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Protest-loving liberals now advocate snitch campaigns and investigations of protesters - and I'm loving it!

For me, this week has been one of those times when it's really great to be a conservative. Please indulge me while I pour a tall glass of vintage Schadenfreude and spend the next few moments joyously ridiculing Team Obama and their army of professional "organizers."

I seem to recall that we've just endured eight years of "WE ARE AMERICANS AND WE HAVE A RIGHT TO DEBATE AND DISAGREE WITH ANY ADMINISTRATION!" Am I just waking up from a bad dream? Because I distinctly remember dissent being the highest form of patriotism. I remember liberals flipping out over the Patriot Act, to the extent that they tried to kill it. I remember liberals going nuts when President Bush suggested that Americans report suspicious activity in the wake of 9/11.

But today, with liberals solely holding the reigns of power in Washington, DC, what are they asking their supporters to do?

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can't keep track of all of them here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

Be a patriot -- be a snitch. Got it. Naturally in the minds of Team Obama it is absolutely critical that loyal, patriotic Americans snitch on their neighbors who oppose socialized medicine, because no sane person could really oppose the government taking over the entire health care delivery system, could they? It must be part of a giant eeeeeeevil conspiracy orchestrated by rich white insurance lobbyists, pouring millions of dollars into shadowy RNC-affiliated organizations, who are then paying people to show up and belittle our honorable public servants at town hall meetings.

And about those protesters -- apparently the Chicago Democrat political machine has decided that they're the new "Mob". Where's Eliot Ness when you need him?

You'll note that the voice-over narration claims that the Town Hall / Tea Party protests are "straight from the playbook of high level Republican political operatives." Sorry guys, but disruption and intimidation are straight from the ANSWER, Code Pink, ACT/UP, ACORN, and Organizing For America playbooks:

But why let facts stand in the way of a good smear, or a juicy conspiracy theory? Mary Katherine Ham did a little digging and uncovered the source of the phrases in the DNC "Mob" video that are allegedly from "high level Republican operatives." Truth is, the quotes are from Right Principles PAC, an obscure Connecticut libertarian political action committee (23 Facebook members and 5 Twitter followers) that published a memo originally emailed to less than a dozen people, urging them to be persistent and outspoken when protesting at town hall meetings. Look out -- a dozen Libertarians are on the loose! Goose-stepping brownshirts and the gas chamber are right around the corner. Any day now. Really.

What seems to be frustrating Team Obama the most is that true grassroots opposition to high taxes, out-of-control spending, and government take-overs of one third of the US economy was never supposed to happen! The Obama White House and its minions, a group of professional political organizers ("Organizing For America") tied politically and financially to ACORN Community Organizations International, SEIU, Teamsters, UAW, AFGE, etc. planned to drum up support for all of President Obama's policies via carefully astroturfed "grassroots" events packed with professionally-trained activists and rent-a-protesters posing as ordinary citizens. Their events were designed to generate press coverage that would convey a spirit of optimism and unity toward a complete Federal government takeover of the health care, energy, banking, and transportation sectors. The masses were to be subdued by convincing them that "everyone" supported the President, and therefore opposition was unnatural and, well, unpatriotic.

But now that real grassroots protesters who oppose Big Government have started showing up by the thousands at Tea Party rallies, and have essentially taken over the government-sponsored town hall meetings centered around health care reform, Team Obama is in a full-blown state of panic. I think they absolutely understand that Tea Parties and other protests aimed at limiting government are truly a grassroots effort. This scares the living hell out of them because they also know that their own astroturf campaign in support of socialism had to be completely orchestrated from the top-down. In other words, faux "grassroots" support for increased government spending, taxation, and intervention in our private lives doesn't happen without a tremendous amount of organizational work and money. On the other hand, thousands of citizen protesters will take time off from work and show up at a Tea Party rally without any professional organizing.

It may seem a little frightening when Obama Administration officials publicly call for Tea Party and town hall protesters to be photographed and investigated (I know, I know ... can you even imagine the response of liberals if a Bush Administration spokesperson had formally called for investigations of anti-war protesters) but the truth is that we now have Team Obama on the run. They are circling the wagons and firing their guns into the air, hoping to scare us away.

Or to use Saul Alinsky's phraseology, " If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside." The self-championed defenders of free speech, dissent, and organized protests are now advocating censorship, intimidation, and other scare tactics in order to save their agenda.

Like I said, this is one of those weeks where I'm really glad to be a conservative.


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Comments (119)

If you really believe the c... (Below threshold)
Still An Unrepentant Democrat:

If you really believe the crap you just wrote about "snitching" you're even dumber than I thought. On second thought.......

Grassroots activism. Isn't... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Grassroots activism. Isn't that sort of like community organizing? Looks like the President is getting a little too big for his britches suddenly getting amnesia about the good old days when he could appreciate good anti-establishment resistance.

"If you really believe the ... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

"If you really believe the crap you just wrote about "snitching" you're even dumber than I thought. On second thought......."

Honestly, Unrepentant, you are an oligarch's wet dream.

I used to be a liberal Demo... (Below threshold)
MPR:

I used to be a liberal Democrat and I know how they think. They are panicked and I hope they keep it up. They are so deluded they think nobody is smart enough to see through their desperation. I am waiting for what I would get from liberals before the election. The race card. "You don't want to see a black man in the W.H." It's coming and I love it.

Saud -From the Whi... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Saud -

From the White House web site.

The White House - Blog Post - Facts Are Stubborn Things

Since we can't keep track of all of them here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.
Do your duty - report the unbelievers.

Something like that would have caused the folks over at Kos to go ballistic if Bush had suggested it. But because Obama does, it's suddenly fine? Or are we misinterpreting it all?

Come on, man - you're getting so dizzy trying to keep the spin going you're spewing stuff that's not making any sense at all.

I'm still waiting for Big I... (Below threshold)

I'm still waiting for Big Insurance to send me my check for the protests. Anyone know where it is?

Heck, you know how hard it would be to get Conservatives to organize like the Dems do? It's like herding cats. Conservatives are just way to independent.

BTW, I reported this post, Michael. You are a bad boy and need to be watched ;)

"one of those times when... (Below threshold)

"one of those times when it's really great to be a conservative"

What are you drinking?

Obama will be around for at least three more years, seven if the GOP does their typically ridiculous job of picking a challenger... and notwithstanding his current troubles in getting his agenda through, I don't see him moving to the center... and even if he did, the best a conservative could hope for was liberalism-lite.. which ain't the same thing as conservative.

Likewise, Pelosi and Reid hold solid majorities that enable them to push through whatever they want... and to the extent that they foresee problems in 2010, they'll be even more aggressive in pushing their agenda. The blue dogs aren't going to sustain their challenge, they'll be bought off. The GOP won't hold in the Senate.

The town hall meetings make for great TV but they're not going to deter the Dems who don't believe they're going to suffer at the polls if they push this through. Likewise, taxes will go up, deficit spending will continue, government will continue to meddle in business.

I could see being a bit less depressed than a few months back but if you're feeling great, you have some mighty low expectations.

Lets over run that mailbox ... (Below threshold)
GianiD:

Lets over run that mailbox with stories and reports of lib corruption, misdeeds, lies, etc. One would need a hard drive bigger than John Murtha just to catalog all the dirt on him.

"Beneath the Watchful Eye" ... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

"Beneath the Watchful Eye" of President Obama... coming soon ?

http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2002/11/56152

SAUD:Keep drinking t... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

SAUD:
Keep drinking the kool aid.

Steve -I don't thi... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Steve -

I don't think Obama's going to effectively last out his three years. He's in the unfortunate position of the dog who chased the car - and then caught it.

Soon the question will be - how can he let go of it with the least damage? Will he get an offer for a position even greater than he's got, or will he resign for 'health reasons'?

Even if he does stay in, the way he's been pushing things is going to effectively render him powerless. I'm thinking there's already enough people pissed about the way things are going to make things VERY iffy for the Dems in 2010. Give them another couple of months like this - and Obama's not going to have a power base of a compliant Senate and House.

LawsonGee, I guess... (Below threshold)
Still An Unrepentant Democrat:

Lawson

Gee, I guess in the land of wingnutia and you of the tinfoil hats, politics is only allowed if you're from the loony right. The WH is not allowed to fight back. How soon you goofballs forget about Bush and his wiretaps!

