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Criticizing the Messiah may get you arrested

Don't like the stimulus? Disagree with Obama's position on abortion? Apparently, if you make a political statement against the Obamamessiah, our Dear Leader, it just may get you arrested.

An Oklahoma City police officer wrongly pulled over a man last week and confiscated an anti-President Barack Obama sign the man had on his vehicle.

The officer misinterpreted the sign as threatening, said Capt. Steve McCool, of the Oklahoma City Police Department, and took the sign, which read "Abort Obama, not the unborn."

Chip Harrison said he was driving to work when a police car followed him for several miles and then signaled for him to pull over.

''I pulled over, knowing I hadn't done anything wrong," Harrison said in a recent phone interview.

When the officer asked Harrison if he knew why he had been pulled over, Harrison said he did not.

''They said, 'It's because of the sign in your window,'" Harrison said.

''It's not meant to be a threat, it's a statement about abortion," Harrison said.

He said he disagrees with the president's position on abortion.

''I asked the officer, 'Do you know what abort means?'" Harrison said. "He said, 'Yeah, it means to kill.' I said, 'No, it means to remove or terminate.'"

Harrison said his sign was to be interpreted as saying something like: Remove Obama from office, not unborn babies from the womb.

The officers confiscated Harrison's sign and gave him a slip of paper that stated he was part of an investigation.

... But his run-in with the law wasn't over yet.

''The Secret Service called and said they were at my house," Harrison said.

After talking to his attorney, Harrison went home where he met the Secret Service.

''When I was on my way there, the Secret Service called me and said they weren't going to ransack my house or anything ... they just wanted to (walk through the house) and make sure I wasn't a part of any hate groups."

Harrison said he invited the Secret Service agents into the house and they were "very cordial."

''We walked through the house and my wife and 2-year-old were in the house," Harrison said.

He said they interviewed him for about 30 minutes and then left, not finding any evidence Harrison was a threat to the president.

OK, OK... they didn't actually arrest him. They just told him he would be fined, investigated, and reported to the Secret Service. Putting a sign on your car that's critical of Obama's position on abortion apparently makes you a threat to the President these days. Strangely enough, actual calls for death to President Bush by rabid liberal hippies in anti-war rallies for the past eight years didn't see all of those people investigated by the Secret Service. But this is the newer, hopier, changier President. And dissent is no longer patriotic.

I'm a little curious what it means for the future of free speech if critical (and perhaps even somewhat inflammatory) speech against the President means you'll get investigated by the Secret Service. That's the problem with all this wailing from the Left on "hate speech". THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HATE SPEECH -- THIS IS THE UNITED STATES! As long as you are not making a direct threat against someone, you can say anything you damn well please. The First Amendment doesn't protect speech as long as it's pretty and pleasant and polite. It protects all speech, even if it's rude, or demeaning, or inflammatory, or even -- GASP!! -- hateful.

But I guess that only holds true for liberals when they're the ones speaking out, and not for conservatives. Free speech? That's soo 2008.

Hat Tip: Michelle Malkin; also on a tip from Whit Bass.


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Comments (68)

As much as I'd love to remo... (Below threshold)

As much as I'd love to remove Obama from office, I wouldn't use the word abort. That really is pushing the limit and asking for trouble.
http://www.rightklik.net/

If the word "abort" doesn't... (Below threshold)

If the word "abort" doesn't mean kill when applied to an unborn child, how can it mean kill when applied to an adult?

Darned lib logic.

So hard to translate into the common sense that the rest of us have.

Could you write something d... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Could you write something dumber than this trash? I doubt it.

Or were you the one that we... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Or were you the one that went all ga ga about the toilets being moved when Obama spoke in Portland during the campaign? If so, you tied yourself.

I live in OKC and I may sta... (Below threshold)

I live in OKC and I may start posting a sign that says "Abort OKC Cop pullovers - not the 1st Admendment"

Sounds like the overzealous... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Sounds like the overzealous officer needs a dictionary, and the Secret Service did their jobs. Much ado about nothing.

