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The 9/12 March on Washington

Andrea Shea King of Radio Patriot posted pictures that her congressman Rep. Bill Posey took at the 9/12 rally in Washington DC. Take a look at this crowd:

_Device Memory_home_user_pictures_IMG00035-20090912-1331.jpg
29322997-150592448949e1068cc03cb164469954_4aabd561-full.jpg
_Device Memory_home_user_pictures_IMG00034-20090912-1328.jpg

Michelle Malkin reported on her site that ABC News estimated the crowd to be 2 million people. Is President Obama listening? Nope. He got out of dodge and is at a health care rally in Minneapolis.

Update: Rick at Brutally Honest linked to this awesome time lapse video showing progression of the approximately 2 million people who marched in DC today:


Update 2: (From Kevin) - Look closely at the top photo. As a DC area resident and observer of many previous Washington Mall rallys, there's just no way that is anywhere near 2 million people. For the crowd to be over 1 million they would have to stretch back to the Washington Monument, which they clearly do not. From reports I've seen the crowd on Pennsylvania Ave. are the same people who ended up on the mall. From the looks of it in the first photo your talking about 100,000 to 200,000 people.


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Comments (79)

ABC is estima... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

ABC is estimating it at 2 million? Wow.

It'll be a trifle difficult to downplay this...

REALIBLE estimates range fr... (Below threshold)

REALIBLE estimates range from 500,000 to over 1.5 MILLION.

Thsu most media outlefts are saying things like:
"Thousands Rally in D.C."
and
"Large Rally in D.C."

but deep in their diseased little brains, the leaders of the Left really DO know the truth.

and the truth SHALL set us free!!

What a beautiful site!!!</p... (Below threshold)
shiloh:

What a beautiful site!!!

"Is President Obama listeni... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Is President Obama listening? Nope. He got out of dodge and is at a health care rally in Minneapolis."

I'm sure the MSM will ask Barry his thoughts on the number of people demonstrating in Washington. Maybe he'll try the "terrorist mob" thing again.

<a href="http://www.riehlwo... (Below threshold)

Dan Riehl is also confirming the ABC News report from the ground of 2 million in attendance. But the headline of the official ABC News story still reads, "Thousands March to US Capitol to Protest Spending." An accidental oversight? I doubt it.

Steven Green is reporting that the "official" estimate is 1.5 million.

This means that the Sept. 12 Tea Party may have officially set a new record for most-attended gathering in Washington DC -- even bigger than the Obama Inauguration this past January and significantly larger than the much-ballyhooed "Million Man March" fourteen years ago. But don't expect the New York Times to bother framing the protest using those numbers.

One more thing -- remember how liberals compared the April 15 Tea Party numbers to the turnout at various major left-wing rallies during the last eight years and then declared them to be "failures"? Compare today's attendance in DC with the Feb. 15, 2003 anti-war protest in New York (part of the largest worldwide anti-war protest ever held), and the October 26, 2002 anti-war protest in Washington, DC, which was touted as being the largest anti-war protest held in DC since the Vietnam era. Guess which side comes up short?

Of course I'm not holding my breath waiting for the same kid of wall-to-wall news coverage that was given to the anti-war movement.

I checked earlier and CNN a... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I checked earlier and CNN and MSNBC have zip for coverage. CNN was on site in Minneapolis instead.

Nothing to see here, just 1.5 million voters who don't like what the administration proposes.

CNN and MSNBC will probably cover it denouncing it as a klan rally.

So Crick are all thee AMERI... (Below threshold)
Michael:

So Crick are all thee AMERICANS racists?

CNN was there; we saw their... (Below threshold)
Jeff Medcalf:

CNN was there; we saw their van. There were a lot of people, and the organizers were saying the Park Police estimate was 1.5 million.

CNN was at the Tea Party in... (Below threshold)
jim m:

CNN was at the Tea Party in Chicago and we saw how that worked out.

I'm disappointed with Fox -... (Below threshold)
Tracy:

I'm disappointed with Fox - they to are only reporting 10's of thousands and then they cut over to Obama in MN. What people have forgetten are all the other Tea Parties that have taken place outside Washington. I helped man the 9/12 booth at our local Tea Party where the attendance was double what the 4th of July one was. Add all the local Tea Parties together, I bet you are well over 4 million.