I used to think you were an intelligent thinker. Now I know you only hide your nuttiness behind some big words. So, when Mallow says "snitch to the WH" that clearly implies that there will be personal retribution to the named person? You apparently buy that which of course fits into the utterly stupid accusations from the denizens of wingnutia such as yourself that Obama is a socialist, a a Nazi, a fascist, a communist and on and on and on. Please make up your minds for god's sake. He can't be all of them at once.

The more you folks talk the goofier you become. Conspiracies everywhere, paranoia spreading - soon a liberal under every bed!!! And to think you're divinity and savior is an ignorant, illiterate hockey mom. Good luck.

JLawson: I'll be polite and... (Below threshold)

JLawson: I'll be polite and won't say that you're delusional... oh heck, you're delusional.

Obama wasn't chasing the car just to catch the car, he truly wants to remake American society. And bad polls won't lead him to drop his plans, he will just double down. He'll increase the pressure on those in his way. And let's not forget Clinton, who at one time was arguing that he 'was still relevant' and came out strong enough that he could screw an intern and still have 60% ratings.

As for him retiring? Politicians and dictators, especially ones like Obama, don't give up power. no matter how bad things get, they still think being in office is better than not being in office.

Gee, I guess I just got on... (Below threshold)
devildog666:

Gee, I guess I just got on another enemies list. I'm still waiting for my checks to come in from the last towm hall meeting, social security doesn't go that far. I put on my Sperry Topsiders and had my Medicare card in my back pocket, just in case and headed down to Columbus, OH where the local media said 300 people showed up. We had over 10,000 people there, all concerned citizens.

I've maintained for a long ... (Below threshold)
jim:

I've maintained for a long time that all these charges of fascism etc from the left were nothing more than projection.

For 8 years we endured rabid warnings about stifling of dissent and police state tactics to suppress political opponents.

Now that the left is in power we get the White House asking for dissenters to be reported to he Federal Government, Alcee Hastings proposing legislation to inter political dissidents, Homeland Security defining political opposition as terrorist threats, The White House supporting the communist overthrow of Honduras by false elections and electoral manipulation and on and on.

Unrepentant Democrat wrote,... (Below threshold)

Unrepentant Democrat wrote, "...utterly stupid accusations from the denizens of wingnutia ...that Obama is a socialist, a a Nazi, a fascist, a communist and on and on and on. Please make up your minds for god's sake. He can't be all of them at once."

According to the denizens of Moonbattia, George W. Bush was all of those things at once -- or weren't you paying attention during the last 8 years?

After reading the "secret" ... (Below threshold)
Neo:

After reading the "secret" memo, I must say that it really isn't that "secret" or shocking. Most Leftists who did any protesting in college should find the techniques mentioned in the memo familiar ... it even mentions "Use the Alinsky playbook of which the Left is so fond: freeze it, attack it, personalize it, and polarize it." Better yet, it outlines how to box in a cagey politicians who are used to answering questions without actually answering them.

Mahatma Gandhi would be proud to espouse and use the techniques described. Frankly, what is missing is any mention of violence or rushing the stage, a staple of Leftist attempts to suppress free speech on college campuses.

Is being effective at a gathering for public discourse a crime or unethical ? ... what's the big deal ?

Where's the smoking gun that shows the $40 million dollars being pumped in like ObamaCare's proponents are doing ?

Once again Think Progress shows that they are neither.

Saud, I'm curious as to you... (Below threshold)
AJ:

Saud, I'm curious as to your opinion on why the White House wants to know about "fishy" health care emails, posts, and conversations? What do you reckon the White House will do with the tips they are being sent? I mean, they are getting their info out at townhall meetings, press conferences, prime time TV slots, etc. So why are they requesting that people report conversations about health care that don't jive with the White House's message?

To:flag@whitehouse.gov<br /... (Below threshold)
Yogurt:

To:flag@whitehouse.gov
Re;Fishy
OMGDZ! Those tards at the Whitehouse are saying they're going to SAVE money on healthcare by spending MORE money. Also now going to raise taxes on Sounds FISHY to me!

The more you folks talk ... (Below threshold)
iwogisdead:

The more you folks talk the goofier you become. Conspiracies everywhere, paranoia spreading - soon a liberal under every bed!!!

I don't believe there are conspiracies everywhere. However, I do believe that Republicans are inciting angry mobs of a small number of rabid right wing extremists funded by K Street Lobbyists to disrupt thoughtful discussions about the future of health care in America.

Citizens are being deprived... (Below threshold)
rblrdr:

Citizens are being deprived of the opportunity to participate in town hall meetings, a democratic process, to learn about Health Care reform. Instead of peacefully demonstrating they're concerns in appropriate gathering, these gangs are disrespecting fellow Americans and spreading chaos. I pity some of these elderly Americans who attend these town hall meetings and end with looks of fear on their faces.

The same happens on the internet too. This article is a perfect example. This is misinformation, paranoia and DRAMA! It is down right unpatriotic to spread fear.

The White House is trying identify these lies so they can be addressed. They should as a matter of responsibility to the "civilized" part of the constituency.

I do believe that Republ... (Below threshold)

I do believe that Republicans are inciting angry mobs of a small number of rabid right wing extremists funded by K Street Lobbyists to disrupt thoughtful discussions about the future of health care in America.

angry? sure. people upset with proposals are usually not happy.
mobs of a small number..? Somewhat oxymoronic?
'extremists funded by K Street...' any proof that lobbyists are writing checks to the small number of extremists who comprise these angry mobs? I'd be happy to go to a town hall meeting if someone is passing out checks.
'thoughtful discussion'? Neither Dem nor Republican officeholders use town hall meetings to hold thoughtful discussions on anything. Name one Congressman who has ever held with constituents what is commonly viewed as a 'thoughtful discussion' on any topic. At best, they're used to gauge constituent reaction to proposals before Congress... and isn't this what is being done?

I have confessed!H... (Below threshold)
Snedworld:

I have confessed!

Hello, B'rak (Yo!)

Before someone tattles on me, I am writing to "confess" regarding Obamacare.

I confess that I think that Obamacare is "fishy".

I confess that I think Obama is lying about nothing changing regarding my plan.

I confess that I think Obamacare will break the bank, and cause taxes to go up on EVERYONE.

I confess that I have seen the video where Barak tells us he is for a single payer healthcare system (Obamacare) and that it will do away with private and employer insurance plans.

I confess that I will work my darndess and give my limit to defeat candidates (including my congressman, Lloyd Doggett) who vote for this boondoggle.

I confess that I voted for you, but will never vote for you again.

I confess that I will attend every town hall meeting that I can and will politely let my representatives know how I feel.

There, that feels so much better, getting all that "confessing" off my chest!

Signed: Yours truly

P.S. I'm ready for the IRS audit that I'm sure will be coming my way next year.

rblrdrWhich lies?<... (Below threshold)
jim:

rblrdr

Which lies?

The lies that rep Jan Schatkowski told that this was absolutely going to lead to the death of the private insurance industry?

The lies that Obama told that he wanted a single payor system?

The lies that Barney Frank told that a public option will inevitably lead to a single poyar system?

The lies that you can keep your own insurance when page 16 of the House bill states that new enrollments in private employer plans will be prohibited

Or do you mean he lies that all of the above are untrue?

People are pissed off. They see Congress exempting themselves from this legislation (just like they have OSHA and EEOC laws). They see Obama saying on national television that he wouldn't put his family in a public plan. They see how crappy socialized medicine is overseas and in Canada.

You can comfort yourself by thinking that htis s all manufactured, but the rest of us know better.

My elderly, ultraliberal parents who voted for Obama (yes I pray for them) are totally pissed off and feel betrayed. My mother questions whether they would pay for her breast cancer therapy and for the corneal transplants that enable her to see. She knows that the answer is no.

If you are concerned about ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

If you are concerned about lies, read the bill as it is writen then compare what you have read with what the liars in the adminstration say they want. Obama has said he wants a single payer system. This whole thing is not about reforming healthcare it is about a government takeover. That is the purpose. What better way to transform the nation than to put governemtn in charge of your healthcare? If you like the DMV and the Post Office you are going to love Obamacare. I think it is nearly time to throw the want to be tyrant out of office.

rblrdrI forgot to ... (Below threshold)
jim:

rblrdr

I forgot to ask: Who is lying?

