, disaffected, and psychologically damaged liberals, fed a steady diet of "mainstream media left wing propaganda," poised to organize into a political force aimed at "rebirthing" the nation and its heritage."

The One is here to make it happen! You can count on it.

Brian -

How is this any different from the portrayal of his fellow troops by Scott Thomas Beauchamp? The New Republic is not a liberal magazine? The New Republic is not mainstream media?

We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded"

And they will be used to suppress conservatives? Of course they will, supported from the air by UN black helicopters.

Dave Noble -

Suppress conservatives? How about just suppressing dissent? True, conservatives will be quicker on the case (just check the level of dissent among the suck-up media over the past two years), but anyone that brought focus to gaffes from the big Zero would be stifled.

I just re-read Animal Farm for grins - I'd suggest everyone read it for a little insight.

Those who profess to support the troops must also support the mission--the two are intrinsic. To do otherwise is to say DIRECTLY to their faces you consider their effort and sacrifice MEANINGLESS.

As a vietnam vet, I can only say I wish the left would take their "support" for our military and SHOVE it til they CHOKE on it.

wow i believe this may be the dumbest article to be posted here in some time

the great irony is that it preaches against guilt by association between soldiers and neonazis, while preaching for guilt by association between some unknown author and all liberals (whoever that REALLY is these days)

cassy seems a bit confused to say the least!

** palin 2012 - let freedumb ring **

Is that supposed to be hajis? Seriously, Hachies? Is that the new mexican restaurant down the road?

Gosh, guys, take a deep breath and relax. There are plenty of pro-military liberals and Democrats. Myself and Paul are two. John Kerry and Jim Webb

What?

WHAT?

What are you smoking?

peabody, you're so far down the intelligence chain you can't see dumb that far up. I'll agree, however, that painting the left with a broad brush isn't overly helpful.

On the other hand, Crooks & Liars is aptly named.

Dear God...

Please listen to me, as a former active duty Marine, I can tell you that this rectal discharge ("Lance Corporal Burton" of the 2nd Battalion Fox Company Pit 2097, from Florida, "Love to shoot my M16A2 service rifle effectively at the Hachies (Iraqis)," and, "Love to watch things blow up (Hachies House).") is VERY recently out of Boot Camp, is 18 years old, and has no conceivable idea what he is talking about.

The truth is that I discovered a trend among such "Gung-ho" individuals in the service: They are the first to break down into tears at the first sign of reality in war.

This Man-child is in no way the mean average of the mental status of the Marine Corps.

He is trying very hard to impress his friends, superiors, and possibly family with such transparently childish drivel.

Also, this MoTard (or Motivated Retard) who probably signed up for, and will get, an administration job (another trend...) has some clerical errors in his "About Me":

1. "Plt" for platoon, not "Pit"
2. The word is "Haji", plural is "Hajis". It means "respected man who has been on the 'Haj' or pilgramige to Mecca". Feminine is "Hajia".

LCpl Burton might know these things if he'd been in for longer than one fiscal quarter before reveling in violent acts he most likely will be miles away from at the closest point.

Phew, okay, blood pressure returning to normal...

God, I hated guys like him...

Still do.

James,

John Kerry - It seems to me that there is no more fundamental way of supporting the military than actual service, particularly in combat.

irongrandpa,

I understand where you're coming from, but sometimes the best way to support our troops is to keep them out of missions that are ill-advised. If you are serving your country, your sacrifice is never wasted. It's the duty of our troops to perform the missions they are given. It's our duty as civilians and voters to ensure the civilian leadership chooses those missions wisely and trains and equips our troops properly to perform them.

Dave: So where are the actual service discharge papers, the real ones, not the altered ones, for your icon JFK?

Rare for me to re-visit a thread.

Had to here. Spare me the rationalizations, Dave, heard them all. You'll give lip service to the military, but the disdain shows through as clearly as can be. You needn't reply to this post, I don't care to read the tortured reasonings of you people any more.

Suffice it to say your ilk has, and likely will be, there to fulminate eternally. So have a nice life, sport.

""Lance Corporal Burton" of the 2nd Battalion Fox Company Pit 2097"

The only units in the Marines that use Platoon numbers in the thousands (i.e. "2097") are the Recruit training Regiments. In the Fleet the Platoons are all single digits (i.e. First Platoon, Second Platoon, etc.)

Also, A Marine graduating out of Boot camp as a Lance Corporal is VERY RARE. although possible.

I don't believe Burton Lance Corporal or otherwise, exists.

Shorter irongrampa: "Sometimes words are hard, and I only like the colours black and white. Shut up, Dave."