The sad part is how ignoran... (Below threshold)
Indie:

The sad part is how ignorance seems to be almost celebrated by a great number of our citizens.

Republicans want to bury millions of uninsured Americans. The only thing missing at these rallies are the white hoods

400% increase in dea.th threats against the President since he was elected. 48% of republicans believe President Obama was not born in America.

Where were all the teabaggers in 2002 when Cheney to Treasury "deficits don't matter"

If these teabaggers are serious, they'd be burning their social security checks and medicare cards. Getting off our roads and highways, pulling their kids out of school; no VA, no public hospital care for them, nor community colleges. No military, nor fireman and certainly no police protection. If they are using any kind of goverenment funded benefits they should refuse them since they don't want government takeovers.

Meanwhile, the health insurance execs, shareholders & ceo's will continue to laugh all the way to the bank knowing they have so many dupes supporting them.

Health scare rally in Minne... (Below threshold)
xiphos:

Health scare rally in Minneapolis .....
obama, ellison & franken.
Birds of a feather.

Indie -Where do I ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indie -

Where do I start?

Cheney's comment had a point. Deficits in the short term, when they are not too large are not a problem. When debt is kept to a reasonable fraction of the GDP it can be accommodated. The problem today is that the enormous debt that Obama is creating are vastly larger and very likely unsupportable.

Your comment about social security ios not serious. People have paid their taxes and made their social security contributions. They are not wrong to take what has been promised to them.

Likewise I pay my taxes for the roads etc. I expect my taxes to be used for reasonable purposes and that is what people are protesting.

As far as health care goes I know of no veteran who would choose to go to the VA versus a private hospital. Furthermore, public hospitals in my area are universally the worst in quality of care.

People agree on government provision for the "Common Defense" . Go read the Constitution. Tea Party protesters believe in it and would gladly pay for the things that it says government should do.

As far as health care execs laughing heir way to the banks, I'll agree with you that the PhRMA execs are doing just that after hey cut their deal with Obama. In that deal they got everything they wanted and gave Obama essentially nothing. A promise for a percent discount off of future undefined expenses in return for eliminating competition and protecting their market? I'd take that deal in a second too.

The fools are the ones who think Obama is looking out for their interests.

To see Liberal talking poin... (Below threshold)
Staylor:

To see Liberal talking points typed out with no actual thought involved in the process please see post #11.
Apparently being against trillion dollar defecits is tantamount to anarchy. ANARCHY I Say!!! Now can we please ignore one of the largest protests in history and talk about Obama's healthcare rally, because we really havn't seen him enough on the TV recently and rumor has it there may be as much as a thousand people in attendance. All Praise to the Lightbringer.
Well this has been fun but I am afraid that I must go now and fullfill my Republican duty by burying some uninsured folk; I already have the hole dug and everything but those suckers are fast. Nevertheless I expect to catch at least three by evening.

As to this "not born in Ame... (Below threshold)
jim m:

As to this "not born in America" crap...

Many US citizens are born overseas every year. They are born to families overseas in the armed services, State Department as well as in business. These children are full citizens and everyone knows it.

The proper question would be to ask: "do you think Obama is a US citizen?"

They don't ask that because they want to make it look like people buy into this whole birther nonsense.

Obama was born to a US citizen and regardless of where he was born THAT makes him a citizen.

The last reputable poll I saw asking whether people thought Obama was born in the US reported 29% of Republicans believing that he was not. (again not addressing the citizenship issue)

By the same token the last poll I saw asking if Bush was in on 9/11 showed 35% of Democrats believing that he was. By any measure that makes Dems more wacko by greater than the margin of error.

Don't play along with their... (Below threshold)
JB:

Don't play along with their favorite tactic of changing the subject.

Bambi got pwned today. Deal with it. America doesn't want his crappy socialist agenda, no matter how you spin it.

As far as I am concerned, h... (Below threshold)
Eneils Bailey:

As far as I am concerned, he is a US citizen.
I don't care if he was born in the front room, I still don't like his lying ass.

Indie, what do you mean "ge... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Indie, what do you mean "getting off OUR roads"? They don't belong to you, pal.