The CBO when it says that the Healthcare plan will cause costs to go up?

Or Obama when he says that it will cause costs to go down?

They cannot both be true. For me I suspect that the CBO is right based on the fact that the Johnson administration projected 25 year costs for Medicare to be $10B and the fact is that they are more than ten times that.

I also base that on the more recent and obvious failing hat the CARS program was supposed to last 4 months and barely made it 5 days before running out of money.

Last question: How does Obama's plan actually reduce healthcare costs? Nowhere has he proposed anything but reducing payments and refusing payment for tests and procedures the government decides are unnecessary. This doesn't reduce cost. It doesn't decrease the costs of those people who actually deliver healthcare services all it does is reduce the amount of healthcare services that will be available.

Gangs? OMG! Hells Angels ar... (Below threshold)
Rich:

Gangs? OMG! Hells Angels are storming town hall meetings? Crips and Bloods everywhere!

Let me just add a little to your internet drama,rblrdr. I have the feeling your idea of civilized is everyone sitting quietly sipping their koolaide and nodding their heads at the government drone.

Seriously, if protesters wa... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Seriously, if protesters want to disrupt the dialogue in a town hall by screaming and yelling, throw them out. Freedom of speech be damned if they're preventing other people from speaking and listening.

Anyone who wants to engage in a serious discussion on the merits and shortcomings of healthcare reform should be encouraged to do so, whether liberal or conservative. On the other hand, anyone who wants to derail the conversation by screaming "SOCIALISM!!!" and frightening the elderly in the room is a moron and should be dragged away by police.

Steve:"Obama wa... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Steve:

"Obama wasn't chasing the car just to catch the car, he truly wants to remake American society."

Yes, he does! And No, he won't!

He could get away with it while he was campaigning - after all, nobody really expects a candidate to KEEP their promises to the letter.

But Obama's been keeping his promises, (and I'll grant him that much) ignoring the fact that keeping those promises requires one hell of a lot of money THAT JUST PLAIN ISN'T THERE.

And that money will come from you and I, Steve. Yep, businesses and corporations pay taxes - but where do corporations get their money from?

People are seeing the bills for what he's handing out so freely, and they don't like it. They're seeing their kids and grandkids saddled with trillions that'll have to be paid back. And they're pushing back - and Obama doesn't like THAT one bit. He's the 'Savior' - we're supposed to just follow him, not actually run the numbers on what he's proposing!

They're seeing what not enough people saw before the election - that Obama's a smooth talking con man, and it's THEIR wallets (as well as YOUR wallet, and MY wallet) which are going to be a lot lighter before it's all over.

I did my part and reported ... (Below threshold)
ken:

I did my part and reported MYSELF!
I suggest everyone do it and maybe this administration will GET A CLUE.

The American people DO NOT WANT what they are selling.
We want to KNOW what is in the bill BEFORE they vote on it.
We want our REPRESENTATIVES to READ the bill before voting on it.
We want DEBATE and SPECIFICS, not general goals and promises that President Obama and Congress KNOW are NOT TRUE.

Turn yourself in. DISSENT is PATRIOTIC!

While I do expect that ever... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

While I do expect that every conservative here detests Rachel Maddow--and I'll even charitably assume that it's because of her progressive political views and not her sexuality!--she lays out in this video a factual case for not believing that these Tea Party protesters are simply hard-working middle class Americans. Sure, some of them are, but the bulk of the organizing is being paid for by lobbying groups and being conducted by PR groups that make a lot of money doing stuff like this.

If conservatives would be honest about this, then discussion moving forward would be worthwhile; in the meantime, though, these protests must be taken as totally disingenuous and unspontaneous. It's the Brooks Brothers riot all over again and, unsurprisingly, stupid people are buying it hook, line, and sinker. Now, conservatives have every right to be happy about this, as their side is 'winning' the debate without even participating in it; but they are dishonest or ignorant if they purport to believe that this is a grassroots movement and not astroturf.

So Hyper,As a hearin... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

So Hyper,
As a hearing impaired individual myself, screaming SOCIALISM is nothing more than stating a factual warning loud enough for all to hear. Kind of like yelling FIRE when there is an actual fire. Let me ask your opinion. Do you think that elected representatives have been duly open about clarifying doubts that citizens have had about the health care "reform"? Do you feel their mantra about it being such a complex issue puts them above having to explain it to the people who elected them? Were you equally incredulous when the Dems scared the elderly away from Bush's call for reforming Social Security (or is it OK for liberals to scare seniors)?

Oh Lord. When unrepentant ... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

Oh Lord. When unrepentant democrat was made they broke the mold.

Then they beat the shit out of the mold maker.

C'mon you whiny weasels, ge... (Below threshold)
btenney:

C'mon you whiny weasels, get in my face.

Hyperbolist-I have g... (Below threshold)
jim:

Hyperbolist-
I have gone to tea party protests. They are not loaded with lobbyists, nor are they organized by PR organizations and filled with paid protesters.

The lie is that they do not reflect the concerns of the people.

I'll grant you they are not spontaneous in the sense that they are planned by private citizens and promoted on facebook and twitter. People take time off from work to attend these events. They are real. they are serious.

To denigrate and dismiss these people is shameful. What I see happening is that as the media and the White House dismiss these people and their concerns the protests are getting louder and angrier.

The other thing I see is that first protesters are called liars. Then when video proof that they are questioning the White House based on statements from Democrat Pols the talking points change to "these are fabricated protests".

The truth is that libs are too chicken to state the truth that this is about a government take over of healthcare and it is about an administration trying to conceal its efforts in that regard. Lastly, it's about anger over a congress that doesn't bother to understand the legislation that they are paid to represent our concerns about.

On the other hand,... (Below threshold)
The Big O!:
On the other hand, anyone who wants to derail the conversation by screaming "SOCIALISM!!!" and frightening the elderly in the room is a moron and should be dragged away by police.

Hyperbolist has the right attitude -- anyone who dissents from the ruling party ought to be dragged away by the police.

It is simply impossible to have a free and open debate between citizens and their elected representatives until all opposing views have been quashed by force.

"Lastly, it's about anger o... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"Lastly, it's about anger over a congress that doesn't bother to understand the legislation that they are paid to represent our concerns about."

Jim, it's also anger about a Congress that says they don't have time to READ the legislation they pass.

If they're not even reading it, they're not doing their jobs. If it's too COMPLEX for them to read and understand, maybe they need to dial back the bafflegab until a person who doesn't have a degree in public policy and who doesn't sideline as a lawyer can understand it.

We first heard from the bir... (Below threshold)
Paul:

We first heard from the birthers, with their fake "birth certificate" in hand and with their fake outrage. These are the same under tones that you saw from Republicans during the confirmation hearings for Sonia Sotomayor, "you are not like us" or "you are too different", "you are not main stream". And then they act surprised when people do not vote with them, they are lost, no core beliefs, too bad.

In my opinion the Republican Party has been taken over the most extreme religious right (people who love to push their beliefs on others while at the same time trying to take away their rights) and that's who they need to focus on if they real want to win. Good Luck, because as they said in WACO, "We Ain't Coming Out".

It's funny we hear Republicans say that they do not want "faceless bureaucrats" making medical decisions but they have no problem with "private sector" "faceless bureaucrats" daily declining medical coverage and financially ruining good hard working people. And who says that the "private sector" is always right, do we forget failures like Long-Term Capital, WorldCom, Global Crossing, Enron, Tyco, AIG and Lehman Brothers. Of course the federal government will destroy heathcare by getting involved, Oh but wait our military men and women and the Senate and Congress get the best heathcare in the world, and oh, that's right, its run by our federal government. I can understand why some may think that the federal government will fail, if you look at the past eight years as a current history, with failures like the financial meltdown, Katrina, and the Walter Reed Scandal but the facts is they can and if we support them they will succeed.

Let's grade you there, Paul... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Let's grade you there, Paul.

Birther garbage? Check.

Religous Right crap? (Stale, dating back to the '80s, but points for trying.) Check.

"Oh but wait our military men and women and the Senate and Congress get the best heathcare in the world, and oh, that's right, its run by our federal government."