Do not forget, OKC was the ... (Below threshold)
Jeff:

Do not forget, OKC was the Police Department that raided Block Bluster video stores and demanded that they release the names of people that had rented the movie "The Tim Drum". An Oklahoma judge had ruled that the movie contained child pornography. So based on that ruling, the OKC PD took action and raided video stores without warrants.

"Could you write somethi... (Below threshold)

"Could you write something dumber than this trash? I doubt it."

You're right, JFO. Your trash comment was pretty dumb, and there's a good chance nobody else will say anything dumber. However, you continue to outdo yourself every time, which is quite an accomplishment.

It's ridiculous for someone to get pulled over and investigated for a bumper sticker, especially this one. Common sense isn't used very often these days.

Two points...JFO a... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

Two points...

JFO again earns his status as top, inarticulate moron.

And the problem in this story is the OKC cop not the Secret Service or Obama. There's TONS of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama but broadbrush, contrived ones only serve to dampen the legitimate ones.

The police officer was clea... (Below threshold)
James H:

The police officer was clearly in the wrong, although I'm somewhat less certain about the Secret Service's actions here. On the one hand, I can see a very, very strong argument that the Secret Service's visit was coercive and therefore transgressed on the individual's freedom of speech.

On the other hand, I think the Secret Service would be accused of direliction if somebody with an "abort Obama" sign attempted to assasinate the president, and te Secret Service failed to act when local police had spotted said person two to three years previous ...

Apparently (correctly) crti... (Below threshold)
JFO:

Apparently (correctly) crticizing 'The Fiano" gets the resident wingnuts all worked up. Take a valium blogo.

James H -If the po... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

James H -

If the police notified the Secret Service, I believe they have to check it out - primarily for the reason you cite. CYA isn't unknown to government agencies, after all!

JFO, What you wrot... (Below threshold)
Chip:

JFO,

What you wrote was not criticism, it was downright rude and you know it, if you don't like what's being written here, don't read, no one is forcing you to comment or read anything here.

Can anyone imagine what the headlines would have read had this been done while President Bush were in office, I know you lefty retards can't but the rest of us would have seen references to Nazis in papers and blog posts all across the country.

What anti-Obamistas need to... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

What anti-Obamistas need to do is begin expressing themselves in ways that won't get them thrown in the new Obama Administration Detention Camps®. For instance, write a play or book about the life of animals on farm when you're really talking about life under the oppressive Obama Regime. Or perhaps, don some black leotards and express your anger through interpretative dance.

The Instapundit references ... (Below threshold)
kevino:

The Instapundit references a "study" about hate speech on talk radio by the UCLA Chicano studies research center, and he calls out a comment:

One of the most remarkable aspects of the paper's position in my view is that it describes vigorous disagreement, mockery, and condemnation of government policy and leaders as hate speech. One might ask whether much of the left's political discourse over the past eight years doesn't fall within this category, but, regardless, once political criticism of those in power is defined as hate speech, what's left of the First Amendment?

The answer is, of course, hate speech becomes anything the Left disagrees with, and the First Amendment becomes trash.

As a Libertarian I've participated in protests against Republicans and Democrats. Protesting or attacking Republican positions is fun because I have always enjoyed the intelligent, adult discussions that followed. Protesting Democrats is another matter: I've been threatened, screamed at, had property (cars) vandalized, and twice had leaders of the party attempt to have my associates and I removed by the police.

I would be more inclined to vote for Democrats if they stopped behaving like fascists.

What anti-Obamista... (Below threshold)
What anti-Obamistas need to do is begin expressing themselves in ways that won't get them thrown in the new Obama Administration Detention Camps®. For instance, write a play or book about the life of animals on farm when you're really talking about life under the oppressive Obama Regime. Or perhaps, don some black leotards and express your anger through interpretative dance.

The problem with this idea is that the market for crappy political art has been pretty much sewn up by the left.

