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Banned Tough Interrogation Techniques Worked

The tough interrogation techniques that Barack Obama said are unacceptable worked. There are Americans who are alive today because our CIA took care of business:

President Obama's national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times.

Admiral Blair's assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

"I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past," he wrote, "but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given."

Well Admiral Blair was not in charge when 9/11 happened so he was spared from having to make that difficult decision required to save thousands of American's lives, and thank God for that because if he had been in charge at that time, there would be a lot more dead Americans.

Added: And did you note in that excerpted quote that the New York Times acknowledges that the version of the memo that the Obama administration released to the media was edited in order to cover up some of the valuable information that we gained from those techniques?

Erick Erickson at RedState asks:

How many Americans will die because of Barack Obama's weak national security leadership?

He then described a conversation he had with Dick Cheney about this very topic:

By the way, when I had lunch with Vice President Cheney back in January, we discussed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Here's the relevant part of that conversation:
Many of the administration's opponents have never let go of the belief that terrorists could be prosecuted. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the best example: the dividing line between the Bush administrations admirers and its most vehement critics falls along not just party lines, but separates those whose views are legalistic and academic and those who view war pragmatically.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed belonged to Osama bin Laden's inner circle inside Al-Qaeda: he was the operational planner behind the 9-11 attacks. On March 1, 2003, the Pakistani ISI captured him. He eventually landed in Guantanamo Bay. Cheney pointed out that very little was known about Al-Qaeda in the early days of the War on Terror. People forget that. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, having gone through enhanced interrogation, provided "a basic database of information on Al-Qaeda," according to the Vice President. The sheikh provided information on where Al-Qaeda was located, how it received its funding, how it trained, etc. Without that information, which would never have been obtained via a judicial system prosecution, the United States would have been seriously set back in the early advancement of the war.

CNSNews has more details about what information the tough interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad yielded:

The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of "enhanced techniques" of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, "Soon, you will know."

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the "Second Wave"-- planned " 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles."


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Comments (69)

If these techniques work so... (Below threshold)
galoob:

If these techniques work so well, why not let domestic police use them against criminal suspects? Maybe it will cut down on crime in the USA.

If there were an imminent t... (Below threshold)

If there were an imminent threat of a massive attack that could kill thousands of Americans, sure.

"The tough interroga... (Below threshold)
Jake:


"The tough interrogation techniques that Barack Obama said are unacceptable worked. "

Barack Obama, the UN Torture convention we signed with scores of other nations. This isn't some crazy Obama liberal agenda craziness. This is a valid issue that is worthy of strong discussion. Torturing people may be necessary, but why are you all so willing to and seemingly excited to do it?

Either own it or stop talking lovingly about it. Either use the right word, torture, proudly, or stop glowing about how wonderful it is to beat people to get "confessions".

The Right takes such a hard stance about abortion and stem cell research (that life is sacred, that there is no middle grounds, that exception cases shouldn't dictate law and policy), yet the Right also seems to scoff at having a rational, reasoned, hard debate about whether torturing people is or is not worth while and/or inline with our views.

I'm curious for the blog post author and/or anyone else who think that torture is a worthy, noble pursuit: where do you draw the line with torture and disappearing people?

For the marginalized yet vo... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

For the marginalized yet vocal minority of neo-conservative war-porn fanatics, being tough on terror requires having very weak morals. Jack Bauer is lionized, and Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. are shat on. Awesome.

Hey you ghoulish torture apologists, spot the moral relevance: it's not okay when the Viet Cong did it, but it's fine when the CIA does it.

Pardon us Einstein, this ha... (Below threshold)
ODA315:

Pardon us Einstein, this has everything to do with what is defined as torture, not a UN "Torture Convention" that only we and a handful of others comply with.

The US military has, and does waterboard it's people. What about E&E training? How about Ranger School, SEAL hell week, or SFQC. Talk about brutal! Just waiting for the pansies to tell us these are akin to torture and we'll shut 'um down too.

I guess we'll just have to say "pretty please" next time. Especially as how our CNC has just given away the store to the enemy.

Of course when we're hit again meatsticks like Jake will blame Bush, Fox News, Rednecks, Catholics, etc. but never their own panacea.

If there were an i... (Below threshold)
jp2:
If there were an imminent threat of a massive attack that could kill thousands of Americans, sure.

Disgusting, Kimmy. Are you teaching your children that torture is acceptable? Love to see the family dinner for that conversation.