Whoops. You blew it. Walter Reed Army scandal comes to mind. Also, military health care is designed with the need for trauma care and support for a cohort of healthy 18-45 year olds as the primary purpose - not the normal needs of the entire population, including oncological and geriatric care. The military specialsts for those fields are primarily stationed at Walter Reed, where they take care of the aged and infirm in the House and Senate.

The rest of the country? Not so much.

Sorry - you fail. Go get some fresh talking points.

Paul, as a personal favor, ... (Below threshold)

Paul, as a personal favor, could you be full of shit in smaller chunks? thx!

I'll just pick one "chunk":
"Oh but wait our military men and women and the Senate and Congress get the best heathcare in the world, and oh, that's right, its run by our federal government"

You put the military medical care in with what CONGRESS has? Congress has a CADILLAC plan...that WE pay for and they will not walk away from. They're not inviting US peasants into THEIR plan. And you have obviously NEVER been in a military hospital. They "heal" you...but not with what most people would consider TLC.

ABC reports no astroturf.</... (Below threshold)
jim:

ABC reports no astroturf.

Never mind the truth. Even when the media stumbles into the truth and reports it the libs still cling to their talking points.

Paul - I have seen video from protests with both conservatives and Green Party members on the same side of the issue. This is not a GOP sponsored thing. I have seen plenty of people out there ripping into Republicans for going along with this crap legislation and voting without bothering to inform themselves of what it contains.

As to the military getting the best care I seem to remember that there was a great deal of uproar about conditions in the VA system just last year. My dad's a vet, the VA is the LAST place he ever thinks of to get health care because it is crap.

Suggesting that the VA provides even marginally decent care is the funniest thing said on this thread yet.

I meant to post this link t... (Below threshold)
jim:

I meant to post this link to the ABC story:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/a-first-hand-view-of-a-raucous-town-hall-meeting.html


Also: Now the AFL-CIO says they will be sending heir thugs out to townhalls to counter the anti-socialized medicine protesters. Why is it that the anti-socialized medicine protesters show up in large numbers from the local community,but the administration is now having to BUS IN union thugs to support their message?

JL: maybe they need to ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

JL: maybe they need to dial back the bafflegab until a person who doesn't have a degree in public policy and who doesn't sideline as a lawyer can understand it

Why? Public policy is not written to be understood by people; it's written to help people and make their lives better (ostensibly). I agree that nobody--Democrats or Republicans--has made an effort to distil their positions into something digestible, which is the job of politicians and not policy writers. The bill being 1,000 pages long is not in and of itself a problem. I'm actually surprised that they were able to spell out the entire thing in only 1,000 pages. Health care reform is a pretty massive, complicated undertaking.

jim: quit whining. Watch the video I linked to above of Rachel Maddow explaining how lobbying groups are paying PR companies to bus people from town hall to town hall to disrupt the dialogue. She lists the organizations that are sponsoring this. The facts are there; you've been made aware of them; and so further whining on your part about the media or Democrats accusing the Tea Party "activists" of being astroturf puppets suggests willful ignorance, duplicity, or stupidity on your part.

from Paul's platitudes:<br ... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

from Paul's platitudes:

It's funny we hear Republicans say that they do not want "faceless bureaucrats" making medical decisions but they have no problem with "private sector" "faceless bureaucrats" ..

There's one CRITICAL difference between the government and the private sector. I can chose not to engage with a private business. However, should I chose not to comply with government, I would find myself in jail.

Oh, DaveD: standing up and ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Oh, DaveD: standing up and asking the representative whether the program is socialistic; and if so, whether they will support it, is participating in a dialogue.

Whereas shouting and drowning out other people is being an asshole.

Having an argument is one thing; trying to prevent anyone from explaining their point of view or asking a question is actually silencing the free speech of others, and should not be tolerated.

"Why? Public policy is n... (Below threshold)
jim:

"Why? Public policy is not written to be understood by people; it's written to help people and make their lives better (ostensibly)"


I love this.

More "shut up and don't question us because we know better than you do what is good or you." Except of course they don't.

Arrogance to that extreme will not get you listened to and is much of what is fueling the protests.

_Mike_: provide one example... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

_Mike_: provide one example of a Canadian, Brit, Japanese (etc.) citizen being jailed because of the fact that their government has a single-payer system.

Your comment doesn't make any sense. Doctors and nurses who get paid by the government don't get to handcuff people and imprison them.

"In my opinion the Republic... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

"In my opinion the Republican Party has been taken over the most extreme religious right (people who love to push their beliefs on others while at the same time trying to take away their rights)....."

Oh my Paul, you could re-write this sentence substituting the term Democrat for Republican, the term left for religious right and you would perfectly describe the zealots hungry for the statist policies of their secular messiah called Obama.

What folks like you don't seem to understand is that there are very few people who do not believe health care reform is needed. You can neatly pick and choose large corporations where the ugly side of capitalism has revealed itself. What is convenient for you to ignore is the majority of business and financial interests which have driven the higher standard of living and technological innovation in that part of the world that has considered it the best option for society. All I would ask is that you name one major government program in that same part of the world which has realized its original long term goal of breadth of service with fiscal soundness.

Hyperbolist - I wi... (Below threshold)
jim:

Hyperbolist -

I will continue to take my own personal experience of actual attendance at protests as more informative than that of liberal media mouthpieces.

I have yet to be to a protest where there were buses bringing people in. I have seen events where the start was delayed because the parking lots were full and people were parking blocks away so they could attend.

Hyperbolist - I wo... (Below threshold)
jim:

Hyperbolist -

I won't give you anyone who has been jailed, but I will give you Chaoulli v Québec. That's the case where a Canadian citizen sued the government and won, the courts holding that the single payer system violated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which guarantees access to health care.

The decision famously stated that access to a waiting list is not access to health care.

There you have it: The Supreme Court of Quebec stating that their health plan doesn't benefit the public but actually violates their constitutional rights.

Socialized medicine sucks and everyone outside the US understands this. Every government exempts themselves from having o wait in line like the rest of the public has to.

Apparently, the only people who believe that it is better are the useful idiots here in the US.

Hyper,Civil discours... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Hyper,
Civil discourse would be my preference. If I have a sincere question and I am treated with condescension I get angry. Shouting might be my response if I were repeatedly treated thusly. You are a very fortunate individual to be able to maintain your composure no matter what. I understand the shouting. It is uncomfortable probably for you that some of these shouters are Democrat. I really don't think Obama and Pelosi are representative of mainsteam Democrats. Right now Republicans are not your enemy. Obama and Pelosi are. Clean that up and we are back in business with civil discourse. Until that is done your Party is harboring individuals in power who threaten the economic, ideologic and moral soundness of this country. Those Democrats that are stepping up are patriots. I applaud them.

Jim -Hyper is Cana... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jim -

Hyper is Canadian, even without 'eh' in his statements.

Hyper -

"Why? Public policy is not written to be understood by people; it's written to help people and make their lives better (ostensibly). I agree that nobody--Democrats or Republicans--has made an effort to distil their positions into something digestible, which is the job of politicians and not policy writers. The bill being 1,000 pages long is not in and of itself a problem. I'm actually surprised that they were able to spell out the entire thing in only 1,000 pages. Health care reform is a pretty massive, complicated undertaking."

My emphasis of your words there at the last. Anyhow - BECAUSE it's such a massive, complicated undertaking - what's the damn rush to get it passed before anyone can read it, discuss it, debate it, or even weigh the thing on a scale to see how many trees will have to die so it'll be published?

That's what's pissing me off so much about this - the thing isn't even supposed to take full effect for three or four years, yet we've got a "passitrealquick, voteforitrightnow, itwon'taffectyourcurrentinsurance, hurryhurrydon'treadit, notimetoreviewthedetails, justsignonthebottomlineandopenyourwallet don'tbelievepeopleit'llactuallyreducethedefict you'llthankusforthislater" rush.

It smells like a con to me. (Either that, or a used car salesman working an unaccompanied 18 year old.) You don't give the mark time to think - you get what you're after and run before they figure out they've been scammed.

And when you've got Arlan Specter saying that he doesn't read 1000 page bills - hell, they could put anything in and we wouldn't know until it was too late.

Where's the promised transparency? Whoops - no time for it! And you've got to wonder just WHY.

