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Radio Gitmo

Another day, another story of "torture" from Club Gitmo.

Seems, as a form of coercion, detention officials have used (gasp!) "loud music" to make things uncomfortable for these poor innocents.

Qouting from the Associated Press:

The auditory assault went on for days, then weeks, then months at the U.S. military detention center in Iraq. Twenty hours a day. AC/DC. Queen. Pantera. The prisoner, military contractor Donald Vance of Chicago, told The Associated Press he was soon suicidal.

Songs from such bands called "Nine Inch Nails", "Rage Against The Machine", and "Massive Attack" (gee, with names like those, you'd think they would be on the terrorists' top ten list), were played for successive hours to "break" prisoners, or, as people living in reality call them, terrorists.

The tactic has been common in the U.S. war on terror, with forces systematically using loud music on hundreds of detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, then the U.S. military commander in Iraq, authorized it on Sept. 14, 2003, "to create fear, disorient ... and prolong capture shock."

The article, not giving any indication as to what techniques one could actually use against such criminals, went on to tell stories of the "horrific" plight these individuals had to endure.

A campaign being launched Wednesday has brought together groups including Massive Attack and musicians such as Tom Morello, who played with Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave and is now on a solo tour. It will feature minutes of silence during concerts and festivals, said Chloe Davies of the British law group Reprieve, which represents dozens of Guantanamo Bay detainees and is organizing the campaign.


Ruhal Ahmed, a Briton who was captured in Afghanistan, describes excruciating sessions at Guantanamo Bay. He said his hands were shackled to his feet, which were shackled to the floor, forcing him into a painful squat for periods of up to two days.

He continues:

"You're in agony," Ahmed, who was released without charge in 2004, told Reprieve. He said the agony was compounded when music was introduced, because "before you could actually concentrate on something else, try to make yourself focus on some other things in your life that you did before and take that pain away

I guess he means things like beheading Americans.

I really feel for them. I have heard music from these bands, and can say I agree they are terrible to listen to.

Maybe we should play Neil Young's Grammy-nominated mega-hit "Let's Impeach the President".

Bet that would buck up those boy scouts down there.


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Comments (68)

I used to be the lead singe... (Below threshold)

I used to be the lead singer for a band that some would describe as torture to listen to at any volume level.

But seriously, excessively loud music can cause permanent hearing damage. And any intent to cause permanent injury to prisoners should be viewed carefully.

Paul, those so called (pris... (Below threshold)
Allen:

Paul, those so called (prisoners, as you call them), are friggin terrorists. So they have to listen to loud music. Boo f**king hoo. Listen to some of the music coming out of auto's on main street in the USA.

Same thing, except innocent people on main street don't complain, it's just the bleeding hearts who love terrorists.

Tell me Paul, will you take one of them into your house to raise and nurture? Bet you won't.
Why should those terrorists receive a red carpet treatment? They have/tried to kill our soldiers. If they belong to a standing army from a recognized country, then I would have a problem with the way they are treated. BUT THEY ARE NOT!

In fact, IMO, load them all on a old ship, and send them back to mideast. If the ship sinks on the way, oh well, we tried to send them back. I won't miss them, nor lose sleep over them, but I have a feeling you would. Suck it up Paul, only the tree hugers and their ilk are worried about them. The rest of America isn't.

I really find it hard to mu... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

I really find it hard to muster much sympathy for them, paul. Especially when you consider that there's pretty much no major conflict in the last 50 years where our enemies even adhered to the rules of war, much less paid attention to the Geneva Conventions when our soldiers got captured.

Yet supposedly WE must adhere to every jot, line, and 'intention' of them, or... risk our enemies not paying any attention to the Geneva Conventions if they capture any of our soldiers.

Seems like a lose-lose either way. Funny how that works...

Lets see, I'm at a red ligh... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Lets see, I'm at a red light and am being bombarded with &%$# rap music from 2 car lengths away. Can I have those assholes arrested for "torture"?

I could break them in a cou... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

I could break them in a couple of hours with "Mickey" by Toni Basil playing on a continuous loop.

Thanks for putting that hor... (Below threshold)
lowmal:

Thanks for putting that horrid song in my head, Baron.

I don't know what's more disturbing. The song, or the fact you know who wrote it!