"Banned Tough Interrogation... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"Banned Tough Interrogation Techniques Worked"-kp

"...and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the [ILLEGAL*_ed.] orders they were given."_Adm. Dennis C. Blair, Obama's intelligence director

"two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times."_NYT

*Come out of the rabbit hole, Kim. Torture is banned under the US Constitution and the spook defending his supposed prerogatives is duly noted.

Holy Writ is against torture of man and beast. Period. And an average of 133 waterboarding sessions illustrates the fact that 1) torture has occurred, and 2) that either a) it is ineffective, or b) that psychopaths need to drummed out of governmental employ.

BTW, O'Reilly tonight squared Stratfor versus Cato on the torture issue (evidently assuming Stratfor would back the willful torture position favored by O'Reilly and the chickenhawks).
The "pro" side (Stratfor) was not ABOUT to be put on the record favoring the childish "24" "ticking time bomb" scenario O'Reilly submitted. O'Reilly looked ready to kill his guest booker; probably a woman.

She is probably getting a *strange* phone call as I type this.

Finally: admit it, Kim. The NYT deserves a passing grade. Though your Erickson links are hilarious, NYT it ain't.


Still waiting for ONE (1), ... (Below threshold)

Still waiting for ONE (1), UNO, terrorist that is missing an eyeball, has no fingernails, has his balls in a jar hung around his neck, is missing one of more body parts, etc.

If one DID exist then the media would have trotted them out LONG ago.

Instead, these morons start screaming "TORTURE!" the instant they see a microphone...and continue when they are released. Whereupon, of course, most of them go right back to trying to kill us! And they ALWAYS look very well fed and very well taken care of.

What the Left calls "torture" the rest of the world calls "discomfort".

BryanD - was waterbo... (Below threshold)
macofromoc:


BryanD - was waterboarding save American lives or not??

If the... (Below threshold)
Brett:
If there were an imminent threat of a massive attack that could kill thousands of Americans, sure.
Disgusting, Kimmy. Are you teaching your children that torture is acceptable? Love to see the family dinner for that conversation.

More disgusting that waiting around for thousands of Americans to die, while you coddle one of the conspirators? Hardly, I sure HOPE Kim teaches her family not to do that; clearly morality lessons are lost on (or more likely, intellectually beyond) you.

Calm down hyper, you really... (Below threshold)

Calm down hyper, you really are getting hysterical.

And moreover, imbecile, we ... (Below threshold)
Brett:

And moreover, imbecile, we are talking about SCARING someone in order to save thousands of American lives. SCARING THEM, for Christ's sake. If we were talking about red-hot pokers to the eyes, you argument would still be wrong, but that's not what we are talking about here - we are talking about blasting them with rock music, and scaring them into thinking they are drowning.

You would let thousand of people die to forestall 3 minutes of psychological trauma? That's beyond disgusting - anyone who failed to act in such a situation is unequivocally a traitor, both to America and to humanity. Sickening but sadly consistent - making someone feel bad is worse than killing thousands. Do you have any idea how monumentally and criminally foolish that is?

"BryanD - was waterboarding... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"BryanD - was waterboarding save American lives or not??"
9. Posted by macofromoc

I'm going to meet you halfway. COULD torture elicit information from a SPECIFIC individual concerning an SPECIFIC event?

Yes. If a child is being held by rapists, the police should do what they have to do and be willing to keep methods under their hat. I'm no shrinking violet, and police and intelligence officers have historically done such. But NOT to happy outcomes necessarily!

But the Bush doctrine of "enhanced interrogation" is practically a 12th General Order and an imbecilic announcement that the US will likely mistreat any foreign combatant because the Bush doctrine allows such towards its own citizens AS A RULE. "Lawfully". Draftees, cooks, ambulance drivers. All are liable to have military intelligence that could save or cost lives.

"Enhanced interrogation" assumes everyone is a criminal, and then the methods slingshot back and affect the Good Guys.

Think of the difference in attitudes between the WW2 USA-Germany POW situation (wherein the Other was seen as Human), and the Germany-USSR situation were more than 60% of prisoners died. That's because the Germans and Russians looked upon their struggle as a contest for survival due to (on the Germans' part, propoganda, and on the USSR's part, TIT-FOR-TAT)


Next on the liberal agenda ... (Below threshold)

Next on the liberal agenda -- Continue to redefine the term 'torture' to include depriving those being interrogated of cell phones and televisions... and comfy chairs... and haute cuisine... and incarceration...