It is a felony to conspire ... (Below threshold)
Rob:

It is a felony to conspire to interfere with a government function, and each of these town-hall meetings is a government function.

hyper:_Mike_: pro... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

hyper:
_Mike_: provide one example of a Canadian, Brit, Japanese (etc.) citizen being jailed because of the fact that their government has a single-payer system.

The only way I can entirely opt out of the government (i.e. tax payer) funded system is to not pay taxes. Certainly, I need not provide examples of people who don't pay their taxes who are jailed.

Having an argument... (Below threshold)
The Big O!:
Having an argument is one thing; trying to prevent anyone from explaining their point of view or asking a question is actually silencing the free speech of others, and should not be tolerated.

Just a reminder, folks, that hyperbolist wants dissenters to be dragged off by the police.

We must forcibly eliminate those who oppose the State; only then can a free and open dialog occur.

DaveD: an example of a well... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

DaveD: an example of a well-run federal program in the United States would be the Pell Grant program. The American Olympic program seems to yield pretty good results too, doesn't it? And what about the armed forces?

You can look at the health care systems of Japan and Sweden as two examples of well-run government programs from other countries.

As for civil discourse, I'm actually not a patient person, and I don't take to being condescended to very well. When that happens, I get angry, and sometimes I raise my voice. However, that's not what I'm talking about here. These people are screaming and shouting before the conversation even begins. This Don Jeror guy has no idea what he's talking about, but he doesn't let that stop him from trying to embarrass Steny Hoyer in front of a bunch of cameras.

jim: I see you've elected to go with 'willful ignorance'. In that segment, Maddow lists some of the sponsors of these protests, and then explains which industry groups fund these organizations. So we know that that's what's happening, and those of us who understand what the word 'astroturf' means in this context accept that this is a good example of effective astroturfing. Just be honest about it, that's all. It's not asking a lot.

As for that example, yes, you're right: wait times suck, and Canada's system is deeply imperfect. It's a good thing for Americans, then, that Obama is proposing a public option only; and that nobody is going to prevent someone from paying for extra coverage or paying out of pocket for additional services and products that are not covered. You don't have to be afraid: Karl Marx isn't going to steal your lunch money.

Oh shut up, Big O. Dissent ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Oh shut up, Big O. Dissent is great, but disrupting an event is not dissent: it's creating a public disturbance! Remember when that Gates prick was arrested for doing so, and every conservative in the world thought that was just fine? And there wasn't even a town hall event taking place on his front lawn!

JL: I totally agree that there is no reason to rush on health care reform. It's more important to get it right and get it done eventually, than to pass a huge bill that probably contains numerous flaws that both Democrats and Republicans would have a problem with. So on that note I don't disagree; but I fail to understand what a bunch of people who have little understanding of the issue screaming "SOCIALISM!" adds to the debate.

Hyper cracks me up. He real... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Hyper cracks me up. He really does. He lives in an alternate universe. I participated in Tea Parties and one town hall and I did not hear from any "group" about it. It was a friend of a friend. But I guess Maddow knows. Cheesh! What an idiot.

Of course when any conservative writer speaks at a college, Hyper came out strong against the "assholes". Oh wait! He didn't. Being the little hypocrit he is.

This is what Obama and his apostles miss, there is a surge of citizens tired of all government spending and lying. Against both parties. So, lefties, keep going on with your fake boogy man argument and continue to insult the citizens either dem or rep. It will only help. ww

I rarely went to see conser... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

I rarely went to see conservatives speaking at any of the universities I went to, Willie. And when I did, people certainly asked them pointed questions but nobody tried to disrupt the event. Furthermore, what the hell does this have to do with anything?

I would be more likely to b... (Below threshold)
Rance:

I would be more likely to believe the sincerity of the protesters, if more of them actually knew who/what they are protesting. But when they start out, like they did in Philadelphia, by booing the management of the meeting hall, I have my doubts.

Oh shut up, Big O.... (Below threshold)
The Big O!:
Oh shut up, Big O.

I bet you wish you had some police on hand to drag me away, eh?

Since you don't, as a consolation prize, you can report my "fishy" casual conversation to MiniTru using flag@whitehouse.gov.

The Thought Police need more brave and loyal cadets like you, hyperbolist!

Hyper hasn't heard of any c... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Hyper hasn't heard of any conservative speakers getting shouted down by the left. Do you believe that? I don't. ww

Hahaha. More ludicrous con... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Hahaha. More ludicrous conservative bullsh*t. I can't believe I used to be a conservative Republican. No one is saying that dissent is bad, or that people should not be permitted to disagree. Certainly, though, these town hall meetings should be held in a respectful and civil atmosphere. Instead, the right's tactics are to disrupt, harass and intimidate. I expect this of Hugo Chavez's supporters. Now, I fully expect it of conservatives. Both use loud threatening cohorts to disrupt those with whom they disagree. And what a joke to claim that these disrupters belong to some "grassroots" movement. They do not. Most are highly organized (of the wingnut tea-bagging variety). Moreover, there is no "snitching" here. Democrats are asking that the right's misinformation be communicated to them so that Democrats have a chance to address it. That is perfectly consistent with free speech. At the end of the day, the right is imploding. Their agenda is failing, their constituency is quickly becoming the most ignorant, least educated, and most crass sector of society. That's good for progressives, because every time these fools scream and shout, it alienates moderates. The right lost the last election, and it will continue to do so for some time to come simply because the rest of America isn't nearly as dumb as these tea bagging fools.

Hyperbolist - Spea... (Below threshold)
jim:

Hyperbolist -

Speaking of willful ignorance:

Obama is proposing a public option only

This is objectively false. Page 16 of the bill in question prohibits new enrollments on private plans starting January 1 of the year the plan goes into effect. Over time that means that private plans will see their membership decline(through deaths and people changing jobs) and private insurance will become unsustainable.

As recently as last year Obama is quoted as saying he is for single payer.

So when you say "nobody is going to prevent someone from paying for extra coverage" you are lying because the bill does exactly that. Note that when Dems address this they say that "you can keep your existing coverage if you want" They never address the fact that they will prohibit new enrollments.

Yes waiting doesn't only suck in Canada, it kills. 80% of colon cancers are treatable at time of diagnosis. By the time treatment is available that goes does to 40%. My suggestion is eat lots of fiber because the idea of flipping a coin to see if the wait for the government to get around to treating me is going to kill me sucks.

Obviously Jim #63 and jim #... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Obviously Jim #63 and jim #15,24,26,35,41,42,46,49,50,64 and here are two different posters.

(Unless I am experiencing a psychotic break which is possible, but I haven't told myself about it yet)

Jim, from post #15. Every ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Jim, from post #15. Every single one of your assertions is demonstrably false. You just allege your bullsh*t with absolutely no backup. Typical wingbat conservative drivel.

The World Health Organizati... (Below threshold)
Jim:

The World Health Organization ranks the U.S.'s health care system number 37 in the world; behind Costa Rica, and just ahead of Slovenia. The top-ranked countries all offer universal health coverage. Moreover, life-expectancy in the top-ranked countries tops that in the U.S. (a pretty good -- an objective -- indicator regarding quality of health care). So, I guess conservative want to preserve our status as number 37, as well as our lackluster life-expectancy rates? Oh, and wwjd? To hear the right, screw the 45-50 million uninsured in this country.

JimDemonstrably fa... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jim

Demonstrably false?

Jan Shakowsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfOWnZ82Pm4

Obama said he supported single payer at the SEIU forum in 2007 (I had said '08 I stand corrected)

Barney Frank saying that the public option should lead to single payer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3BS4C9el98

He also says that he is a big supporter of single payer and laments that he might not have the votes for it.

As to the bill go read it yourself I've made the citations.

And you can google the Quebec court decision. Canadian health stats are correct as well.

If you are saying hat I am lying about the tea parties that I have attended being astroturf demonstrations where people were bused in you are sadly mistaken.

The difference is I post facts which can be argued and you attack me personally because you basically have nothing to say that defends your position.

Who Ranks the US 37th?... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Who Ranks the US 37th?

So What?

1) The WHO rankings are from 2000 so they are getting old.

2) the WHO rankings are not nased on quality of care but on "fairness" of distribution and financing. The more socialized the system the better it scored. So a system that provides poor care but provides equally poor care to the rich and the poor scored high. A system that the poor paid nothing but the rich paid for scored high.