"Republicans want to bury m... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Republicans want to bury millions of uninsured Americans. The only thing missing at these rallies are the white hoods"

Okay, Idiot..er....Indie, SHOW ME WHERE Republicans want to BURY MILLIONS. I call BULLSHIT pal!

White hoods? When all else fails THROW OUT THE RACE CARD!

Take your sniveling little ass down the fucking road and go back to DK. Maybe, if your a really good little Obamabot, Olbermann or Matthews will let you suck them off.

This is a great day and a g... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

This is a great day and a great movement of Americans who have woken up to the incompetence of this president. We as conservatives knew Obama didn't have experience but now most of the independents do also. 2010 is looking better all the time. ww

If these teabaggers(sic)... (Below threshold)
Scott Crawford:

If these teabaggers(sic) are serious, they'd be burning their social security checks and medicare cards. Getting off our roads and highways, pulling their kids out of school; no VA, no public hospital care for them, nor community colleges. No military, nor fireman and certainly no police protection. If they are using any kind of goverenment(sic) funded benefits they should refuse them since they don't want government takeovers.

Ah, yes, the old false choice ploy. The only alternative to statism is anarchy.

Useful Idiot.

Proposed Corollary to Godwi... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Proposed Corollary to Godwin's Law: as the amount of time a conservative is winning an argument increases, the probability that they will be labeled a racist approaches one.

Conservative: I am concerne... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Conservative: I am concerned about the health care proposals, single payer/socialized medicine systems have proven failures all over the world.

Liberal: YOU'RE A RACIST!

Conservative: Government spending is out of control. We cannot sustain this debt and need to pull back on the stimulus plan etc.

Liberal: YOU'RE A RACIST!

Conservative: All these 'czars' who are unaccountable and not being confirmed by congress subverts the checks and balances of the constitution.

Liberal: YOU'RE A RACIST!

Conservative: I have concerns over the radical views of many of these 'czars'.

Liberal: YOU'RE A RACIST!

Conservative: The housing crisis was created by inept political regulation.

Liberal: YOU'RE A RACIST!

Conservative: I think people like Michael Steele, Condoleeza Rice, and Clarence Thomas make significant contributions to the political discussion.

Liberal: They are sell-outs, uncle Tom's and house n@#$%&s.

Conservative: Excuse me but who exactly is the racist?

Eric - Awesome my ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Eric -

Awesome my friend. Your corollary is exactly right!

In the case of this post, G... (Below threshold)
Eric:

In the case of this post, Godwin's Law Conservative Edition reached full probability in 1 hour 35 minutes. Not bad on a Saturday afternoon.

Tell you what Indie, you qu... (Below threshold)

Tell you what Indie, you quit using the label
of tea bagger and I'll not disemvowel your posts.
Deal?

Maybe a better corollary wo... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Maybe a better corollary would be, the shorter the amount of time a conservative is labelled a racist, the higher the probability that the conservative is winning the argument.

Okay, just to be fair, I do... (Below threshold)
RicardoVerde:

Okay, just to be fair, I don't think there were 2 million there today, but there were probably some several tens of thousands more than Obama's January 20 ceremony. Media said that was a million, but I thought that number was high as well. In any event this represented a sizable show for small government. A great thing about the event is after it was over there was very little trash or destroyed property unlike a large event this past January.

I kind of like that. Maybe... (Below threshold)
Eric:

I kind of like that. Maybe I should add that to the Wikipedia entry of Godwin's Law?

ABC and CNN put it at 1.5 m... (Below threshold)
jim m:

ABC and CNN put it at 1.5 million earlier. They clearly do not have a desire to inflate the numbers so I will gladly defer to their estimates.

I think the first edition i... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I think the first edition is best, but by all means give yourself credit for it.

Here's a pretty fair treatm... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Here's a pretty fair treatment of today's protest in the MSM. The article estimates "Up to 2 Million"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1213056/Up-million-march-US-Capitol-protest-Obamas-spending-tea-party-demonstration.html

Of course it's reasonably fair which means it's from outside the US.

The congressman didn't even... (Below threshold)
Donna Cahill:

The congressman didn't even take a picture of Pennsylvania which was shut down!!

