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Alert: Senate and House Democrats Reach Deal on Stimulus; Republicans Completely Frozen Out

They Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid worked all through the night - in secret - on a deal while freezing the Republicans out completely.

The Democrats assisted by three RINOs are passing the largest bill in American history against the will of the American people. Even though the American people are calling the Capitol demanding that their representatives in the House and Senate vote no, they are voting yes and saddling the American people with a debt that they will pay back for generations.


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Comments (75)

Well, why should they bothe... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Well, why should they bother listening to the people who elected them? If they were important, they'd be politicians in Washington! That they aren't means their puny opinions are worthless - all you've got to do is promise them money or a solution to their problems, and they'll fall all over themselves electing you!

And really, what's the point in being a self-appointed aristocracy if there isn't a lower class to lord it over? All those people who actually go out and make money and think they're as good as the aristocrats inside the Beltway have got another think coming!

/sarc - but just barely.

Bend over, folks - it's gonna hurt US a lot more than it's gonna hurt THEM.

Our Republic is dying a ver... (Below threshold)

Our Republic is dying a very ugly and painful death.
http://www.rightklik.net/

against the will of the ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

against the will of the American people
...
the American people are calling the Capitol demanding that their representatives in the House and Senate vote no

What evidence do you have for these claims?

Gee, troll, could it be the... (Below threshold)

Gee, troll, could it be the people asking staffers how the calls are running and finding they're running that way? Could it be the polls that show massive disagreement with the current bill? Go back to your bridge.

-

Looks like the Dems found a way to 'cut' the bill down. What did they cut out? The tax credits, of course:

Among the considered cuts to the bill, according to numerous Democratic aides involved in the talks, is a trim to Obama's tax credit -- $500 per worker and $1,000 per couple -- with a phase out beginning sooner than originally written: at about $70,000 per individual and $140,000 for couples.

We are just chattering mass... (Below threshold)
retired miilitary:

We are just chattering masses and just because they are spending our money we shouldnt have a say. If you dont believe me just ask Chuckie Schumer.

Really? It doesnt take a De... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Really? It doesnt take a Democrat to figure out that people arent calling to say how happy they are with the idea of spending a trillion dollars.

"We learn from Politico that the phones in Collins', Snowe's, and Specter's office are jammed with people calling to express their disdain for the stimulus bill. One aide to Senator Snowe tried to say that it was people calling to express their support for her. That's total bunk. Not when 67% of the American people trust their own judgment over that of Congress and 44% of the American people believe that they could randomly choose their representatives from the phone book and get a better Congress:"

Oh, and also these tax brea... (Below threshold)

Oh, and also these tax breaks are gonna have to go:

Democratic officials say that while numerous details remain to be worked out, a major expansion of an existing tax break for homebuyers, approved in the Senate last week, would likely be jettisoned. There was also pressure to scale back a Senate-passed tax break for new car buyers, according to these officials.

Can't have anyone accusing them of abiding by the wishes of a majority of Americans that think there should be MORE tax cuts in the bill.

Gee, troll, could it be ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Gee, troll, could it be the people asking staffers how the calls are running and finding they're running that way?

Yes, it could be. But is it? Where are the reports that that is happening? What citation do you have? Is there evidence for that claim, or is it just the voices in your head?

Could it be the polls that show massive disagreement with the current bill?

No, it couldn't:

The American public gives President Barack Obama a strong 67% approval rating for the way in which he is handling the government's efforts to pass an economic stimulus bill

Go back to your bridge.

Gee, Falze, for someone throwing troll-isms around, you sure don't have any answers. As they say, better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool...

What does Obama's approval ... (Below threshold)
STaylor:

What does Obama's approval rating have to do with anything. This post isn't about his approval rating it is about the Stim Bill. Is it at all possible that there are people who approve of the president and yet oppose this bill?

what a bunch of hysterical ... (Below threshold)

what a bunch of hysterical rantings...

1 - the Dems are going to pass the stimulus, with or without any GOP support. They have more than 50 votes, the GOP is unwilling to filibuster, and even if they did, the Senate Dems would simply get rid of the filibuster (they have the guts to do so unlike the GOP who let the Dems filibuster Bush's nominees).

2 - yeah, a bunch of people are calling to complain, whoopee, that's expected and nothing can be inferred from that other than there are some number of pissed off people calling to complain. And to the extent that the public as a whole is unhappy with aspects of the stimulus bill, the public wants a stimulus bill and the pols know that the rabid few are never enough to kick them out of office.

3 - what's this about paying off for generations? The only way that is going to happen is if the federal government started running a surplus and used the surplus to retire debt. Neither of which will ever happen; the spenders in Congress will ensure that there never is a surplus and even if there was, the tax cutters would insist on rebating the excess back to the taxpayers.