"Either use the right wo... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"Either use the right word, torture, proudly, or stop glowing about how wonderful it is to beat people to get "confessions"."

This one's a real bee in your bonnet, eh? And I'm sure you're out there demanding that we use the right words rather than "overseas contingency operations" and "man-made disasters".

Why it just ain't right that anti-war protesters will have to get bigger signs:

"MAKE LOVE! NOT OVERSEAS CONTINGENCY OPERATIONS!"

Somehow, it just doesn't seem to roll off the tongue, does it?

----------------

And BryanD, could you be anymore disingenuous?

"Yes. If a child is being held by rapists, the police should do what they have to do and be willing to keep methods under their hat."

So you're not a shrinking violet, but God forbid you should actually hear about it. And what if it's not just a child, but an entire city?

"But the Bush doctrine of "enhanced interrogation" is practically a 12th General Order and an imbecilic announcement that the US will likely mistreat any foreign combatant because the Bush doctrine allows such towards its own citizens AS A RULE."

And who "announced" it, Bryan?

""Enhanced interrogation" assumes everyone is a criminal, and then the methods slingshot back and affect the Good Guys."

First, you're no "shrinking violet" and now you're against it. And you have evidence that every detainee was waterboarded? "Enhance interrogation" doesn't assume anything. People make assumptions and the assumption was that all those picked up and put in detainment were "bad guys" and then some were released. Kinda like our justice system. Although you're innocent until proven guilty, you're STILL in jail. But it doesn't mean they were all deemed to have inside knowledge of much importance. Some detainees are assumed to be more dangerous than others and those assumptions are not just pulled out of a hat. When KSM was picked up, we already knew who he was and that he would have information. Your argument assumes that they were ALL lined up and waiting for their turn to be waterboarded.

The use of these techniques appear to be the exception rather than the rule. And until someone can prove otherwise, that it was just a wholesale torture-fest, (and please don't whine about loud music) I prefer to give the sober men of our military the benefit of the doubt. I don't think these decisions were made willy-nilly.

A big part of the problem i... (Below threshold)
Bob:

A big part of the problem is defining what is torture. The current administration seems to define it as anything that makes a detainee uncomfortable. While I agree that some interrogation methods should not be used, preemptively taking everything off the table but polite inquiry seems to give our enemies too much advantage. I'm still comfortable with the tradeoff between saving thousands of lives and making our worst enemies extremely uncomfortable and scared for up to 40 seconds at a time. And the worst thing would be to retroactively re-write the rules so we can prosecute those who were acting in what they reasonably believed were lawful and reasonable ways to protect our lives.

I wonder why Kim Priestap o... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

I wonder why Kim Priestap omitted this part of the quote which was the sentence immediately after the end of the portion of Admiral Blair's quote she cited? Hmmmm.

It was his conclusion.

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

The main pressure coming d... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

The main pressure coming down on the torturers, was not to save American lives, but the much more prosaic one to save the skins and reputation of Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush and their justification of the Iraqi invasion. They would probably kill for that.


"Cheney's and Rumsfeld's people were told repeatedly, by CIA . . . and by others, that there wasn't any reliable intelligence that pointed to operational ties between bin Laden and Saddam, and that no such ties were likely because the two were fundamentally enemies, not allies."

Senior administration officials, however, "blew that off and kept insisting that we'd overlooked something, that the interrogators weren't pushing hard enough, that there had to be something more we could do to get that information," he said.

"The bottom line is thes... (Below threshold)
Tim:

"The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

I think the people who work in LA's Library Tower might disagree with that conclusion just a little bit.

#16, True, what is torture?... (Below threshold)
mag:

#16, True, what is torture??? For me chasing me around a room with a jar of bugs or showing me a snake would do it. Big Time.
But seriously, real torture like cutting off body parts, burning, unbelievable pain etc....no I don't agree with that.
Rough treatment, scare tactics, yes, I believe that is necessary to save lives. And I am quite fine with that.
However, these terrorist know how to use our system against us, a side eye look and they are really to scream torture and know the media will be on their side. Using our freedom and decency against us.


There may be Americans that... (Below threshold)

There may be Americans that are alive today "because the CIA took care of business" but God help any of our captured future military members who may be captured in the line of duty. We've doomed them.