On the other hand a system where there was excellent care but it the poor weren't sufficiently subsidized scored low.

The documents are online for anyone who can use Google and WHO is quite up front about how they measured things.

So to answer your question: Yes I would rather we stay at 37 then to decrease the quality of the health care that is provided, which is what is going to happen with Obama.

Jim m, my quarrel was with ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Jim m, my quarrel was with your post number 15 (frankly, I did not review your other posts). In post number 15 you claim: "Now that the left is in power we get the White House asking for dissenters to be reported to the Federal Government," "Alcee Hastings [is] proposing legislation to inter political dissidents, Homeland Security defining political opposition as terrorist threats, The White House supporting the communist overthrow of Honduras by false elections and electoral manipulation and on and on." Those are serious charges, and you provide no evidence to support it beyond your own ipsi dixit.

Exactly, jim m.The... (Below threshold)
iwogisdead:

Exactly, jim m.

There were 5 criteria addressed in the 2000 WHO report--3 of those criteria had to do only with "fairness." In fact, a system which gave nobody any healthcare at all would score very high, because everyone was treated the same.

The other two criteria were life expectancy and responsiveness to health issue. The US didn't do all that well in life expectancy, but that's a questionable criteria since it doesn't reflect healthcare very well--in fact genetics has far more to do with that than healthcare.

And, the only criteria dealing with actual healthcare? That "responsiveness" thing? The US was at the top. That's why everybody from the whole world comes here for treatment.

In post number 15 ... (Below threshold)
The Big O!:
In post number 15 you claim: "Now that the left is in power we get the White House asking for dissenters to be reported to the Federal Government," ... Those are serious charges, and you provide no evidence to support it beyond your own ipsi dixit.

I suggest you report these disloyal "fishy" rumors to the Thought Police using flag@whitehouse.gov, "Jim."

(Since you were apprently too lazy to read the original post and are unfamiliar with the new White House snitch program, you can read all about it on the White House blog:

These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can't keep track of all of them here at the White House, we're asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.
)

Jim m, if you look at the W... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Jim m, if you look at the WHO report, you will see that the relevant rankings are based primarily numerous objective and measurable factors. It is misleading to suggest that the report is based on some subjective "fairness" test. Now, the WHO does report on access to health care, but that's not subjective, it's objective: are a country's citizens able to obtain health care when they need it. For too many Americans, the answer is no.

Moreover, you say: "Yes I would rather we stay at 37 then to decrease the quality of the health care that is provided, which is what is going to happen with Obama." That's great for you. No doubt, you have health insurance. But what is your answer to the 45 to 50 million Americans who cannot afford health insurance? And the millions more who are under-insured?

Again, one great indicator of a nation's health -- life expectancy -- weighs against the current U.S. system, and in favor of universal health care.

Hyper,I will accept ... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Hyper,
I will accept your comment about the Pell Grant Program as being a sound program for need based financial support for college. I will be very happy if health care reform also focused on those truly in need and was not as presently being formulated to slowly corral the majority if not every American into a government-managed system.

Jim - OKHas... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jim -
OK

Hastings submitted an ammendment to HR2647 that allows the Atty General sole discretion to declare a group a hate group based on finding them to be of an extremist nature.

Napolitano has already released a report labeling as extremist groups that believe in low taxes, small government, or merely opposed the current administration

HR 645 calls for Napolitano to set up a minimum of 6 camps for housing people for any purpose as "deemed appropriate" by the Secretary of DHS.

It allows the government to designate as dangerous and to detain people in facilities created for the purpose of housing them long term

As to the overthrow of Honduras, I simply point to the fact that their Supreme Court ordered him removed. That they found the results, both raw vote totals and certified results, of the proposed referendum allowing Zalaya to modify the constitution and remain in office.

Please explain how he had results and vote totals for a referendum that never took place? Please explain how he is backed by Chavez, Ortega, Castro and that he is trying o subvert his country's constitution and persuade me that he is not communist like the others.

Actually being between jobs... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Actually being between jobs I do not have insurance.

As to the 45-50 million it is widely acknowledged that this includes illegal aliens who I should not have to pay for. It also includes self employed, who if we allowed hem to pay for insurance with pretax dollars like other people would be able to afford insurance. It includes people like myself who are only temporarily without insurance.

When you subtract out all the people who could easily be included in an existing program or who could get privater insurance if the tax laws were given a small modification you get down to under 10 million people who are both citizens or legal residents and need something .

Yes by all means we should take over 17% of the economy for the sake of 3% of he population.

Jim m, maybe you got the nu... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Jim m, maybe you got the numbers mixed up, but when I look at THOMAS, HR2647 is: "To authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2010 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe military personnel strengths for such fiscal year, to provide special pays and allowances to certain members of the Armed Forces, expand concurrent receipt of military retirement and VA disability benefits to disabled military retirees, and for other purposes." It's sponsor is listed as Rep. Ike Skelton of Missouri.

HR645 (sponsored by Hastings) is clearly intended to provide temporary emergency housing and relief in the event of a national emergency, such as Katrina. Your effort to import a nefarious purpose to it is misguided and baseless. For real illegal detentions, look to the Bush/Cheney administration.

Re Honduras, in your original post you said: "The White House [is] supporting the communist overthrow of Honduras by false elections and electoral manipulation and on and on." Not true. Zelaya was democratically elected. The President, along with just about every other Western leader (including conservatives outside the U.S.), is refusing to recognize the legitimacy of a military coup in a part of the world that has suffered too much because of them. Zelaya was bad, and he was unpopular, and he was on his way out in a few months anyway. But a coup set an unacceptable precedent. Period.

I disagree that it is misle... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I disagree that it is misleading to say that the fairness test is subjective.

The very notion that it is more fair that healthcare be subsidized to the point of absolute equality is something that can be reasonably debated. The fact that WHO sets a standard that ranks countries in part based on the notion that it is more fair to transfer wealth to pay for health care is itself a subjective decision.

Again quality was not independent of any measure of access or financial fairness. If you want to rank on availability of high quality healthcare regardless of cost the US would rank at the top.

JimCite actual examp... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim
Cite actual examples of American citizens that could not get heath care. Someone that went to a clinic or the R and was sent away.
Seriously, put up or shut up.
Bonus points for examples since 1980, double bonus for 2000 or later.

Jim m, if you look at th... (Below threshold)
iwogisdead:

Jim m, if you look at the WHO report, you will see that the relevant rankings are based primarily numerous objective and measurable factors. It is misleading to suggest that the report is based on some subjective "fairness" test.

Here are the criteria: 1) Responsiveness, 2) Fairness of financial contribution, 3) Distribution of Health in the Populations, 4) Distribution of Financing, 5) Overall Level of Health.

In Responsiveness (actual medical care), the US is at the top. Overall Level of Health is measured by life expectancy. As I indicated before, there are too many factors other than healthcare which go into this to make it a highly valid indicator of the quality of healthcare. The other three have to do with "fairness" and "distribution."

http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_world_health_ranks.html

I disagree that the coup su... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I disagree that the coup such as it was is wrong. Zelaya was trying to subvert the constitution. By allowing him to remain in office they ran the risk that he would accomplish his aim.

I referred to an amendment to the HR2647 not the main bill. The amendment in question is largely reasonable until t gets to he point of allowing the Atty Gen to designate as a hate or extremist group anyone he sees fit. I think that this would be unreasonable regardless of what party was in power and I would object to it either way.

LD, If Wizbang makes... (Below threshold)

LD,
If Wizbang makes up crap, why are you
reading it, posting here, and having it rub
off on you by association?
Maybe you should MoveOn.org

Over all level of health an... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Over all level of health and is not accurately reflected by life expectancy in the US.

If you measure life expectancy solely on medical deaths then yes. However, if you include (which I believe this report does) deaths from homicide, suicide, work related deaths, auto accidents, other accidental deaths and environmental disasters then the US fairs rather poorly.

The US also suffers from a large immigrant population that comes in from abroad having received poor health care and that is reflected in both life expectancy as well as infant mortality

So 1 out of 5 measures is actually reflective of health care in the US the others are social measures and the 5th does not reflect medical health.

Saud REF post 1</p... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Saud

REF post 1

Who was it that said " we will remember you " ?

Oh yeah that was Barrack Obama.

