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Uh oh: Even Liberals in Massachusetts having a Hard Time at Town Halls

This comes to us from Washington's Wake via Hot Air. The most outrageous piece of disinformation (since that is the administration's favorite word now, I thought I would use it) she says is that is HR 3200 will give the American people the same vast array of health care choices as she gets as a Congresswoman. And she says that with a straight face.


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Comments (47)

They can't even get their m... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

They can't even get their message straight, yet get upset when people accuse them of lying. Actually we should accuse them of SHEER STUPIDITY or LYING, maybe BOTH. Barry want's single payer, Frank wants single payer, Selebius wants single payer. ALL of them have said that private insurance will be done away with. Only difference is how long it will take.

They are not going to liste... (Below threshold)
UncleZeb:

They are not going to listen, they are changing the conversation by marginalizing us. This is bad folks and the kind of thing that leads to anarchy. That is not what we want or need. They need to listen and stop trying to gain control over our lives and pocketbooks.

"If it's such a great pl... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"If it's such a great plan, why did you opt out of it when you took the vote?"

Good damn question, ain't it?

A minute or so later, she says that she has a tremendous range of choices, based on what SHE was willing to pay.

What are her costs?

Check 'em out here. The overall rate info is here.

Without knowing what sort of plan she's on, it's hard to tell what her premiums are.

A straight HMO plan could run her anywhere from $40 biweekly (for herself only) to $368 for a top-end (judging by price) plan for herself and her family. (That's for her state, by the way.)

A straight Fee For Service plan would run from $38.85 for herself only to $244 biweekly for the whole family.

The charts also show that tab picked up by the government.

BTW, she gets paid about $174,000 a year base salary.

Now - I'll be GLAD to see government insurance, IF our premiums are around that level. But remember - this isn't FREE health care by any stretch of the imagination. The government picks up a good bit of the tab for her insurance - and the charts don't show copays or deductable limits.

And don't forget - the money to pay for all this has to come from somewhere. We're already real damn deep in debt - I'm thinking it's a very bad idea to go deeper in debt to fund this, no matter how appealing it might be.

BTW, someone should have to... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

BTW, someone should have told that union member right at the last to change out of her work shirt into something a bit less... notable.

David Vitter (R-LA) had no ... (Below threshold)
Rob:

David Vitter (R-LA) had no problems or disturbances at his "town-hall" meeting. I wonder why? Probably because he is a Republican.

NOT. Try, he pre-screened both the audience and questions from the audience. No one else was allowed to speak.

Wonder what he was afraid of?

While History does not repe... (Below threshold)
RickZ:

While History does not repeat itself, it most certainly does hiccup. Our aristocratic politicians cannot be bothered to read bills before they vote on them, they do not listen to our wishes, as if we work for them, and they denigrate honest and real grass-roots opposition to socialized medicine (by calling us unpatriotic and Nazis), which is what they are striving for with their single-payer doublespeak, no matter how much lipstick they throw on that socialist pig of an idea. We are fast approaching an American Revolution II, with the same rallying cry as the first one: Taxation Without Representation.

It appears as if the Dems are going to pass this abomination of a bill on a strict party line vote, the people they work for be damned. This cannot end well.

I also think that with all the astroturfing being done by the Dems through ACORN, the SEIU, and other Dem-sponsored groups, I have no doubt the Dems will pull a 'Sergei Kirov' move, as it's for the cause. That will allow a 'concerned' Obama to step in and calm things down by declaring martial law, followed by all the other totalitarian necessities, like confiscating all those pesky guns. Don't think it can't happen here? Just look at Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel's medical eugenics theories, and realize he is the brother of the WH Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, and an advisor, himself, to the Marxist in the Oval Office.

With Obama pushing, on all fronts, government control over the daily lives of the American citizenry, this is going to get really ugly. Fast.

Wow, Rick, that was a truly... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Wow, Rick, that was a truly amazing pile of crap. Heil, Obama!

Obama's healthcare plan ... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Obama's healthcare plan if based on a myth, which is that promoting better health reduces overall healthcare costs. That's simply not true and there are a number of studies that demonstrate that the longer a person lives the higher their lifetime healthcare costs will be.

