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You want to Know what Real Torture is?

This is real torture:

The Sheikh begins by stuffing sand down the man's mouth, as the police officers restrains the victim.

Then he fires bullets from an automatic rifle around him as the man howls incomprehensibly.

At another point on the tape, the Sheikh can be seen telling the cameraman to come closer.

"Get closer. Get closer. Get closer. Let his suffering show," the Sheikh says.

Over the course of the tape, Sheikh Issa acts in an increasingly sadistic manner.

He uses an electric cattle prod against the man's testicles and inserts it in his anus.

At another point, as the man wails in pain, the Sheikh pours lighter fluid on the man's testicles and sets them aflame.

Then the tape shows the Sheikh sorting through some wooden planks. "I remember there was one that had a nail in it," he says on the tape.

The Sheikh then pulls down the pants of the victim and repeatedly strikes him with board and its protruding nail. At one point, he puts the nail next to the man's buttocks and bangs it through the flesh.

"Where's the salt," asks the Sheikh as he pours a large container of salt on to the man's bleeding wounds.

The victim pleads for mercy, to no avail.

The final scene on the tape shows the Sheikh positioning his victim on the desert sand and then driving over him repeatedly. A sound of breaking bones can be heard on the tape.

What you read above is real torture.

Water boarding is not torture. It is clinical and controlled by trained CIA agents who were water boarded themselves as part of their training. The subject being water boarded isn't in any real physical danger. It's a technique used to panic and scare the bejezus out of a him while not hurting him in any way so as to get information needed to save American lives. And it works. Los Angeles would have been hit and thousands more Americans could have been killed if we didn't extract the information we needed to stop the attack. Those who had the information gave it up and didn't have any physical injuries when it was over. They were just a bit terrified of our CIA agents, and that's the way it should be.


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Comments (156)

I guess you and the other f... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

I guess you and the other folks who are so hot to use water boarding would disagree with the war crimes trial and convictions of the Japanese who did it to Americans during WW II? Tell us please. Do you believe they were unfairly singled out, tried and convicted? If not, why not?

If we wanted to use real... (Below threshold)
iwogisdead:

If we wanted to use real torture, we'd show the combatants pictures of Susan Estrich and Helen Thomas.

That's it, UD, change the t... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

That's it, UD, change the topic. For your unenlightened dumb ass, the Japanese tortured Americans for no other reason than sport, they had no information about future planned actions, seeing as they were prisoners of war. Same with the Nazi's in the death camps. Gave the guards a diversion from their normal hum-drum days.

Must have been real torture if they had to rack the guy about 168 times. But then that was probably because of all the safe-guard hoops the operative had to jump thru.

GrandFanAnd your s... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

GrandFan

And your source for it was done only for sport is? You might want to read about the water boarding after the Doolittle raid on Tokyo.

With no small amount of bot... (Below threshold)

With no small amount of both irony and disgust, I note that many of those who are outraged by the CIA water boarding terrorists have no problem with killing innocent babes in the womb.

That's it, UD, change th... (Below threshold)
Brian:

That's it, UD, change the topic.

He didn't change the topic. Kim wrote "Water boarding is not torture." That makes it the topic.

"This is real torture..."</... (Below threshold)

"This is real torture..."

No Kim. These days the White House would call it "enhanced discomfort technique" -- that is, if they are even willing to acknowledge its existence.

u dem - "I guess you an... (Below threshold)
marc:

u dem - "I guess you and the other folks who are so hot to use water boarding would disagree with the war crimes trial and convictions of the Japanese who did it to Americans during WW II?"

So which is it u dem you've read about what the Japanese did, read how the CIA used the technique, or both case?

Or neither, you're just parroting something you read at DKos or put out by the DUmmies?

I'd suggest you read both (but you won't intellectual honesty is not your forte), you will see a striking difference between the two.

I could apply your same arg... (Below threshold)
SyBlue:

I could apply your same argument to someone that robs a bank. Robing a bank is not really stealing.

On the other hand, someone that robs the U.S. Mint, thats a real thief. Or the people that pulled of the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum art theft; the largest art theft in history. They are real thiefs.

Waterboarding is torture. It may not be as horrifc as what the Shiek did but it is still torture.

skyblue - "Waterboardin... (Below threshold)
marc:

skyblue - "Waterboarding is torture. It may not be as horrifc as what the Shiek did but it is still torture."

Many people feel that way, many here don't.

But ya know if KSM was waterboarded 180 plus times and still lives in the lap of luxury (as compared to U.S. in country prisons), in addition to thousands of U.S. military members being waterboarded as part of training I'm just not buying what your selling.

So... where's my linked story detailing U.S. held terrorists that have been killed?

a technique used to pani... (Below threshold)
SkyBlue:

a technique used to panic and scare the bejezus out of a him while not hurting him in any way...

If that were the case than why would waterboarding be used 183 time on the same person. Don't you think by the second or third time he would have realized he was being waterboarded? Obviously the waterboardng was accessive and used for reasons ther than you stated.

I guess you and th... (Below threshold)
I guess you and the other folks who are so hot to use water boarding would disagree with the war crimes trial and convictions of the Japanese who did it to Americans during WW II?

Those Japanese soldiers was charged and convicted for other actions beyond waterboarding.

Things like murder, and brutally beating captured soldiers and burning their captives with cigarettes, etc.

Some, such as Gen. Sawada, were found not guilty.

But, by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

I could apply your same ... (Below threshold)
iwogisdead:

I could apply your same argument to someone that robs a bank. Robing a bank is not really stealing.

On the other hand, someone that robs the U.S. Mint, thats a real thief. Or the people that pulled of the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum art theft; the largest art theft in history. They are real thiefs.

Waterboarding is torture. It may not be as horrifc as what the Shiek did but it is still torture.

For anyone who passed their high school English classes, reading this post is torture.

Skyblue"If that were... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Skyblue
"If that were the case than why would waterboarding be used 183 time on the same person. Don't you think by the second or third time he would have realized he was being waterboarded?"

YOu really are a nonthinking koolaid drinking NITWIT.

You can sit there and say hey this has happend 100+ times before and I didnt die. That doesnt stop the body's survival instinct think that you are drowning. Nor does it do anything to combat the panic that sets in when you feel that way.

Have you ever almost drown? I have. It scares the shit out of you and in your case it would take a lot of scaring to get it all out of you.

WHo says they were asking him the same questions each and every time? Did it ever occur to your kool aid drinking pea brain that maybe just maybe they were acting on differnet pieces of information at different times? Did you not think that he may have had contact with new prisoners and gathered information from them? Are you so totally dense to think that hey they did this just for fun and wnated to ask him the same thing 100+ times??

You are the definition of the word idiot. USE YOUR BRAIN for something other than a stopper for the crap coming out of your mouth and ears.

IDIOT.


Therefore, SyBlue is a war ... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

Therefore, SyBlue is a war criminal.

UD"I guess you and t... (Below threshold)
retired military:

UD
"I guess you and the other folks who are so hot to use water boarding would disagree with the war crimes trial and convictions of the Japanese who did it to Americans during WW II"

Was waterboarding all the Japanese did during WW2 to prisoners (military and civilian) ? Oh wait. They raped, used bamboo shoots under fingernails, used bricks on prisoners testicles, broke bones, medical experimentation, forced prostitution, starvation, mass execution, etc

You are an unrepentent democrat and an idiot at that.

FUCK OBAMA!... (Below threshold)
JG:

FUCK OBAMA!

But ya know if KSM was w... (Below threshold)
SkyBlue:

But ya know if KSM was waterboarded 180 plus times and still lives in the lap of luxury (as compared to U.S. in country prisons), in addition to thousands of U.S. military members being waterboarded as part of training I'm just not buying what your selling.

What makes you think they are living in the lap of luxory at Guantánamo Bay?

Do you consider the following torture?


It was pitch black, and no lights on in the rooms for most of the time ... They hung me up for two days. My legs had swollen. My wrists and hands had gone numb ... There was loud music, Slim Shady and Dr. Dre for 20 days. I heard this non-stop over and over, I memorized the music, all of it, when they changed the sounds to horrible ghost laughter and Halloween sounds. It got really spooky in this black hole ... Interrogation was right from the start, and went on until the day I left there. The CIA worked on people, including me, day and night. Plenty lost their minds. I could hear people knocking their heads against the walls and the doors, screaming their heads off ... Throughout my time I had all kinds of music, and irritating sounds, mentally disturbing. I call it brainwashing.

They cut off my clothes with some kind of doctor's scalpel. I was naked. I tried to put on a brave face. But maybe I was going to be raped. Maybe they'd electrocute me. Maybe castrate me.

They took the scalpel to my right chest. It was only a small cut. Maybe an inch. At first I just screamed ... I was just shocked, I wasn't expecting ... Then they cut my left chest. This time I didn't want to scream because I knew it was coming.

One of them took my penis in his hand and began to make cuts. He did it once, and they stood still for maybe a minute, watching my reaction. I was in agony. They must have done this 20 to 30 times, in maybe two hours. There was blood all over. "I told you I was going to teach you who's the man," [one] eventually said.

They cut all over my private parts. One of them said it would be better just to cut it off, as I would only breed terrorists.

Sadly predictable comment t... (Below threshold)
epador:

Sadly predictable comment thread.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

I have always wondered what... (Below threshold)
MichaelC:

I have always wondered what kind of person would believe anything that the enemy of his country claims against anything that the people of his own country say. People like skyblue are that kind. Just giving it all up for the enemy. Don't even have to waterboard them to get them to do it. They despise their own people. Why wouldn't they believe whatever the enemy says?

Hey SkyBlue,Ever h... (Below threshold)

Hey SkyBlue,

Ever hear of al-taqiyya?

No?

Go look it up.

"This is REAL torture...Wha... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"This is REAL torture...What you read above is REAL torture...It is CLINICAL and controlled...The subject being water boarded isn't in any REAL physical danger..."-kim

I see the black knights are surrendering the center of the dialectical chess board. No wonder Cheney is out on the barbican.

I think it obvious you libs... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I think it obvious you libs aren't going to change our minds, nor we yours. You can pontificate from 'the high moral ground' all you want. Just remember that others have kept your ass safe for the last 8 years. Can you GUARANTEE that for the next 4?

the administration... (Below threshold)
JG:

the administration will say nothing and the media will ignore this tape. and the UAE is suppose to be civil one!

When we get hit again (and ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

When we get hit again (and we will) skyblue and his ilk will say it is Bush's fault because he condoned putting underwear on their heads.

Kim,You are a deme... (Below threshold)
Jake:

Kim,

You are a demented, sad person. If waterboarding, beatings, chaining someone in fetal positions, threatening to bury alive, and various other forms of punishment, aren't torture, are you willing to undergo them? Do you think that verbally abused women should be denied safe haven from their verbal abusers until they can show marks?

The discussion is not whether these techniques are torture, as they fit EVERY defition yet created (at least before this site decided that they were harmless, painless, and no problematic). The discussion SHOULD be about whether we, as a country rooted in justice, is willing to accept these policies as the way we do business daily.

If these techniques are such low key techniques, not causing any real harm, would you suggest that we grant the right to perform them to our local policemen to use during THEIR interregation? If you say no, I can only think that either don't think they're effective or that their moral or both. Either that, or that we should have two different standards of morality: one for citizens and one for the rest of the world.

Would love to hear your answers.