Perhaps I should restate th... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Perhaps I should restate the above. The US definitely does not 'suffer' from an immigrant population. Rather the statistics of US health suffer due to that population.

The greatness of the US is primarily due to immigration and there is little to argue about that.

Hyper - "If conservativ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Hyper - "If conservatives would be honest about this, then discussion moving forward would be worthwhile; in the meantime, though, these protests must be taken as totally disingenuous and unspontaneous."

For the sake of argument lets call that a true fact that some or all the town hall meetings are populated by those that have been paid off in some fashion.

Doesn't that raise the question of, and so? What's the problem with it?

It wasn't a problem when the Populist Rage Bus made it's tour of AIG homes in Connecticut.

It wasn't a problem with you liberal hacks when pay-for-play hacks like ACORN and their affiliate Connecticut Working Families Party did it in March.

It damn sure isn't a problem with liberal hacks such as yourself when the code pinkos disrupt everything from local political meetings to Congressional Hearings.

Why is it a problem now hyper?

HyperYOu talk abou... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Hyper

YOu talk about stacking town halls when you have the unions saying they are going to send enforcers to confront people at the town halls.

KEEP DRINKING THAT KOOL AID.

Jim m, if you have the time... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Jim m, if you have the time, look at factcheck.org, they address in detail all of your claims regarding the number of uninsured, and their access to care:
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/the_real_uninsured.html.
Your 3 percent number is unsupported by the statistics. Moreover, the policies being debated do NOT mandate a government take over of health care. That's a false hobby horse of the right.

Jim m, you say: "Cite actu... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Jim m, you say: "Cite actual examples of American citizens that could not get heath care. Someone that went to a clinic or the R and was sent away." Anecdotes are emotionally compelling, but not terribly reliable. So, I'm not sure why you want "actual examples." In any event, if one breaks a leg and needs medical attention. Yes, they can go to the emergency room and they'll get treated. All of us, then, pay for that treatment through higher health insurance costs. But, there are plenty of horror stories of people with fatal diseases denied treatment because they had no health care. That's simply undeniable.

hyper - "I rarely went ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

hyper - "I rarely went to see conservatives speaking at any of the universities I went to, Willie. And when I did, people certainly asked them pointed questions but nobody tried to disrupt the event."

Tell me you really didn't write that and I dreamed it.

Tell me which is it, are you willfully ignorant or just plain ignorant of the many occasions the last few years of Rep/conservative campus speakers being physically attacked via pies tossed their way or otherwise prevented from speaking.

Community organizers...... (Below threshold)
timajin:

Community organizers...

...meet REAL American citizens!

They never expected this. They counted on apathy while they looted our nation. Well, they certainly didn't count on the true spirit of Americans that will fight for Liberty at all cost. Believe it. This is a fight. And it's fire on fire, because they can't take their own style of warfare and they certainly cannot sustain it for as long as we can or with as many people.

Bring it On Dems! GLOD

Hey, timajin, great imperso... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Hey, timajin, great impersonation of a rabid conservative wingnut! Awesome! You really sound like one of those dimwitted right wing thugs. That's great!

The liberal whacked out lef... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The liberal whacked out lefties ALWAYS worry about what someone thinks of them. First it was France and Germany. Now WHO.

Of course the illegal alien population has a lot to do with the numbers and ranking of our system.

20 percent of Americans are uninsured and 10% choose that. I do not find that a crisis and it is what others have found also. We have been lied to by the left and Obama. He challenged the american people to get involved in the debate, we did, now he is running. Reverting to the "Hitler", "Nazi's", "mob", "intimidation", etc. The sign of a very desperate president.

Okay JIM and HYper, go ahead and report me to Obama's brown shirts. ww

Jim,Citing an actual... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim,
Citing an actual example, or even a reliable statistic (not having insurance does not equal no access to healthcare) in not the same as anecdotal.

So show us how often people really aren't getting the treatment they need. If it is such a large and obvious problem, the data should be easy for you to provide.
While you're at it, care to break down how many of the uninsured choose to be that way?

One last thing,
My name ain't Jim M. :)

We're all fish now!... (Below threshold)
Brett:

We're all fish now!

Oh, and Jim....If th... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Oh, and Jim....
If this is true:

But, there are plenty of horror stories of people with fatal diseases denied treatment because they had no health care. That's simply undeniable.

You should be able to prove it with links in a matter of minutes.

Unless you are full of it.

Jim # 89I did not ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jim # 89

I did not say that you have misattributed it to me. And in this you and I are agreed. People can always get treated and patient dumping happens to be illegal already.

As to your statement that in #88 that this does not mandate a government take over of healthcare please explain how that is if private insurance enrollments are illegal post 1/1/2013? If new enrollments are prohibited then you cannot sustain private insurance.

If government is the sole payer then it has defacto control. Already medicare spells out what it will pay for any given procedure or test. Already government has control over whether or not a given service can be provided at any given hospital. When government is the sole payer and can dictate what hospitals can do which procedures and what they will be paid for them then what else would you call it?

Jim - There are pe... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jim -

There are people who have fatal diseases in the US who cannot afford treatment.

There are also people in other countries who could otherwise afford treatment but are denied due to rationing schemes.

There are also people in other countries who have treatable diseases that progress to untreatable while they wait for therapy.

One only has to look at the remarkable disparity between the mortality rates for major cancers in socialized medicine countries compared to he US to realize that socialized medicine is failing a great many people.

Liberals like to think of it as a panacea, but it has many evils.

It is a hard choice to make: Some people will be unable to afford health care and not receive treatment or all people will be able to afford health care but will die waiting in line.

That is the real decision that we are asked to make. I for one (and many people agree with me) would rather have the first problem. Everyone can do something about affording health care. We can borrow money or seek charity or find a way to earn it or otherwise scrape together the finds. We have some control.

But with socialized medicine you do not have control. You must wait unless you have the political pull to get put first in line.

So we are all equal, except some people are more equal than others.

I've been spamming them all... (Below threshold)

I've been spamming them all day - sending them youtoob links of Obsama, Peloski and Reidski doing their thing. I'm chortling so hard that I peed myself a little.

Hyper -"JL: I t... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Hyper -

"JL: I totally agree that there is no reason to rush on health care reform. It's more important to get it right and get it done eventually, than to pass a huge bill that probably contains numerous flaws that both Democrats and Republicans would have a problem with. So on that note I don't disagree; but I fail to understand what a bunch of people who have little understanding of the issue screaming "SOCIALISM!" adds to the debate."

Like I said, I've got problems with the speed of this thing. I've also got some problems with the language being used to force this along. We're told we must do it because XX% of people aren't covered by health insurance - without mentioning whether they're legals or not, whether they're eligible for other programs or not, whether they can get private insurance or not - in the end, it seems more to me like someone in the White House wants to set up this massive, ungainly thing knowing full well it's not EVER going to be trimmed back to an effective, affordable program.

Having taken on a life of its own - it will be untouchable. Even if it needs to be killed and replaced down the road.

The people screaming about "Socialism!" recognize that this is going to be one hell of an expensive beast that'll likely cause more harm than good. Like it or loathe it, they got the attention focused on this thing and have slowed down the rush to get it passed. And I'm thinking that's much more of a good thing than a bad one.

Dissent is great, ... (Below threshold)
Dissent is great, but disrupting an event is not dissent:

It's amusing that you display your righteous indignation only when it's lefties who are on the receiving end. As I recall, you didn't have much of a problem with Ann Coulter getting a pie in the face.

As I recall, you didn't ... (Below threshold)
Don't Tase Me Bro!:

As I recall, you didn't have much of a problem with Ann Coulter getting a pie in the face.

Or that guy that got taser'd...you know, the protester at the Kerry thing?

As to the 45-50 million ... (Below threshold)
Don't Tase Me Bro!:

As to the 45-50 million it is widely acknowledged that this includes illegal aliens who I should not have to pay for. It also includes self employed, who if we allowed hem to pay for insurance with pretax dollars like other people would be able to afford insurance. It includes people like myself who are only temporarily without insurance.

It also includes young adults 18-35 who feel no need for health insurance, because they are perfectly healthy and feel it a waste of their money.

Compare:

I have no children or other dependents, so why would I need life insurance.

My cousin doesn't drive, has no car (he lives in NYC)...why would he need car insurance?