And I still believe, deep down inside, that this policy has deeply wounded what the USA is all about. How can we be the leader of freedom, of liberty and of justice when we participate in such cowardly tactics? We've sacrificed liberty for security and we'll pay for it for years to come.

"because the CIA took ca... (Below threshold)
Sue:

"because the CIA took care of business" but God help any of our captured future military members who may be captured in the line of duty. We've doomed them.

When has our military EVER been treated with respect and according to the Geneva conventions, even when we did not "torture" thier military people or their illegal combatants?

Liberals always have the mushy thinking that IF ONLY we act "nice" then they will be nice to us. And of course their saying we have to act "nice" means "to be treated with kid gloves" and believe every accusation of torture that a terrorist lies about.

Timmer -Are they M... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Timmer -

Are they MORE or LESS doomed now than they were? I'm reasonably sure they'd rather be waterboarded according to the leaked memos than have their heads cut off or even treated as kindly as the captors at the Hanoi Hilton treated folks like McCain.

But you and I both know that's not likely.

When you go to war against a country or party that didn't sign on to the Geneva Accords, their concept of prisoner treatment isn't affected by it. We may not LIKE them torturing prisoners (and I'm talking real torture, the mangle, the boot, thumbscrews, hot irons, blinding, arm and leg breaking - more examples at http://history.howstuffworks.com/middle-ages/10-medieval-torture-devices.htm) but whether we're waterboarding or making them uncomfortable is unlikely to cause Achmed the Headhacker to pause in his neck-sawing.

How about McVeigh. Lefties ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

How about McVeigh. Lefties couldn't wait for him to be punished for such a horrible act. What if the FBI got him a day before and they were sure he was going to bomb a federal building killing many, but just did not know where. To you lefties, you would rather see the hundreds killed including children to make sure McVeigh is comfortable. Remember I said the FBI was positive the bombing would happen.

That is why you extreme lefties do not know about keeping people safe. If a burglar tresspassed into your home in the middle of the night, you would talk to them and say "Shoo, shoo" and hope for the best. That is how absolutely pathetic your argument it. It comes down to "people in other countries won't like us". War is hell. Always has been, always will. Life and death and everything in between comes into play many time every day. On this issue I think you extreme lefties are totally worthless. ww

Re: "That is why you extrem... (Below threshold)
Hank:

Re: "That is why you extreme lefties do not know about keeping people safe."

Exactly.

As Unrepentent Democrat showed, lefties are more concerned about "our image around the world".

The same information could ... (Below threshold)
BobDog:

The same information could have been obtained without resorting to torture.

Andrew Sullivan <a href="ht... (Below threshold)
James H:

Andrew Sullivan criticizes this theory.

BobDog: "The same inform... (Below threshold)

BobDog: "The same information could have been obtained without resorting to torture."

ALL evidence to the contrary!

The Library Tower and Brooklyn Bridge were BOTH saved by "harsh interrogation" per intelligence reports that have surfaced. In both cases the operations against those sites were IN MOTION...and prevented only because we got the information in time!

yes, you can spend MONTHS wearing someone down (gently, of course) with questions and then trying to trip them up. Again, these days if the prisoner says they are TIRED then you must S-T-O-P! (to continue when they are tired would HARSH!)

Get it?

HankThat was a bri... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

Hank

That was a brilliant comment. You just charged Admiral Blair whom Kim Priestap as her authority with being a "lefty" who only cares about our image. Admiral Blair - the national intelligence director. That guy.

Actually the Library tower ... (Below threshold)
wonkie:

Actually the Library tower plot was fioled because one of the plotters got arrested in 2002. The other plotters cancelled the plot. The porture of Mohammad didn't happen until 2003.

So no torture did not yeild high vlue information.

Wonkie and UD, you have no ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Wonkie and UD, you have no credibility with this subject. You already demonstrated you are willing for americans to die then the hurt one terrorist. So please, go to a puppy dog blog. ww

WWDoes Admiral Bla... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

WW

Does Admiral Blair have any credibility or is that the exclusive province of extremist right wing bloggers such as yourself?

There is no such thing as a... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

There is no such thing as a fair fight. You either win or lose. The left screams we must fight fair, then kicks you right in the balls. Example. Having a homosexual male judge at a femaie beauty contest. Torture would be more like what McCain endured from the Communist Viet Namese. Hands tied behind back and hung from those hands overhead and beaten with sticks until the shoulder sockets give out. I watched a guy get waterboarded as a volunteer. That is childs play compaired to real torture. If Obama's disclosure costs American lives in the future. He will have to take shelter in the confines of the White House with a security guard (large) surrounding him as it will not be safe to travel to Air Force One. Marines will not fly him to safety.