Here's a study that compares obese, smoking, and healthy-living groups. Here's the last paragraph of their findings.

The model predicted that until the age of 56, yearly health costs were highest for obese people and lowest for healthy-living people. At older ages, the highest yearly costs were incurred by the smoking group. However, because of differences in life expectancy (life expectancy at age 20 was 5 years less for the obese group, and 8 years less for the smoking group, compared to the healthy-living group), total lifetime health spending was greatest for the healthy-living people, lowest for the smokers, and intermediate for the obese people.

Here's a study from Health Services Research, a government organization, titled The Lifetime Distribution of Health Care Costs. It concludes the following:

Per capita lifetime expenditure is $316,600, a third higher for females ($361,200) than males ($268,700). Two-fifths of this difference owes to women's longer life expectancy. Nearly one-third of lifetime expenditures is incurred during middle age, and nearly half during the senior years. For survivors to age 85, more than one-third of their lifetime expenditures will accrue in their remaining years.

The underlying principle is real simple, no matter how health the life style, everyone eventually dies. If not by a quick acting injury or disease, then by growing old and developing medical conditions along the way. The greater to life expectance of a group the greater their lifetime healthcare costs. This fundamental fact is the Achilles heal of Obamacare, yet it's not getting the publicity it needs. As you can see from the video, the politician's claim that improving public health will lower health costs goes unchallenged.

The inescapable conclusion is that the only way Obamacare can lower healthcare costs is to ration end-of-life care, which is exactly what we see in the UK and Canadian systems. Regardless of good intentions or not, ultimately, unsustainable costs will require such rationing unless the nation creates a real free market health care solution, with government paid private health insurance (not a government plan) for only those who can't afford it on their own.

This is for Rob above - Are... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

This is for Rob above - Are you afraid of what Rick said because he speaks the truth? I think you ought to read what Rick has to say again, and take your head out of where ever it is and start thinking instead of relying on what BHO is spewing. Obama is a disgrace to our country (because it is not his). Ezekial Emanuel has stated that when you are suffering from dementia or similar diseases, you cannot be covered under this health care plan because you are no longer a "productive citizen". That sounds like a Nazi talking. And what makes this even worse, is because Ezekial is a doctor!! What are the chances of you being covered by this health care plan if passed? You should be asking yourself some serious questions if you are supporting our fascist leader. I am just an old lady, but let me pass on some advice: don't agree with BHO just because he is black. Use some of the brains God gave you. He (BHO) cannot do anything for you. He will sell you down the river. Don't be a sheep being led to slaughter.

Madalyn,Do you buy... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Madalyn,

Do you buy your opinions somewhere, or just pull them out of your ass?

Conservatives,How ... (Below threshold)
SER Author Profile Page:

Conservatives,

How can we compete with the raw intellectual power that is "Rob." Have you notice how well thought out and nuanced his comments are? Wow.

Yeah, I'm really in awe of ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Yeah, I'm really in awe of Rob's intellectual powers. Last time I saw anything like that, I think it was in 1st grade....but then, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Rob - Not opinions FACTS! I... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

Rob - Not opinions FACTS! If the MSM is printing that Ezekial said that, then I guess it must be true, cause it didn't come from a conservative source. Just because you don't want to believe it does not mean it is not a fact. You are a poor victim of this administration and God help you cause you obviously are too stupid to help yourself. Before you go making statements regarding someone else, maybe you should start taking control of your life instead of listening to a bunch of crap that is being fed to you. Now, I will be as cruel as you are regarding my ass. I am almost 70 years old, and I can guarantee my ass is cuter than your face. HAHAHA!

"I guess it must be true... (Below threshold)
Rob:

"I guess it must be true, cause it didn't come from a conservative source"

Wow, it that ever funny. Everything in the MSM is true and everything in the conservative media is false? Are you serious?

Wait, Madalyn,I'm ... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Wait, Madalyn,

I'm confused. The MSM prints something Ezekial says, and it is true because it is in the MSM, but then you assume I read the MSM and am full of crap as a result.