What scares me, is Indie's ... (Below threshold)
Ran:

What scares me, is Indie's allowed to go out in public with that brain.

I can imagine that David Ax... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I can imagine that David Axelrod is hunkered down in his office right now, going through his email lists. Probably wondering if he can astroturf a response with Obamabots next weekend.

Exit question: Will Jake Tapper ask Baghdad Bob Gibbs on Monday what the White House response is to the weekend rally in DC?

Yes, Indie has it wrong.But... (Below threshold)
Bill:

Yes, Indie has it wrong.But this is a matter of Logic more than emotion.Our govenrment wants to spend over a trillion dollars for healthcare for our citizens.Different experts have reported between 29-45 billion to do this.
Part of the last bailout was 18 billion for ACORN. Who wanted that? NationalGeographic is reporting that the failing national infrastructure will take 1.25 Trillion between now and 2030 to upgrade the system of roads, waterways, the electrical power grid, etc. to contemporary standards. We have given tax money for that for over 70 years. but instead we have received bike trails, Bureau of Land Management, Horse adoption programs and moneys redirected to Pork.Our government has engaged in this for years. This really isn't alib or conservative position. This is an accountability problem. 981 Billion for financial companies with no oversight.The question is when dowe start getting the government that we are paying for? how many diseases can be cured for that kind of money? how many roads could have been upgraded for that money? With so many people out of work, why do we have to worry about Prevailing wage (read union Labor)forGovernment jobs when many families get by on less.None of them are asking how can we save money.

"What scares me, is Indie's... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"What scares me, is Indie's allowed to go out in public with that brain."

I'm just concerned that he might get hurt or his lunch money might get stolen.

Hopefully his mom has written his address on the inside of his collar in case he gets himself lost. :P

Statism, they use the same ... (Below threshold)
sal:

Statism, they use the same tired arguments. Stop about Bush already he's gone your guy is a liar and a fraud, and the Constitution say's if you aren't born here you can't be President. Obama lie's about everything else why not where he was born. He ran away like the cowards all you socialist do. If it comes to a Revalution I will have to kill you fools gladly.

Bill,Privatize the... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Bill,

Privatize the lot of it.

http://www.chicagoskyway.org/

The Chicago Skyway was falling apart and nobody used it. Today it is used more than ever, it is in better shape and it's largely because it was privatized.

Now that doesn't always work. Chicago privatized the parking meters in what appears to be a big political payoff. The meter rates were jacked up to insane levels ($6/hr?) and now nobody parks on the streets, businesses are folding etc.

Done right privatization can be a huge benefit to the public. Done as political payoff (ie the Chicago/Obama way) it's a disaster.

Why did the Skyway privatization work? Because everyone thought that they were getting the better of the private consortium that took it over. Why did the parking deal not work? Because it was a back room deal that the city council never debated and didn't read.

Gee, perhaps there are some lessons to be learned for Congress in that.

I think the lib MSM is goin... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I think the lib MSM is going to have to rethink that "fringe group" idea of theirs, judging by the pictures from various parts of the country.

http://teapartyexpress.wordpress.com/

Of course I could be wrong, and that all of these are the SAME people, just BUSSED IN for the occasion. But I doubt it.

Hey Olbermann, Matthews, Cooper, Maddow - BEND OVER!

Jim M:You post an ... (Below threshold)
James H:

Jim M:

You post an accurate description if a reasonable conservative debates an unreasonable liberal. I woudl like to think that reasonability on both sides would go more like this:

Conservative: I am concerned about the health care proposals, single payer/socialized medicine systems have proven failures all over the world.

Liberal: However, the current market in the United States creates perverse incentives for insurers. At least one insurer is on the record giving bonuses to members in its claims department for finding any way whatsoever to deny claims. Additionally, the current system creates transaction costs that vastly inflate the true cost of medicine. A single payer system or a public-private hybrid system may provide superior results.

Conservative: Government spending is out of control. We cannot sustain this debt and need to pull back on the stimulus plan etc.

Liberal: However, deficit spending. though it seems outlandish as a percentage of GDP, may be the best way to overcome current economic woes by ensuring more liquidity is within the financial system.


Conservative: All these 'czars' who are unaccountable and not being confirmed by congress subverts the checks and balances of the constitution.