Hi, moron. Can I call you ... (Below threshold)

Hi, moron. Can I call you 'moron', troll? Thanks.

Here are the 'non-generic "handling"' numbers that make make your name fitting:

48% say more spending will make the economy worse. Only 35% percent say it will make it better.

12% of people approve of Congress right now. 54% say they're doing a poor job. Approval has fallen since details about the plan came out.

62% want more tax cuts in the bill. 14% want less.

Since the House voted, the generic ticket Republican has gone from trailing the generic Democrat by a significant margin to being a 'dead heat', only a one point margin.

This has nothing to do with generic support for Barry the Great, the single, solitary reading that trolls are using to claim support for this albatross on my grandkid's neck. The adults are talking about actual support for the actual bill for which there have been actual polls. Those polls show that people like it at 30% at best and over 40% don't like it. That number goes more negative every time they do a new poll.

Couple that with the first hand reporting right on this very site about people that have called congressional offices and asked about support vs. dissent.

Go back to humping your Obama doll under your bridge, moron, we're not buying your BS.

Sadly isn't this what the A... (Below threshold)
mag:

Sadly isn't this what the American people voted for in November???? They wanted Obama the leftist/socialist and the democrat majority. Whatever made anyone think they would listen to us?? I am sure they are laughing at all of us right now.

Well, elections have conseq... (Below threshold)
kevino:

Well, elections have consequences. The majority of Americans voted for Democrats: they want it all, they want it right now, and they want it free. Many of the principles that built this great country have been thrown away and replaced by a culture of lazy, immature narcissists. The important thing about the elections of 2006 and 2008 isn't who won. The important thing is the thinking (or lack of thinking) by the American people and their collective approach to the problems that face the country.

On economic matters, I'm pretty conservative because history has shown that those ideas actually work. But those ideas are not popular right now. OK. Based on history, I think that this economic program will fail - in dramatic fashion. I could be wrong, but I have confidence that I'm right. (For one thing, I've been on the planet a long time, and I've made moves that confused others that turned out to be 100% right.)

If Democrats will actually grow up enough to take responsibility for the catastrophe that takes place, that would be great. But I don't expect it to happen. This huge gamble (with other people's money) is being done because the American people have such a low pain threshold that many are in a panic. If the economy truly collapses, the American people won't be able to tolerate it for long, and they will hold Democrats responsible. And that is justice.

Here's an informal poll - w... (Below threshold)

Here's an informal poll - would you rather see the Republicans vote no on this albatross or walk out without voting to make a point about how they've been given essentially no input at all into the, what, doubling of our federal budget (once everything is factored in)?

Hi, moron. Can I call yo... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Hi, moron. Can I call you 'moron', troll?

Since you don't seem to have anything intelligent to say instead, go for it.

12% of people approve of Congress right now. 54% say they're doing a poor job.

Hmm, 48% approve of Dems in Congress, 31% approve of Reps. Not sure how you average that out to 12%, but I guess you're the non-moron, eh?

This has nothing to do with generic support for Barry the Great

That was not generic support, it was "for the way in which he is handling the government's efforts to pass an economic stimulus bill". Guess you have reading comprehension problems, too.

Couple that with the first hand reporting right on this very site about people that have called congressional offices and asked about support vs. dissent.

Oh, the first-hand reporting where an aide to Snow said the calls where supportive of her, but that report is rejected as bunk because it wasn't what you wanted to hear?

Go back to humping your Obama doll under your bridge, moron, we're not buying your BS.

Wow, I've never seen anyone become so instantly and violently defensive when simply asked for evidence supporting two claims offered without evidence. I guess being asked to base claims on facts really flusters you and throws off your game.

I agree that you're "not buying" something, but I think it's your meds. Run along and let the adults talk.

Brian FTW.... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Brian FTW.

Man, you don't know when to... (Below threshold)

Man, you don't know when to quit, moron.

12% - Rasmussen - front page.

That was not generic support, it was "for the way in which he is handling the government's efforts to pass an economic stimulus bill". Guess you have reading comprehension problems, too.

God, you're stupid. People with more than half a brain would understand that I didn't need to type "generic handling of the economic stimulus" instead of shorthanding "generic support". But, now I've said it. It's STILL not a reflection of their support for the bill itself, which is what we're talking about and which you're (unsuccessfully and foolishly) trying to hijack. Moron.

You've clearly not been reading this site or news sources regarding calls to Congress, go do it before you're any more wrong about that, moron.

Wow, I've never seen anyone become so instantly and violently defensive when simply asked for evidence supporting two claims offered without evidence.

Typical liberal bullspit. I simply called you a moron because you're a moron.

I guess being asked to base claims on facts really flusters you and throws off your game.