Am I missing something? Do ... (Below threshold)
Myronhalo:

Am I missing something? Do I hear people saying that waterboarding of known and unrepentant terrorists is torture, but caving in a defenseless, innocent, unborn's skull with a forceps is not?
Are these people really concerned about what happened to these terrorists, who were not enemy combatants in a declared war, but rather malcontents who would kill anybody to make a statement and get some attention?
I don't believe that these people give an owl's hoot about the welfare of the people who were waterboarded. I believe they only care about attacking the people who were responsible for it, and will use any means and any issue to destroy them if they can.
As Susan Boyle sang, "Cry me a River", but pleeeeeeeease spare me the hypocrisy.

"Kim, You are a demented... (Below threshold)
914:

"Kim, You are a demented sad Person."

STFU dirtbag.

Dirtbag, meatstick, idiot..... (Below threshold)
Jake:

Dirtbag, meatstick, idiot... wow, this really IS compassionate conservatives at work!

The discussion SHO... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:
The discussion SHOULD be about whether we, as a country rooted in justice, is willing to accept these policies as the way we do business daily.

Jake, I have to agree with 914. I am beginning to suspect the only reason you come here is because its extra income to be reactionary. At least say something intelligent. We're not talking about "daily business", as in computer sales, we're talking about methods of torture in a circumstance of war. Although I don't agree with most that has been done with this country since I was old enough care, even I can tell the difference. Your comment suggests that you really don't give a sh*t and just want to call people names. Is that how you "do business" daily in person? It's a lot easier to be rude without cause behind a comment, isn't it?

Now, back to the topic, I actually saw the youtube video, and I have a lot of questions about its authenticity. You can't really see the faces that well, but someone has already been implicated as a suspect. Obviously, a man is being treated very badly, and I wouldn't condone this behavior, but it almost seems like another staged scenario.

"Dirtbag, meatstick, idiot.... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

"Dirtbag, meatstick, idiot... wow, this really IS compassionate conservatives at work!"

So, what is your "work", Jake? Bloviating pronouncements at 50 cents a word?

Am I missing something? ... (Below threshold)
Jake:

Am I missing something? Do I hear people saying that waterboarding of known and unrepentant terrorists is torture, but caving in a defenseless, innocent, unborn's skull with a forceps is not?"

Hmm.... checking... yep, nobody said that. Nice strawman attempt though.

"Are these people really concerned about what happened to these terrorists, who were not enemy combatants in a declared war, but rather malcontents who would kill anybody to make a statement and get some attention?"

Since I'm one of "these people", let me try to answer this. My concern isn't about protecting "terrorists", it's about protecting AMERICANS. What WE do is important because what WE do defines US. When we stoop to the level of scumbags (not dirtbags like me, of course), we let scumbags define who we are. Our founders (not just the fathers but the thousands that fought with them) fought AND DIED for freedom. And "freedom" isn't just about total and utter self-preservation, IMHO. The debate we are having (whether we Americans agree that an officially sanctioned PROGRAM of ongoing, regular, and largely uninhibited torture and disappearing) is something that's inline with our beliefs as a country. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't torture, I'm saying that having a program for its regular usage crosses the line of what I, as an American, believe is part of our country's dream.

"I don't believe that these people give an owl's hoot about the welfare of the people who were waterboarded. I believe they only care about attacking the people who were responsible for it, and will use any means and any issue to destroy them if they can."

Why is this a choice we have to make? Why can't we say "I don't believe that the lawyers who gave dubious legal recommendations are at fault" AND "I think KSM was a evil bastard"? Jeffery Dahmer was an evil bastard to, but I don't think WE (not him) deserve to let our police, as a matter of policy, waterboard him 183 times in a month.

We hear all this talk from the Right about proud to be an American, about how our soldiers are fighting for "freedom". Yet back at home, the Right is willingly casting aside rights that we're working to be rescuing other countries from.

Why do so many of you believe that our morality is our greatest weakness rather than our greatest asset??

"I am beginning to suspe... (Below threshold)
Jake:

"I am beginning to suspect the only reason you come here is because its extra income to be reactionary. At least say something intelligent. We're not talking about "daily business", as in computer sales, we're talking about methods of torture in a circumstance of war."

Nice try in swaying the conversation away from what I've been raising and asking. It should have been clear that by "daily business" I meant that activities engaged in, not computer sales. To suggest that I was raising some sort of commerce-focused discussion is just a means of ignoring the questions.

"Your comment suggests that you really don't give a sh*t and just want to call people names. Is that how you "do business" daily in person? It's a lot easier to be rude without cause behind a comment, isn't it?"

Look, I've been called all kinds of names on this site well before I called Kim demented and sad. And I'm sorry, justifying this kind of treatment is demented and sad. Saying that's it's OK to beat someone to death is a conversation I'd LOVE to hear her?him? have with their current/future children.

I love my country every bit as much as you do, so don't think that because I disagree with you, I'm somehow less American or less patriotic. I love my country enough that I want to be the best nation we can be, the more more, the most just, and the most free. And personally, I don't think we can be those things when we disappear people, when we beat people for information, and we we have conversations justifying 183 waterboardings in a month. When our nation has an official policy of treatment that leaves people broken, mentally and/or physically without trial, without counsel, without rule of domestic or international law, I think we've gone seriously off course.

"Why do so many of you beli... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

"Why do so many of you believe that our morality is our greatest weakness rather than our greatest asset??"

Morality of the Feds, the banks, and the govt is almost non-existent. They could care less about Americans, except maybe a handful in congress and the senate. The higher up they are, the less they care about Americans, and it is their lack of morality that has brought us this disastrous economy and infrastructure. I don't know who here you are talking to when you say "so many of you".

Nice try in swaying the con... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

Nice try in swaying the conversation away from what I've been raising and asking.

That "nice try" crap is getting really old, Jake. Find a new shtick, okay? That's fine that you love your country, but you realize that the govt threw us overboard thirty years ago, don't you? You are trying to reform the wrong people. These are opinion pieces that will remain in the category of the Right. The thing you really should be doing is getting together with people that have more to say than "nice try" and agree with you on whatever it is you agree with. That's how you get this moving is to brainstorm with people like you, not to pound on a community board.

Signing an online petition or showing up at a demonstration, writing your congressman is the way to get things done. You don't need to insult the bloggers, because they don't insult you. Sure, you'll hear opinions from commenters, they would be free game, including myself. I am to the point where I really don't care what you call me.

Sorry, I didn't realize the... (Below threshold)
Jake:

Sorry, I didn't realize the charter of this site dictated that a) I shouldn't participate if I disagreed, and b) I REALLY shouldn't participate if the one I disagrees with happens to be the blog poster.

Didn't realize that disagreement was so roundly unacceptable here. Message received. I'll go try to do something so that a blogger can call me a smelly liberal.

Jake,Your vent-mob... (Below threshold)
LaMedusa:

Jake,

Your vent-mobile needs a charge, I see. You didn't actually exceed bandwidth by attempting to blog in the comment section this time. Nobody said "don't disagree", but part of the terms are not attacking the bloggers, and that would include insults. Also, when you say, "Why do so many of you believe that our morality is our greatest weakness..." whom are you really talking to? Have a good evening.

Jake dont go away mad..... ... (Below threshold)
914:

Jake dont go away mad..... Jake just go away

You call the poster of this thread a demented sad person.. jake ..you are the sad person.

Kim (carve a B on my face) ... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

Kim (carve a B on my face) Priestap is at it again with this, and I quote:

"Los Angeles would have been hit and thousands more Americans could have been killed if we didn't extract the information we needed to stop the attack."

WHOA!!!

You better have something to back that up. But you don't. You never have. You are a sick, sad person that will toe your dead party line until your foot is placed on some godforsaken island where you can start your own country that tortures people.

You spit in the face of everything our nation was built on.
depp=true
notiz=Ryan you can leave yesterday

"Am I missing something? Do... (Below threshold)

"Am I missing something? Do I hear people saying that waterboarding of known and unrepentant terrorists is torture, but caving in a defenseless, innocent, unborn's skull with a forceps is not?"

I think waterboarding is torture and I think abortion is murder.

A lot of people have argued that torture is ineffective, but apparently that is not true. I am hesitant to allow my government to torture people to get information, but what else can we do in these situations? We have people who are trying to kill us any way they can; they are not interested in just taking out military forces or leaders, but everyone. It is a total war for them.

Using torture to extract information makes me uneasy because like our founding fathers, I believe that nations degenerate over time. Today we may be torturing terrorists, but tomorrow we may end up torturing people that the state simply calls terrorists. Don't forget that DHS memo, which to me basically says that if you don't support Obama you may be an enemy of the state. I don't want to see my country ending up publishing police manuals like this.

SkyBlue - "What makes y... (Below threshold)
marc:

SkyBlue - "What makes you think they are living in the lap of luxory at Guantánamo Bay?.

This is far late in the thread, but had to remark on this nitwit's ignorance.

Are you so deep in a vat of kool-aid that you would take the word of Binyam Mohamed who lawyered-up and told his "tale of woe" to gain sympathy prior to his release to the U.K?

DON'T answer that, it's a rhetorical question.

His story is TWO years old and none of it has been substantiated. None, should be easy shouldn't it?

After all he allegedly was cut on his poor little tallywacker several times.

Been TWO years and not one single piece of evidence, ya know like pics of his "maimed dick," has ever surfaced.

Why is that skyblue?

P.S. I stand by my assessment, gitmo detainees are living in the lap of luxury, so much so the growing threat there is the detainees are getting FAT like pigs.

Jake"If these techni... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Jake
"If these techniques are such low key techniques, not causing any real harm, would you suggest that we grant the right to perform them to our local policemen to use during THEIR interregation"

Because you really need to know how to do these to be an effective interogator AND to do this without causing permanent injury.

Idiot.

"The discussion SHOULD be about whether we, as a country rooted in justice, is willing to accept these policies as the way we do business daily.
"

If your loved ones die in an attack you will be screaming "Why didnt someone do something to prevent this" all the while wailing about the rights of the terrorists that just killed your family.

JakeLets say you nee... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Jake
Lets say you needed exploratory brain surgery (with your way of thinking we can see why it is nescessary). WHo is more likely to accomplish the surgery succesfully and find out something useful, a local cop OR a trained neurosurgeon? I ask because there are probably more trained neurosurgeons in the country than trained interrogaters of hard core terrorist suspects. Also local criminals arent usually trained in anti interogation techneiques like hard core terrorists usually are.

"Hmm.... checking... yep, nobody said that. Nice strawman attempt though."

Why is abortion a strawman? Babies in the womb feel pain. JUst because you cant answer it and make any sense doesnt make it a strawman or invalid. Unless you want to admit that tearing apart an infant with forceps is worse than causing someone to be in a cramped position.


"Our founders (not just the fathers but the thousands that fought with them) fought AND DIED for freedom."

Glad to see someone acknowledge this. Your fellow Lib Bruce Henry thinks that they were just trying to enhance their resume on his tax dime.

"The debate we are having (whether we Americans agree that an officially sanctioned PROGRAM of ongoing, regular, and largely uninhibited torture and disappearing) is something that's inline with our beliefs as a country."

OH GROW UP. THe fact is, though you will NEVER see it admitted anywhere is that enemies of our country, AND ANY COUNTRY, have been, currently are, and will continue to be "tortured", interrogated harshly, and or threated with their lives since the world has been around. It happens. It is just that in civilized countries noone talks about it and turns a blind eye to it. It is far easier for a world leader to make a body disappear than to have to explain to his countries citizens (especially if he is elected) why 10,000 people died on his watch.

" Jeffery Dahmer was an evil bastard to, but I don't think WE (not him) deserve to let our police, as a matter of policy, waterboard him 183 times in a month. "

The facts are a. it wasnt needed b. he wasnt trained in anti interogation techniques, c. he wasnt a menace to thousands of people.