I'll just note that the ban... (Below threshold)
John Irving:

I'll just note that the band Drowning Pool is supportive of the U.S. military using their music in this manner. They even went out of their way to sidestep the record labels "no comment" to make sure that statement got out.

Let the bodies hit the floor let the bodies hit the floor

Support those who support the troops and their mission.

Well, thank goodness they d... (Below threshold)
epador:

Well, thank goodness they don't have to listen to decibel enhanced gunfire or bone-crushing reverberations of a few 1,000 pound bombs. That would be real torture.

Nothing makes a place look,... (Below threshold)
JimK:

Nothing makes a place look, feel and sound old than some "wise" "person" overusing "scare quotes" when complaining about "those kids and their music today."

Shawn,Is there som... (Below threshold)
dr lava:

Shawn,

Is there some reason you are lying about Neil Young or is it just that in your world, as evidenced by you posts, you have a difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction?


http://www.grammy.com/

Jeez, will you people liste... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Jeez, will you people listen to yourselves?
How do you KNOW these guys are terrorists? Because a government official says so? You better hope the more paranoid of your brethren are wrong. What happens if an Obama administration official claims YOU are a terrorist?
Did you miss the part where it says where it says that guy was "released without charge"? So we tortured a guy for 2 years but didn't have enough evidence to actually charge him with anything?
Torturing prisoners is UN-AMERICAN.
Holding people without charge is UN-AMERICAN.
If you are an advocate of these things you are UN-AMERICAN.

Woops, didn't mean to say "... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Woops, didn't mean to say "where it says" twice in a row.

"Shawn,Is there so... (Below threshold)
lowmal:

"Shawn,

Is there some reason you are lying about Neil Young or is it just that in your world, as evidenced by you posts, you have a difficulty distinguishing fact from fiction?"

-------------------------------------

Sorry Dr Luva,
But you are incorrect sir/madam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_Impeach_the_President

The only way I would have d... (Below threshold)
Dee:

The only way I would have deemed this an auditory assaultis if they excessively played Rush.

Why don't we send the detai... (Below threshold)
Rodney:

Why don't we send the detainees at Gitmo our tapes of our kids Christmas (sorry) Holiday Concerts. If millions of Americans listen to it, it can't be torture.

I think piping in Limbaugh ... (Below threshold)

I think piping in Limbaugh is an excellent idea.

He already has Club Gitmo gear ready for the terrorists, new uniforms and better bumper music between segments.

I agree with "Dee" on the "... (Below threshold)
Rick13:

I agree with "Dee" on the "Rush" point! I'm assuming we're talking about the band, not the man.

On my first day in basic training, they played a video with some graphic images. The soundtrack was "Bodies" by Drowning Pool. That wasn't torture, it was motivation.

Sounds like being a guard at Gitmo is a pretty cool job! Except for having all those bodily fluids thrown at you.

Yes, Lawson, I agree with y... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Yes, Lawson, I agree with you. We should totally adopt the standards of our enemies over the last 50 years. That way, see, we'll occupy the same moral high ground as the North Koreans, Communist Chinese, North Vietnamese, and the terrorists who beheaded Daniel Pearl.
Yes, sir, that's real patriotism!

Rodney:NO No NO.. ... (Below threshold)
epador:

Rodney:

NO No NO.. That would be inhumane torture.

It was pitch black... (Below threshold)
Smiles:
It was pitch black, and no lights on in the rooms for most of the time ... They hung me up for two days. My legs had swollen. My wrists and hands had gone numb. ... There was loud music, Slim Shady and Dr. Dre for 20 days. I heard this nonstop, over and over. I memorized the music, all of it, when they changed the sounds to horrible ghost laughter and Halloween sounds. It got really spooky in this black hole. ... Interrogation was right from the start, and went on until the day I left there. The CIA worked on people, including me, day and night. Plenty lost their minds. I could hear people knocking their heads against the walls and the doors, screaming their heads off. ... Throughout my time, I had all kinds of music and irritating sounds, mentally disturbing. I call it brainwashing.

Shawn, you are a sadistic SOB if you think this is OK. I suggest you read how it was done when

Same thing, except... (Below threshold)
Smiles:
Same thing, except innocent people on main street don't complain, it's just the bleeding hearts who love terrorists.

Thats not true.