Yeah, right. Just ignore the fact that I instantly produced numerous examples of factual evidence to rebut your moronic argument, moron.

Run along and let the adults talk.

You haven't been right about anything you've said, yet, moron. But keep HOPE-ing.

So much for the bipartisans... (Below threshold)
Lyn:

So much for the bipartisanship that Obama was calling for. Who believed him anyway?

This new regime we have and the Democratic party are going all out to flush America down the toilet. Their stimulus plan is a fraud.

This one-party system and the charlatan-in-chief in the White House - democracy is over, people.

Our Republic is dying a ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Our Republic is dying a very ugly and painful death.

You're just now seeing that? Our Republic is tied to the Constitution, but few were bemoaning its rape with the Patriot Act. Why? Because few of us know all that much about the Constitution. We've been so intent on getting our guys in office based solely on whether they have an (R) or a (D) after their name that we stopped asking informed questions of them. Of course, you must be informed ask those type of questions.

Obush in 2012!

Clay: Quick! Name one per... (Below threshold)

Clay: Quick! Name one person's whose rights were violated by the PATRIOT Act!

(here's a hint, the ACLU hasn't found any - and they've been looking)

This new regime we have ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

This new regime we have and the Democratic party are going all out to flush America down the toilet. Their stimulus plan is a fraud.

To be fair, the Republicans are not squeaky clean. They left their principles in the dust a long time ago. How else could they have candidates like McCain or Dole or even Bush. Bush wasn't exactly maintaining fiscal responsibility, now was he? Until the GOP's return to the principles of limited government, free markets, individual rights, and brand integrity (i.e. making certain that the (R) behind the name means something), they will continue down the gray plumbing.

Man, you don't know when... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Man, you don't know when to quit, moron.
12% - Rasmussen - front page.

Is that next to where they say:

Democrats are still trusted more than Republicans to handle the economy by a 44% to 39% margin

Just ignore the fact that I instantly produced numerous examples of factual evidence

You produced nothing but invective and unrelated polls, nothing that the least bit indicates "the American people are calling the Capitol demanding that their representatives in the House and Senate vote no". If you couldn't answer my questions, you should have just kept quiet.

to rebut your moronic argument, moron.

Keep thinking that, while you and your pet unicorn bounce around on those pink clouds, and you dab the spittle off your chin.

Clay: Quick! Name one pe... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Clay: Quick! Name one person's whose rights were violated by the PATRIOT Act!

Are you friggin' serious? ARE YOU SERIOUS? It isn't enough that it was compromised? How pure of a document do you think the Founders wrought?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Had a Dem president pushed something as horrendous as the PA through, you'd be frothing at the mouth. The fact is, the document upon which this country was founded is compromised.

Amazing.

Personally I'm happy that t... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Personally I'm happy that the Republicans were frozen "out completely." You folks took your bat and ball and went home whining last week. When they act like children in a schoolyard the adults should just ignore them.

Why on earth should the Republicans be given a voice when a grand total of 3 in the entire Congress were willing to support the effort? I've never agreed with Obama wanting to reach out to the snakes on the right. All he'll get is bitten by them.

I don't generally care for Reid or Pelosi but on this one I say to the Republican members of congress f*** em and the horses they rode in on.I'm looking forward to 2010 and a 60+ majority in the Senate when we don't have to listen to anything they have to say.

In the last thirty years th... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

In the last thirty years there have been only two presidents that have lowered the National debt as percentage of GNP...Carter and Clinton..The large increases were under the Bush administrations 41 and 43 and Reagan.

What drove the deficits under Bush 43, who has increased the national debt from 5.7 trillion to 11 trillion were the Bush tax cuts on the rich which lowered national reveunes by a trillion as the government spent 900 billion in direct operations for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, another major costly intiative of Bush was the 2006 launch of medicare Part D which provides prescription drug coverage for seniors. Of course, recently there was the giving another trillion to the financial overlords of AIG and the commerical and investment banks, much of it to compensate for their huge, permanent multi-million dollar bonuses they were in danger of losing. Where would Hugh's 'trickle down theory' be if the stock market speculators couldn't get corporate welfare for their gigantic losses...and of course, not a boo from Wizbang until Obama inherits this mess.

Is that next to where th... (Below threshold)

Is that next to where they say:

Democrats are still trusted more than Republicans to handle the economy by a 44% to 39% margin

And this has WHAT, exactly, to do with the price of tea in China? The point (you remember what it is to have a point, right?) is that Congressional approval ratings suck and have FALLEN since the bill came out. You can try to redirect this any way you want, but I'm not buying it.

You produced nothing but invective and unrelated polls, nothing that the least bit indicates "the American people are calling the Capitol demanding that their representatives in the House and Senate vote no". If you couldn't answer my questions, you should have just kept quiet.