Marc to Hyper: "Tell me ... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

Marc to Hyper: "Tell me which is it, are you willfully ignorant or just plain ignorant of the many occasions the last few years of Rep/conservative campus speakers being physically attacked via pies tossed their way or otherwise prevented from speaking."

Hyper isn't, nor was he ever, concerned about the conservative voice being heard over the din of lefty protestations and pie throwing. I distinctly remember him asking about the "super funny" video of the time someone tried to throw a pie in Ann Coulter's "stupid face". Not to mention his long winded explanation on why conservative professors and conservative ideas should have a "minimal" presence in any academic environment.

Rob #53,are'nt we all as Am... (Below threshold)
1903A3:

Rob #53,are'nt we all as Americans The Goverment? Oh yea thats right,the dems and the elite want to take all that away from us God fearing,gun tote'in middle American M-----F-----!Well I got news for ya,kiss my a--,I for one aint gonna let that happen to my country or my family.

Rachel Maddow listing names... (Below threshold)
Alan:

Rachel Maddow listing names of organizers busing people in to disrupt townhall meetings does not constitute evidence. She got those names from Pelosi, who made them up out of thin air. Show me the buses and show me the money. Its called "projection" -- the left does this all the time, so when they see genuinely upset citizens taking their representatives to task for what they feel is bad legislation, the only way they can account for it is to accuse them of being organized. I'll name you the triumvirate who organized the townhall protests: Obama, Pelosi and Reid. Just like King George organized Washington, Adams, Jefferson, et. al.

Well, I got back on line an... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Well, I got back on line and tried to submit a link to a website recounting first-hand stories of people dying in the U.S. because they could not afford treatment. It looks like the sponsors of this site, though, have not published it and are deciding whether to censor it. So, if they don't accept the link, look for yourselves by googling: "people denied health insurance cancer". You will find tons of sites discussing this.

By the way, where was the r... (Below threshold)
Jim:

By the way, where was the righteous indignation of these so-called "real" Americans when Bush and Cheney were subverting the Constitution, spying on U.S. citizens, costing the lives of our uniformed men and women (most barely adults) for a manufactured war, torturing detainees, denying people basic due process, including the right to be charged if detained, the right to mount a defense and the right a trial (not to mention a speedy trial). What complete and utter hypocrites.

Hey Marc, my long-time bff!... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Hey Marc, my long-time bff! How're things? Great, I hope! I went to school in Canada so when I said "nobody tried to disrupt the event", that was a 100% truthful statement. We don't heckle our guest speakers, unless they're B'nai Brith or Hamas nutjobs (and even then they're only heckling each other because nobody else cares what either group has to say).

I went to dozens of guest lecturers, and while maybe only five or six were 'conservative', they were always treated to a nice meal afterwards. Once, upon request from the chair of the department, my friends and I took a legal philosopher from Duke--a guy who defended the legal framework of Bush's GWOT--to a wine bar with some friends afterwards and a had a great time! He was a really nice guy, and we exchanged pleasant barbs and witty anecdotes until the place closed at 1 a.m. Nobody threw a pie or called anyone a fascist.

The reason someone like Ann Coulter deserves to get hit in the face with a pie is because it's really funny and she's one of a few people in the world who deserve absolutely no respect. I would include Jonah Goldberg on that list, except for that putz, a pie in the face would be taken the wrong way. ("DELICIOUS CREAMY PRIZE FOR MY BIG SMART IDEAS!!!")

Lol. Gotta love the rigged... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Lol. Gotta love the rigged voting system on here.

JLawson & Justrand & Jim & ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

JLawson & Justrand & Jim & DaveD:
How does shouting downs to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone. Especially when the organizations that are telling them where to go and what to do and say are Republicans political operatives, not real grassroots. How does shouting someone down or chasing out (lynch mob) advanced the debate, it does not. So I think the American people will see through all of this and know, like the teabagger, the birthers, these lynch mobs types are just the same, people who have to resort to these tactics because they have no leadership to articulate what they real want. It's easy to pickup a bus load of people who hate, and that's all I been seeing, they hate and can't debate. Too bad.

So, according to hyper, it'... (Below threshold)

So, according to hyper, it's OK to disrupt public meetings if the speaker deserves it.

Alrighty, then. Good to know. I'll have to remember this next time he starts crying like a schoolgirl because someone spoke in a loud voice to of some of his left wing buddies.

Like on this thread, for instance.

Hey, OregonMuse, I have nev... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Hey, OregonMuse, I have never:
a) Suggested that all conservatives are traitors;
b) That they need to be rounded up in camps;
c) That the United States should convert Afghan Muslims to Christianity at gunpoint.

The list could be much longer but those are the only Coulterisms I can produce off the top of my head, and there's no way I'm googling that freakshow. I'd have nightmares of ugly women with large Adam's apples.

Once I do say something as horrendously offensive as what Coulter has said about liberals/women/Muslims/gays/etc., you can come to my house and throw a pie in my face and I won't have any right to complain. Until then, quit being a sanctimonious baby.

Paul: there are a lot of people at the protests who are private citizens acting of their own accord--heck, most of them probably are! The problem is, the events are being coordinated by industry groups. That's totally fine! Companies are allowed to advocate for their own interests! If they were more transparent about it, though, this entire fracas wouldn't seem so staged, phony, and tiresome.

And yeah, the screaming and anti-government epithets don't help their cause much, except to further stoke the fears of crazy people who watch Fox News.

Jim, Wizbang was do... (Below threshold)

Jim,
Wizbang was down yesterday, system failure.

Hey, OregonMuse, I... (Below threshold)
Hey, OregonMuse, I have never...

Whoa, there. We're not talking about what you personally have or have not said, my point was about how you treat your political enemies vs. your hissy fits about how your political allies are getting payback, and this is where your sanctimonious outrage comes through loud and clear, just like it does with your complaints about racism, etc.

And I could point out any number of left-wing hacks that make Coulter look like a grade-school nun, and I never hear you complain about them. It's only when it's your ox that's getting gored do you complain about the unfairness of it all.

So thanks for trying to justify your hypocrisy. It didn't work, but at least you've admitted you're using a double-standard. So I guess that's progress.

So Jim... post em again. U... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

So Jim... post em again. Unless you are full of it.

Paul -"How does... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Paul -

"How does shouting downs to stop the conversation of the healthcare debate at town hall meetings, endears them to anyone."

Gee, Paul - I don't know. Maybe they're not there for a 'conversation', because a 'conversation' implies that BOTH sides are actually being given a chance to speak, and BOTH sides are willing to LISTEN!

Instead, given the way the Congressmen have been acting, apparently the people are supposed to just shut up and listen to their betters tell them how things are going to be. Any POLITE input seems to be ignored - so now it's necessary to stack the deck with union members and keep the people this will affect out - so they can't register their disagreement.

The folks shoving health care didn't want to hear disagreement. It's very easy to ignore letters and phone calls from constituents regarding how fast this was being pushed through, and how many gaps there were, and how they were concerned about costs. After all - who really cares what the peasants think?

Well, about all I can say is that they're finding out the peasants have had enough.

OM: what liberals that feat... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

OM: what liberals that feature prominently in the media say shit as horrendous as what Coulter spews? Which liberals that advocate hate crimes and genocide get as much airtime as that sick bitch? Oh, right: none of them. Nice attempt at equivocation, though.

Anyone who is a liberal and as horrible a person as Coulter should not be handed a microphone at a university or any other venue; similarly, no conservative identical or similar to Ann Coulter should be treated with respect until s/he retracts all of his/her statements advocating violence against his/her political opponents. And I'm not talking about the Taliban, but mainstream liberals. Seriously, OM, if you think any liberal on your TV set is half as bad as that twisted harpy, you need to cut back on the crazy pills.

JLawson: It is very Americ... (Below threshold)
Paul:

JLawson: It is very American to want to help our fellow countryman. I believe in my government especially our men and women in our military, firefighters and police. You, not so much. Lets face it the previous administration did nothing (except start two wars of choice that are bankrupting our country with all the "war profiteering" contracts to Halliburton) well you and I will just have to agree to not agree. I did not believe any of the Republican rhetoric before the last election and I do not believe them now. I do not believe that your sentiments are in line with the majority, but I did real enjoy your comments, good stuff.




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