"It should have been clear that by "daily business" I meant that activities engaged in, not computer sales. "

Yet you continue the strawman of comparing terorists with every day thugs and murderers when they arent.

"And personally, I don't think we can be those things when we disappear people, when we beat people for information, and we we have conversations justifying 183 waterboardings in a month."

Really all this happened in a month? I hadnt heard that. as for the rest of the stuff as I said before it has been happening since time began. It isnt nice but it is a fact of surviving as a nation.

" When our nation has an official policy of treatment that leaves people broken, mentally and/or physically without trial, without counsel, without rule of domestic or international law, I think we've gone seriously off course.
"

When it saves a politicians ass from the voters (Be they socialist, democrat, republican, or a dictator) and when it saves innocent lives than what you think means very little.

"Didn't realize that disagreement was so roundly unacceptable here. Message received. I'll go try to do something so that a blogger can call me a smelly liberal"

Really. Try going to wizbang blue and saying something disagreeable to the commentators. You will get banned quick. Same with DU. Same with lots of liberal sites. Liberals are notoriously not willing to listen to views other than their own.
-----------

Ryan

"You better have something to back that up. But you don't. You never have"

YOu nitwit. They stopped an attack on LA due to the information they got. You not only dont have good reading comprehension you arent very smart either.

"You spit in the face of everything our nation was built on."

This from the person who has the same political veiws of folks who march through the streets saying "down with America", "Hugo Chavez is a hero", etc

If you're a liberal, you ha... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

If you're a liberal, you hate conservatives and see this issue as a golden opportunity to sanctimoniously damage your political enemies while appearing to be morally superior. If so, that tells you what you need to know. It's *TORTURE!!!* and we should hang the bastards responsible as publicly as possible, poking your fingers at the camera lens all the way. Preferably with an up camera angle.

Hillary Clinton's testimony today is a transparent example. She hates Cheney so much she didn't even hear the question she was asked and is incapable of producing a non-partisan answer. She can't get out of the way of her own base emotions and is no longer concerned with truth. Nor will any other partisan hack on Capitol Hill. It's a new day for government harmony and transparency.

But don't confuse this issue with moral or ethical debate, because it's nothing of the sort. This is political kabuki theater. Truth has nothing to do with it, and the left doesn't give a damn about the harm they're causing the country.

When we captured this terro... (Below threshold)
mag:

When we captured this terrorist...what should we do to prevent another attack????
Tickle them, no that is torture too.
How about pouring pig's blood on them, no that is torture too.
How about putting a stuff animal toy (pig) in his cell, no that is torture too.
Watching cartoons of Miss Piggy, NO not that!
I don't want to see my country use torture like explained here either, but seriously what are we to do to prevent attacks?????

JakeThe subject of... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Jake

The subject of this thread is what is real torture.

So answer the following:

Are you contending that it is okay to tear an unborn child limb from limb in an abortion but it isnt okay to put a terrorist in a confined space?

Are you contending that it is okay to suck an unborn childs brain out of its head but it isnt okay to make a terorist stand in a stress position?

Please enlighten us with your American values that you proudly proclaim on these boards.


AP NEws FlashToday... (Below threshold)
retired military:

AP NEws Flash

Today 7 year old James Watson was arraigned in court today on terrorism charges. Mr Watson was accused of locking his classmate 6 year old Susie Smith in a school closet with a frog. Ms Smith, through an ACLU spokesman, was said to be irrevocably scarred from the event and demands the prosecutor try Mr Watson as an adult. AG Holderer is said to be contemplating the vast array of charges in this domestic terrorism case. President Obama had no comment on the ongoing trial and investigation although anonymous administration sources stated that all of Mr Watson's acquaitances were being looked at very closely as possible accomplices. The principal of the school stated that a grief counselor was being brought in on Tuesday when classes are expected to resume. All doors in the building have been removed as a precautionary measure to ensure that this doesnt happen again. Peta protestors were seen outside the jail of Mr Watson's cell demaning that he be tried on hate crimes against animals as well.

In other news, Chicago was destroyed in a nuclear blast. No suspects have been indentified.

this should read the follow... (Below threshold)
retired military:

this should read the following:


In other news, Chicago was destroyed in a nuclear blast. No suspects have been indentified but DHS Janet Napaliatono stated that the boyscouts are being looked at very closely citing their rejection of homosexuals as counselors thus making them a right wing extremist hate group.


(dammit)... thus m... (Below threshold)
retired military:

(dammit)

... thus making them a right wing extremist hate group with militaristic ties.

Ever since chemical interro... (Below threshold)
Chad:

Ever since chemical interrogation became "unpopular" at the CIA, we have had to rely on other means of interrogation. I don't like the idea of torture, but we are dealing with religious fanatics that have no respect for the lives of anyone that believes differently than they do. You do these things (not because you enjoy them) because you have to to save more innocent lives. You do it because if you don't, evil men will do evil things and kill many innocent people.

Ryan, The attack on LA was ... (Below threshold)
JC Hammer:

Ryan, The attack on LA was stopped by an alert Border Control Agent just north of Seattle. The terrorist was bringing in a whole bunch of timers for bombs to be used in Seattle and in LA.

Yes the Geneva Convention does prohibit torture. So Ryan, and Jake, what countries uniforms were they wearing when captured? What standing military from which nation do they belong to?

I suggest some of you read the Geneva Convention about POW's before you cry about how terrorists are treated. I don't condone torture of recognized standing military people, nor do I condone abortion. I do believe women should have free choice when it comes to their bodies.

So Ryan, tell us WHICH COUNTRIES MILITARY do they belong to? And we all know it isn't the Iraq Army.

"If these techniques are... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"If these techniques are such low key techniques, not causing any real harm, would you suggest that we grant the right to perform them to our local policemen to use during THEIR interregation?"

Talk about red herrings. You're comparing common domestic criminals with terrorists, many of whom perform the very types of torture described above.

With all the hand-wringing going on here about the "moral high ground" one must wonder how moral it would be to take no action to save lives because you might make someone uncomfortable to ellicit information and someone else might call you a meanie for it.

I'm still having a hard time trying to understand why people are so shocked at the treatment of a completely evil man like KSM, yet waste no words to express any shock at his own actions or the information that he eventually revealed. Just how evil does someone have to be, and just how despicable an act does someone have to commit to warrant a little roughing up?

Had Los Angeles, or any other city suffered like NY did and it was later found that something like waterboarding a known mass murderer like KSM could have prevented it, would we all be sitting around saying, "Well at least we treated him well."

For all the whining and han... (Below threshold)
MPR:

For all the whining and hand wringing by liberals here. All their heroes in congress knew all about what the CIA was doing and were briefed about the information gleaned from the terrorists. For just a little while the liberals agreed that the Constitution is not a suicide note. Just for a little while.

You want to Know w... (Below threshold)
You want to Know what Real Torture is?
Ever read Wizbangblue?
The hell with the terrorist... (Below threshold)
JC Hammer:

The hell with the terrorists, but this is interesting: In 1983, the Justice Department prosecuted a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies for water boarding prisoners to get them to confess to crimes. The deputies were sentenced to four years in prison and Parker pleaded guilty to extortion and federal civil rights violations and received a 10-year sentence. Yet nowhere in the four "torture" memos released by the Justice Department last week that authorized the CIA to water board detainees do the attorneys who drafted the legal opinions mention the federal case U.S. v Parker et al, in which San Jacinto County Sheriff James Parker and three deputies-- Carl Lee, Floyd Allen Baker and John Glover--were found guilty of torturing at least six prisoners between 1976 and 1980 in a rural part of the state 60 miles outside of Houston.
One of the key legal arguments contained in Bybee's Aug. 1, 2002 legal memo was that water boarding, which was used on three alleged "high-value" detainees a combined 266 times in the span of one month, was not torture because it does not "inflict physical pain." "However, you should be aware that there are no cases construing this statute, just as there have been no prosecutions brought under it," Bybee wrote.

So yes, water boarding could be called torture, guess it depends on what a person wants to believe in.

I have come closer to drown... (Below threshold)
MPR:

I have come closer to drowning in my life than the terrorists. In a pool and a dam spill way when I was young before I knew how to swim. I've been caught in rip tides body surfing while growing up in So.Cal. While diving in Hawaii, when I lived there. I haven't been scared for life. I just developed a healthy respect for the water. Geez.

"Had Los Angelos, or any... (Below threshold)
914:

"Had Los Angelos, or any other city suffered like NY did and it was later found that something like waterboarding a known mass murderer like KSM could have prevented it, would we all be sitting around saying, " well at least we treated him well."

The trolls on here would.. Cause' they see the good in all terrorists and who knows? they may be a potential voting block.

The Geneva Convention defin... (Below threshold)
Mark L:

The Geneva Convention defines those captured at GITMO as "Illegal Combatants." They are not Prisoners of War, and are not entitled to the protections of POWs.

If we shot them out of hand -- with no trial -- that would be consistent with the Geneva Conventions. I only wish we would treat them in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

Jake proudly says our found... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Jake proudly says our founding fathers would be against this. So untrue. These are the founding fathers that knew innocent blood was going to be spilled by thier actions. They hanged spys, immediately. They put people in stocks and whipped them. They knew pratically what had to be done to win a war. Truman knew. Johnson didn't. Bush I and II did. Barry doesn't.

Don't forget about our founding fathers slavery treatment also. What I get from my founding fathers is not to hide behind their words but to know that to preserve this democracy, at times things get rough and ugly. That is the price for war. We did not start this war, but you extreme lefties seem to forget that.

If your child is abducted and you caught one of the guys, would you just make sure everyone took good care of the guy or would you be more concerned at finding your kid at any cost? If you choose the former, you are what is wrong with this country. ww

I recently watched someone ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I recently watched someone volunteer to be waterboarded. He was a liberal trying to prove a point. He was waterboarded by a man with a ski mask on. He looked to be military and appeared to know what he was doing. He told the liberal exactly what he would feel and why. The liberal stated he believed he could endure waterboarding for atleast 15 seconds and had made a bet accordingly. He lasted no more than 5 seconds before he signaled he had enough. He was never in danger of injury, he was aware of what was done to him and he still panicked. What I saw was a lot of things, but torture was not one of them. Those who say they believe waterboarding is torture are either intellectually dishonest or ignorant. If that proceedure saved lives, great. I would have preferred something a little more painful to extract the information from these killers.

Hammer, too bad you know no... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Hammer, too bad you know not of what you speak. The incident in question had to to with an Asian branch of al Qaeda hijacking an aeroplane to crash into the Library Tower in LA, not some other incident you want to throw into the mix. Since you do not have access to the secret documents held by the CIA and what the positive results of the methods used by professionals to extract information from people who would delight in murdering your children, if you have any, in some gruesome manner before your eyes, were. You are just wildly speculating. Since you assu ( you are making an ass of u, not me) to know what you do not. You honesty can be called into question. But I knew all that before I started to write this.

How do you know if someone ... (Below threshold)
WorldCitizen:

How do you know if someone has useful information before you torture them?

I guess the "it is better to let 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail" sentiment has left the blog. What if you were the innocent man?

The LA plot was allegedly f... (Below threshold)
groucho:

The LA plot was allegedly foiled in 2002. KSM wasn't captured until March of 03. So information he gave up after being waterboarded helped break up a plot that had been broken up the year before? How does that work, exactly?

It might pay to remember that most of those touting all of the useful info that was obtained through torture are members of the same crime family that claimed it would be a short, relatively painless and low-cost venture to relieve Saddam of all his WMDs.

Those who say they... (Below threshold)
Those who say they believe waterboarding is torture are either intellectually dishonest or ignorant.