Willie, the fact that you p... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Willie, the fact that you ponder this issue in terms of how many lives it saves speaks to your moral shallowness.

It's not about whether or not it saves lives--it's about whether or not torturing enemies fits with American values. If it does, then why should anyone cheer for the Americans in their struggle against terrorists when they are willing to torture their enemies?

And the hypothetical examples of ticking time bombs are really stupid. How could anyone be certain that an accused terrorist would have accurate information, without already knowing what that information is?

When you condone torture, you're no longer one of the good guys. That would be fine if this were an epic struggle between two civilizations with the future of your nation hanging in the balance, with right and wrong no longer having much meaning, but thankfully most sane people do not see things that way.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft Dungeons ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Zelsdorf Ragshaft Dungeons & Dragons III hates American values of decency and respect for other persons.

Move to Saudi Arabia or China, you'd be more comfortable and would fit in better in one of those political environments.

No way I'm going to China. ... (Below threshold)
Tim:

No way I'm going to China. Their caterpillars are freakin' HUGE!!

I can see it now, around 20... (Below threshold)

I can see it now, around 2035:

Kids: what did you do in the war, grandpa?

Hyper: I agitated for getting harsh language and cold soup classified as torture, kids.

Kids: then what happened?

Hyper: They blew up Toronto. But Bush is to blame!

Kids: But wasn't Bush out of office for a number of years?

Hyper: I don't care! Bush is evil! Bloodthirsty neocons, the lot of 'em! Cheney too! Did I ever tell you about how he liked to eat
babies?

Kids: I think it's about time for grandpa's meds again. Only use a bigger dose this time so he won't drool so much.

Hyper, I think clubbing bab... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Hyper, I think clubbing baby seals to death and supporting it shows your moral shallowness and respect for living things.

Firstly, I do not believe water boarding or enhanced interrogation meets the definition of torture so my morality is intact.

Already proven there is no long lasting harm to that technique which goes against the definition of torture. A doctor even stands by.

Let's put this in perspective. You developed this stance because it could or would hurt GW Bush, so now you can't back away from it.

You may live in a marshmellow cloud world, but I believe there is real evil in this world that wants to kill my family or fellow citizens.

If we capture a terrorist and through intel we are sure this terrorist set a plan in motion that will have a devastating killing effect on citizens and all we needed was the location and date, you extreme lefties would say "to hell with the innocent. We don't want to temporarily harm someone". You guys are pathetic. I will say it again, you lefties have no credibility on this issue. It is driven by your ideological stance that had to be different from GW's. ww

From the NYT:Presi... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

From the NYT:

President Obama's national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.


"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday

Wow! It works. ww

It's not about whether o... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

It's not about whether or not it saves lives--it's about whether or not torturing enemies fits with American values.

Morals over lives? Geezus, you want to talk about shallow...

And the hypothetical examples of ticking time bombs are really stupid.

So what about the four justice department memos detailing the interrogation techniques that yielded actionable intelligence on AQ operations in and out the U.S. that the Obama Admin. won't release for some curious reason. Now why won't they do that? I tell you why: It doesn't fit the narrative that the Bush Admin was a lawless, reckless and Constitution-gutting administration they've been made out to be.

When you condone torture, you're no longer one of the good guys.

Who the f*** cares whether the Euro-donks and other America-hating countries think we're good guys? Talk about shallow. Sometimes (gasp!) good guys have to do bad things for the greater good. The fact that elitist snobs and psedo-intellectual sit back and play moral equivalency Monday-morning QB is pathetic and worthless.

Release the justice department memos and reveal what the CIA gleamed from the interrogations.


mag - "Rough treatment,... (Below threshold)
marc:

mag - "Rough treatment, scare tactics, yes, I believe that is necessary to save lives. And I am quite fine with that."

Funny you should use the term scare tactics, makes me wonder how many of these buffoons so against insects in the cells of jihadist-cut-throats laugh their asses off watching the TV show Scare Tactics.