I suppose we could build some giant, paper-mache' puppet heads and protest, but, alas, unlike the left wing protest mobs, conservatives have jobs and lives.

"Apparently (correctly) ... (Below threshold)

"Apparently (correctly) crticizing 'The Fiano" gets the resident wingnuts all worked up. Take a valium blogo."

LOL! Once again, JFO, we're laughing at you, not getting worked up. What's apparent is you can't take what you dish out. You might want to take your own advice and take whatever meds you're on, though.

One qualifier on my first comment. I do think the Secret Service acted appropriately because they have to take any potential threat seriously, but the Oklahoma City police officer's actions were way over the top.

JFO does not know how to be... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JFO does not know how to be civil. He is always rude and particularly with the women authors. Problems there I suspect. ww

Why had nobody ever objecte... (Below threshold)
The article in the Daily Ok... (Below threshold)

The article in the Daily Oklahoman that was linked by Drudge this morning (it has since been updated to include a special NewsOK video report that mentions the Drudge link, and has been slightly re-written) clearly quotes the OKC police captain saying that the officer wrongly pulled over Harrison and confiscated his sign.

JLawson is also correct: the Secret Service cannot ignore a call from police. They have to check it out. From the news report, the SS agents seemed to be polite and obviously concluded that Harrison posed no threat.

I'm sure that Chip Harrison was probably sweating bullets during this whole ordeal, and the city certainly owes him an apology; but nothing, I believe, beyond that.

There's no trend here, just an overzealous officer (whom we know nothing about) who made a bad decision. End of story.

Even the famous exception o... (Below threshold)
mojo:

Even the famous exception of "yelling fire in a crowded theater" has it's limits. Doing so is perfectly legal if there is in fact a fire.

Even though just as many people will in all likelihood be trampled to death in both scenarios. Truth counts.

Korla,There were a... (Below threshold)

Korla,

There were also "Abort Palin" stickers, t-shirts, and graffiti during the 2008 election.

Did anybody ever get this i... (Below threshold)

Did anybody ever get this interpretation, or am I just imagining it?:

Tom Cruise's nazi movie Valkyrie. The moral, I take it, is that it is perfectly OK, and that you would in fact be a true patriot, if you were to assassinate the leader (Hitler) of a country (Germany) when you realize that he is evil, and is waging an "illegal war."

Was this just one in a long line of assassination fantasy films? Or is it all just a funny coincidence?

JFO - "Could you write ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

JFO - "Could you write something dumber than this trash? I doubt it."

A random selection, and direct quotes of any of your comments at Wizbang most assuredly would do it.

lawyer marcCheck t... (Below threshold)
JFO:

lawyer marc

Check the pronoun out idiot. Oh, I'll tell you. It is: "you" in "could you write anything dumber."

When you try to be a smart ass at least get it right, fool. It makes you (for your sake I'm referring now to you, i.e. to lawyer marc), well, a dumbass smartass. Now quit pretending to be a pretend lawyer.

Evidently it was the police... (Below threshold)
OLDPUPPYMAX:

Evidently it was the police who called the Secret Service? It's frightening enough that the SS (secret service, that is) would respond to such a ludicrous situation. But to actually want to "walk through" the guys house? I know it's easy for me to say it, but I think I would have suggested the SS take a flying leap at a rolling donut.

So, when a comm officer tel... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

So, when a comm officer tells a mission flight to "Abort, Abort, Abort", he's really telling them to 'Kill, Kill, Kill'?


Morons.

Exactly DJ. Typical hysteri... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Exactly DJ. Typical hysterical over-reaching little facists that can't wait to stifle speech. ww

Korla,"Tom Cruise'... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Korla,

"Tom Cruise's nazi movie Valkyrie. The moral, I take it, is that it is perfectly OK, and that you would in fact be a true patriot, if you were to assassinate the leader (Hitler) of a country (Germany) when you realize that he is evil, and is waging an "illegal war.""