This is a bit overblown. The British journalist Christopher Hitchens volunteered to be waterboarded and wrote an interesting article about it; his conclusion was that it was torture, but there was enough information contained in the article to lead me to the opposite conclusion.

Of course, my main argument is with the premise of the article itself, i.e. that Hitchens volunteered to have this done to him. Nobody volunteers to have their fingernails torn out or their genitals wired to a car battery.

You're right Kim, waterboar... (Below threshold)

You're right Kim, waterboarding is much less dishonorable and dispicable than what you described above, and yet still...dishonorable and dispicable.

I find it ironic that people who in the past have so accurately skewered the left for their moral relativism, are so very good at it themselves when it comes to this issue.

It's not REAL torture? Seriously? This is your argument? How bad does it have to be? Where's the line? How far down do we have to sink before it's bad enough?

I knew this blog was shifting far right and with JayTea gone it's been lacking a lot of plain old common sense, but you really want to be the folks that are pro "oh it's not really torture?"

#62: When you already know... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

#62: When you already know the person is a ringleader/mastermind, you can be pretty sure he knows more than he will tell you over tea.

Of all of the people sent to Gitmo, how many do you think they waterboarded?

As for where waterboarding lies on the torture scale... hot iron pokers up the rectum, pulling of nails, pliers to nipples and many fraternity initiation rituals rank higher than CIA waterboarding.

The LA plot was al... (Below threshold)
The LA plot was allegedly foiled in 2002. KSM wasn't captured until March of 03. So information he gave up after being waterboarded helped break up a plot that had been broken up the year before? How does that work, exactly?

I think you're a little confused. I don't tink the guy who was detained at the border was related to what KSM gave up:

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the "Second Wave"-- planned " 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles."

That building was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast.

The LA plot was al... (Below threshold)
The LA plot was allegedly foiled in 2002. KSM wasn't captured until March of 03. So information he gave up after being waterboarded helped break up a plot that had been broken up the year before? How does that work, exactly?

You really should sit up and pay attention in class.

Yes, a portion of the cell which originally targeted the tower in LA was broken up in 2002. The remainder, however, continued to be active and continued to develop the plan.

Remember how the WTC was hit in 1993 and then again in 2001. Interesting how that happened huh?

KSM told our interrogators all about the LA plot after getting his face washed.

The information that he offered up during his interrogation is the reason that the building in LA is still standing.

The released CIA memos prove that what I am saying is true but, by all means, don't let those facts get in the way of a good story.

One thing you will notice i... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

One thing you will notice is whenever anybody is asked how we should illicit intelligence information from a terrorist detainee if waterboarding is no longer an option all you hear is silence and the occasional chirping cricket. Liberals are famous for knowing what we cannot do and what doesn't work but they have no solutions to the serious problems we face in today's dangerous world. I want serious answers - not some lame "there are other ways short of torture" kind of response. If there were better ways to get the same results I suspect they would be doing it. When I read the memos what I saw was a very thoughtful process and not a rush to use objectionable methods.

Thousands and thousands of US special forces and other military personnel have been waterboarded as part of a training known as SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape). Supposedly a study was done about the effects of waterboarding and the military found no long-term physical or mental harm resulted from the procedure. While one can agree or disagree about what is and is not torture but one would have to put waterboarding on a different scale than what people like John McCain went through in Vietnam. Usually torture involves long lasting and even permanent physical and/or mental disability.

The most frustrating aspect of all this is the lack of any solutions coming from those who oppose such methods. They proudly claim the high ground and refuse to concede that there is a possibility that we may see another 9/11 style attack or worse because we don't use such methods which have proven effective. That is a patently dishonest position for them to take and I am offended by it. Obama famously refers to this dilemma as being a "false choice" but he is the one that is not being honest. There may be other methods short of waterboarding that might achieve the same results but I don't know what this would be and I am not hearing any answers. We are not having an honest debate here and that is what I and many others find troubling. The Obama Administration does not want one either which is why they are not releasing any memos or other evidence that show what the CIA has already claimed and that is these enhance interrogation methods worked. Hell, the Obama Administration even edited the comments of their own Director of National Intelligence when he made the same basic claim so that his comments more closely matched their own views on the subject.

Those on the left can demonize the Bush Administration all they want but they will NEVER sway people like me when they don't want to be serious and honest about the debate and at least consider the potential consequences of what the Obama Administration is doing by taking these options completely off the table and at the same time telling our enemies the limits we are now abiding by when it comes to attempting to extract intelligence information. All I can say is good luck gathering information in the future because all we will be able to do now is pray that nothing bad will happen as a result. Probably the thing I find most dishonest is this notion from liberals that the Bush Administration has somehow shamed the country in a way no other has done before or after. What is being done is that the Bush Administration is being held to a far higher standard and those on the left are naive in believing that things that are far worse were not done before Bush took office. The difference is the media did their job far differently than they do now. I will not debate the right or wrongs of this here as it would take too long but one has to admit the salient fact that information that damages national security is often reported on today and it never would have happened in earlier eras.

I love the government and n... (Below threshold)
WorldCitizen:

I love the government and nobody who works for the government would ever lie about anything the government did or did not do or the benefits achieved by doing or not doing anything. Trust your government!!! You left wing wackos. They are only there to keep you safe.

How many interrogation videos were destroyed? Of course they would have just been fodder for the left to feed on, but the right could have used them to vindicate their frat party comparisons.

You want to Know what Re... (Below threshold)

You want to Know what Real Torture is?

Going to Wizbang Blue?

You're right Kim, ... (Below threshold)
You're right Kim, waterboarding is much less dishonorable and dispicable than what you described above, and yet still...dishonorable and dispicable.

Why? What, precisely, is your objection to it? It causes distress, but no pain, leaves no mark, causes no physical damage and the victim is in absolutely no danger at any time.

So what's your objection?

"One thing you will notice ... (Below threshold)
bryanD:

"One thing you will notice is whenever anybody is asked how we should illicit intelligence information from a terrorist detainee if waterboarding is no longer an option all you hear is silence and the occasional chirping cricket."-patrick

Bush was warned of the 9/11 attacks weeks before the event in an intelligence document passed to him through Condoleeza Rice. NORAD was not alerted, of course, Bush being Bush.

Bush was warned of... (Below threshold)
Bush was warned of the 9/11 attacks weeks before the event in an intelligence document passed to him through Condoleeza Rice. NORAD was not alerted, of course, Bush being Bush.

This is pretty much a lie straight from bryanD's febrile imagination. The "warning" went something like this, "Al Qaeda may be plotting to attack us sometime". That was about it. No details, no evidence, no actionable intelligence, no nothing.

Yeah, too bad Bush didn't have ESP.

Bush was warned of... (Below threshold)
Bush was warned of the 9/11 attacks weeks before the event in an intelligence document passed to him through Condoleeza Rice.

Oh, do you mean the PDB titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US"?

Is that the document that you mean?

Yeah.

We already knew that OBL was determined to do that. We knew that part since way back in 1993.

Show me anything in that PDB that was new.

Show me any actionable, specific, usable information in that PDB.

Show me anything in that PDB that would have assisted us in knowing precisely what OBL had planned.

Show me.

Otherwise you're pontificating.

Again.

"otherwise you're pontifica... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

"otherwise you're pontificating..."

Isn't that what blogging's all about?

bryanD:Why don't y... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

bryanD:

Why don't you answer MY questions instead of trying to change the subject by bringing up something totally unrelated? That is the problem with arguing with most liberals - they like the drive-by style of arguing because they are too stupid or lazy to actually discuss anything intelligently. Bush knew about increasing terrorist chatter but there were no specifics as to what form these attacks were going to take, how they were going to happen and where. So shut up already. When the next attacks come - and they will probably sooner rather than later - good luck defending your liberal god Obamalala who thought he could charm the world with a bow, handshake and a smile. I have news for you: the terrorists hate us as much now as they ever have. The only difference is now they are laughing at us rather than cowering in fear and false bravado. They are getting their swagger back and the ordinary American citizen is going to pay a horrible price for Obama's utter incompetence and naivety.

Submission accomplished indeed...

Otherwise you're p... (Below threshold)
Otherwise you're pontificating.

And if by "pontificating" you mean "lying like a cheap rug", I'd agree.

First, Timmer, you don't li... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

First, Timmer, you don't like it here because we don't embrace terrorists, I mean man people who do harm to us, go. No one is stopping you. Bye, bye.

Patrick, you make a lot of sense. It is wasted on the terrorist loving trolls. ww

bryanD...sorry dude, but yo... (Below threshold)

bryanD...sorry dude, but you're wrong. I was working at NORAD on 9/11 and OregonMuse almost has the wording verbatim. We knew Al Queda was planning SOMEthing. That was it. We didn't know when, we didn't know what.

My objection to waterboarding is that it's a cowardly, dishonorable, and just plain slimy way of doing business. To repeat myself from the last thread, it's not who we are as Americans. Bad guys use torture/coercion, whatever you want to call it. We're supposed to be the good guys. I say and will continue to say, that America is better than that.

In every class on Law of Armed Conflict that I had in the military, whether taught by the Air Force, the Army, or the Navy, we were taught to always treat captured prisoners with respect and honor, DESPITE how they may have treated us. Why? Because we're the United States of America. We stand for freedom, justice, and human dignity. THAT'S who we are.

My objection to wa... (Below threshold)
My objection to waterboarding is that it's a cowardly, dishonorable, and just plain slimy way of doing business.

But why? You're not really giving a substantive answer, you're just restating your original objection using slightly different adjectives. But it just begs the same question.

What is it about waterboarding that makes it cowardly and dishonorable? As I said previously, it does not cause bodily damage and is not in the least dangerous. So what, exactly, is the problem with it?

Timmer,If these were... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Timmer,
If these were POWs from another uniformed force I'd agree with you. Treat civilized nations' as such. We are not dealing with such men. We are dealing with men that actively seek civilian causalities, the more and the more despicable the better.

Timmer:I appreciat... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

Timmer:

I appreciate your service to the nation and your opinions on this subject. But I have to ask you what should we do to get the information we need from these captured terrorist detainees? If you want to really contribute to this debate you have to tell us what methods will work. You simply cannot answer that the people now in charge know what is best and what will work because I suspect that is what the people in the Bush Administration were doing. They made a determination and they acted in good faith and by all accounts they were successful in getting actionable intelligence information using these enhanced interrogation techniques. Why do people assume they did not try everything else first before they waterboarded these few detainees? What is the mythical method that isn't torture (by your definition) that is going to get the results we desire and prevents the next attack? I am waiting for an answer and unless any of you who are demonizing Bush and Cheney can answer this question than I simply cannot take you very seriously. You may claim the moral high ground but not everybody recognizes that you in fact hold that lofty position. Some of us say that saving thousands of American lives as a result of using these methods which by all indication have not caused lasting physical or mental disability gives us the same superiority.

I don't take issues like this lightly but at some point you have to make difficult moral choices to preserve the freedoms we currently enjoy because their are some dreadful alternatives in this dangerous world that might be forced upon us if we don't act strongly enough to resist them. While we should strive for perfection as often as possible we should not rely on that standard to save us from all evil that exists out there because not everybody plays by the same rules. Compared to other things this nation has done in the past I am afraid that I cannot summon the kind of outrage we are seeing from the left on this issue especially when they choose to ignore past transgressions as if they never happened. The notion that somehow evil began and ended with the Bush Administration is an outright lie and completely outrageous. This has become ultimately a political issue for them and they want blood and revenge and ultimately this is not a healthy development for this country at this time - especially when they don't want to have a serious debate about this issue and what the potential consequences are of of going down this road. This should be more than about partisan politics and a lust for power - this is ultimately about people's lives.