I'm not sure, but you might actually to fit more contradictions in fewer words if you try harder.

The MSM prints something... (Below threshold)
RickZ:

The MSM prints something Ezekial says,

How about YouTube, asshole? We get to hear Ezekiel's eugenics plans straight from the horse's ass. No Fellatio Media required.

Rick,In case you d... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Rick,

In case you didn't notice, I was quoting Madalyn. That's why I used quotation marks("text")! They imply that the words between the quotes are not mine.

Sort of like putting "horse's ass" in quotes to describe your post.

"I'm not sure, but you m... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"I'm not sure, but you might actually to fit more contradictions in fewer words if you try harder."

On the other hand, you couldn't be a better troll. You could actually be a voice of civil and reasonable opposition, but I guess you just ain't got it in ya.

Rob - PAY ATTENTION!! I did... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

Rob - PAY ATTENTION!! I did not say I believed it JUST because it was reported by the MSM. I am saying for the MSM to report a FACT instead of hearing it on a conservative site, it was obviously heard by so many people it could not have been dismissed as "hearsay". Now do you understand??????

"If the MSM is printing ... (Below threshold)
Rob:

"If the MSM is printing that Ezekial said that, then I guess it must be true..."

Madalyn,

Usage of an if/then statement (a material implication or conditional sentence) means that if the antecedent is true ("the MSM is printing that Ezekial said that"), then the consequent is must be true ("it must be true"). In other words, a reasonable connection exists between the condition (the MSM reported it) and the consequence (it is true).

By the way, one can neither believe nor disbelieve facts. You're confused.

Rob - get real! I am not an... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

Rob - get real! I am not an educated person as far as school goes, but I do know lies and faslehoods when I see/hear them. You are being fed bulls**t and obviously love the taste, cause you keep opening your mouth for more. Go ahead and make fun of the fact that I am not educated or smart. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would agree with you, but let's get back to the most important thing. Obama is on a path of destruction for our country. You obviously like it, but I don't. I have the right to say so. Don't try and silence me by pointing out I am not perfect. Neither are you and neither is the creep that ACORN, SEIU, Rezko, Ayers, Wright, etc. bought the election for. Go ahead and criticize me, I can take it. What I can't take is the crap coming out of D.C. You would do well to try and listen to reason for once.

Sorry Madalyn, I was trying... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Sorry Madalyn, I was trying to follow Oyster's advice and be more civil and reasonable. Don't worry, you've only got 7.5 more years of Obama. We made it through eight years of Bush, it won't be long.

Madalyn - Rob can'... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Madalyn -

Rob can't 'get real' - he's too busy playing games with semantics and jotting up imaginary points. (500 more, and maybe he can buy a cup of coffee.) Maybe he feels if he's insulting enough, he can actually change the minds of people here. Or it could be he's just an annoying asshole, and would be one wherever he goes - whether here or over on DU.

Anyway, there's a good bit of passion out there regarding the attempt to grab health care. Found this little bit.

C-SPAN Caller Blasts Media's Coverage of Town Hall Protests | NewsBusters.org

LEAH IN MANCHESTER, NEW HAMPSHIRE: Hi, yeah, I just wanted to clarify a few things about these "manufactured, angered crowds." I've never been politically active in my life. I've never done anything like go to a protest ever. I started going to protests, these Tea Parties back on the Fourth of July, and the reason that you're seeing the numbers grow and swell and become bigger and bigger is not only because of the healthcare legislation, but like you said earlier, all these massive bills, thousands of pages long that are passed with almost no debate, no time for us to see what's in it, in direct controvertion (sp) of what was promised about transparency and a near era and we're going to know what we're doing in advance. I see, I see politicians admit on TV that they can't read it, that they can't understand it because of its complexity. Lawyers who are writing these bills say they need lawyers to tell them what's in the bill.

