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A Country of War Criminals

As I told you guys a week or so ago, America sees Jack Bauer as the hero, not the villain. A new CNN poll confirms.

A new national poll indicates that most Americans don't want to see an investigation of Bush administration officials who authorized harsh interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists, even though most people think such procedures were forms of torture.

Six in ten people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Wednesday believe that some of the procedures, such as water boarding, were a form of torture, with 36 percent disagreeing.

But half the public approves of the Bush administration's decision to use of those techniques during the questioning of suspected terrorists, with 50 percent in approval and 46 percent opposed.

"Roughly one in five Americans believe those techniques were torture but nonetheless approve of the decision to use those procedures against suspected terrorists," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "That goes a long way toward explaining why a majority don't want to see former Bush officials investigated."

Duh. This should come as no shocker for any average, everyday American. But I wonder what all those out-of-touch with real America pseudo-journalists at MSNBC think.

(I totally stole the post title from Michael Goldfarb.)


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Comments (23)

"But I wonder what all thos... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"But I wonder what all those out-of-touch with real America pseudo-journalists at MSNBC think."

Easy, I think Keefums and Matthews would lead the charge for frog marching Bush, Cheney, et al right into Gitmo. They could than salivate on air for months to come.

So here's a question for so... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

So here's a question for some pollster. How many Americans would approve of Obama's ban on torture if the U.S. suffered another 9/11 magnitude attack on the U.S. that could have otherwise been stopped?

Here's an even more relevant question. How many Americans would approve of Obama if the chilling effect of his rhetoric resulted in an intelligence failure that allows another 9/11 magnitude attack on the U.S.?

Obama should start with the premise that the U.S. has suffered another 9/11 magnitude attack and that an independent commission will report on the failures leading up to it. Every time Obama panders to the nut cases that occupy the left wing of his party he's dropping the ball on defending this nation. At this point, if we do suffer another 9/11 magnitude attack the left will take a political hit that will drive them from power quickly and for a long time.

Just to be clear, you do kn... (Below threshold)
Jake:

Just to be clear, you do know that "24" is NOT a documentary and "Jack Bauer" is a fictional character?

Ha, you don't know Jack! I... (Below threshold)
epador:

Ha, you don't know Jack! I got 'im on my speed dial.

Let's review our facts abou... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Let's review our facts about Mr. Bauer, in case you've forgotten:

There have been no terrorist attacks in United States since Jack Bauer has appeared on television.

Jack Bauer has the heart of a terrorist. He keeps it in a jar on his desk.

If you wake up in the morning, it's because Jack Bauer spared your life.

Jack Bauer can torture you into giving up information you do not possess.

Jack Bauer is currently involved in a complex law suit with the California Department of Justice due to their attempt to ban Jack Bauer as an "Assault Weapon". Jack maintains he is primarily used for hunting and target shooting, and is quite safe to have around families. But statistics don't lie.

Jack Bauer doesn't speak any foreign languages, but he can make any foreigner speak English in a matter of minutes.

Jack Bauer arm once wrestled Superman. The stipulations were the loser had to wear his underwear on the outside of his pants.

Sun Tzu once wrote, "If your enemy is weaker, conquer him. If he is stronger, join him. If he is Jack Bauer, you're fricking dead."

The "Smoothie" was invented when Jack Bauer needed information from a banana.

Superman is one of the few individuals who could possibly survive a confrontation with Jack Bauer. But that is only because he can fly away.

The truth may hurt, but it doesn't hurt as much as Jack Bauer.

When Jack Bauer was a child, he made his mother finish his vegetables.

When the boogie man goes to sleep, he checks his closet for Jack Bauer.

Guns don't kill people, Jack Bauer kills people.

Any questions?

"Jack Bauer was right", sta... (Below threshold)
Ryan:

"Jack Bauer was right", start printing the bumper stickers.

WTF?

In the meantime, the country that we call the United States of America has woken from our long, national nightmare, and we are feeling good and rested.

"Just to be clear, you d... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"Just to be clear, you do know that "24" is NOT a documentary and "Jack Bauer" is a fictional character?"