"unrelated"? Wow, you don't even know what YOU said, let alone what I said. Let me help you (they do that with "slow" people):

against the will of the American people

What evidence do you have for these claims?

I presented numerous poll results that DIRECTLY respond to your wish for evidence to show that the bill is not in keeping with the will of the American people.

As for the rest, I gave you at least one source (it's not hard to find) on calls. Clearly you failed to look at it.

"according to Senator Burr two senators are still negotiating but he doesn't know when they will vote, meaning that Reid does not have the votes. Burr said that out of very 10 phone calls coming 9.9 of them are against the bill."

You can keep this up if you want, you keep looking stupider and stupider. I for one and done with letting trolls spout nonsense or be taken seriously. Let's recap, because one of us has forgotten how this started because they keep trying to change the subject to one where they don't look like a moron. You asked for evidence of two specific items. I then gave you that evidence, directly in one instance and indirectly in the other. In the face of that you tried to change the subject. Sound about right?

Go ahead, pretend no one just handed you your rear and change the subject. This is fish in a barrel.

Clay: so you admit that you... (Below threshold)

Clay: so you admit that you aren't aware of a single person whose rights were compromised by the PATRIOT Act? Good. Glad to hear it. Next time remember: just because a Democrat tells you something that makes you afraid, it probably isn't true.

Clay: so you admit that ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Clay: so you admit that you aren't aware of a single person whose rights were compromised by the PATRIOT Act?

Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. But, is that the point? If somebody sticks a gun to my kid's head, should I delay my concern until the trigger is pulled?

BTW, I don't pay much attention to Democrats. But, Republicans are beginning to sound an awful lot like them.

"Democrats are still truste... (Below threshold)
apb:

"Democrats are still trusted more than Republicans to handle the economy by a 44% to 39% margin"

Suuure. Without even seeing the poll, I predict oversampling of Dems. Because the financial skill of Dems is limited to trudging out to their mailboxes to pick up their checks, I would agree these mindless proles would consider their Patrons as "trusted more."

"So much for the bipartisan... (Below threshold)
max:

"So much for the bipartisanship that Obama was calling for. Who believed him anyway?"

Obama tried, the Republicans blew him off because they care more about hurting the Democratic party than helping Americans.

The modern Republican party would gladly destroy the nation if it meant destroying the Democratic party.

Maybe there are, maybe t... (Below threshold)

Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. But, is that the point?

Well, since you make the statement that the PATRIOT Act "raped" the Constitution - yeah, it kind of IS the point that in all the years we've had it in place not a single person has come forward saying it infringed on their Constitutional rights at all. That sort of is EXACTLY the point I was making. Just because you or Nancy Pelosi say it "raped" the Constitution doesn't make it so.

Uhm. Can you admit that the... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Uhm. Can you admit that the Constitution was compromised by the PA? If not, why not? Because nobody was hurt? Ho important is the integrity of the document?

No, I can't admit that it w... (Below threshold)

No, I can't admit that it was. I don't see anything that goes against the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Sorry. Feel free to give me some examples, maybe I've forgotten some that would make me change my mind...all I remember Dems screaming about is that a judge could let the feds look at what books someone has checked out if it appears that person is a terrorist. Not bothered by that, sorry. What parts in particular "rape" the Constitution for you?

the Republicans blew him... (Below threshold)

the Republicans blew him off because they care more about hurting the Democratic party than helping Americans.

Max: would that be the "blowing off" when they weren't even invited to help write or comment on the bill?

"Bush tax cuts on the rich ... (Below threshold)
apb:

"Bush tax cuts on the rich which lowered national reveunes "

Sounds like the typical lib chimp with an aversion to econ 101. It's been well-documented that the 'cuts' actually smoothed out the curve between the middle class and the rich, and the treasury had record tax revenues.

The ones that came out ahead (again) are the parasitic sponges at the bottom 40% of earners that PAY NO INCOME TAX, and ARE A NET DRAIN ON THOSE THAT DO.

Watch it folksBria... (Below threshold)
retired miilitary:

Watch it folks

Brian will trot out his liberl mime about spending $2 trillion for the Iraq war (which if you do some research will show that that was the entire budget for the DOD over a 5 year period).

So, in other words, you'd s... (Below threshold)
Clay:

So, in other words, you'd say that just a little penetration doesn't necessarily mean rape? So, let's just say then that the Constution, our national scripture - the document that defines us as a nation, is just a little screwed because of the PA. Does that fix it for you?