Now, when I watch the news people stand here and tell me that I am a member of a hired mob, that I've been called up by the Republican Party, they only wish they could have done something like this. I've never been contacted by any organized group. This is an organic movement, and when people stand there, and lie to me about what I know is going on, how can I trust them when they tell me it's going to save money when the Congressional Budget Office says it isn't? That it's going to cover everybody when the Congressional Budget Office says it isn't? That it's going to let me keep my, my healthcare when common sense tells you that's not what's going to be the end result of this when the government ends up providing all the healthcare which the man who wrote the bill in the beginning says. Go watch it, Jacob Hacker who wrote this says that in time, and President Obama said it, we will all be swallowed up in this government plan.

When people lie to us, we don't trust them when they give us platitudes about what's in the bill.

ROB HARRELL, C-SPAN "WASHINGTON JOURNAL" HOST: Leah, are you planning to, are there any town halls planned in your area, in your neck of the woods?

LEAH: No, my, my Congressmen are afraid. Now they won't even come out and meet us face-to-face. They want to do some phony telephone thing so that we can't judge their facial expressions. We can't say with a follow-up question, "I'm sorry, that didn't answer my question. Could you please?" You know, yes people are getting angry. That doesn't mean it's fake. That means it's real. And by the way, about the caller who says it's all racial, the only person I've seen that's been attacked, physically attacked, is a black man who was attacked by SEIU, and he says they were black. So, I'm getting tired of the race card. I'm getting tired of the lies. I'm getting tired of the media not telling us what's in these bills but giving us a bunch of "Republicans says this, Democrats say that." I don't care.
It bears repeating - "When people lie to us, we don't trust them when they give us platitudes about what's in the bill."

The perception is that the folks in Congress who want to see this pass aren't telling the truth about what's in it. (And considering the final bill hasn't been written - there's plenty of time to slip all sorts of garbage into it.)

That's not going to be changed by folks like Rob - if anything, they're going to make it worse.

Rob, you are a left winged ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Rob, you are a left winged partisan hack with no real thoughtful or insightfull reasoning. That is a fact. Do you believe it? ww

To all of you commenters: I... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

To all of you commenters: Isn't it great that we can yell and scream with a keyboard? That's what democracy is all about. It is about to be taken away from us. First of all, thanks to all of you who understand what I was trying to say. second, to all those who don't, I feel sorry that you can't open your mind enough to allow it in. I hold no hard feelings to anyone who has commented, because this is all new to me. I have just recently started reading blogs, (6 months ago I didn't know what a blog was) and it took a great deal of courage to post a comment. I am of an age where you were brought up "not to make any waves". I guess a made a few. Anyway, that's it for this scenario. Please, Rob, don't post something else to p*ss me off so I have to comment again. I just call it like I see it.

WildWillie,Why don... (Below threshold)
Rob:

WildWillie,

Why don't you spend a minute and comment on my very first post on this topic? It's #5.

Here is one link: http://thinkprogress.org/2009/08/09/vitter-mob/

I tried to post a second link contained within the first link, but the blog didn't like the length of the URL. You'll find it.

Madalyn, welcome aboard. Yo... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Madalyn, welcome aboard. You will enjoy Wizbang. It is by far one of my favorite sights.

I wouldn't pay any mind to the left wingers coming at you. They frequently try to throw you off your game by insulting you, your prose, your spelling or talk about Palin, Rove,etc. Some offer civil disagreement such as Paul Hooson. Others, just have to dig away in their juvenile way. So go ahead, make huge waves. It is liberating and fun. I read for the point not the ability to craft a sentence. ww

Madalyn,You only m... (Below threshold)
RickZ:

Madalyn,

You only make waves when the other side swallows water. I say, drown the bastages. Wave away!

Or some of us come onto a b... (Below threshold)
Rob:

Or some of us come onto a board with a post about town-hall meetings (#5 above), and point out an interesting aspect of a Republican-led meeting, but no one will comment because it is so difficult to rationalize such hyprocrisy.