The far right, are basicall... (Below threshold)
jmc:

The far right, are basically just like the Nazi's. A cowardly scumbag like Kim would never under go water boarding herself. But will complain it is not torture, even though it was used by the Spanish inquisition. An institution I'm sure a crazy sadist like Kim, would also support.
depp=true
notiz=Elvis has left the building.

jc hammer - "In 1983, t... (Below threshold)
marc:

jc hammer - "In 1983, the Justice Department prosecuted a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies for water boarding prisoners to get them to confess to crimes. The deputies were sentenced to four years in prison and Parker pleaded guilty to extortion and federal civil rights violations and received a 10-year sentence. Yet nowhere in the four "torture" memos released by the Justice Department last week that authorized the CIA to water board detainees do the attorneys who drafted the legal opinions mention the federal case U.S. v Parker et al, in which San Jacinto County Sheriff James Parker and three deputies-- Carl Lee, Floyd Allen Baker and John Glover--"

Geesh... confused much?!

Lets compare shall we?

The Sheriff James Parker and three deputies were and still are U.S. citizens and subject to U.S. criminal code.

The three jihadist-cut-throats that were waterboarded were NOT citizens, NOT in the U.S. and because they were not acting under a flag of an internationally recognized country and didn't wear the uniform of a recognized military they ARE NOT covered by the Geneva Conventions.

jmc - "The far right, a... (Below threshold)
marc:

jmc - "The far right, are basically just like the Nazi's. A cowardly scumbag like Kim would never under go water boarding herself."

And of course you not being a "cowardly scumbag like Kim" would offer your sorry ass for waterboarding every day and twice on Sunday.

Right?

The three jihadis... (Below threshold)
jmc:
The three jihadist-cut-throats that were waterboarded were NOT citizens, NOT in the U.S. and because they were not acting under a flag of an internationally recognized country and didn't wear the uniform of a recognized military they ARE NOT covered by the Geneva Conventions


The supreme court ruled 5-3 in 2006 that Enemy combatants ARE covered under the Geneva convention.

Confused much, or just lying?

and of course you... (Below threshold)
jmc:
and of course you not being a "cowardly scumbag like Kim" would offer your sorry ass for waterboarding every day and twice on Sunday.

No stupid. I think it's torture.

u dem - ""otherwise you... (Below threshold)
marc:

u dem - ""otherwise you're pontificating..." Isn't that what blogging's all about?

Aside from the fact you used the above quote and your answer as a way to avoid answering a valid question is the fact you haven't clue #1 what the word pontificating means.

pon⋅tif⋅i⋅cate - "to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner"

Put another way, you're full of sh*t

From Roger ebert: ... (Below threshold)
jmc:

From Roger ebert:

"December 2002, an Afghan named Dilawar had scraped together enough money to buy a taxi. He was fingered by a paid informant as a terrorist connected with a rocket attack. Taken to the American prison at Bagram, Afghanistan, he was tortured so violently that he died after five days. An autopsy showed that his legs were so badly mauled, they would have had to be amputated, had he lived. Later, the informant who collected U.S. money for fingering him was proven to be the terrorist actually responsible for the crime the innocent Dilawar was charged with."

That informant was paid $5000 for his cooperation. Tell us how proud this makes you feel Kim.

jmc - "The supreme cour... (Below threshold)
marc:

jmc - "The supreme court ruled 5-3 in 2006 that Enemy combatants ARE covered under the Geneva convention."

Someone is confused, and or lying, but it isn't me.

High Court Rejects Detainee Tribunals - 5 to 3 Ruling Curbs President's Claim Of Wartime Power.

That ruling had everything to do with the tribunals and nothing with respect to other articles of the Conventions.

As a result of the Supreme Court decision Congress passed a bill authorizing Military Commissions in accordance with guidelines set by the Court.

And BTW, a valid argument can be made obama is in violation of this law when he suspended the the trials.

From Roger ebert</... (Below threshold)
From Roger ebert

Roger Ebert?

We're citing movie critics now?

Movie critics?

Cool....I'm gonna give this guy a call:

http://barbarah.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/gene_shalit_list_view.jpg

marclollllllll....... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

marc

lollllllll......speaking of pontificating!!!!!!!!!! You invented it.

(Now go ahead and swear and call me names.)

How's it feel to be utterly and completely w/o a sense of humor?

jmc,You're quoting a... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

jmc,
You're quoting a movie review...

Great another moronic post.... (Below threshold)
jmc:

Great another moronic post. Aye chi-stupid, Ebert was giving his commentary on what happen because it was documented in the film taxi to the darkside.

I posted his write up because he explains what happend succinctly the facts are well documented.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?ei=5088&en=4579c146cb14cfd6&ex=1274241600&pagewanted=all

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jun/23/usa.afghanistan


And many more places. Now that we have established the source was corrct and you are an idiot. Tell us how proud you are an inocent man was tortured to death. I'm sure you are as big a sadist as Kim.

The Shah of Iran that the a... (Below threshold)
Paul Hooson:

The Shah of Iran that the allies helped to put into power during WWII to fight the Axis was allowed to practice torture for many years after the war until his fall during the Islamic Revolution, and the U.S. was blamed for keeping this regime in power and allowing this torture. Torture is a terrible public relations item.

My own grandfather, Captain John Einarson had his own large merchant ship seized by the Japanese Navy during WWII, and he was brutally flogged in an attempt to get information out of him where he was delivering supplies to American troops to. But he held out against their abuse because he had an obligation to save lives. Other times torture only gets false confessions just to stop the pain, so often the information gained from torture is completely useless.

I personally thought that it was wrong that my grandfather was tortured by the Japanese who were trying to get information from him, however some here seem to want to justify such torture to get information by rivals in war or in other conflicts.

<a href="http://www.washing... (Below threshold)
jmc:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/26/AR2007042601569.html

it's another review of the movie (factually correct) but it has a picture of Dilawar. You can look at his face and tell us all how good you feel about him being tortured to death.

Thanks marc.You be... (Below threshold)

Thanks marc.

You beat me to it in #91.

jmc - ""December 2002, ... (Below threshold)
marc:

jmc - ""December 2002, an Afghan named Dilawar ....

No one should be proud of what happened, that said this and a few others are the exception rather than the rule and in this case James P. Boland was charged with assault and dereliction and convicted in the deaths. Another, Pfc. Willie V. Brand, was charged with striking Dilawar 37 times and maiming him. He was convicted, after which his rank was reduced to private.

u dem "How's it feel to... (Below threshold)
marc:

u dem "How's it feel to be utterly and completely w/o a sense of humor?"

How does it feel to be outed as clueless when challenged to provide what Bush would have done as a result of reading the PDB?

Here's your chance to redeem yourself. Go ahead.

jmc - "The suprem... (Below threshold)
jmc:
jmc - "The supreme court ruled 5-3 in 2006 that Enemy combatants ARE covered under the Geneva convention."

Someone is confused, and or lying, but it isn't me.

High Court Rejects Detainee Tribunals - 5 to 3 Ruling Curbs President's Claim Of Wartime Power.

That ruling had everything to do with the tribunals and nothing with respect to other articles of the Conventions.

As a result of the Supreme Court decision Congress passed a bill authorizing Military Commissions in accordance with guidelines set by the Court.


No you are confused or are lying...again.

n Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (29 June 2006) the US Supreme Court did not rule on the subject of unlawful combatant status but did reaffirm that the US is bound by the Geneva Conventions. Most notably it said that Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention, regarding the treatment of detainees, applies to all prisoners in the War on Terror.


Common article 3 from the G... (Below threshold)
jmc:

Common article 3 from the Geneva convention.

The supreme cour ruled this applies to all Detainees in the war on terror.

1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed 'hors de combat' by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) taking of hostages;

(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

marcYou've now gon... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

marc

You've now gone insane. Is it the anger? Is it that you're wildwillie's twin brother?

I wrote NOTHING about Bush and the PDB. I made no COMMENT about Bush and the PDB. I made no ALLEGATION about Bush and the PDB.

Geez man you are just plain nuts.

Are you man enough to apologize?

hooson - "Other times t... (Below threshold)
marc:

hooson - "Other times torture only gets false confessions just to stop the pain, so often the information gained from torture is completely useless."

Here's an intellectual exercise for you.

Lets say the Portland OR police haul in a suspect in a murder case, the case as it stands is weak, as a result the suspect undergoes interrogation.

The suspect not wanting to implicate himself gives a list of names and places these people live and he claims were the killer/killers.

Knowing the case is weak what do you do? Do you say to yourself no this guy is full of shit has given us false info and ignore it or... do you track down each and every possible lead he gave?

In short, so? A terrorist might give false info, but you follow the lead given until proven false. To do otherwise is a failure to do the job you're paid to do.

No one should be ... (Below threshold)
jmc:
No one should be proud of what happened, that said this and a few others are the exception rather than the rule and in this case James P. Boland was charged with assault and dereliction and convicted in the deaths. Another, Pfc. Willie V. Brand, was charged with striking Dilawar 37 times and maiming him. He was convicted, after which his rank was reduced to private.

This is one of the most extreme cases granted. No one has died from waterboarding (although it is possible to do so) but no one has died from mock executions either. The torment is extreme and psychological.

In May 2008 the journalist Christopher Hitchens voluntarily experienced waterboarding. He managed to resist for twelve seconds the first time, and, embarrassed at his poor performance, he asked to try again. He then managed to resist for 19 seconds.[42] He later told the BBC: "There is a common misconception that waterboarding simulates the sensation of drowning, but you are to all intents and purposes actually drowning".[42] He said that although he was somewhat prepared for his ordeal, he had not been prepared for what came later: "I have been waking up with sensations of being smothered".[42] Hitchens concluded, "if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture. Believe me. It's torture".

Also Did I mention the khmer Rouge use to waterboard?

u dem, yep your right... th... (Below threshold)
marc:

u dem, yep your right... that was the other nutzoid bryanD, Sorry.

Now you wanna try "pontificating" again?

>Hitchens concluded, "if wa... (Below threshold)
Kenny:

>Hitchens concluded, "if waterboarding does not constitute torture,
>then there is no such thing as torture. Believe me. It's torture".


I'll believe him when he voluntarily submits to other forms of torture so he can make a valid comparison. (See list quoted in Kims post for a starting point, then look at some of the techniques used in Abu Ghraib prison under Saddam Husseins regime for more ideas of real torture).

I find it hard to consider Waterboarding as torture when so many people voluntarily have it done to them.

Marc, here's a major legal ... (Below threshold)
Paul Hooson:

Marc, here's a major legal problem with your example here. If a confession was forced from a suspect due to torture, it could thrown out of court and the prosecution have no case to pursue.

This idea that it's great to torture suspects only means that some cases will be completely dismissed. And information gained from such forced confessions is often false or wrong, simply to stop the pain or abuse.

Some suspects will leave plenty of incriminating evidence behind that can be gained through a legal search warrant, while other suspects will generate enough illegal conduct along the way to justify search warrants for phone taps, etc. to either prevent a crime from taking place or their arrest after the fact of a crime.

With regards to terror suspects, the Bush Administration blurred the legal line behind handling the cases as a criminal one or a prisoner of war issue, not wanting to follow the legal rules for either leaving a lot of legal issues out there that the nation is still dealing with. That's why this nation is still debating the "waterboarding" of just two terror suspects over 200 times.