The moral of the story is that even though Adolf Hitler--the mass murdering sociopath and ultra-nationalist dictator--had immense control and power in Germany, some Germans stilled tried to get rid of his criminal ass. And they came pretty close in many cases, but not close enough. And then they got executed. The point is that not all Germans sat back and did nothing, despite the fact that millions of them were either A) caught up in Hitler's fanaticism or B) scared to death of getting put to death by the Nazis.

Your transparent comparison to recent events is pretty ridiculous, if you ask me. I know that you are trying to make a comment, but please quit while you're behind. Asserting the idea that this movie was somehow about Bush is not getting you anywhere. Maybe some will take it that way, but they are historically ignorant fools. The Bush-Hitler comparison is inane at best.

Sorry, but the poorly reasoned historical comparisons are getting a little old...

While the officer's respons... (Below threshold)
Brian:

While the officer's response was silly, it's also silly to try to claim that "abort" didn't mean "kill" in that context. If the word "abort" means kill when applied to an unborn child, how can it not mean kill when applied to an adult? Darned Republican logic.

THIS IS THE UNITED STATES! As long as you are not making a direct threat against someone, you can say anything you damn well please. The First Amendment doesn't protect speech as long as it's pretty and pleasant and polite. It protects all speech

While not directly applicable in this case, it's amusing to note Cassy's lack of understanding about the First Amendment, her belief that it's absolute, and her failure to recognize that there are in fact are limits on it (yelling "fire" in a crowded theater being one well-known example).

So then I guess abortion is... (Below threshold)
max:

So then I guess abortion is not killing babies. Thanks for the clarification, DJ.

Cassie:"But I gues... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Cassie:

"But I guess that only holds true for liberals when they're the ones speaking out, and not for conservatives. Free speech? That's soo 2008."

Bullshit. The right to dissent is everyone's right, and is something that should be guarded vigorously, from both a conservative and liberal point of view.

I am all for conservatives who disagree with Obama to voice their opinions and dissent. That's how things are supposed to work.

Cassie, I know that it's your stock and trade on here to pin your conservative leanings against anything and everything "liberal," but sometimes I think you should cool off a bit before posting. Why always so reactionary?

In this case, I agree with others on here who think that the police officer screwed up, but that the SS did what they were supposed to do. Of course they had to look into the issue, since they were called. This does not mean that a massive police state is being created.

So, when a comm officer ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

So, when a comm officer tells a mission flight to "Abort, Abort, Abort", he's really telling them to 'Kill, Kill, Kill'?

Geez, DJ, did you ever notice that some words have different meanings in different contexts?

In this situation, the "not the unborn" part of the sign made it clear that the context of "abort" meant "kill" (unless you're going to argue that aborting the unborn is not killing them).

Even so, in your context "abort" means "terminate". Do you really think "Terminate Obama" would have been less provocative than "Abort Obama"?

All the Abort Palin, Assass... (Below threshold)

All the Abort Palin, Assassinate Cheney, etc. signs, tee shirts and comments we saw and heard over the past eight years, and the OKC police decide to pull this guy over for an abort Obama sign? That is ridiculous beyond belief. I know the SS has to investigate reported threats, but do they not get to ask what the threat consists of before going into a private citizen's house and scaring his wife and two year old kid? Maybe not. The CYA aspect does make sense on their part.

I can't imagine that a SS agent driving behind this guy would have pulled him over and done a walk through in his house based on that sign though. I'll bet the SS agents would have been laughing their heads off at the OKC police for reporting this, if not for the fact it wasted their time and resources. Just think of all the signs, tee shirts and comments the SS have seen and heard over the past eight years aimed at Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Palin, etc. They surely had to be shaking their heads when they got assigned to investigate this one.

Bad link above: <a href="ht... (Below threshold)
Brian:

Bad link above: terminate

All the Abort Palin, Ass... (Below threshold)
Brian:

All the Abort Palin, Assassinate Cheney, etc. signs, tee shirts and comments we saw and heard over the past eight years, and the OKC police decide to pull this guy over for an abort Obama sign? That is ridiculous beyond belief.