A group of World War II interrogators gathered on Friday at Fort Hunt and criticized the Bush administration's interrogation practices. 90-year-old Henry Kolm said: "We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or ping pong than they do today, with their torture." One of the World War II veterans refused to accept honors from the Army's Freedom Team Salute, citing his opposition to what has happened at Guantanamo and in Iraq.

Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII


Paul, those so cal... (Below threshold)
Smiles:
Paul, those so called (prisoners, as you call them), are friggin terrorists. So they have to listen to loud music. Boo f**king hoo. Listen to some of the music coming out of auto's on main street in the USA.

Allen,

They are suspected terrorist. Our government paid rewards of up to $10,000 to tribal leaders if catch people they (the tribal leaders) said were terrorist. It has been reported that some tribal leaders turned over innocent people to settle old scores and recieve cash rewards. Others gave names to stop from being tortured. You still OK with this?


Smiles,Unfortunate... (Below threshold)
Dave Noble:

Smiles,

Unfortunately, I'm afraid for far too many of the people who blog on this site, war and prison camps are a hallucinatory montage of Rambo movies, "24" episodes, and first-person shooter games.

Did it ever occur to any of you that even if your captive is a terrorist (an issue addressed by Smiles' post above), there is something inherently cowardly in abusing him when he is totally at your mercy. It's a far cry from facing someone in battle. Horrible as war is, the torture of captives is an obscenity. The attitudes reflected in this thread demonstrate a deadening of the American soul in the name of patriotism. And that's blasphemy against all that America stands for.

Bruce Henry -ANY t... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Bruce Henry -

ANY time we do anything that can be remotely construed as being 'bad' - (Abu Ghraib comes to mind immediately) there is a great wailing and gnashing of teeth over how EEvile the Great Satan is. This is despite the fact that the stupid assholes who DID the posing (which, by the way involved no maiming, dislocations, blindings, amputations or even rose anywhere near the level of fun and games and beatings and tortures that was PERFECTLY F**KING ACCEPTABLE TO THE LEFT during the Viet Nam war when perpetrated on OUR POWs) WERE punished by the Army, and the officers who commanded THEM were punished.

Do we receive any credit for our honorable actions? Does the enemy get any criticism for their dishonorable actions?

It very much seems at times like the media is covering war like a game, with their overt, uncritical support going towards the underdog in the conflict. Think of a basketball game where the referees completely ignored all fouls by one team, and continually called fouls on the other when they didn't do anything worthy of it. Wouldn't YOU think the game was uneven and rigged after a while?

Hey now.Rush is my... (Below threshold)
lowmal:

Hey now.

Rush is my favorite band..

That hurts.. It really hurts..

Dave Noble -Deaden... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Dave Noble -

Deadening of the soul? Sir - you have no damn clue. In WW2, no cries were raised about carpet bombing German and Japanese cities. Cities full of innocents, who just happened to become strategic targets. And when the war was over, when the countries GAVE UP - we stopped.

We didn't randomly send planes over to bomb them afterwards. We didn't implant IEDs to kill off the people (though with the state of the art in explosives tech, there WERE large numbers of UXO scattered around - and we lost a lot of EOD folk disarming them) and we REBUILT their countries.

Now we're faced with an enemy who doesn't abide by the laws of armed conflict. Who doesn't mind killing off their own countrymen as long as they feel they can get an advantage from it. Who really torture, maim, and behead when they can?

And YOU are concerned about loud music?

And YOU think WE are the bad guys?

Sir, you have no damn clue.

JLawson Thanks for... (Below threshold)

JLawson

Thanks for calling out to the EOD.

Those guys haven't received anywhere near the appreciation and thanks they deserve.

I could break them... (Below threshold)
I could break them in a couple of hours with "Mickey" by Toni Basil playing on a continuous loop.

I could go one worse. This abomination would have them describing how they dipped Cousin Achmed's shoes in glue when they were eight.

Pssst Dave Noble. A little ... (Below threshold)
ODA315:

Pssst Dave Noble. A little secret for you.

It's just possible there are people on this site that know a shitload more about this subject than you. So do us all a favor, make your point, enjoy the warm glow you get from being rightious, and go back to the kos.