I just want to be the kind of American that is outraged by any infringement on any of my unalienable rights. I am suspicious of any elected official, no, any government official who is looking to increase his power as such by minimizing my rights as a citizen. By the people and for the people. I don't own a printing press, but I understand the value of its free operation.

apb: actually, the generic ... (Below threshold)

apb: actually, the generic economic support numbers are still higher for Dems, for the moment, 44% to 39% for Repubs per Rasmussen. However, if you track the polling:

"but their advantage on the issue has been slipping steadily since November...

In the first poll conducted after Barack Obama was elected president, the Democrats held a 15-point lead over the GOP on economic issues. In December, their lead dropped to 12 points. In January, prior to Obama's inauguration, Democrats held a nine-point lead on the issue."

Now they're down to 5%.

So, in other words, you'... (Below threshold)

So, in other words, you'd say that just a little penetration doesn't necessarily mean rape?

No, in the same words, what particular parts bother you?

"I just want to be the kind... (Below threshold)
apb:

"I just want to be the kind of American that is outraged by any infringement on any of my unalienable rights."

Sorry, Clay - you haven't defined which of your rights were shredded out from under you. Not like the clearly-defined 2nd Amendment issues in D.C. and Chicago.

You're right on the figures... (Below threshold)
apb:

You're right on the figures, Falze -

The sad part is the number of folks that be-LIEVE (hallelujah!) that the Dems are better at economics ...well, one was I guess - but that was back in JFK's time when he cut taxes...

It never ceases to amaze me... (Below threshold)
NJ Liberal:

It never ceases to amaze me that after 8 years of unrestrained spending by Bush on 2 never-ending wars that Republicans are all of a sudden 'fiscally responsible'. This is a new level of hypocrisy.

This is a new level of h... (Below threshold)

This is a new level of hypocrisy.

Just imagine how conservatives feel. You, at least, presumably never trusted them to be fiscally responsible. Before you extrapolate to all Republicans or conservatives, though, look at how badly GOP congressional support slipped in 2006 and 2008 amongst conservatives - pretty convincing evidence that they were rejected by conservatives because of their spending.

apb: don't forget that clin... (Below threshold)

apb: don't forget that clinton sort of saw the light, also. after admitting that he raised taxes too much he let them be lowered, resulting in a surge in the economy.

Max -Why should th... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Max -

Why should the Republicans give any sort of cover for the Democrats? The Dems have bought the issue now, and whatever happens will be THEIR responsibility.

Completely and totally.

You know what really worries me, though? That there's no economists in Congress, and way too many lawyers. Lawyers seem to see everything as mutable, there's nothing that can't be negotiated or changed with just a change of wording in a document somewhere. Words and phrasings are far more real to them than houses and electrical grids and bridges and assembly lines.

Now we get to see just what the result is of having a Democratic lawyer for a President, in addition to the 43 senators and the 145 representatives who are lawyers.

(Insert favorite lawyer joke here...)

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/powersearch.htm is the link to a database where you can find their occupations BC - Before Congress.

nj liberal - "This is a... (Below threshold)
Marc:

nj liberal - "This is a new level of hypocrisy."

Gee, you could have left off the "liberal" part of the moniker.

By completely ignoring the last two years of dem "leadership" in both houses of Congress, not to mention any notation of Barack Hussein Obama's yes vote on the disastrous TARP I. Or the fact EVERY Bush budget proposal was larded up beyond recognition by both dems and reps in the last 8 years.

It was DAMN obvious which side of the aisle you reside on.

Falze - To add to your poll... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Falze - To add to your poll citations, and to further debase brian, take a look at the latest ATI-News/Zogby results:

Question #1: ATI-News/Zogby asked likely voters, "Some people say that the nearly one trillion dollars in debt and subsequent interest incurred by the stimulus bill during an economic downturn will make the recovery hard to achieve. Do you agree or disagree?"

Overall, 53 percent of Americans agree that the Obama stimulus bill will actually hinder economic recovery; while only 31 percent disagree (16 percent are not sure). Fifty-six percent of Independent voters also agree, while only 27 percent disagree (17 percent are not sure). A staggering 88 percent of Republicans agree and just 6 percent disagree (another 6 percent are not sure).
Note the independants, who broke emphatically for obama in the election but aren't so much in favor of Porkoplis.
Question #2: ATI-News/Zogby asked voters, "Some Republicans say the Obama stimulus package spends too much and stimulates too little. Do you agree or disagree?"
Fifty-seven percent of Independent voters agree that Obama's stimulus package spends too much and does little to stimulate the economy; while just 31 percent of Independents disagree (12 percent are not sure). Eighty-nine percent of Republicans also agree, while only 5 percent disagree (6 percent are not sure).
Gee, look at all those "indy's agreeing with the reps position.
He's already back under his... (Below threshold)

He's already back under his bridge where he belongs, but it's good to see that Zogby's numbers agree with Rasmussen's.