I agree. As were this, this, this, and this.

Typical DJ. Show up, say so... (Below threshold)
max:

Typical DJ. Show up, say something idiotic, and disappear.
depp=true
noitiz=You post something idiotic and disappear.

>Your transparent compariso... (Below threshold)

>Your transparent comparison to recent events is pretty ridiculous, if you ask me. I know that you are trying to make a comment, but please quit while you're behind. Asserting the idea that this movie was somehow about Bush is not getting you anywhere. Maybe some will take it that way, but they are historically ignorant fools. The Bush-Hitler comparison is inane at best.

Hey, I think it's inane, too. But that's the exact type of comparison the Bush Derangement Syndrome sufferers made all the time. "Bush is Hitler! Bush is Hitler!" That's all we heard for 8 years. Why would you discount the idea that anti-war Hollywood Scientologist nutjob couch-jumper bigtooth boy was making that analogy?

It's not like the attempted assassins were not high-ranking nazis (in the real world) but noble Germans who suddenly realized how evil the war was. They knew the war was not going well and wanted to negotiate a surrender with England and the U.S. before the Russians could kick their asses under less favorable terms.

But this movie, and its promotional materials, proclaimed that "Some Saw Evil... A Few Dared to Stop It," with the takeaway message that "treason is patriotic."

With all the other anti-Bush films, not to mention outright Bush assassination fantasy movies, books, etc, what makes this film so immune from such interpretation?

BrianAll your exampl... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

Brian
All your examples are people breaking the law. The display of profanities on sign is illegal in many places under any context. Unlawful demonstration is unlawful regardless of it being against a Republican or Democrat.

Same applies to what is legal or legit. If it is legal and/or legit to have a sign saying abort Palin then the same standard should be apply to abort Obama.

Abort Obama could mean to kill him but it could just as easily mean to terminate his Presidency, his agenda or many other things especially if it was written during his election campaign.

This officer clearly overreacted. Yes the SS policy probably says that they have to check out any call which I think such no leeway policy are lame and I would say that it was inappropriate for them to do what they did. The use of government resources in such manner can harass and intimidate even the most innocent person therefore suppressing free speech.

I was just reading over var... (Below threshold)
mag:

I was just reading over various books about Stalin. Was a monster. Russia truly was a evil run country. In any case, it say how many people were sent to the Gulag (hell on earth) for just saying something slightly against Stalin. I'm not saying we are anywhere near that God forbid, but it made me think of what I have been reading. This cop was way, way out of line. I hope this comes back and bites this cop on the ass big time.
What a jerk!

Calling Bush or Obama "Hitl... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

Calling Bush or Obama "Hitler" is just silly. Pointing out similarities in their methods or traits "may" be legit but often is silly as well. For example saying two of them were charismatic is true but many leaders' bad and good have had that trait. The use of secret police is nothing new and has many useful purposes such as finding terrorist. They can also be use inappropriate such as suppressing law abiding citizens or opposing political parties.

As I have explain in prior post, something being law doesn't necessarily make it right and sometimes breaking the law is not necessarily wrong. Was German breaking the law and trying to kill Hitler wrong? No. Would trying to kill Bush or Obama be wrong? Yes or at least at this point. If either one of them or both turn this country into a dictatorship in the future, then my opinion would change. Of course I realize that "right and wrong" is subjective but also know if you travel around enough and are open minded you will find that many basic "right and wrong" somehow are common throughout the world.

So Wayne and mag, how would... (Below threshold)
max:

So Wayne and mag, how would you define the word "abort" in the context of the sticker, "Abort Obama, Not The Unborn"?

#42I would say abort... (Below threshold)
mag:

#42
I would say abort...in this context means to stop him before he goes any further.
But regardless, being pull over for this was silly.

All boils down to "free spe... (Below threshold)
irongrampa:

All boils down to "free speech for me, but not for thee".