JLawson,The carpet... (Below threshold)
Dave Noble:

JLawson,

The carpet bombing of innocents during WWII was wrong. The deliberate targeting of innocents is terrorism. And who is to say that those actions did not begin a deadening of the American spirit that led to an insensitivity to civilian deaths in Vietnam.

We will be wise as nation when we stop trumpeting our moral superiority. I remember a line from a documentary I saw on the Weather Underground. One of the former members noted that "you can do some pretty terrible things when you know you're right."

"And YOU are concerned about loud music?

And YOU think WE are the bad guys?

Sir, you have no damn clue."

That's a string of flawed rhetoric, Jlawson. Where to start? How about the strawman argument. I did not say that loud music by itself was torture. If it's used to create sleep deprivation over long periods of time, I believe it is. I definitely did not say that we are the bad guys. But when we torture we are doing, to use your simplistic term, a "bad" thing. Use of stress positions to inflict extreme pain. That's not a tough one, is it? Isn't that the essence of torture,
the infliction of pain? Waterboarding - we cited it's use by the Japanese as a war crime.

And I never suggested that we are morally equivalent to AQ or Saddam. That's beyond debate. But is that what we want our national slogan to be? - "America, no where near as bad as AQ." I set our standard a great deal higher than that. I have more respect for American principles.

Torture will not win the War on Terrorism. Good intelligence, smart diplomacy, and the courage and skill of our brave forces will. Torture is not only wrong, it's a distraction from the task at hand. Six years in Gitmo, how fresh is the information you're going to get from that prisoner?

Stop typing in capitals and think, JLawson.

d. nobel - "Did it ever... (Below threshold)
Marc:

d. nobel - "Did it ever occur to any of you that even if your captive is a terrorist (an issue addressed by Smiles' post above), there is something inherently cowardly in abusing him when he is totally at your mercy."

Nobel, how many calories are in "loud music?"

'Cause you know all that "torture" made all the terrorists FAT bastards!

ODA,What's with "P... (Below threshold)
Dave Noble:

ODA,

What's with "Psst, here's a little secret." What are you, one of the Olsen twins?

Then display your extensive knowledge of torture and it's effectiveness.

BTW, never been on kos. And I think I'll stay right here. I know it breaks up your warm little kaffee klatch, but deal with it.

"I really find it hard to m... (Below threshold)
max:

"I really find it hard to muster much sympathy for them, paul. Especially when you consider that there's pretty much no major conflict in the last 50 years where our enemies even adhered to the rules of war, much less paid attention to the Geneva Conventions when our soldiers got captured.

Yet supposedly WE must adhere to every jot, line, and 'intention' of them, or... risk our enemies not paying any attention to the Geneva Conventions if they capture any of our soldiers." - JLawson

That's exactly what used to make us better than them. Quit being such a pussy.


this is the issue where the... (Below threshold)
peabody3000:

this is the issue where the disgrace of neoconservatism really goes off the rails

these arent even prisoners. theyre detainees. not charged with anything, much less convicted

many neocons are willing to let their fear and anger be taken out on faceless strangers who may be, and in thousands of cases have already been determined to be, completely innocent. that is what makes such neocons total scum. its also why america took out the trash last november and has killed off the neocon reich forever

you cant wish to deny basic human rights like that and call yourself an american. rather you are only a threat to america because you threaten her ideals

Oddly enough I was at a Chr... (Below threshold)
SCSI.wuzzy:

Oddly enough I was at a Christmas party last night and one of the guests was a marine Colonel that was one of the COs down at guantanamo. His Karaoke rendition of "Hot Stuff" certainly bordered on torture

Amen peabody. This issue al... (Below threshold)
max:

Amen peabody. This issue also points out how fragile human society really is. All you have to do is tap into our inherent fear of the unknown, and it's amazing the lengths otherwise rational humans are willing to go to. Lawson et al. really don't see these people as people. That makes it ridiculously easy to justify all sorts of horrible acts. Luckily they're a minority. For now.

Once again, you DO NOT KNOW... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Once again, you DO NOT KNOW these people are terrorists. The only reason you think they are terrorists is because a government official told you that they are.
Once again, did you miss the part about the guy being RELEASED WITHOUT CHARGE? Can you really rationalize holding people for years, without informing them of the charges against them, or indeed if there even are any charges against them, torturing them all the while, and then releasing them? "Woops, we must have been mistaken!"
Is that how Americans should act? Is that how fearful we have become?
We are not North Korea.
We are not Communist China.
We are not North Vietnam.
But some would have us behave as if we were.