I for one, hold little opin... (Below threshold)
retired miilitary:

I for one, hold little opinion in polls.

For example.

Who was polled? how many self described democrats, republicans, independants.

A poll which has 60% democrats responding would mean next to nothing. The same way a poll with 60% republicans responding would mean next to nothing.

What exactly was the question asked and in what order can determine the outcome.

How are the results reported is a factor.

Basically the adage of asking a statisctian what do a bunch of numbers mean and getting an answer of "What do you want them to mean" applies.

Throw that in with the biased news media as well biased polling organizations and the results are pretty much meaningless.

BTW I looked for demographics on some of the polls talked about here IE the gallup poll mentioned. I could find nothing other than the number of people asked. Nothing about age, sex, religious or nonreligous preference, political leanings, education level or anything.

Way to go Big O! President... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

Way to go Big O! President Obama hits one out of the park his first time up at bat! Hi-5! Woohoo!

And here are the signs of frostbite for those feeling "frozen out:"

http://www.healthscout.com/ency/68/453/main.html

Sorry, Clay - you haven'... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Sorry, Clay - you haven't defined which of your rights were shredded out from under you.

Freedom of association: To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.

Freedom of information: The government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public-records requests. "Sensitive" information has been removed from government Web sites.

Freedom of speech: The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

Right to legal representation: The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Freedom from unreasonable searches: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

Right to a speedy and public trial: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

Right to liberty: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. "Enemy combatants" have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.

Adrian -Obama now ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Adrian -

Obama now owns this problem. If this 'solution' works the way its presented, then he's golden, and the Democrats will be untouchable.

If it doesn't - Obama's going to be ranked right around Warren G. Harding, and the Democrats aren't going to be trusted for a generation or more.

They've bet everything on one roll of the dice, and they've already demonstrated they haven't a clue on the rules of the game. (Not that anyone does, in all honesty - the rules keep varying too fast to keep up...)

The dice have been thrown. It's too late for them to back out.

Falze, you're such a fool. ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Falze, you're such a fool. Spouting about how support for Democrats has fallen, even though their approval is still currently ahead of Republicans'. Claiming that it's OK to violate the Constitution, as long as the government doesn't tell you whose rights they violated, and the ACLU can't track them down. Crying about Obama going against "the will of the people", when those same polls show the will of the people for the last several years has been to get out of Iraq.

All of your frothing and yapping all because I dared asked Kim for evidence for claims for which she provided none. If you had simply responded to my questions (one of which you have, one of which you haven't), this would have been a much more pleasant thread.

Wipe your mouth and look into anger management classes.

"Why should the Republicans... (Below threshold)
max:

"Why should the Republicans give any sort of cover for the Democrats? The Dems have bought the issue now, and whatever happens will be THEIR responsibility. "

Exactly, JL. That's at least how Congressional Republicans seem to view the issue. It first goes through the party-politics filter. That's the source of my condemnation. And, for the record, I don't believe that it is a problem reserved only for Republicans.

Here's one for you (l)awyer... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Here's one for you (l)awyer marc et al. Doesn't seem to jibe with your independents numbers:

PRINCETON, NJ -- Fifty-two percent of Americans interviewed Wednesday night are in favor of Congress passing a roughly $800 billion economic stimulus package; 38% are opposed. These figures are nearly identical to those measured in Gallup polling last week, right before passage of the bill in the U.S. House of Representatives, and are also in line with public support in early January.

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According to the new Feb. 4 USA Today/Gallup poll, 70% of Democrats nationwide favor the plan and 18% oppose it. Among Republicans, 24% are in favor and 72% are opposed -- nearly the reverse of the Democrats' position. Political independents fall somewhat closer to Democrats than to Republicans in their views, with 55% in favor.

Perhaps in response to the heightened partisan debate in Congress recently over the merits of President Obama's approach to the stimulus plan, partisan differences in Americans' support have expanded slightly over the past month. This is particularly clear in terms of a slight decline in the percentage of Republicans favoring the plan, from 34% in early January to 24% today. Support among Democrats, however, has increased slightly.

What's with the living by n... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

What's with the living by numbers JFO seems to do. He probably sees what's the most popular shirt to wear before he gets dressed. Typical troll/liberal cannot stand on his own.

What never ceases to amaze me is the lefties do not know how government works. One leftnut said "after 8 years of Bush spending", etc. The executive branch never has and never will have any appropriational power. The lies with congress. War also. So this is the third year of democratic leadership and lookwhat they have done. Crashed the economy and the war goes on. You lefties own it now. ww

NJ Liberal (AKA ANgellite)<... (Below threshold)
retired military:

NJ Liberal (AKA ANgellite)
"It never ceases to amaze me that after 8 years of unrestrained spending by Bush on 2 never-ending wars that Republicans are all of a sudden 'fiscally responsible'. This is a new level of hypocrisy."
-------------------

Now other liberals please take note. Here we have an example of a typical liberal spouting nonsense talking points when they have no clue what the truth is.