Here are two beliefs that are perfectly consistent with one another: 1) people who enlist in the armed forces to serve their country are brave and noble souls; 2) the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a really stupid idea.

Believing #2 does not exclude me from believing #1. Opposing a war is not equivalent to opposing those who volunteer to fight it. You would actually have to be a really stupid person to disagree with this, as it's truth is so obvious as to be trivial.

Woops: its truth. In the possessive sense.

Si I'm "noble", huh, hyper, for serving? Funny, I've found just about all who espouse that sentiment to have somehow missed put on said nobility of serving their country, and the ones who thoyught the war was a mistake and DID serve just shut up and showed solidarity with their brethren.
Which camp are you in?

You can disregard the typos, as typo king I must uphold my crown.

With all due respect gramps, I'd like to cordially invite you to go have intercourse with yourself.

I'm not sure which war you fought in, if any, but let's use the Vietnam war as an example. I think that war was stupid: bad for your country, and a callous waste of Vietnamese and American life. That doesn't make you any less brave or honourable if you enlisted with the intention of serving your country and fighting alongside other young people.

I haven't volunteered to fight in any wars, not that that makes me any less qualified to criticize the ones that have been or are being fought. Also don't think that makes me more or less of a good person.

With all due respect, Max, I'd have to return the orangutang.

Hyper--you just earned my respect for that--I doubt we'll ever agree on the subject, but thanks for stating your position so cogently.

My war was Vietnam,and I have no regrets--my sense of mission was and is crystal clear. And I STILL say, if you profess to support the troops, you must also support the mission--the two are INTRINSIC. To do otherwise is saying directly TO THEIR FACES you consider their effort and sacrifice MEANINGLESS. So you may wish to ponder that, if you would.

"Opposing a war is not equivalent to opposing those who volunteer to fight it."

I agree with a lot of what Hyperbolist is saying here...we have pretty similar positions on this subject.

I never agreed with the invasion of Iraq, not from the start. At the same time, as someone who lives close to a pretty large military base, I have known plenty of people in the military. They are indeed brave people. I can't even IMAGINE going over to the Middle East and going through all of that. I remember one young guy who was continually redeployed. He was the nicest, coolest guy who came into the restaurant that I worked at. Each time he left I hoped he would be ok, that he would make it back home alright.

There are the policies of the US government, and then there is the military, which is expected to carry out those policies. They are two different things. The men and women in the US armed forces do not draft our foreign policy, and I do not hold them responsible for the decisions that our political leaders make (whether we are talking about Clinton, Bush, or Obama).

Hell, if you read about the history of the current war in Iraq, the US military was not exactly given the greatest support by the US govt from the start. There were all kinds of bad policy decisions that the military leaders had to deal with.

The idea that we must stand behind each and every war that our government gets into is a dangerous idea, IMO. We are supposed to voice our opinions and keep an eye on the politicians who run the country. The military is a vital resource, and one that should not be used lightly (again, that's an opinion).

Irongrampa, what if the Obama administration decided to initiate a military action that you felt was completely WRONG? Should you just keep your mouth shut as good Americans are shipped overseas? Or should you speak your mind? I think you should voice your opinion.

Irongrampa wrote:

"And I STILL say, if you profess to support the troops, you must also support the mission--the two are INTRINSIC."

I understand your point, and it's a good point. This is complicated, that's for sure. If we don't support the people who are shipped off, they can be effectively abandoned--both abroad and when they get back home. That kind of crap happened a lot in Vietnam, when American soldiers were held responsible for the policy decisions of LBJ and others. I think that what happened then was absolutely wrong.

At the same time, I think that the war in Vietnam was a complete mistake--that the US got involved in what was basically the aftermath of an anti-colonial war. Robert McNamara explained it pretty well in The Fog of War: to the Vietnamese it was a war of Independence. To the US it was part of the Cold War, but to the Vietnamese, who had just kicked out the French in the 50's, it looked like an extension of the colonial conflict. History matters.

"To do otherwise is saying directly TO THEIR FACES you consider their effort and sacrifice MEANINGLESS."

I disagree. How could losing more than 58,000 Americans be meaningless? The lives of so many people were either lost or changed forever. The war in Vietnam may have been full of wrong decisions, misunderstandings, and mistakes made by the US govt, but it was anything but meaningless to the people who were sent over there to fight, IMO. Of course, my understanding only comes from talking to people who went there, from reading books, from films. I was never there. Hell, I was BORN in 1975. But I grew up learning about the effects of that war. It was a HUGE effort, and it was a massive sacrifice for American families. Again, it was anything BUT meaningless.