Just to be clear, you do know that the "war on terror" is NOT a TV show and "Kalid Sheik Mohammed" is a NOT a fictional character?

Watching the thug in charge... (Below threshold)
J:

Watching the thug in charge of this country, and the lengths he is willing to go to just to acquire his own power, there is no doubt in my mind that this man, and his minions (our congress) would authorize and probably order the most horrendous actions if it protected them and increased their power.

The extreme leftists on thi... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The extreme leftists on this site thought Martin Sheen was president for a time. Everytime the hear the word terror they put their fingers in their ears and yell "la-la-la" until you stop. Odd bunch. ww

OK, lets not deteriorate in... (Below threshold)
epador:

OK, lets not deteriorate into re-inventing the whole meme of Chuck Norris jokes.

This War Criminal thing is cultural. We certainly have a history of exploiting races, genocide and creating ghettos for "undesirables" in the early history of the USA during times of war that is still evident in small remnants in today's culture (I'm talking about Native Americans, not imported African, Asian, South and Central American or European here). In that case, we have inherited the guilt of our forefathers much as modern Germans are saddled with the history of Hitler and the Nazis.

The real crux of the current argument is based on the shift of the definition of torture - when scaring the beJesus out of someone without seriously threatening their life or well-being is torture, the same as knee-capping them, physically damaging them and leaving them psychologically scarred for life, then the rest of the argument and labeling is purely logical. If you believe this premise is invalid, then the whole argument is invalid.

Thus it is important for the side that wants to label this torture to go to the source of the differentiation, the legal opinions that made it separate from what we call torture.

If in our interactions and counter-arguments we even tacitly accept that Jack Bauer techniques (which are forms of torture) are appropriate, we're inferring that the concept of US water-boarding being torture is valid in at least some folks eyes. Ooops.

My snarky sarcasm (You don't know Jack) wasn't meant to support one side of the argument or the other, only to make fun of the diversion of the thread to a discussion of 24, a TV show.

"the country that we cal... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

"the country that we call the United States of America has woken from our long, national nightmare, and we are feeling good and rested."

The people who are, for the first time in their adult lives, proud of America are feeling good and rested. Intelligent, informed, thoughful Americans are becoming very worried, even frightened.

Mine was too, Epador. I kno... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Mine was too, Epador. I know the difference, both from a legal standpoint and from a moral standpoint.

I also know the kind of hands-beside-the-face faux horror that our liberal politicians display whenever there's a camera around and the real world when nobody's looking. The shrill "I'm shocked, shocked to find gambling going on here." comments for and by the media are nothing but an ostentatious display for the womenfolk.

In the harsh light of reality, I know what happens when lives are at stake and a smirking terrorist can head off a national catastrophe. You'll never hear about it, but even our Messiah-in-Chief will do what he has to do. And he won't ask the New York Times or even Congress whether it's permissible. He'll just do it, and so would any other government in the world.

That's the way it works, as offensive as it seems. It's a kind of harsh reality that we'd rather not think about, like what really happens when you go deer hunting, or what really happens in battle. Nobody's going to tell you it's pretty or even right, but it's going to happen and you know it. Have a moment of polite silence over the terrorist's body and get on with it.

But spare me your bumper sticker rhetoric. We're not schoolgirls, and it's not a global popularity contest.

No offense, Epador. My last... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

No offense, Epador. My last paragraph looks like it's pointed at you; it's strictly rhetorical.

Responding to Mac Lorry's c... (Below threshold)
Julie:

Responding to Mac Lorry's comment:

How many Americans would approve of Obama's ban on torture if they knew that it was responsible for the U.S. suffering another 9/11 magnitude attack on the U.S.?

Here's an even more relevant question. How many Americans would approve of Obama if the chilling effect of his rhetoric if they knew that torture is ineffectual in gaining intelligence?

Obama should start with the premise that the U.S. will suffer another 9/11 magnitude attack if we continue to invade other countries without cause and commit crimes against humanity. Every time Obama panders to his better educated party members, he's raising the bar on defending this nation. At this point, if we do suffer another 9/11 magnitude attack it will be due to the conservative nut jobs that have gotten us in this mess in the first place.