Thank all of you for your c... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

Thank all of you for your comments. I have enjoyed this back and forth a great deal. Unfortunately, because so much is at stake I get rather emotional. I am not used to seeing innocent people denigrated in a public forum because they don't agree with our politicians. I watched the dems chew up and spit out the bush admin, but I didn't see a lot of Repubs physically assaulting them. Now I see thugs punching, pushing, threatening and slapping everday citizens that disagree with what the politicians are saying. They are trying to sell us a bill of goods that they have not even read. They are not going to be under this health care plan because they have heard how bad it is. What is it about what we are saying that they just don't get? Are they stupid? Are they ignorant? Are they afraid of the new admin? What? That is what I would like to know. Anyway, good luck to all of you. It has been fun, and I will continue to comment occasionally, just not the amount in the last couple of days. God bless all of you.

Rob -If you want t... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Rob -

If you want to post stuff for discussion, you could take it up with Kevin. Maybe he'd get you to replace Lee Ward.

Then again, nobody could replace Lee... never mind...

You mean the comments are n... (Below threshold)
Rob:

You mean the comments are not meant for discussion? My mistake. I guess they are for big Republican group hugs. That's OK. I didn't expect much anyway (and I certainly haven't gotten it).

I am not used to seeing ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

I am not used to seeing innocent people denigrated in a public forum because they don't agree with our politicians.

Oh, you didn't have the internet in 2003 when mainstream anti-war protesters were accused by faux-conservatives of being traitorous Saddam Hussein-loving pinkos? Did you sleep through the '04 election, when liberals and Democrats were painted as troop-hating surrender-monkeys? Not that John Kerry was much to get excited about, but you would have thought that he and those who tepidly supported him were all studying post-modern critical theory at Berkeley!

Those were such fun times, back when everyone was so nice and civil towards one another!

When fake-conservative Republicans win elections, it's fine to treat Democrats and liberals like losers; but when a liberal Democrat wins the election, and the fake-conservative Republicans get stomped to a pulp at the polls in states that were "safely" Red three years ago, it's un-American to treat those who lost--badly--like losers.

Got it!

Rob,Or so... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Rob,

Or some of us come onto a board with a post about town-hall meetings (#5 above), and point out an interesting aspect of a Republican-led meeting, but no one will comment because it is so difficult to rationalize such hyprocrisy.

I read the piece you linked to and nowhere does it say the audience was pre-screened as you said in post #5, only that it was a friendly audience. Obama has had a lot of friendly audiences, does that mean they are all pre-screened? The piece says that "Questions from audience members were screened and selected in advance of the event", which I doubt is factually correct the way it's written. Even so, had there be a number of opponents in the audience they could have shouted out slogans and been disruptive as in other meetings.

The reason David Vitter had a friendly audience is because Republicans are not pushing a partisan plan to reform healthcare, the very foundation of which is based on a myth (see post #8).

We all know that Medicare pays much less than private insurers for the same treatments, because as a government entity, they have the power to set prices. Healthcare providers pass the unpaid costs of treating Medicare patients on to private insurers, which raises premiums for everyone else. Obama then claims that fast rising premiums are why we need healthcare reform, but it's government run Medicare that's driving much of that increase. Now that's hypocrisy.

hyperbolist,What d... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

hyperbolist,

What did you sleep through all the fake-liberal Democrats protesting of Bush and the politician who supported the war. Now that there are protests against runaway spending and a poorly designed healthcare reform, Obama and Democrats are complaining about Americans protesting, calling them un-American and claiming it's some small organized group behind it. They just can't believe they are being protested against. Well, get used to it.

Rob -Certainly the... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Rob -

Certainly they're for discussion, you big goof.

Just don't be unhappy if people don't choose to discuss what you want to discuss.

And if you want to become a... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

And if you want to become a PRIMARY poster and author full entries at Wizbang, Kevin's the guy you'd need to contact. And persuade. Good luck.

Rob - "Or some of us co... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Rob - "Or some of us come onto a board with a post about town-hall meetings (#5 above), and point out an interesting aspect of a Republican-led meeting, but no one will comment because it is so difficult to rationalize such hyprocrisy."

Turn about is fair play Rob:

"Barack Obama Prescreens Reporters at Press-Conference."

Go ahead, point us anywhere on the net, with link, where you condemned that.

And while you're at it, point to where you condemned the organizer-in-chief for calling on HuffPo's Nico Pitney to ask a pre-screened question during a June press conference.