I personally know they're t... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

I personally know they're terrorists, which is why they are there. Just like you personally seem to know they are all pure as the driven snow.

I will give you the part about we are not North Korea, Communist China or North Vietnam. Not to mention Saddam's Iraq or modern day Egypt or Iran. I expect that they will hear the wisdom of your heartfelt sobs and discontinue their wicked ways forthwith.

Any day now, Bruce.

bobdog - surely thats not t... (Below threshold)
peabody3000:

bobdog - surely thats not the best you can do. do you wanna take a serious shot at a real response?

I just saw a commercial on ... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

I just saw a commercial on the History Channel for Time/Life Music's new Scurrilous Sounds of Guantanamo CD collection. Free shipping if you order with your credit card in the next ten minutes.

I'm always amused at the lo... (Below threshold)
jmc:

I'm always amused at the logic of sadists. "They are terrorist, they deserve what happens to them."

One imagines, "She was asking for it" isn't to far behind. You see, to people who take sadistic glee in the pain of others, the flimsiest of excuses is all that is needed to unleash their brand of justice on the world.

The detainees in Cuba are not terrorist, they are alleged terrorist. That difference is crucial to anyone with half a brain, because it means no one has bothered to stand before the public and say, "Here is my evidence that this person is a terrorist." No one has said, "We have a video tape of Mohammad the taxi-driver sun bathing with Bin laden, making a bomb, with the words 'death to America' scrawled across it." Basically, no one has done this because no one has evidence they feel is strong to go court with.

America is a free country, a country that believes in the dignity of humans beings so strongly, that when wrote to the world the reasons we were starting our own country (the declaration of independence) we argued that "all men are created equal and they are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights..."

When we wrote the constitution we got more specific about what those rights were. Freedom from cruel and unusual punishment was among them.

Now sadists, ever looking for a way to inflict cruelty on the world will argue, "That, only applies to Americans. Non-Americans don't have those rights" They ignore the fact the declaration of independence in essence argues that those rights are the birthright of mankind and that is why we choose to setup a government that protects them. Those in favor of Guantanamo and torture are Un-American in the truest sense of the world.

Bobdog, please tell me HOW ... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Bobdog, please tell me HOW you personally know that all the detainees in Gitmo are terrorists.
Now please show me where I or anyone else claimed that they were "pure as driven snow".
In other words, Bobdog, your comment is a lie.

Oh, now we're "sadist... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Oh, now we're "sadists".

That the new meme being pushed out, jmc? Anything to discredit the opposition and cloud the issue, right? An implication that we just LOVE to see terrorists writhing in pain from overly loud applications of Bob Denver and Metallica?

Honestly - you guys beat your own heads into the wall on this. It'd be laughable if it weren't so damn pathetic.

"But some would have us behave as if we were."

No, Bruce Henry - I'm sick and tired of our media portraying us as being WORSE than those lovely little examples you state - while never criticising the actions of how those countries treated our military when they captured them.

"That's exactly what used to make us better than them"

The implication there, Max, is that we are WORSE than them now. Please cite how playing loud music at someone is the equivalent of or worse than beating them up, breaking their arms, and damn near starving them to death.

Because I just KNOW, Bruce.... (Below threshold)
bobdogdoo:

Because I just KNOW, Bruce. Unlike you, I trust my government and my President. They've earned it. And they keep me safe.

If you don't believe they're terrorists, it's because you're a terrorist.

Not one of the conservative... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Not one of the conservatives on this thread have addressed the issue that I and others have repeatedly raised, (except for the one doofus who claims to "personally know"), which is that these people MAY or MAY NOT be actual terrorists. Surely a lot of them are, but many may not be. We don't know; we have only the government's word for it. Indeed, the majority of them have been RELEASED WITHOUT CHARGE after being held for months and years and repeatedly tortured. Not just with loud music, but with stress positions, sleep deprivation, exposure to extreme temperatures, and solitary confinement.
Now, if you guys think that can be justified under our Constitution, I suggest you read it again. Or, more likely, for the first time.

Oh, now we're "sa... (Below threshold)
jmc:
Oh, now we're "sadists".