Other than waterboarding, a debatable issue for some, everything outlined in the released memos would and could be ripe fodder for that TV show.

timmer - "And I still believe, deep down inside, that this policy has deeply wounded what the USA is all about. How can we be the leader of freedom, of liberty and of justice when we participate in such cowardly tactics?"

Yeah, because we know all the whiners and bed-wetters in the EU and elsewhere would never do such things right?

Horseshit, they're a bunch of hypocrites who over-look the abuse of their own govs hace conducted on their own people and those in foreign lands because of one thing... it's and excuse.

An excuse to trot out the stereotype of the "cowboy-knuckle-dragging-redneck-gun-totin' image of Americans that Bush falsely represented to them.

Odd isn't it, for years we've heard that waterboarding doesn't work, but now evidence has finally been on display to the contrary those opposed to Bush and or the U.S. all are hanging their hats on "he got waterboarded 183 TIMES!"

The fact KSM endured waterboarding that many times, with at this point no provable side effects, lays to waste their argument.

McClatchy reporting today t... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

McClatchy reporting today that torture was used by the Bush regime in a concerted attempt to wring false confessions tying Saddam Hussein to the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/

Planet Wambeeno News report... (Below threshold)

Planet Wambeeno News reporting today that bryanD is about to be picked up by the mother ship to get new cranial implants and a tin foil hat.

Planet Wambeeno Ne... (Below threshold)
marc:
Planet Wambeeno News reporting today that bryanD is about to be picked up by the mother ship to get new cranial implants and a tin foil hat.
And Flux-Capacitor.
"Planet Wambeeno News repor... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"Planet Wambeeno News reporting today that bryanD is about to be picked up by the mother ship to get new cranial implants and a tin foil hat."
43. Posted by OregonMuse

Funny you should take that angle. As I type, Brett Bair's Fox TV news mag is presenting a suppositional UFO story as news. Probably to avoid the McClatchy story.

FYI McClatchy was one of the few news organizations not to allow itself to be steamrolled into war fever per Iraq, noting the bribing of Iraqi intelligence sources with their evolving testimonies. And McClatchy called BS on the WMD tale before the invasion.

Anyway, one day your ship will come in. Perhaps you'll find a side by side refrigerator-freezer on sale to make up for poor fishing online.

"Funny you should take ... (Below threshold)
marc:

"Funny you should take that angle. As I type, Brett Bair's Fox TV news mag is presenting a suppositional UFO story as news."

Yeah that it, a "distraction," except the same story is being pimped by many news agencies.

Nitwit.

1. Not a liberal. Not a c... (Below threshold)

1. Not a liberal. Not a conservative either by what I've seen here in the past year or two.

2. I'm a retired USAF Master Sergeant. I'll put my commitment to this nation up against anyone else's here.

3. Just because the dirtbags we're fighting don't follow the rules of war outlined in the Geneva Convention does not release our moral obligation to conduct ourselves in a civilized manner.

4. When we start acting like the bad guys...ummm, that means they're winning. One of the definitions of surrender is to join the winning side.

5. We're Americans. We don't do this kind of shit. It's simply not who we are. At least it's not who I am. I'm quite proud of that actually.

Timmer, you are full of shi... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Timmer, you are full of shit. We do no such thing except in your own mind. Hazing at the Citadel and other military academies has gone on for years and years. Gosh, what a bunch of scared, panty wasted guys. ww

WillieYou're the p... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

Willie

You're the poster child, the clearest demonstration, the undoubted representative of why the Republican party has no ideas, no leaders, no integrity. Goof ball ultra-conservatives such as yourself have hijacked the party. All you can do is hurl insults and invectives at veterans who dare to disagree with your extremist and minority perspective. I for one hope that you and your ilk continue to demonstrate that you have absolutely nothing in the way of ideas that appeal to anyone but the fringe from the right. Those, that in the same breath call Obama a socialist, a nazi and a fascist. Idiots all and you are their shining example. Idiots one and all.

You're a disgrace, insulting a veteran who dares to have principle and is willing to back it up.

ISN`T THIS THE SAME MAN THA... (Below threshold)
mickey doyle:

ISN`T THIS THE SAME MAN THAT TOLD CLINTON TO PARDON MARK RICH,BUT TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROTECTING OUR COUNTRY WITH IMPORTANT INFO IS BREAKING THE LAW GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Funny, I've asked at least ... (Below threshold)
Jake:

Funny, I've asked at least three times in three comment threads for an answer to this question:

- If torture is so painless, and if torture is so effective, why not let policemen domestically have at it as part of their own interrogations?