Julie - "Here's an even... (Below threshold)
marc:

Julie - "Here's an even more relevant question. How many Americans would approve of Obama if the chilling effect of his rhetoric if they knew that torture is ineffectual in gaining intelligence?"

A bit behind the news cycle aren't you? Which is it, have you just missed the fact enhanced interrogation did work in the LIMITED cases it was used, or are you willfully ignorant?

"At this point, if we do suffer another 9/11 magnitude attack it will be due to the conservative nut jobs that have gotten us in this mess in the first place."

I see you've gotten all the Party memos outlining how to frame this discussion, "blame it on Bush!!!"

Apr 10, 2009: "The U.S. military has conceded that a raid this week by troops under its command in Afghanistan killed a group of civilians who were defending their home, not militants as it had earlier reported."

And the question begged for Julie is does this make obama a "war criminal?"

How about, does it make him a "chicken-hawk-in-chief" as Bush was portrayed for the last 8 years?

BOBDOG:Bring it on... (Below threshold)
epador:

BOBDOG:

Bring it on, I got thick skin! ;-)

@marc said: "A bit behind t... (Below threshold)
Jake:

@marc said: "A bit behind the news cycle aren't you? Which is it, have you just missed the fact enhanced interrogation did work in the LIMITED cases it was used, or are you willfully ignorant?"

Which cases are these? The claims that it worked on some people continue to be shot down. Like the KSM "Tortured saved LA, but it didn't really story", for instance. I'd love to hear what examples you can point to that prove that torture has worked at all or that torture was the only option vs. alternative methods.

And as far as your use of the word "LIMITED", I'm curious how you would define limited. Knowing that there have been AT LEAST scores of people subjected to these techniques, and considering that ever week we get more information about the reality of how far this program stretched, and taking into account that we have nearly no information about the CIA black sites, I don't think any of us can say with ANY certainty how much has or has not happened.

You supporters of torture a... (Below threshold)
Just Another Liberal Troll:

You supporters of torture are the biggest threat to U.S. national security. Please, keep your noses out of foriegn policy. Actually, keep your noses out of policy decisions period. You have no understanding of our country, our Constitution, or our history. Either that, or you are knowingly criminal and traitorous.

You pick which one you supporters of torture are... either negligent criminals (idiot) or traitors (evil). Which one are you? The more you people speak out in favor of torture, the more it seems to become appearant that you are un-American traitors.

Do you realise what kind of threat this precedent of torture brings against the United States of America? What's to stop other countries from snatching American citizens, labeling them terrorists, holding them indefinitely without charge, and torturing them? What do you think the response to this precedent of torture will be to our soldiers in the field if captured? How do you think other countries will assess the US as a whole in respect to thier country's national security? You idiots!

"Jack Bauer" in 24 is nothing more than Goebel like propaganda, and you supporters of torture are the Nazi followers. You people make me sick! Lorie Byrd is a supporter of torture, and should be ashamed of herself.
depp=true
notiz=One fly by troll gets whacked.

Julie, Let me fix t... (Below threshold)
maggie:

Julie,
Let me fix that for you. It was the liberal
nut jobs in the early 1990s that got us into
this mess, by not responding appropriately to
the numerous attacks on americans and american
interests.
How did that broad brushing feel?

correct spelling: -->Goebbe... (Below threshold)
Just Another Liberal Troll:

correct spelling: -->Goebbels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

You supporters of torture a... (Below threshold)
Just Another Liberal Troll:

You supporters of torture are THE biggest threat to U.S. national security. Please, keep your noses out of foriegn policy. Actually, keep your noses out of policy decisions period. You have no understanding of our country, our Constitution, or our history. Either that, or you are knowingly criminal and traitorous.

You pick which one you supporters of torture are... either negligent criminals (idiot) or traitors (evil). Which one are you? The more you people speak out in favor of torture, the more it seems to become appearant that you are un-American traitors.