1. "It never ceases to amaze me that after 8 years of unrestrained spending by Bush "

Totally ignoring all spending bills start in the HOUSE and dems had control of the house for 2 of those years.

b. "on 2 never-ending wars that Republicans are all of a sudden 'fiscally responsible''

Now first lets look at WW2. That is over you say. But hey why do we still have soldiers in Germany? How many soldiers died in the Cold war?

Next up, Korea. Well a ceasefire has been signed but we have had thousands of violations and numerous deaths there. Plus we still have soldiers stationed there.

Next up Bosnia. AH yes. CLinton promised to have the soldiers home by Christmas. We still have soldiers there and some deaths as well.

Now putting A. and B. Together lets look at the total costs of Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf
See bottom of page 10
$657 billion for Iraq (76%),
! $173 billion almost all for Afghanistan

Total for those 2 wars that NJ Liberal mentioned was $830 billion

And from FY07-FY09 that was Done VIA A DEMOCRATIC RULED HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.


Now how much was the House bill that got passed - $819 Billion

And The Senate Bill was $838 Billion

Yet NJ LIberal mentions that he is suprised at republicans wanting to be FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE.

"This is a new level of hypocrisy."


Damn Well at least that statement I couldnt agree with at least when talking about liberals who want to preach fiscal responsibility, never ending wars and fiscal responsibility.

Oh I forgot.NJ Lib... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Oh I forgot.

NJ Liberal called $817 billion spent over 6 years and having to get approved by 6 different congresses (2 of which have been led BY DEMOCRATS) as "UNRESTRAINED SPENDING"

I wonder what he calls $800 billion that is in ONE BILL which went from start to finish in UNDER 3 WEEKS.

"This is a new level of hypocrisy."

Yes it is, NJ Liberal, YES IT IS


Totally ignoring all spe... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Totally ignoring all spending bills start in the HOUSE and dems had control of the house for 2 of those years.

Maybe. But, W didn't use that ol' veto stamp very often, now did he?

False -You're righ... (Below threshold)
apb:

False -

You're right about Clinton facing the music. The Gingrich-led (R)'s helped there (why the heck did the R's lose their way?) Thanks for the reminder!

NJ liberal - whine away about war-time spending, but don't forget the Congress-pigs attachment of 25% pork to the war appropriations bills.

I'm glad to see the Dems own this one. I'm happier that there were only 3 RINOs that supported this pig...

Totally ignoring all spe... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Totally ignoring all spending bills start in the HOUSE and dems had control of the house for 2 of those years.

True, but it was Bush who requested those budgets, and then the Republican propaganda machine went into overdrive calling Dems "defeatocrats", "terrorist sympathizers", etc. for even suggesting that they might not give him everything he asked for. I fault the Dems for rolling over so easily, but those were Bush's budgets, not the Dems'.

"Maybe. But, W didn't use t... (Below threshold)
retired military:

"Maybe. But, W didn't use that ol' veto stamp very often, now did he?"

Clay, have you not noticed the numerous people here who have shouted to the rooftops because he didnt?

I guess not.

JFO - "Here's one for y... (Below threshold)
Marc:

JFO - "Here's one for you (l)awyer marc et al. Doesn't seem to jibe with your independents numbers:"

Nice try jerkwad, your poll predates that of the other two cited by at least 4 days.

GEE, public opinion couldn't have swung away from support now could it? Not in your fairytale world.

brian - "I fault the De... (Below threshold)
Marc:

brian - "I fault the Dems for rolling over so easily, but those were Bush's budgets, not the Dems'"

Some "rolling over." Both parties in the House porked-up all the budgets beyond what was offered.

If you wanna claim Bush rolled over, I'd buy it, he did.

But your assertion is nothing more that a shiny object.

Wee Willie, I'm glad to see... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Wee Willie, I'm glad to see your new talking point that the Democrats are "in their third year" of control of Congress, rather than "they've controlled Congress for 3 years." It makes you seem so much smarter, now that we all know you can read a calendar after all, once your error is pointed out.
Jeez, don't you ever get embarrased?

Clay, have you not notic... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Clay, have you not noticed the numerous people here who have shouted to the rooftops because he didnt?

Yes. I have. I'm just saying that if we don't start looking at how we need to do things differently, the Republicans will lose again. All of this defending Bush is getting old. There were some things he did right, but many things he screwed up.

Me? I'd like the GOP to be successful, but not as the neocon version that's overrun them in the last decade or so. Until the GOP returns to the Old Right values of individual rights, limited government, and fiscal responsibility - a stark contrast of the socialist agenda of the liberals and neocons - then I'll remain unaffiliated.