Funny, nobody seems to have answered that yet.

Funny, I've asked ... (Below threshold)
Funny, I've asked at least three times in three comment threads for an answer to this question:

- If torture is so painless, and if torture is so effective, why not let policemen domestically have at it as part of their own interrogations?

Funny, nobody seems to have answered that yet.


Funny I've seen this answered so many times it doesn't even get asked anymore. Its the difference of citizens protected by our constitution vs. non-citizens that aren't protected.
Jake" If to... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Jake

"
If torture is so painless, and if torture is so effective, why not let policemen domestically have at it as part of their own interrogations?

"

I answered that in the thread on real torture. Shall I get a local cop to your neurosurgery?
Go read my answer on that thread.
---------

Unrepentent Democrat and skyblue and Jake

Let me ask you this regarding torture

Are you contending that it is okay to tear an unborn child limb from limb in an abortion but it isnt okay to put a terrorist in a confined space?

Are you contending that it is okay to suck an unborn childs brain out of its head but it isnt okay to make a terorist stand in a stress position?

Are you contending it is okay to snuff the life of an unborn child to make it's mother more convenient for a few months prior to giving it up for adoption but it isnt okay to put an insect in a cramped space with a terrorist to try to save thousands of lives?

Please enlighten us.

retiredInte... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

retired


Interesting how you (1) changed the subject and (2) left out water boarding. Nice try but you failed. Be nice to see you defend a fellow veteran against a nut jog like ww.

Hey, I'm ex Air Force, too.... (Below threshold)
Tim:

Hey, I'm ex Air Force, too. I don't think waterboarding is torture. So, I cancel out Timmer's opinion. The rest of you may carry on.

Thanks, Tim!... (Below threshold)

Thanks, Tim!

Undem: you are usually the ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Undem: you are usually the one who hurls invective such as your response to me with the usual nazi reference.

I am a veteran and proud of it. I don't discuss when or what or what branch because my service to my country is my private pride and joy. I did it. I gave up some years to serve my country. But I never use that service as a prop to have people think my opinion should have more weight because I did serve. That cheapens the service in my opinion. I don't think veterans flaunt their service like that. That is why I think Timmer is full of shit.

Take a chill pill. I think and am almost sure Timmer is a liberal ringer who likes to start things with: "I served in the State Dept., or I served in the military, or I am a constitutional lawyer". All unproven BS. ww

"all unproven" as of course... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

"all unproven" as of course is your claim which is expect is "B.S.". Frankly, I wouldn't believe anything you say as your extremism is self-evident.

As for the the "usual nazi ... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

As for the the "usual nazi reference" , I should have clearly stated was that it was a reference to the goofballs on Tea Party day, filmed more than once, who in the same breath were calling Obama those names or who were carrying signs that made those claims. These are the extremists from the right and so are you.

UD, you exactly proved my p... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

UD, you exactly proved my point. You don't know who served and who didn't you nitwit, but you immediatley called me out when I doubted Timmer about his lame service notification.

Also, the people carrying the nazi signs were liberal ringers provenly sent in to accomplish that. ww

Those who pursue the "if it... (Below threshold)
Ri Ho:

Those who pursue the "if it wasn't for the CIA, and the Bush Administrations Torture Policies, then...", seem to have forgotten that if the CIA had been doing its job and Cheney, Rice and others of their (incompetent) ilk had really cared about national security, there never would have been a 911.

So, it would seem that their justification for this form of torture was just an over-reaction to their lack of attention to the signals that would have alerted any fairly sentient individual to this possibility. It that the point most of you are trying to make.

wwDo you ever actu... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

ww

Do you ever actually read the crap you write here? After claiming that Timmer is a liberal ringer who claims to be a number of things - thus, at a minimum, inferring he's lying about being a veteran you get your panties in a wad when I say I doubt anything you claim to be. You do understand the hypocrisy if not the insanity of what you claim?

Then you make a wild accusation, with no proof whatsoever, that the folks carrying the Hitler/Obama signs were actually liberal ringers.

Is "liberal ringer" your new phrase for the day or did you get it from Rush (Oxycontin) Limblowhard. I doubt you've ever had an original thought in your life so I suspect you got it from Limblowhard who of course is the acknowledged leader of the modern Republican party.