(That, I have no answer for. The growth of the EOP since Nixon's time and centralization of power in the White House is a concern).

Conservative: I have concerns over the radical views of many of these 'czars'.

Liberal: However, a number of these "czars" are also highly competent specialists in their own fields. Cass Sunstein, for example, despite his admittedly out-of-mainstream views on hunting, is nevertheless respected on both sides of the aisle, including among libertarians, for his thoughts on regulation.

Conservative: The housing crisis was created by inept political regulation.

Liberal: I disagree. The housing crisis stems from a number of factors, including the Fed's failure to increase interest rates during the Bush administration and the rolling back of Glass-Steagall regulations on the finance industry. Additionally, exotic financial instruments such as asset-backed securities and collateralized debt obligations were not sufficiently regulated. In particular, that lack of regulation led to a lack of transparency regarding the risk inherent in those securities. Furthermore, one could argue the ratings agencies need to be more thoroughly regulated in some way, as they were issueing high ratings to securities without properly assessing their risk.

Conservative: I think people like Michael Steele, Condoleeza Rice, and Clarence Thomas make significant contributions to the political discussion.

Liberal: Of course, I respect these individuals' rights to their opinions, even if I disagree with them.

I've been following politic... (Below threshold)

I've been following politics for way too many years. Nothing like THIS has EVER happened.

Yes, there were big Anti-War protests during the Vietnam War...but they were fueled (we now know) by a great many groups looking to simply agitate. AND they were composed almost exclusively by the easiest led group there is: 17-25 year olds.

THIS true grass-roots effort is led by...no one. and the people in it are mainly over 30.

NEVER happened before.

We ARE mad as hell...I suggest Washington take notice.

GarandFan,Just as ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

GarandFan,

Just as in Pauline Kael's (possibly apocryphal) quote that 'she "couldn't believe Nixon had won", since no one she knew had voted for him', the MSM will call it astroturfing etc because they don't know anyone who went.

None of their friends were there so it MUST have been a fringe group thing.

James H.Thanks. Y... (Below threshold)
jim m:

James H.

Thanks. Yours is the first rational response to anything I have seen here in a long time.

Reasoned debate would be most welcome. I hope you stay and contribute.

the Pols in D.C. KNOW the s... (Below threshold)

the Pols in D.C. KNOW the size of the crowd...they've lived in D.C. most of their lives

and they know the composition of the crowd is different from almost any other for the same reason

they KNOW the truth. what they do with that knowledge is up to them...for we ARE NOT going away!

"However, deficit spendi... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"However, deficit spending. though it seems outlandish as a percentage of GDP, may be the best way to overcome current economic woes by ensuring more liquidity is within the financial system."

Liquidity can be provided without the spending. While TARP was one way of providing liquidity it also artificially supported institutions that probably should have failed.

I tend to think that the "too big to fail" should probably mean "too big to continue to exist".

Liquidity can also be addressed through monetary policy. The problem that Obama has created with the bailouts, the budget and the stimulus is that he has necessitated monetary expansion to accommodate spending. If he had
eased the money supply he could have achieved the same ends without the debt. We would still have the threat of inflation, but we would be on better financial footing to deal with it.

It's not likely that we would be having the Chinese and Europeans talking about moving away from the Dollar as an international currency if Obama had not gone on his spending spree.

However, the current mar... (Below threshold)
jim m:

However, the current market in the United States creates perverse incentives for insurers. At least one insurer is on the record giving bonuses to members in its claims department for finding any way whatsoever to deny claims. Additionally, the current system creates transaction costs that vastly inflate the true cost of medicine. A single payer system or a public-private hybrid system may provide superior results.

I know of one insurer who, when questioned about approving bone marrow transplants for breast ca (back when we did that), confessed hat their policy was to refuse all applications and when the patient lawyered up they would settle.

Yes there are derangements in payment, but the health care delivery itself works better here than anywhere else in the world.

Costs could be brought down like they have been in Texas and Missouri through tort reform. Eliminating the state by state pooling restrictions could open up competition and dramatically reduce cost without ANY expenditure what-so-ever.