Not that anyone will notice.

Max -"And, for ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Max -

"And, for the record, I don't believe that it is a problem reserved only for Republicans."

Both sides have been playing the "Well, fuck you if you don't captulate on every issue" meme now for about three decades.

But THEY won't 'feel our pain', no matter how much they might say so.

If you wanna claim Bush ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

If you wanna claim Bush rolled over, I'd buy it, he did.
But your assertion is nothing more that a shiny object.

If by "shiny object" you mean "the truth", then we're agreed.

Clay:Unless I miss m... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Clay:
Unless I miss my guess, you're a Ron Paul kind of guy, more Libertarian than Republican really, just want to work, live free, and have the government stay the hell out of your business, am I right?
As a liberal, I can respect that. You are absolutely right about the Patriot Act, and Falze is absolutely wrong.
Just because the Act may not have been abused yet doesn't mean it won't be. People who spring to a knee-jerk defense of this monstrosity should imagine this scenario:
Suppose Obama really is as eeevil as you think he is. Do you want him to sic the FBI on you when you check out Coulter's latest book at the local library? Do you suppose the Messiah can't find out you've been badmouthing him on Wizbang and declare you an "enemy combatant?"
Do you want Obama's libislamunistofascist minions looking at your bank records, etc., because you belong to some organization or the other that The One fears?
Just because Bush refrained from abusing the Patriot Act (as far as we know) doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Brucy, what does your comme... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Brucy, what does your comment have to do with the subject of democratic control? You seem to just gloss that part over. The dems are firmly entrenched in the economic problems they caused.

Also, Brucy, conservatives have no self esteem issues. You cannot effect me with your juvenile barbs. I am forever hopeful that the trolls on this site would engage properly instead of following the democratic rule: Demean, dismiss and defame. ww

It doesn't, Willie. I was a... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

It doesn't, Willie. I was addressing Clay about his argument with Falze re the Patriot Act. He may not appreciate me agreeing with him on that one point, but whatever.
I didn't know you were the new comments editor.
As for conservatives not having self-esteem issues, maybe some should. I notice that one in particular has an issue with saying, "I was wrong."

"What drove the deficits un... (Below threshold)
John S:

"What drove the deficits under Bush 43, who has increased the national debt from 5.7 trillion to 11 trillion were the Bush tax cuts on the rich..."

Yeh, yeh, yeh... Obama added $3 trillion to the national debt yesterday. He's been proposing a trillion dollars a week so far. How long do you suppose he can do that before we're spending $45,000 for a cup of Starbucks. Hint: it'll be before the 2010 midterm elections.

You know I really detest th... (Below threshold)
Joe:

You know I really detest the lying going on in congress I would really like to believe that this money is going to get spent responsibly, but on who? I would really like to know if my 401k can go from -4.8% earning to something positive. Thank you all you kings and queens that love to play with the middle class like a little chess board, fuck all of you, for crying out load quit playing your fucking games. STOP IT NOW! I suppose that nobody will ever work together in the government it always this me against you mentality, well you know what? NONE of you Congressmen or Senators or even the President have money to worry about, so why not draw it out, why not just take all the tax money that is illegally gotten from the work of the middle class? You know those people that WORK for their money and have taken away? I know this message will NEVER reach anybody who can actually do anything about it, because well only people with money get on CNN and the president is too busy to talk to people one on one. I have attempted to send an e-mail and all I ever get is a auto-response saying that he is very busy this and that and he can't answer all the e-mails.
I really want to ignore this and stick my head in the sand, but the federal Reserve needs to be bombed and burned to the ground, because they are the only ones making money. Doesn't anybody realize that the Fed is a PRIVATE corperation, run by bankers, or is the whole world stupid!?

Doesn't anybody realize ... (Below threshold)
Clay:

Doesn't anybody realize that the Fed is a PRIVATE corperation, run by bankers, or is the whole world stupid!?

Preach it, brother. I'm with you. The Creature From Jeckyll Island belongs in the personal library of every American who truly cares about this country (regardless of political party affiliation). Perhaps after rousing the people of this nation from their slumber, it will be the catalyst to drive a stake through the heart of America's most pernicious monster.

The stimulus bill is VERY d... (Below threshold)
DaProfessor:

The stimulus bill is VERY detailed and VERY lengthy. Whining about it not being spelled out in print so far is absurdly stupid. It will take a week or two to get it printed and distributed.

As far as the right-wing extremist Republicans being "fozen out" or left out, that too is absurd. they chose to decline involvement or to push their old and faulty ideas of "trickle - down tax cuts" for the wealthy among us. May they shove their old and failed ideas where the sun does not shine!




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