If you think it is appropriate to torture you are a sadist.

That the new meme being pushed out, jmc? Anything to discredit the opposition and cloud the issue, right? An implication that we just LOVE to see terrorists writhing in pain from overly loud applications of Bob Denver and Metallica?

Yip, that is it. It gives bad information, it is against our values as americans, I think anyone for it gets a real sense of satisfaction out of knowing these people are facing american wrath. The problem is that no one has provided any credible evidence these people are who the sadists say they are.

Honestly - you guys beat your own heads into the wall on this. It'd be laughable if it weren't so damn pathetic.

As a sadist I'm sure you would like to bash some heads into walls.

"But some would have us behave as if we were."

No, Bruce Henry - I'm sick and tired of our media portraying us as being WORSE than those lovely little examples you state - while never criticising the actions of how those countries treated our military when they captured them.

Well, now when american troops are captured in any future wars the people capturing them are going to say, might as well torturethese guys, we know the Americans will do it to us.

The implication there, Max, is that we are WORSE than them now. Please cite how playing loud music at someone is the equivalent of or worse than beating them up, breaking their arms, and damn near starving them to death.

Well, by itself not (although I beleive a similar technique was used against McCain)But when you add simulated drowning, extreme sensory isolationof the kind that can drive people nuts, plus well beating someone todeath (see taxi to the darkside) You do lose the moral highground. Basically anyone who does this hates what america stands for and therefore hates america.

Congratulations to whoever ... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Congratulations to whoever posted #44. I actually took it seriously for a minute before I noticed the "doo" at the end of the name.

OKNot everyone at GI... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

OK
Not everyone at GITMO get's full interrogation or torture. It is an option. So saying that not everyone sent there is not a terrorist is valid... BUT they aren't all given the full monty. Most are just questioned, and the answers compared to other prisoners and known facts.

I missed the release of the... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

I missed the release of the Bob Denver album. Did Ginger and Mary Ann sing backup?

Nope - it was Bob Denver do... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Nope - it was Bob Denver doing Blue Man Group covers....

His vocalizations on "T.V. Song" and "Utne Wire Man" were the stuff of legends.

Common ground at last! Than... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Common ground at last! Thanks, JLawson!

Bruce, they may or may not ... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Bruce, they may or may not be terrorists, but they are all "enemy combatants" - i.e. captured on or near the battlefield. Since jihadis don't avail themselves with uniforms it is impossible to discern what role an individual may occupy within the WOT. They are not entitled even to the protections of the Geneva Conventions.

So by what logic are foreign nationals captured on foreign soil entitled to the protections of the US Constitution?

They're not, so we are detaining them until we can be certain they should be released. If they are indeed enemy combatants they can be held indefinitely and squeezed for intel as we see fit.

If they don't like it they should start wearing uniforms with recognizable insignia.

"The implication there, Max... (Below threshold)
max:

"The implication there, Max, is that we are WORSE than them now." - JLawson

Wrong. Don't act like such a dumbass, Lawson. It's unbecoming.

Baron, that's such horseshi... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Baron, that's such horseshit. If someone accuses their neighbour of being a jihadist so that they can collect a hefty reward, that is good enough to have someone locked up in Gitmo. "Enemy combatant" is how they are referred to, but it is not actually what many of them are. Words are only interesting or useful when they correspond to reality or at the very least an ideal of it. This sorry jingoism is unbecoming of someone who cares about how his country is perceived.

Hyperbolist is correct. The... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Hyperbolist is correct. The Constitution doesn't talk about foreign nationals or citizens. It says that "no person" shall be held without charges or be denied due process.
It's black letter law.
Indefinite detention without charge or recourse is UN-AMERICAN.
Torture is UN-AMERICAN.
If you advocate or excuse these practices you are UN-AMERICAN.
Period.

If someone accuses... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:
If someone accuses their neighbour of being a jihadist so that they can collect a hefty reward, that is good enough to have someone locked up in Gitmo.

Speaking of horseshit, can you provide one example of a US citizen being held at Guantanamo? No, you cannot. Can you provide one example of someone arrested inside the US being held at Guantanamo? No, you cannot. The people at Guantanamo are all foreign nationals captured on foreign soil.