The problem with any governmental program is that there has yet to be an example in any nation of a government program that works as well as what we have here today. We get better results even with the uninsured factored in. We also have examples of government programs, such as Amtrak, that have driven private industry out of business. Reading HR3200 it is clear that NO private insurance plans currently meet the criteria the government is setting to continue to exist as a private plan. The stated goal by many congressmen is to put private insurance out of business.

The fact is that our system works. It works better than any other. Yet we believe it can be better. The answer is not to emulate failed models elsewhere but to take down the restrictions that government has put in place that make it more expensive.

Fibbs said today that Obeym... (Below threshold)
Deborah:

Fibbs said today that Obeyme knew nothing about the march in DC.
Can you hear us now Obama?
THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING
JOIN THE MOVEMENT

That the current health ins... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

That the current health insurance programs need to be fixed is not in dispute. The dispute centers around the fact that those in the current administration are not interested in "fixing anything". Every one of them is on record as favoring only one method of health care and bringing an end to private health insurance. The lies and falsehoods are in their statements that 'fixing health care' will not add anything to the deficit. "The rich" and "the evil insurance companies" and "eliminating waste and fraud" will pay for everything is a sham. If Barry is serious, he'd spend the next 6 months rooting out fraud and waste and SHOW US THE MONEY to prove he's correct. He'd have no problem passing legislation then. But this is the same guy who wanted 'honest debate' while screaming for legislation to be passed before the August recess. And then he has the balls to smile and say "Trust me".

Obama knew nothing about th... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Obama knew nothing about the march today? I'll believe it. The lives of he people he rules over are of no moment to him.

"Fibbs said today that Obey... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Fibbs said today that Obeyme knew nothing about the march in DC."

Yeah, I'm sure Axelrod just failed to mention it to him. If Baghdad Bobby Gibbs said it was raining, I'd go look outside. Axelrod, Immanuel, et al were hoping that only a small group would show up today. Just to be on the safe side, they figured they'd get Barry out of town. Let's see them play this down now. Even the MSM knows 'fringe group' isn't going to play anymore.

Wow! Hardly anyone showed u... (Below threshold)
Barak Hussein Obama:

Wow! Hardly anyone showed up. I see nothing,nothing.

"Wow! Hardly anyone showed ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"Wow! Hardly anyone showed up. I see nothing,nothing. "

They were there 9 hours ago Barry. They've all gone home now.

Don't worry about it. Harry Reid will tell you about all the "Evil mongers" later.

We are experiencing the dea... (Below threshold)
Deke:

We are experiencing the death gasp of the American system. We'll all get mad, but tomorrow is Sunday and we'll all be back at the circus, in front of our big screen t.v's watching the gladiatoial games. Politicians understand this and bank on our lack of interest and desire for everything to be over in 60 minutes, just like our shows. Jamestown was founded in 1607 and the American Revolution did not happen until the DoC was written in 1776 we did not gain independence until the 1790's that's almost 200 years ppl fought for and built up their anger. In today's society we have a window of about 6 months before we become bored with any political movement.

We are sheeple and like the plebian class of the Roman Empire are too tied up in our own concerns to give more than a passing thought to the future of our country. Obama and his cronies are just a first step in the eventual downfall of the American system, it's sad, really, really sad, that the greatest group of men in world history, all 53 of em, are not around to see their great experiment fail.

The one silver lining is that I will probably not be around to see the total colapse, but you can bet your bottom dollar that it will happen. There are just too many riding and not enough pushing, or willing to leave their comfort zone to help.

I pray I'm proven wrong, but unfort., don't think I will be.

Deke...to paraphrase Monty ... (Below threshold)

Deke...to paraphrase Monty Python:
We're not dead yet!

and I guarantee that a lot of us who appreciate and respect the Constitution, especially that pesky 2nd Amendment, will NOT go quietly!

Jim M:I'm rational... (Below threshold)
James H:

Jim M:

I'm rational and reasonable. Doesn't mean I'm nice. I've been around here for a while.

But let's take a look at a few things:

Yes there are derangements in payment, but the health care delivery itself works better here than anywhere else in the world.

I can neither agree nor disagree with that assessment. But as a tentative matter, I'm going to disagree slightly. As I said above, one of our biggest problems here is the transaction costs. Not just medimal insurance, but also the number of nurses and aides a medical practice keeps on staff to handle insurance-company paperwork and the armies of bureaucrats employed by the insurers to negotiate rates, review claims, etc., etc.