Do you realise what kind of threat this precedent of torture brings against the United States of America? What's to stop other countries from snatching American citizens, labeling them terrorists, holding them indefinitely without charge, and torturing them? What do you think the response to this precedent of torture will be to our soldiers in the field if captured? How do you think other countries will assess the US as a whole in respect to their country's national security? You idiots!

"Jack Bauer" in 24 is Goebbels like propaganda, and you torture supporters are the Nazi followers. You people make me sick! Lorie Byrd is a supporter of torture and should be ashamed of herself.

P.S. - Thanks for editting my previous post to say gibberish, as it gave me the opportunity to correct my spelling. I know you are also against the 1st ammendment of the U.S. constitution, further illustrating my point of what traitors you people are.

Liberal Troll - you raise s... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Liberal Troll - you raise several erudite and incisive arguments, but I have to disagree with you in several minor respects:

1. That I'm a supporter of torture. I'm not even an admirer of torture. I just acknowledge what you seem to be too squeamish to admit.

2. That I'm THE biggest threat to U.S. national security. No, there are a bunch of really smelly jihadists out there. I think they represent more of a threat than little ol' me.

3. That I have any less of a right to comment about foriegn (sic) policy than you do.

4. That I need to keep my nose out of policy decisions period, or have any particular obligation to agree with your view of things. I get an opinion - you know, the 1st Ammendment (sic) to the U.S. constitution (sic) and stuff.

5. That I have no understanding of our country. I venture to say I do.

6. That I have no understanding of our Constitution. I venture to say I do.

7. That I have no understanding of our history. I venture to say I do.

8. That I am knowingly criminal and traitorous. I'm neither criminal nor traitorous. Nice turn of phrase, though.

9. That I must be one or the other of the four choices you offer: either a negligent criminal, an idiot, a traitor, or evil. Logically, can't I be all four? More to the point, can't I be none of the choices you offer, or is this multiple choice or something?

10. I'm probably not an un-American traitor, but I think we covered that.

11. I may not agree that I'm advocating torture at all.

12. I might disagree with your rather childish notion that other countries will never dare mistreat American prisoners if we act like little girls at an Easter Party.

13. I might disagree that other countries will respect us if only we wag our tail and roll over for a belly rub every time somebody attacks us.

14. I might not be an idiot at all, although I might question your right to declare me one, based on the weakness of your arguments.

15. Jack Bauer can speak for himself, but for your sake, pray he doesn't.

16. I'm probably not a Nazi sympathizer. You probably know that, in your sensitive little heart.

17. I'm less a torture supporter than a realist. While I don't think Lorie is a torture supporter either, I'll let her speak for herself. If she does, you might have another vowel movement.

18. I may not be against the First Ammendment (sic) of the U.S. constitution (sic), but I do admire your desire to eddit (sic) your spelling. Speling is soooo importent, ya know?

So, let's sum up, shall we? I make you sick. That's OK by me. I'm enthusiastic about the idea. Your spelling could be improved, but keep working on it. And do spend a few moments looking up "ad hominem attacks" in the dictionary.

It's been wonderful chatting with you, son. Drop by again.

Just Another Liberal Troll ... (Below threshold)
marc:

Just Another Liberal Troll - "You have no understanding of our country, our Constitution, or our history. Either that, or you are knowingly criminal and traitorous."

So you think you're an knowledgeable source on U.S. history as it pertains to "torture?"

I beg to differ, you're friggin' clueless.

Example: Click on "download." If that doesn't work, click on "SSRN" on the next screen you see.

Be careful, it might get ugly for your virgin eyes.

From 1949 to 1973, the CIA authorized the use of, and used, such special interrogation techniques as truth drugs, LSD, heat and cold, "electric methods," and narco-hypnosis.

('58-'62) Prisoners of war could be made to stand at attention when being interrogated and no time limit was placed on this technique. Sleep deprivation without limitation was also permitted. So was isolation.

After '73 the CIA continued to interpret the law as allowing the use of stress positions, disrupted sleep, solitary confinement, sensory deprivation, threats of violence, temperature manipulation, and examination of body cavities.

Just Another Liberal Troll, and those are just the highlights.

History... as I said you ain't gotta clue.




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