If you're a lib.

All your examples are pe... (Below threshold)
Brian:

All your examples are people breaking the law.

The woman threatened with arrest at the McCain rally was breaking no law. She was standing quietly on public property at a public event.

Also...

The display of profanities on sign is illegal in many places under any context.

Wrong. According to the US Supreme Court:

Absent a more particularized and compelling reason for its actions, the State may not, consistently with the First and Fourteenth Amendments, make the simple public display of this single four-letter expletive a criminal offense.

And if "f--k" isn't illegal, than "Bushit" certainly isn't illegal. And "FUGW" isn't illegal, either.

Unlawful demonstration is unlawful regardless of it being against a Republican or Democrat.

Clearly the IL cop didn't think it was "unlawful demonstration" on the scene, or he would have arrested them on the spot, instead of getting the city attorney to come up with charges after the fact.

The officers depicted in those links were relying on their own personal political biases, just as the one who stopped Obama was. This is not a right or left issue, regardless of how many exclamation points Cassy uses.

All boils down to "free ... (Below threshold)
Brian:

All boils down to "free speech for me, but not for thee".
If you're a lib.

If your entire knowledge of the world is limited to what you read in Cassy's posts, then yeah, I guess you'd think that's what it boils down to.

they are trying to limit ... (Below threshold)
MF:

they are trying to limit freedom of speech.
heard of the fairness doctrine?
it's anything but fair and would nix conservative radio but gee doesnt address tv.
how convenient--liberal media rules in tv world.

Casey,How many tim... (Below threshold)
smiles:

Casey,

How many times have you seen signs & bumber stickers that say "abortion = murder" ?

"Abort Obama" is a play on words, with one of the meanings being to kill the president. This is obvious to everyone.

Considering that there are groups in the U.S. that beleive in ending abortion through violence (google Army of God), the response of the officer and secret service was appropriate.

Cassy,If you are t... (Below threshold)
spiked:

Cassy,

If you are that upset contact the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) . They would probably take your case.

"The woman threatened with ... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

"The woman threatened with arrest at the McCain rally was breaking no law."

There were people breaking the law in that clip. A campaign rally although done in a public area is a private event so it is control by those holding it. Sporting events have code of conduct that even if not illegal can be band. That lady was told if she would put down the sign and get in line she could enter and she refuse to do both. She was purposely causing a public disturbance and yes could have been arrested for it if she refused to cease.

Your supreme court example of "1971" left out some details.

"Finally, in arguments before this Court much has been made of the claim that Cohen's distasteful mode of expression was thrust upon unwilling or unsuspecting viewers, and that the State might therefore legitimately act as it did in order to protect the sensitive from otherwise unavoidable exposure to appellant's crude form of protest."

Also follow on cases show that the Supreme agrees that there can be laws on obscene public behavior.

http://www.answers.com/topic/obscenity-and-pornography

Last especially at large demonstrations, riots, or large gathering of people, Officers often don't and\or can't arrest every infraction of a law.

The meaning of abortion on ... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

The meaning of abortion on the sticker to me would depend on the time it was made. If it was made during the election, I would say it meant to terminate Obama's cadency by not voting for him. If made after the election, I would say it meant not to go along with Obama agenda and not vote for him next time.

Fortunately the officer's a... (Below threshold)
epador:

Fortunately the officer's actions have been criticized by the Chief. However, such "overzealous" actions can be very chilling if they become more common. Keep an eye out.

There were people breaki... (Below threshold)
Brian:

There were people breaking the law in that clip.

But she wasn't. Don't try to make it like she was caught up in a sweep. There were no police until McCain's aides called them over because they didn't like her sign.

A campaign rally although done in a public area is a private event so it is control by those holding it.

It was a "public" town hall meeting on "public" property. No they can't. They can set the rules for entering, but they can't have the police throw people they don't like off public property.

That lady was told if she would put down the sign and get in line she could enter and she refuse to do both.