At the same time, from what I know about the history of the Cold War, Vietnam, the former USSR, and China, it was a mistake for the US to get involved the way it did (one last opinion)

Maybe we disagree. I think you make good points irongrampa, and they have definitely got me thinking. Maybe you will consider my POV as well.

One more thing. The entire premise of the main post by Cassy is so riddled with illogical, oversimplified, stereotypical understandings of the current political world that we live in that I can't believe it makes it past the main editors here.

How Cassy can take the words of ONE "journalist" and pretend that they speak for everyone left of center is beyond me. Cassy, what are you trying to do with this kind of crap? Alienate everyone who does not agree with you politically? Why not stick to specifics and grill this writer for the nonsense that he is peddling? Why pretend that his actions speak for millions of others automatically???

You would probably call me a "liberal" or some other equally informative label. But please, stop using your cartoon versions of the world to characterize what I think about the US troops.

RA--thanks for the discussion. You should know that my viewpoint is colored by the events that took place after I arrived back home, not understanding why I should be called a baby-killer, be spit on, etc. And no, nobody spit on me, 'cause I'm writing this a free man.It always has chapped me that those who disdain our military for the most part seem to overlook WHO'S protecting their privilege to do so.
Anyway,I hope you have the best of Christmases, and a great New Year.

irongrampa:

"You should know that my viewpoint is colored by the events that took place after I arrived back home, not understanding why I should be called a baby-killer, be spit on, etc."

I can understand how that would have a strong effect on your viewpoint. What happened to you and other American soldiers when they came home was absolutely wrong, period. The way that people acted toward the returning soldiers was deplorable. It showed a complete lack of respect, and an ignorance of the complexities of the time. Sometimes, despite different political perspectives, it becomes necessary to imagine how it would feel to be the other person. In the case of the returning US soldiers, WAY TOO MANY people forgot that they were fellow Americans who had just been through hell that were coming back home. Many people acted out of anger, hatred, and bitterness, and completely lost any sense of humanity in the process.

Again, I have to qualify this because I never lived through it; I have just learned about it through books and certain people that I have met (one person who filled me in on some of the realities of the Vietnam war was one of my first anthropology professors. He was a special forces medic, and his views about the war, and the different points of view about it, were very enlightening. He always took time to explain things in a very well-rounded way. He made me realize how complicated and difficult things were back then).

Anyway, thanks to you too for the discussion. And you have a good Christmas and New Years as well. See you around here...

-ryan (RA)

Allow me to rejoin this thread that I believe has resulted in a much-needed airing of important issues and emotions.

"You should know that my viewpoint is colored by the events that took place after I arrived back home, not understanding why I should be called a baby-killer, be spit on, etc."

Irongrampa,

If you had read my initial post you would know how I feel about the treatment of our returning Vietnam vets. Yet you persist in showing nothing but contempt for me because I hold a view different from yours.

Spare me the rationalizations, Dave, heard them all. You'll give lip service to the military, but the disdain shows through as clearly as can be. You needn't reply to this post, I don't care to read the tortured reasonings of you people any more.

Suffice it to say your ilk has, and likely will be, there to fulminate eternally. So have a nice life, sport.

You view me as part of some alien "ilk" That's ironic since I'm a 20-year veteran of the military. Odd that you should see disdain for the military where just the opposite is present. My disdain is reserved for the civilians whose neoconservative academic theories sent our troops into an ill-advised and misbegotten war in Iraq.

Don't get me wrong, I don't need your respect and I can handle your contempt. I'm a grandfather, too and I don't know whether I'm iron, but I've developed a pretty thick hide.

I do, whether you care or not, respect and appreciate your service. But if we all shut up and support whatever war they throw at us, we'll keep sacrificing our brave young men and women to the wrong mission.

I, for one, do not intend to shut up. I consider that my duty as a veteran and an American citizen.

Revisit this thread again, i see. Dave, touche--I have to apologize to you. Kinda jumped the gun there, letting the attitude take over. Too much contact with the radical fringe, I guess. Still think Iraq was justified, tho'--even if only because of the violations of the cease fire accord. Given the current status of Iraq, it's a clear vicxtory for ALL involved, imho.

That aside, I'll extend to you the same wish given other posters--please have a VERY Merry Chruistmas and the best of New Years--likely we'll meet up here after the holidays.

Brother, we can agree to disagree and we can stand together as patriotic Americans, that's what makes this country great.

I again thank you for your service and wish you and yours a Joyous Christmas and Happy New Year.