ZRIII, you are the ass u. T... (Below threshold)
JC Hammer:

ZRIII, you are the ass u. The border crossing guard did stop a terrorist with timers, and they were meant for LA and Seattle. What part of that don't you understand? Where did I mention that it was part of what incident? And I'm also sure that the CIA lets you read their secret memo's.

Nice try, but typical BS from you, as always.

"I'll believe him when he v... (Below threshold)
jmc:

"I'll believe him when he voluntarily submits to other forms of torture so he can make a valid comparison. (See list quoted in Kims post for a starting point, then look at some of the techniques used in Abu Ghraib prison under Saddam Husseins regime for more ideas of real torture).

I find it hard to consider Waterboarding as torture when so many people voluntarily have it done to them. "


I wish some of you would voluntarily have it done before you go trying to do it to other people.

btw click on the wikipedia link below (it has a copy of the painting Vann nath did about his experiences being waterboarded by the khmer Rouge it resides in the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

oh btw "based on the testim... (Below threshold)
jmc:

oh btw "based on the testimonies from more than 35,000 victims, of the Pinochet regime, the Chilean Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture concluded that to provoke a near death experience, by waterboarding, is torture"

Whohoo Kim! let's emulate the Khmer Rouge and Pinochet!

Paul:Enhanced inte... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

Paul:

Enhanced interrogation techniques are not about obtaining confessions! Where have you been all this time? It is about gathering intelligence information which is then verified against other sources. But I can see that you clearly favor the law enforcement approach to combatting terrorism and this method was proven to be an abject failure and 9/11 was the culmination of that failed policy. And information obtained via such techniques is not necessarily unreliable as the facts have shown.

I am still waiting to hear from all of you smart people out there as to what interrogation techniques will work that you don't find objectionable. Your continual silence proves my point that you people on the left are not serious about this issue. If you have the alleged expertise as to know what is torture and what isn't and that torture does not work than you are also smart enough to tell us what is the proper way to forward and the answer cannot be "whatever The One says it is" because we only know what he won't do to get valuable intelligence information and not what he will do to get it to keep us safe. I am of the opinion that he is not serious about this issue because he is arrogant enough to think that the world likes him so much that nobody would dare do us harm. I am not willing to take that to the bank - no sale.

Add Patric to the list of s... (Below threshold)
jmc:

Add Patric to the list of sadists, giving us more of the long line of moronic fallacies.


You want methods that work watch the World war II interrogators that got plenty of information from the Nazi's without torture (See taxi to the dark side and you can smile about the guy who gets beaten to death as a sadistic bonus)


Intelligence experts have all pointed out that you get bad information from torture.

The daily show mocked the stupidity of torture it went something like this:

Interrogator: "What's the capital of Kansas?!"

suspect: "I don't know!"

He is waterboarded.

Suspect: " Oh god please stop!"

Interrogator: "What the capitcal of Kansas?!!!"

Suspect: "Ahhhhhh, Kansas City!! Kansas City!!!

Interrogator: "See John it works."

John Stewart: "The capital of Kansas is Topeka."


jmc:For every inte... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

jmc:

For every intelligence expert you cite that claims you don't get reliable information from torture (and I still don't agree that waterboarding as was done in this instance is torture because the lives of the people it was done to were not in danger nor were their any long term physical or mental consequences) I can cite experts that disagree and say that it can be an effective interrogation method. Citing The Daily Show as being a serious source that contributes to this debate does you little credit but it hardly surprises me.

As for you labeling me a sadist, I have to say how liberal of you. Liberals love to label people and clearly you are no different. You are a hater and I feel sorry for you. I envision you wearing a Che t-shirt which is another sign that the "useful idiots" theory is alive and well. Che was the famous coward who took great pride at shooting unarmed people in the back - but there was never any evidence he waterboarded anybody so he must have been one of the good guys. Liberals love to celebrate real tyrants while demonizing imaginary ones...

#114irony of the m... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

#114

irony of the moment: "Liberals love to label people..."

Next sentence:"You are a hater....."

You ought to proof your comments before you're "labeled" a hypocrite Patrick.

Patrick, you are wasting yo... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Patrick, you are wasting your skills of persuasive argument with the extreme lefty lot. They do not come here to be enlightened. They come to mock, denigrate, get the nazi name somewhere, oh yeah, now we are stuck on Pinochet.

We do not use enhanced interrogations unless intel without a doubt proves the terrorist knows of the time and date of a plan, or other such. You lefties are nuts. I would do all I could to protect your children from being killed but it seems you would not do the same for me. Thanks.

Someone above beat me to it, but if you volunteer to try something that at any time you can stop and the only inconvenience you ever experienced was you bagel was burnt at the deli, what is Hichens framework for comparison. ww

WWYou're damn righ... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

WW

You're damn right I don't come here to be enlightened. Why? Look in your mirror.

Unrepentant Democrat:... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

Unrepentant Democrat:

I stand by my statement - jmc is an unhinged hater and he does NOTHING to advance the debate here and never has. He cites The Daily Show as proof that he somehow owns the high moral ground. Not one of you liberals here has answered a single question I have asked in my many posts. The only think that has happened is I am labeled a sadist. As a response, I called out jmc as a hater and for that you call me a hypocrite. It becomes pointless to discuss anything of substance with people like you because you have nothing to debate with except liberal talking points which are backed up with no real solutions. All you guys do is attack conservatives as fascists who deserve nothing less than prison or death yet you refuse to concede that the policies for which we support are responsible for nearly eight years of safety and your continued ability to continue to spout complete and utter nonsense without being a labeled by the DHS as left-wing extremist threats prone to violence and acts of terrorism.

jmc - "Intelligence exp... (Below threshold)
marc:

jmc - "Intelligence experts have all pointed out that you get bad information from torture."

All of them jmc? Are you sure?

jmc - "n May 2008 the journalist Christopher Hitchens voluntarily experienced waterboarding."

Hitchens although at one time was an avowed [far?] "leftest," more recently many have claimed he was more center-right. That said, Hitchens joined as one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit challenging Bush's warrantless domestic spying program.

Make of that what you will.

But I'll trump your Hitchens' quote with this Playboy writer who was waterboarded just recently. And he believes the practice is "torture."

But also note his BS implication that those the CIA has waterboarded have a choice of talking or die.

Question: Will those that think this practice is "torture" start a write the Congress campaign to stop the U.S. Military from waterboarding Navy Seals and those that go thru SERE training?

JMC said"The far r... (Below threshold)
retired military:

JMC said

"The far right, are basically just like the Nazi's. "

And Obama and the left believes that infanticide via abortion is just plain dandy while making terrorists stand up in a broom closet is torture.

Conservatives, you took us ... (Below threshold)
Herman:

Conservatives, you took us all on a horrible taxi ride to your evil dark side. Because of you, conservatives, we're in absolutely no position to criticize the United Arab Emirates for their lack of justice toward the sadistic sheik; they'll just point to your Bush Administration letting those who tortured Dilawar to death off with a slap on the wrist rather than with life sentences. No, we in the U.S. don't have a leg to stand on, so we'll have to leave it to the Europeans to strongly condemn the sheik.

Conservatives, there are consequences of your wickedness. Deal with it.

jmc is going to start linki... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

jmc is going to start linking to People Magazine pretty soon.

UD, you are a bomb thrower and love to pitch the same old tired rantings of the KOS variety towards conservatives. You are cheap and predictable. ww

herman - "Because of yo... (Below threshold)
marc:

herman - "Because of you, conservatives, we're in absolutely no position to criticize the United Arab Emirates for their lack of justice toward the sadistic sheik; they'll just point to your Bush Administration letting those who tortured Dilawar to death off with a slap on the wrist rather than with life sentences."

Well then, as an "expert" on the UAE you must have some inside baseball type info to support that stance.

How many of the Sheiks of the 7 UAE Emirates have you conversed with to verify your assertion?

Lacking that, you're just dealing with unsubstantiated BS.

jmc is going to s... (Below threshold)
jmc:
jmc is going to start linking to People Magazine pretty soon.

UD, you are a bomb thrower and love to pitch the same old tired rantings of the KOS variety towards conservatives. You are cheap and predictable. ww

WW, I often wonder if you really are the missing link. Here that whoosh sound? That was the sound everything going over your head.


Addendum for Herman - "... (Below threshold)
marc:

Addendum for Herman - "No, we in the U.S. don't have a leg to stand on, so we'll have to leave it to the Europeans to strongly condemn the sheik."

Who might those Europeans be?

The France? Sorry, no leg to stand on there, they're accused of human rights violations.

Germany? Sorry, they are accused as well.

Spain? Nope, big trouble from Human Rights Watch for them.

Herman, not many legs to stnad on, what's up?

For every intelli... (Below threshold)
jmc:
For every intelligence expert you cite that claims you don't get reliable information from torture (and I still don't agree that waterboarding as was done in this instance is torture because the lives of the people it was done to were not in danger nor were their any long term physical or mental consequences)

"The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death.

Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/02/14/050214fa_fact6


Also, if a group of thugs broke into your house tonight, grabbed you and your family tied you up, took you to a field, pulled out guns and told you they were going to blow you and your family away, had you kneel and say your goodbyes, then stood up to shoot you, and after pulling the trigger it turns out their guns fired blanks; guess what? You and your family could go to McDonalds and have happy meals after this because no harm came to you. I'd still call it torture.


I can cite experts that disagree and say that it can be an effective interrogation method. Citing The Daily Show as being a serious source that contributes to this debate does you little credit but it hardly surprises me.

Talk amount missing the point. I was using the daily show to demonstrate the abusurdity of thinking you are going to get any reliable information from torture. The source is unimportant. What is important is the logical idiocy of thinking torture is worthwhile. it woldn't matter if i got that from a charlie brown episode what is relevent is that people will scream anyhting to get you to stop torturing them.

Che was the famous coward who took great pride at shooting unarmed people in the back - but there was never any evidence he waterboarded anybody so he must have been one of the good guys.

I suppose as a conservative you must support pinochet, right? Talk about generalizing.

As for you labeling me a sadist, I have to say how liberal of you

I stand by my statement. Anyone who supports torture is an unhinged lunatic who should never be taken seriously in a debate of any kind

All you guys ... (Below threshold)
jmc:

All you guys do is attack conservatives as fascists who deserve nothing less than prison or death yet you refuse to concede that the policies for which we support are responsible for nearly eight years of safety and your continued ability to continue to spout complete and utter nonsense without being a labeled by the DHS as left-wing extremist threats prone to violence and acts of terrorism.


Correlation does not equal causation this is a logical fallacy sometimes called: cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

An example of the fallacy would be:

Sleeping with one's shoes on is strongly correlated with waking up with a headache.
Therefore, sleeping with one's shoes on causes headaches.

A second exmaple would be: After 9-11 poochy the dog's owner startd clipping poochy's claws, since then, no terrorist attacks have occured. Therefore, clipping poochy's claws prevents terrorist attacks.

A third example would be: After 9-11 we started to torture. No attacks occured. Therefore torture prevents terorist attacks.


before you start accusing people of doing nothing to advance the debate. I'd learn the rules of logic.

jmc "What is important ... (Below threshold)
marc:

jmc "What is important is the logical idiocy of thinking torture is worthwhile."

In that case what do you call intelligence chief Adm. Dennis C. Blair then?

"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.
Is he an idiot?

Lying about their effectiveness in these THREE isolated incidents?

And will you CC me a copy of the email you send to the WH asking he be fired?

If you insist on the contin... (Below threshold)
groucho:

If you insist on the continued use of the purported LA attack as justification for "enhanced interrogation techniques", just stop it already.