She didn't want to get in line. She didn't want to enter. She wanted to stand there.

She was purposely causing a public disturbance and yes could have been arrested for it if she refused to cease.

Oh, please. You forget that there's video. If that's a "disturbance" to you, then you have no credibility to argue anything else.

Korla P:"Hey, I th... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Korla P:

"Hey, I think it's inane, too. But that's the exact type of comparison the Bush Derangement Syndrome sufferers made all the time. 'Bush is Hitler! Bush is Hitler!"

So we both agree that he comparison is inane. Now we can move on without bringing up the issues you have with stereotypical liberals.

"Why would you discount the idea that anti-war Hollywood Scientologist nutjob couch-jumper bigtooth boy was making that analogy?"

I have no idea what the hell Tom Cruise is thinking, and I could really care less. What I do know is that the film was based on historical events, and did a decent job of portraying them. Decent, not stellar--despite the fact that Cruise played the lead role.

"It's not like the attempted assassins were not high-ranking nazis (in the real world) but noble Germans who suddenly realized how evil the war was."

Stauffenberg was just one person, among many, who tried to assassinate Hitler. Some were in high political positions, others were not. The motives for trying to off Hitler were varied, from what I know. Some, like Stauffenberg, had a real disagreement with the crap the Nazis were doing. Others, of course, had more politically expedient motives.

"They knew the war was not going well and wanted to negotiate a surrender with England and the U.S. before the Russians could kick their asses under less favorable terms."

True, for some. But not all of them.

I think the movie does an okay job of showing how some people just wanted to be on the winning side, and others had more noble intentions. I think that's fairly historically accurate. Cruise, of course, plays the latter. Lucky him.

"But this movie, and its promotional materials, proclaimed that 'Some Saw Evil... A Few Dared to Stop It,' with the takeaway message that 'treason is patriotic.'"

I still think that trying to connect Valkyrie to the former Bush admin and the Iraq war is quite a stretch. Also, if a country is hijacked by a fanatical mass murderer it makes sense to me that deposing him is in the best interests of the country.

In my opinion the movie was supposed to be about the actual historical events that it depicts. Feel free to impose your own subtext if you must. A lot of the power of the general story is the fact that generations of people have been asking why the German people just stood by as Hitler and his Nazis did what they did. I do think that the film at least addresses that subject, and shows that not every German citizen was completely complicit and duped by the Nazis. Many were just terrified. Then there were people who tried to do something, but many of them, like Straumberg, ended up at the wrong end of a firing squad.

"With all the other anti-Bush films, not to mention outright Bush assassination fantasy movies, books, etc, what makes this film so immune from such interpretation?"

Well, it IS about an actual historical event. But sure, the film can be interpreted in any way you want. I just happen to think that the comparison with Bush is stupid. But feel free to keep arguing for the validity of how you think your opposition supposedly views the film...or whatever it is that you are doing.

Some of you people are sick... (Below threshold)
Rolf:

Some of you people are sick.

Correction:I have ... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Correction:

I have no idea why I wrote "Straumberg," when I meant "Stauffenberg," in the third to last paragraph above. At least I got it right the first time I referred to him...

>I do think that the film a... (Below threshold)

>I do think that the film at least addresses that subject, and shows that not every German citizen was completely complicit and duped by the Nazis.

No, the people who tried to shoot the fuhrer knew they were losing, and that the Russians would get there before the Americans. They were all for destroying Poland and the rest of Europe. These were full-fledged Nazis, not innocent pretzel salesmen.

But that is beside the point. The real issue here is that you are taking this way too personally and sound downright defensive.

Strange.

"I would say abort...in thi... (Below threshold)
max:

"I would say abort...in this context means to stop him before he goes any further." - mag

And how does abortion stop a fetus before it goes any futher?

"If it was made during the election, I would say it meant to terminate Obama's cadency by not voting for him. If made after the election, I would say it meant not to go along with Obama agenda and not vote for him next time." - Wayne

So how does abortion terminate a fetus' presidential candidacy or agenda?