"Or some of us come onto... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"Or some of us come onto a board with a post about town-hall meetings (#5 above), and point out an interesting aspect of a Republican-led meeting, but no one will comment because it is so difficult to rationalize such hyprocrisy."

Let's see town hall meetings getting rowdy, people shouting each other down, some people even being physically abused and you're going to criticize someone for trying to set up a more organized meeting conducive to actual discussion. Maybe he's not afraid of anything. Looks to me like it's one of the very few meetings that actually accomplished something. One either wants the "mob" to shout people down or they want someone to take charge of the situation so questions get answered. Make up your mind.

How are pre-screened questi... (Below threshold)
Rob:

How are pre-screened questions conducive to discussion? Vitter only gets questions he already knows the answers to. Not very informative.

Let's keep on topic here. We are not "discussing" press conferences, only town-hall meetings.

Mac Lorry, if you doubt the statement "Questions from audience members were screened and selected in advance of the event" is inaccurate, please say why. This was widely reported. Check out http://www.thetowntalk.com/. I can't post the link to the story, because the website doesn't like the length of the url.

Rob - "I can't post the... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Rob - "I can't post the link to the story, because the website doesn't like the length of the url."

Then educate yourself and discover what tinyurl.com can do for you.

And BTW in the interests of keeping on topic, that being townhall meetings, here's Toady Gibbs side-stepping the issue of Obama's hand-picked townhall meetings.

"Toady"Is everythi... (Below threshold)
Rob:

"Toady"

Is everything just nasty with you people? Is it always a snide little comment or shitty little name? You really must be fundamentally unhappy. I would actually pity you, but your attitude is self-induced.

Mac Lorry, if you ... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:
Mac Lorry, if you doubt the statement "Questions from audience members were screened and selected in advance of the event" is inaccurate, please say why. This was widely reported.

The sentence is poorly written and can be easily misinterpreted, which is why you might have thought the audience itself was pre-screened. What really happened is that there were forms at the doors that people attending the meeting could use to ask their question. Those forms were collected at some point and Vitter selected the ones he wanted to answer. The person who wrote the selected question was allowed a follow-up. The reports of people being turned away are from members of the state's Democratic party, so I don't give those reports any weight. There are several YouTube videos that show plenty of empty seats and also at least two people asking questions from the floor.

My theory is that those who support Obamacare feel that the Democrats have the votes to pass it and they don't need to go to town hall meetings to express their support, thus, most folks at these meetings oppose Obamacare. It's like Bush having a town hall meeting about the Iraq war, who do you think would show up?

The actual numbers of people going to such town hall meetings and expressing their opposition to Obamacare might actually be small relative to the number of voters in a given area. The mistake Obama and other Democrats are making is using disparaging remarks against something so engrained in our tradition as town hall meetings where people get to express their opinion directly to their elected officials. Far more voters will see that as thuggery of the kind used by Chicago machine politicians and that will cost Obama a lot more support and permanently. As we saw with the Gates incident, Obama doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut.

>"The mistake Obama and ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

>"The mistake Obama and other Democrats are making is using disparaging remarks against something so engrained in our tradition as town hall meetings where people get to express their opinion directly to their elected officials."

Yove got that right, Mac. Because nothing sells a hideously expensive, vague and undefined program like anger, insults, and ridicule...

Rob - ever think of selling used cars? With your winning ways, you'd make a mint.

Rob - ""Toady" Is every... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Rob - ""Toady" Is everything just nasty with you people? Is it always a snide little comment or shitty little name? You really must be fundamentally unhappy. I would actually pity you, but your attitude is self-induced."

Well no everything isn't nasty. But as long as you accuse me of same I guess... what the hell.

You're a typical libturd quick to whine about reps stacking the townhall decks but when definitively shown your Messiah is doing the same you whine about name calling and avoid the valid point made.

Asshole.

Then again, nobod... (Below threshold)
Then again, nobody could replace Lee... never mind...

Lawson,
Ugh is right! ;)

Rob, What is your po... (Below threshold)

Rob,
What is your point?




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