Feb 02: the plot is exposed and allegedly broken up
Aug 02: memos appear that approve torture.
Mar 03: KSM is captured
Now: in a NYT op/ed one of the lead agents in charge of questioning Abu Zubaydah says he gave up KSM, Padilla and other actionable intel using non-torture methods...and then was waterboarded anyway!

KSM was waterboarded 183 times after the LA plot was allegedly foiled.

The Bush crowd is running for cover as fast as they can, knowing the curtain is threatening to rise on their most un-American stewardship of this country.

High value inform... (Below threshold)
jmc:
High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.


So? I'm guessing if someone grabbed you and started chopping off your fingers every minute you didn't tell them where the jewel of the nile was buried. You'd start making up locations real fast.

That's bad intelligence no matter who approves it. If I'm really looking for the jewel I'm now on a wild goose chase.


Moreover, Blair further clarified himself the next day in the New York Times, explaining exactly why he would not have approved torture:

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

"And will you CC me a copy ... (Below threshold)
jmc:

"And will you CC me a copy of the email you send to the WH asking he be fired?"

You are mixing me up with someone else. I didn't send an email asking he be fired.


jmc - So? I'm g... (Below threshold)
marc:

jmc -

So? I'm guessing if someone grabbed you and started chopping off your fingers every minute you didn't tell them where the jewel of the nile was buried. You'd start making up locations real fast.
Well if that were true of gitmo detainees you might have a point, but its not and you're just jumping down a rabbit hole.

If you're referring to Afghanistan, sorry show me where those incidents were policy and not just isolated incidents.

I'm perfectly aware of his "clarification," that fails to alter the facts he gave. His following rebuttal was opinion and it's his right to give it.

"You are mixing me up with someone else. I didn't send an email asking he be fired."

No wonder debating you is like pissing up a rope, you get nowhere and all wet.

That was a question. Will you ask barack hussein obama to suspend all SEAL and SERE training because they use waterboarding and have since just after the Korean War?

If you do CC me a copy.

For JC HammerTo yo... (Below threshold)
Myronhalo:

For JC Hammer

To your comment = "I do believe women should have free choice when it comes to their bodies."

I believe that is commonly referred to as consensual sex.

While we look for the guilt... (Below threshold)
Myronhalo:

While we look for the guilty among us, shouldn't we at least think about the possibility that the people who initiated the attack against the twin towers are the ones guilty for any supposed torture that took place afterwards?
In Uruguay, the Tupumaros (urban guerrillas)of the sixties and early seventies, were throwing bombs, destroying government installations and killing people. As a response, the government turned the country over to the military to deal with the threat. Apparently the military caused quite a few people to disappear in not exactly legal fashions.
If the Tupumaros hadn't started the violence, there never would have been a military dictatorship nor its abuse of human rights.
It would be reasonable to say that the Tupumaros were the ones responsible for all of the abuses because their violent acts provoked the other side's response.
If the Islamic terrorists hadn't attacked the US and other countries on many occasions and in many places, there would have been no waterboarding.
If you are looking to blame someone, blame them.

Myronhalo: nope. If someone... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Myronhalo: nope. If someone murders/rapes a child, and is then executed, that person is not responsible for his/her own execution. Interesting thought, but it's not how the legal system works. And (more to the point) it's not how morality works either--our responses are our own. We own them, and they are indicative of the sort of people we are. The more humane our response, the more human we are, in the exemplary sense. Responding to barbarism with barbarism eliminates the good guy vs. bad guy dichotomy from the equation, meaning, if there was a just and holy God, He/She would have no reason to prefer the perpetrators of a horrendous crime over those who would exact an inhumane punishment upon them.

Or, more simply: you cannot justify the practice of (e.g.) execution, by virtue of the fact that some people are executed. It's a "meta"-question, and you're trying to answer it within the system that the meta-question addresses.

Where 's JAY TEA's troll ha... (Below threshold)
914:

Where 's JAY TEA's troll hammer? We got some smashin to do!

"I do believe women shou... (Below threshold)
914:

"I do believe women should have free choice when it comes to their bodies"

"I believe that is commonly referred to as consensual sex."

Unless you are referring to BILL Clinton?

jmc:It is your opi... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

jmc:

It is your opinion that waterboarding as the CIA was doing it is torture. A lot of people disagree with you and I dare say there is no right answer. And not all waterboarding is done the way the CIA does it which by all accounts is the same method that is used in SERE training. There is no way you are going to convince me you are right so stop trying. We will agree to disagree here. A have heard some people compare the waterboarding that the Japanese did to American POWs and it is not the same as what the CIA was doing - that is a fact.

Just because you and the people who agree with you claim what we did was torture does not make it so. And once again I have to ask you exactly what methods you would use to extract reliable intelligence information? What is it with you people that gives you the right to say what cannot be done when you offer no alternatives? I can only conclude that you have no ideas to present to us here in this forum and as such you can label l me whatever you want be it a sadist or lunatic and I can live with that because I don't have the slightest respect for you either. People in the prior administration I feel did their best to keep this country safe under very trying circumstances and I am guessing if we had more attacks after 9/11 the left would be saying something entirely different than they are right now because they feel they have the inalienable right to change their position on anything when the political winds change. Their is ample evidence that many in Congress knew about enhanced interrogation techniques and specifically waterboarding and they raised no objections. If we do have prosecutions, I hope we don't limit the scope of the investigation to the Bush Administration.

It is clear I will not get an answer from anybody who opposes enhanced interrogation techniques as to what they are willing to do to get detainees to give up valuable intelligence information because they simply have no idea yet they keep on claiming there are other ways to achieve the same goals. Their silence has forced me to conclude that you simply don't care about the lives of American citizens and you all are merely happy to cling to your lofty ideals and the consequences be damned. Now that you have a person who thinks the same way in charge now I suspect we will discover the legitimacy of your position. But why do I feel if we have another 9/11 style attack or worse Obama and the left won't accept any blame? Personal responsibility just does not rate very high among the things they believe in. That is why they alter their positions so much.


And can you believe Nancy P... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

And can you believe Nancy Pelosi has the gall to play dumb and say she did not know the CIA was going to use waterboarding as part of their enhanced interrogation techniques when she and other members of Congress were briefed on the subject? She admits she knew that it could be used but did not know it would be used but she certainly did not object to it in concept. I think she is absolutely lying here - I am as sure as the day is long that she knew it would be used and was told it would be used. I hope the FBI takes a statement from her so when the evidence shows that she is lying she can go to jail where she belongs. It would serve her right to be prosecuted for lying and covering up for her role in what really isn't a crime to begin with. It would be nice to see her hypocrisy and political opportunism rewarded with a stint in a federal prison.

Actally I think we all agre... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Actally I think we all agree. I am against torture but I do not believe that waterboarding is torture. It has no long lasting psychological effects. If the CIA cut people, castrate, behead, I would speak out firmly against it. ww

From Patrick, our resident ... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

From Patrick, our resident non-labeling hypocrite:

"It is clear I will not get an answer from anybody who opposes enhanced interrogation techniques as to what they are willing to do to get detainees to give up valuable intelligence information.....

Here's my answer. I'd follow what the Army does.

I doubt you've read it but it's the Army FM on Human Intelligence Collection Operations. It specifically BANS water boarding. But then you and ww would probably then "label" the Army as a cabal of liberal do-gooders.

http://www.army.mil/institution/armypublicaffairs/pdf/fm2-22-3.pdf

It has no long la... (Below threshold)
jmc:
It has no long lasting psychological effects. If the CIA cut people, castrate, behead, I would speak out firmly against it. ww

I posted the psychological effects, it is pretty much undisputed there are psyhologicl efeects. I look forward to you speaking out against waterboarding.

Unrepentant Democrat:... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

Unrepentant Democrat:

But the big question about using other tactics is do they actually work? Do you know for a fact that the CIA didn't try all the tactics approved for use in the Army Field Manual? Why do you readily assume that they skipped all of these and went right to a tactic you label as torture? And if we did not get the information we needed to prevent future attacks do you simply shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well, at least we can feel good about ourselves" as we try to identify 3000 more people using dental records?

Do the other tactics work? ... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

Do the other tactics work? Well since the Army banned water boarding I'll follow what the Army does and rely on their expertise, certainly not a conservative bloggers opinion about what may or may not be effective. After all do you go to your doctor for legal advice? Certainly not, you go to the expert, a lawyer. In this case I'll take the experts as the Army and with due respect, not you.

I note that you, as many of your fellow rightists, frequently use 9/11 as the justification for means of interrogation that may or may not be effective and that are more likely than not, torture. Well, I'll stand for what I believe in. If torture is used then the ends do not ever justify the means. As far as I am concerned we then become just another rogue nation which abandoned its very foundation and principles. In our history too many brave military men and women have died to uphold our countries principles and when we disregard them we insult all those people.

The Army and other services... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The Army and other services manuals are all geared toward regular war type enemies. This war we are in are incomparable with anything we have faced as a nation. Waterboarding is not torture and very good useful intel came from it's use. Ask Admiral Blair. ww

There we go, General Willie... (Below threshold)
Unrepentant Democrat:

There we go, General Willie,knowing he can't accuse the army of being a hotbed of liberal pantywaists now clarifies their FM for us. And what was your rank in whatever military intelligence branch of service you were in?

your opinion that... (Below threshold)
jmc:
your opinion that waterboarding as the CIA was doing it is torture. A lot of people disagree with you and I dare say there is no right answer.

I'm sorry, it is clear you are attempting to have a discussion on this, however I think there is a right anser on this. Waterboarding is torture. It is pretty much acknowledged as such around the world. And the only people I see defending it are a small minority of Republicans.


And not all waterboarding is done the way the CIA does it which by all accounts is the same method that is used in SERE training. There is no way you are going to convince me you are right so stop trying. We will agree to disagree here. A have heard some people compare the waterboarding that the Japanese did to American POWs and it is not the same as what the CIA was doing - that is a fact.

I'd like to see some information that shows the methods are different and the degree to which they are different, because i beleive you are misinformed on this.

Just because you and the people who agree with you claim what we did was torture does not make it so.

And if someone claims mock executions or waterboarding (Mock executions do even less physical harm) are not torture it doesn't change the fact that it is.


And once again I have to ask you exactly what methods you would use to extract reliable intelligence information? What is it with you people that gives you the right to say what cannot be done when you offer no alternatives? I can only conclude that you have no ideas to present to us here in this forum and as such you can label l me whatever you want be it a sadist or lunatic and I can live with that because I don't have the slightest respect for you either.

How about the tradiontal methods we used on the nazi's? How about the methods that got good information out of detainees before we started waterboarding? This is an idiotic point on your part. The united states Fought wars in World War I. and we didn't torture. We fought in WWII, and we didn't torture. We fought in Korea and Vietnam, without sancting torture. Are you really arguing we didn't get information without torture? We have alternative methods in place. they work.

btw, I certainly don't want the respect of anyone who embraces the tactics of Pinochet and Pol Pot. Such a person is not forward thinking enough to understand the danger of giving such power to the government. I always find it ironic that Republicas think somehow the incompentent Government will be making nothing but mistakes when it comes to health care, but somehow feel that giving them the power to whisk away whoever they feel is a threat, without presenting any evidence to the public, to be tortured to their hearts content, without giving any recourse for people to prove their innocene if they are, is something the goverment will do compentently. Smart.

people in the prior administration I feel did their best to keep this country safe under very trying circumstances and I am guessing if we had more attacks after 9/11 the left would be saying something entirely different than they are right now because they feel they have the inalienable right to change their position on anything when the political winds change.

I wouldn't. Torture is idiotic.