How much time did Zacarias Moussaoui spend at Guantanamo? None. Where is he now? Supermax prison.

I don't know where you got the impression that how the US is perceived is any concern of mine. The world ignores our unmatched-in-the-history-of-mankind generosity and sacrifice towards other nations to find fault in everything America does. Releasing the folks at Guantanamo wouldn't change that.

Hell, I'd like to see Guantanamo closed just so we could move everyone there to the North Slope in Alaska. Or maybe Canada would like to take them in? Is there a lot of enthusiasm in Canukistan to repatriate the innocent, caring souls at Guantanamo to greater Toronto?

Bruce,Can you cite... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Bruce,

Can you cite the Article of the Constitution in which that is articulated? Or the applicable court precedents that extend constitutional protection to foreign combatants captured in foreign lands? I'd like to read through them.

The Constitution is pretty clear on the whole "right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" thing but we've got waiting periods for handguns, age restrictions, felony exemptions, automatic weapon bans, etc. How does that square with black letter law?

Restrictions on gun sales is UN-AMERICAN.
Denying me a bed-mounted Vulcan cannon for my pick-up is UN-AMERICAN.
If you don't believe people can own machine guns you are UN-AMERICAN.

Was Abraham Lincoln UN_AMER... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Was Abraham Lincoln UN_AMERICAN? He suspended habeas corpus and sent thousands of Confederate soldiers to die at Camp Douglas. Let Sherman burn Atlanta. He was a lawyer, so it's safe to assume he was familiar with the Constitution. Deliberately ignoring its text regarding "no person" being held without charges or denied due process must make him one of US history's greatest monsters.

Was FDR UN-AMERICAN too? H... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Was FDR UN-AMERICAN too? He interred thousands of Japanese-Americans and allowed our armed forces to hold captured prisoners indefinitely without due process.

Well, no due process other than the very same military tribunals through which the detainees at Guantanamo are adjudicated.

The losers at GITMO are luc... (Below threshold)

The losers at GITMO are lucky they're not dead.
http://rightklik.blogspot.com/

Baron:Article 1, Sec... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Baron:
Article 1, Sec.9:
"the privilege of the writ of Habeus Corpus shall not be suspended, unless in cases of REBELLION or INVASION the public safety may require it."
So Lincoln had an excuse--rebellion. FDR, not so much.
The 5th Amendment:
"...nor shall any PERSON be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law..."
Does that clear it up for you?
By the way, I don't give a damn what kind of guns you own.

Does that clear it... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomoron:
Does that clear it up for you?

No, I'm afraid it doesn't. In response, I will pump my chest out more, tell you how merciless I am, and give you a DETAILED LIST of all my handguns, including all my knives and a few choice examples of women's lingerie I wear underneath my khakis.

Does that clear it up FOR YOU?

Bruce,Why did you ... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Bruce,

Why did you truncate the 5th Amendment?

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;

Seems the Founding Fathers knew better than to guarantee some constitutional rights to combatants - US or otherwise - during wartime.

Commenter #62,
Do you have anything productive to add or are you just another uninspired, run-of-the-mill cunt of a troll?

Bruce,Article 1, S... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Bruce,

Article 1, Section 8 give Congress the power:

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

Once again, the black letter law is quite clear about who decides which rights are bestowed upon people captured in combat.

Baron: Good point. L... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Baron:
Good point. Looks like neither you nor I are lawyers. I for one will refrain in future from dispensing legal rulings, followed by a pompous "Period."
I still think indefinite detention and torture are wrong, fundamentally unfair, counterproductive, and profoundly unAmerican, though.

Commenter # 62 may be the s... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Commenter # 62 may be the same guy as commenter # 44.

Bruce,There is obv... (Below threshold)
Baron Von Ottomatic:

Bruce,

There is obviously room for good faith disagreement on exactly which rights captured combatants are entitled.

I don't believe anyone should be tortured, but again, what defines torture is an area where we can disagree in good faith. Loud music may be unpleasant, but I don't think it constitutes torture.

It's a difficult call to make when you are dealing with folks who operate outside the boundaries of conventional warfare.

I see your point about disa... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

I see your point about disagreeing in good faith, but whatever method is used to inflict prolonged sleep deprivation is indeed a form of torture, be it loud music, compulsory standing, being poked with a stick, etc.




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