OregonMuse: what will you t... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

OregonMuse: what will you tell *your* grandkids when they ask about the war on an abstract concept that was sold to an intellectually stunted population with false premises? What have *you* done in the Great Struggle Against Swarthy People Who Want To Pee On The Statue of Liberty? Will you tell your grandkids that you let terrorists cow you into a state of hysteric reactionary paranoia (otherwise known as letting the terrorists win), or will you tell them that you went about living your life like a sane person?

WildWillie: Hyper, I think clubbing baby seals to death and supporting it shows your moral shallowness and respect for living things.

And I think that your equivocation of baby seals with human beings means that you would feel comfortable at a PETA chapter meeting; and it certain disqualifies you from using the word 'moral' with any meaningful import. Seriously. You would fail a first year applied ethics class, and not because of your marginal literacy.

More from the Widdle Wanker: Firstly, I do not believe water boarding or enhanced interrogation meets the definition of torture so my morality is intact.

Who cares what you believe? Being wrong/ignorant doesn't get you off the hook, morally speaking. Hitler didn't think that Jews were people, but that doesn't change the fact that he murdered 6,000,000+ Jewish people. Your interpretation of the facts really has nothing to do with the facts themselves, Willie. Stop being so post-modern, it doesn't suit you.

Peter F.: The fact that elitist snobs and psedo-intellectual sit back and play moral equivalency Monday-morning QB is pathetic and worthless.

Breathtakingly ironic that someone who accuses "snobs" (your word for the anti-torture majority) of moral equivalency thinks that torturing enemies is acceptable when America does it, but categorically barbaric when the enemy does it to Americans. And spare me the faux-conservative distinction between fake torture and "real" torture--psychological trauma, as Iraq war proponent Christopher Hitchens has experienced after being waterboarded, is no less "real" than being physically maimed.

If you think it's alright to torture people because it might save lives, then you're a utilitarian douche bag with no principles and no integrity and you are certainly not one of the good guys. And there's no reason to prefer the survival of a civilization populated by utilitarians, to a society populated by principled jihadists.

Wow! I am now compared to H... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Wow! I am now compared to Hitler by you extreme left trolls. I have arrived. That is saved for the big guys usually.

So, if I think enhanced interrogation is not torture, in my opinion, I am like Hitler? Got it now. Hyper. You are so right. I wish I could be as smart as you. ;) ww

"Breathtakingly ironic t... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"Breathtakingly ironic that someone who accuses "snobs" (your word for the anti-torture majority) of moral equivalency thinks that torturing enemies is acceptable when America does it, but categorically barbaric when the enemy does it to Americans."

Please, tell me you're not making some feeble attempt to compare beheading with waterboarding.

Because, you know, I might think you're an idiot.

No, Willie, you weren't bei... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

No, Willie, you weren't being compared to Hitler. Your line of reasoning was being compared to those who sincerely believed they were doing right by doing wrong. Hitler was the first person who came to mind, but to avoid the ad Hitler fallacy that I could reasonably be interpreted as having just committed, pretend I said Pol Pot instead.

Oyster: so as long as the terrorists do something worse than what America does, whatever America is justified?

Beheading isn't torture, by the way, it's execution. I'm categorically opposed to the death penalty, because it does give some basis to the enemies of free peoples to practice it themselves--and they tend not to use more "humane" methods like sodium pentathol injections.

I was right. You are, let'... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

I was right. You are, let's say, "not too bright". Someone tried in courts approved by the people, and judged by a jury of peers for a crime, and found guilty for that crime, and then executed, gives a "basis" for a rogue group appointed by no one but themselves as arbiters of justice to summarily execute another by the worst means possible, causing the most pain and suffering is what you chose to compare.

Got it.

That some on death row are later to be found innocent would be a fair argument if you wish to discuss institutional execution. But that's a whole 'nother argument from what you're saying here. We're talking about waterboarding known terrorists - mass murderers, if you will.

When you condone ... (Below threshold)
maggie:
When you condone torture, you're no longer one of the good guys. That would be fine if this were an epic struggle between two civilizations with the future of your nation hanging in the balance, with right and wrong no longer having much meaning, but thankfully most sane people do not see things that way.

Hyperbolist, I had to read that quote more
than once. Are you serious? What do you think
has been going on, but a violent clash of
one culture against another?
Good grief!

Because, you know... (Below threshold)
maggie:
Because, you know, I might think you're an idiot.

Oyster,
Not an idiot, no way. A moby.




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