Their is ample evidence that many in Congress knew about enhanced interrogation techniques and specifically waterboarding and they raised no objections. If we do have prosecutions, I hope we don't limit the scope of the investigation to the Bush Administration.

I'm fine with that. torture is wrong. If it can be proven they should share any blame.

It is clear I will not get an answer from anybody who opposes enhanced interrogation techniques as to what they are willing to do to get detainees to give up valuable intelligence information because they simply have no idea yet they keep on claiming there are other ways to achieve the same goals.

Again this is idiotic as I have told you before, watch Taxi to the darkside.Several intergation experts are interviewd and offer plenty of ways to do this without torture. Again, We did just fine as a nation withoutout torture in every other conflict we have ever fought. And guess what we managed to not appal our allies in the process.


Their silence has forced me to conclude that you simply don't care about the lives of American citizens and you all are merely happy to cling to your lofty ideals and the consequences be damned.

There was no silence. you ignored the points.

Now that you have a person who thinks the same way in charge now I suspect we will discover the legitimacy of your position.

Well unlike Republicans, who suddenly think spending is bad after Geroge Bush's spending spree, and many other hypocrisys I oppose tortue no matter who is doing it.

But why do I feel if we have another 9/11 style attack or worse Obama and the left won't accept any blame? Personal responsibility just does not rate very high among the things they believe in. That is why they alter their positions so much.

And I feel if Al Quaeda keeps growing that Bush co. won't accept anyblame for giving the radical muslim world a recruting tool like torture. btw as I pointed out in my explanation of corralation Vs causation you have no proof that torture has done anyhting but make the world hate us. I am forced to belive that you are determined to hold on to your irrational beleifs no matter what.

The Army and othe... (Below threshold)
jmc:
The Army and other services manuals are all geared toward regular war type enemies. This war we are in are incomparable with anything we have faced as a nation. Waterboarding is not torture and very good useful intel came from it's use. Ask Admiral Blair. ww

How are they different than the Nazi's Willie? How are they differnt than the North Koreans or the north Vietnamese or the Iraqui's we fought in the first gulf war? Do these arabs have super special powers that allows them to resist more than the nazi's did?

Better yet what about the Japanese in world War II? They had suicide bombers. They'd crash themesleves into our ships with perfectly good Airplanes. We somehow managed to defeat them (and get good intelligence) without acting like we were Nazis ourselves.

How is Al Quaeda different Willie.

jmc:You are hopele... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

jmc:

You are hopelessly naive if you believe that this nation never used torture on anybody before Bush was president. The media simply did not report it because they used to believe that some lines were not supposed to be crossed when it came to issues of national security. What was your position on FDR's decision to intern Japanese-American civilians? When we fire-bombed German cities like Dresden and dropped two atomic bombs on Japan were you okay with that? If you weren't than why not be up front and call FDR and Truman war criminals as well? Is it okay for Obama to order missile strikes in Pakistan that inevitably kill our intended targets but also a few innocent bystanders? This hair-splitting on what actions are somehow humane and acceptable and what are not is completely ridiculous in my view.

You want to what what REAL torture is? Having to decide which is a better way to die: jumping from an 80 story building or being burned alive in a blazing inferno. That you have the unmitigated gall to insinuate that pouring water over a murderer's head puts the country in the same league as people like KSM only illustrates how delusional people like you are. The fact that groups like Al Qaeda would commit an act as cruel and inhuman as 9/11 BEFORE Bush ordered the CIA to uses the techniques you roundly condemn makes your arguments laughable. Do you honestly believe that this whole issue has ratcheted up the hate even more? There is no doubt in my mind that Al Qaeda would have done even more atrocious things if they had the means and waterboarding or anything else does not drive their motivation. The success of the 9/11 attacks was a far greater recruiting tool for Al Qaeda than the tactics we use on these animals when they are captured. You make me sick.

Patrick: simply not being a... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Patrick: simply not being as bad as Al Qaeda is insufficient for making you the Good Guys. Decency requires more than that.

And as for the atomic bombs and Dresden and the internment of Japanese prisoners, those are separate questions. But do you think that liberals support (in hindsight, or in principle) the internment of American citizens simply because the order was signed by a liberal President? That was the 1940s. We now know that to have been the wrong thing to do. (Well, Michelle Malkin disagrees--but that doesn't matter.)

Hyperbolist:It was... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

Hyperbolist:

It was wrong for FDR to do what he did and I see liberals conveniently ignoring that crime because I think stripping American citizens of their freedom and putting them in jail because of their race was FAR worse than anything Bush ever did. Just because it happened in the 1940s is no excuse - do you really think that our standards of morality were actually primitive seventy years ago? I didn't see Bush ordering Arab-Americans rounded up after 9/11. FDR was wrong in doing that - period.

<a href="http://article.nat... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjRlZDQ5NDdkYTViMzNlZmMyYWViOTMxMTY3OGNmMjQ=

I found this article rather enlightening about some of the things I have been saying about Democrats and their ever changing positions on things. If Clinton did what Bush did we would not be having this discussion at all. Republicans would not be taking the liberal position on this for political gain either because we actually care about national security.

You are hopelessl... (Below threshold)
jmc:
You are hopelessly naive if you believe that this nation never used torture on anybody before Bush was president. The media simply did not report it because they used to believe that some lines were not supposed to be crossed when it came to issues of national security.

We have never state sanctioned torture before.
And do you evidence of torute in the past I'd like to hear it.


What was your position on FDR's decision to intern Japanese-American civilians? When we fire-bombed German cities like Dresden and dropped two atomic bombs on Japan were you okay with that?

FDR, everyone agrees, was wrong to give in to those who called for interment camps. As a nation we have acknowledged this and paid money to the families of the victims.

As for Dresdon and The A-bomb. I think our policy should always be to minimize civillian casulities. civillian casualites.

You want to what what REAL torture is? Having to decide which is a better way to die: jumping from an 80 story building or being burned alive in a blazing inferno. That you have the unmitigated gall to insinuate that pouring water over a murderer's head puts the country in the same league as people like KSM only illustrates how delusional people like you are.

And beating Dilowar to death wasn't? great job.

The fact that groups like Al Qaeda would commit an act as cruel and inhuman as 9/11 BEFORE Bush ordered the CIA to uses the techniques you roundly condemn makes your arguments laughable. Do you honestly believe that this whole issue has ratcheted up the hate even more?

This is such an idiotic misunderstanding of the argument. No one thinks being nice to Al Quaeda is going to change Osama Bin Laden's mind. However you are radicalizing the moderates. There are some who were not ready to fight but have joined because they beleive innocent muslims are being tortured. Go tell Bin Laden he's welcome. You gave him that.

There is no doubt in my mind that Al Qaeda would have done even more atrocious things if they had the means and waterboarding or anything else does not drive their motivation.

No but it drives the minds of those on the fence. Those who might or might not joined. I posted this on another thread. Before we invaded Iraq and started using torture the U.S. had a favoribility rating of 30% in jordan. Not good but think for once. If some nut in Jordan walks into a bar and says I'm going to blow up the statue of Liberty 3 out of ten people in that bar like the U.S. they might be inclined to call the Jordanian authorites. Now our approval there is less than 1%. meaning only 1 out of a 100 will probably give a shit. Great Job making us safe guys.

The success of the 9/11 attacks was a far greater recruiting tool for Al Qaeda than the tactics we use on these animals when they are captured.

Bull, the world got behind the United States there was an outpouring of sympathy for us. In just a few short years You and your ilk turned the world against America. Good job.


You make me sick.

You were a sick sadistic fool before you ever talked to me. I didn't make you sick, either you were born that way or your parents failed you.

Jake, Stifle the cro... (Below threshold)
maggie:

Jake,
Stifle the crocodile tears, and quit fishing
without bait.
You're consistently rude to the editors, as
usually they write that which you don't like
or agree with.

jmc:You don't even... (Below threshold)
Patrick:

jmc:

You don't even remotely know me. I strongly disagreed with your position and I thought I was tough but reasonable so you have no call to call me a sadistic fool. People like you certainly make me physically ill when you demonstrate greater compassion for terrorists than the innocent lives that have been saved as a result of the things that have been done. You may choose to deny that is the case and neither of us can prove it either way because Obama will do everything he can to avoid releasing any documents proving it. But I do find you offensive in the manner that you have rudely attacked me - I serve my community every day as a member of the law enforcement community and I have a spotless record of achievement. I don't know what it is that you do but if your attitude and demeanor in this forum is indicative of the kind of person you are beneath contempt in my view.

And I don't know where you get your evidence and the inferences you draw from them are laughable. And once again we have the "Bush radicalized the moderates" as if moderates ANYWHERE would strap on an explosive vest and pull the cord. It is like the old "moderate Taliban" theory. Are they the ones that actually sharpen their knives before they cut their victim's head off? But I clearly see now why you support a guy like Obama because he truly has no clue about the problems in the Middle East. I recently read an article that illustrates how far out of his depth he is so I will try to sum it up here. FIrst Obama is already referring to "Palestine" as if it actually exists today in fact. He is way ahead of the game here but we should hardly be surprised. I thought the road map to a Palestinian state was supposed to involve a renunciation of terrorism and the ceasing of anti-Israel incitement. We have seen neither so we are no closer to a two-state solution and the Palestinians are 100% to blame here. Then Obama really showed his true colors when he said that "generations of Palestinian and Israeli children are growing up insecure, in an atmosphere of hate." Obama loves trying to equate the two sides when it is ridiculous on the face of it. Is there really as much of an "atmosphere of hate" in Israeli homes and schools as there is in Palestinian homes and schools? Be honest with yourself before you answer. Obama goes on to say that there will need to be "some hard choices of all the actors involved" as if Israel has not already made all the hard choices unilaterally so far. They have conceded territory and have gotten nothing in return but more stupid violence for their trouble. And then the best part was when Obama said "I am a strong believer in a two-state solution. I think there are a lot of Israelis who also believe in a two-state solution." Why is it only important for Israel to favor a two-state solution? The fact is many Palestinians reject just such an idea out of hand totally because they favor a single Palestinian state with Israel totally out of the equation. Why not mention that little fact? The bottom line is that he is forcing the solution on Israel and asking the Palestinians to give nothing of substance in return. He cares not a whit for Israel's safety in security because if he did he would put Israel's legitimate concerns about Iran's nuclear program ahead of this two-state solution idea - especially when you consider the fact that Iran has been one of the biggest supporters of the Palestinian violence. Iran must be dealt with first and if they are we have a much better chance at achieving some kind of settlement. But Obama is going about it completely backwards but then again he in reality is no friend of Israel as we will soon find out.

What is becoming all too clear as we approach the 100 day mark of Obama's presidency is that he was in fact present for every one of Jeremiah Wright's Sunday sermons. Everything he has done showed that he was paying close attention and he is acting accordingly. I was on to this guy right then and there when I heard the rantings of that lunatic reverend and I NEVER bought into Obama's lame explanations and outright lies. His long term presence at that church of hate would have disqualified ANY other candidate running for the presidency and to this day I am in awe at how so many people have given him a pass on it.

Dear hyperbolist"... (Below threshold)
Myronhalo:

Dear hyperbolist

"If someone murders/rapes a child, and is then executed, that person is not responsible for his/her own execution."

I shouldn't be surprised I guess at the thinking taking place in today's world, but nevertheless let me point out that God would not agree with you.
In the Old Testament (and probably in the Koran as well) it is commanded that the society/government was responsible to deal out justice an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".
Society was held responsible for administrating justice and not the individual.
But you say that if justice is administered, it is not the criminal's fault. With that kind of thinking, no wonder our world is in such a mess. For you, Man is not responsible for his actions.




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