>So how does abortion termi... (Below threshold)

>So how does abortion terminate a fetus' presidential candidacy or agenda?

You might find this interesting... I just read on Drudge: "Words Can Now Have More Than One Shade of Meaning!"

OMG!!!


Con-text n. 1. The ... (Below threshold)
max:

Con-text n.
1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.

"Abort Obama, not the unborn"

Don't be a brick, KP.

Max you are unbelievable. I... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

Max you are unbelievable. If you abort (terminate\end) Obama's cadency then you can help abort (terminate\end) fetus abortions. What is so hard to understand about that?

>Don't be a brick, KP. ... (Below threshold)

>Don't be a brick, KP.

Brick, from Merriam-Webster:

"2: a good-hearted person"

Why, thank you. Your flattery half makes up for your disingenuous cluelessness.

Wayne, that makes no sense.... (Below threshold)
max:

Wayne, that makes no sense. Look at it this way. Based on the context of the sticker:

Abort is to (blank)

as

Obama is to the unborn.

Fill in the blank.

Max you are clueless but it... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

Max you are clueless but it is too tempting not to play along.
Abort is to the unborn
As
Obama is to the unborn

Since both results in the killing of the unborn

Alright Wayne, if you and K... (Below threshold)
max:

Alright Wayne, if you and KP want to wallow in your dogma and self-rightiousness you go right ahead. I'm going to abort this conversation as it is obviously not viable.

Morons.

Max if anyone is wallowing ... (Below threshold)
Wayne:

Max if anyone is wallowing in their dogma it is you. You are the one saying that the bumper sticker has to mean that they wanted Obama killed and there is no other possible explanation.

Just to help you out. One definition of
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.

Korla P:"No, the p... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Korla P:

"No, the people who tried to shoot the fuhrer knew they were losing, and that the Russians would get there before the Americans. They were all for destroying Poland and the rest of Europe. These were full-fledged Nazis, not innocent pretzel salesmen."

I think that explains some of the motives, but not all of them. And yes, most of them were in the military. One conspirator did make cabinets, though. So I think that it's pretty safe to assume that many of the later plots (43-44) had less than altruistic motives, as you point out. But regarding the ones earlier, when Germany was on a roll (39-41 or so), I really don't know the exact motives. Kurt von Hammerstein was openly hostile to Hitler and the Nazis, but his plot to kill Hitler in 1939 failed as well. The cabinet maker wasn't a Nazi fan either.

I also think that while the film was decent, it could have presented Stauffenberg in a more complex and historically accurate way. He did turn away from the Nazi Party after initially supporting it--and the film simply portrays him in a very heroic light. The more I read about his biography the less I like how the film depicted him.

So overall I think that your point about the motives of many people--especially those depicted in the film--were pretty suspect.

I do think that the film, despite its obvious faults, did at least point to some of the political and historical complexities of the time. It could have been better, but I have seen much worse. Valkyrie is by no means a definitive historical film.

"But that is beside the point. The real issue here is that you are taking this way too personally and sound downright defensive."

Ya, that's the real issue. Nice try. It's not something that I take personally at all; I just happen to be interested in historically based films, and I happen to have just seen this one.

Look, I can see that you like to read into things, but try not to go overboard. I saw the film, and then read up about some more of the details. I do that all the time, since I like to see how well films treat historical subjects.

I still think that your original interpretation is pretty far-fetched, and that was my main point. Maybe some liberals were relating Valkyrie to Bush and the current war, maybe not. If so, they are obviously pretty blinded ideologically since the comparison is pretty inane. But we already agreed on that.

Hmmm. Edit.This:<... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Hmmm. Edit.

This:

"So overall I think that your point about the motives of many people--especially those depicted in the film--were pretty suspect."

Should read more like this:

"So overall I agree with your point: the motives of people who tried to kill Hitler were often pretty suspect. This is especially true for the individuals who were depicted in the film. Stauffenberg included."




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