Costs could be brought down like they have been in Texas and Missouri through tort reform. Eliminating the state by state pooling restrictions could open up competition and dramatically reduce cost without ANY expenditure what-so-ever.

You're playing word games here. No expenditures? Yes. But insurers would be incentivized to base their policies in states that have the loosest restrictions on heatlhcare and the most favorable courtroom environment for insurers. Much like many of this country's corporations set up headquarters in Delaware.

Additionally, I fundamentally believe states should be free to regulate insurers as they see fit. Yes, it can create paperwork headaches for insurers, but it also gives citizens of a state greater say in their own marketplaces.

Tort reform is difficult to calibrate correctly. On the most fundamental level, I would simply encourage doctors and hospital personnel simply to not be assholes when something goes wrong.

The classic method for reforming torts is to cap noneconomic damages. But if you cap noneconomic damages, particularly for complicated cases like medical malpractice, you also slam shut the courtroom door to lower-income individuals whose insignificant economic damages would disincentivize plaintiff's attorneys from taking their cases on a contingency basis.

The problem with any governmental program is that there has yet to be an example in any nation of a government program that works as well as what we have here today. We get better results even with the uninsured factored in. We also have examples of government programs, such as Amtrak, that have driven private industry out of business. Reading HR3200 it is clear that NO private insurance plans currently meet the criteria the government is setting to continue to exist as a private plan. The stated goal by many congressmen is to put private insurance out of business.

Funny. Nearly every country leaps to the defense of its own healthcare system. As I understand, even the Brits, who often malign their NHS, have groused quite loudly that Americans shouldn't criticize NHS because it works quite well, thank you very much.

FWIW, I would prefer to leave things to the states, but I'm not sure that's realistic. If we're going to go national, here's my idea FWIW:

Every American man, woman and child, would be automatically enrolled in a national health-care plan financed by a combination of payroll deductions and consumption taxes. This would not be a comprehensive national plan. Rather, it would be a bare-bones plan with a minimum of benefits designed to provide all individuals with a basic level of guaranteed health care.

What would be that basic level? I have no idea. Sometimes, I think it should be a national HDHP, and at other times, I think it shoudl be a "basics" plan that covers routine medical coverage.

And as far as "death panels" and whatnot, it wouldn't be a matter of "killing granny." Rather, this national plan would provide only basic care. If Granny needs more than that basic care to save her life, this national plan would not cover it.

What if you want more than that basic level of care? Fine. Open your wallet and find an insurer that will cover you.

James H, Is this pla... (Below threshold)

James H,
Is this plan of yours mandatory? If every man,
woman, and child is enrolled, who is going to pick up the tab for the homeless, the very poor,
and the ones who do not want insurance.
How do you plan on enforcing this enrollment?

one of our biggest probl... (Below threshold)
jim m:

one of our biggest problems here is the transaction costs. Not just medimal insurance, but also the number of nurses and aides a medical practice keeps on staff to handle insurance-company paperwork and the armies of bureaucrats employed by the insurers to negotiate rates, review claims, etc., etc.

Yes there are people who are employed to deal with insurance. They are not nurses. There are not armies of people dedicated to this activity. You show immense ignorance about how things work in health care. Stop reading the Dem talking points and get yourself educated.


On the most fundamental level, I would simply encourage doctors and hospital personnel simply to not be assholes when something goes wrong.

Screw you. The focus of tort reform is to rationalize the cost of jury verdicts and trial lawyer fees which are out of control. In Illinois we are seeing doctors flee the state and quit practice for these very reasons.

It isn't that health care workers are the enemy. Yes we are human and make mistakes, but I do not know of anyone who acts in the way you suggest.

if you cap noneconomic damages, particularly for complicated cases like medical malpractice, you also slam shut the courtroom door to lower-income individuals whose insignificant economic damages would disincentivize plaintiff's attorneys from taking their cases on a contingency basis.

So Health care workers are "assholes" and plaintiffs attorneys are unable to take a contingency fee on non-economic damages if they are capped at a quarter million dollars as they are in Texas? My heart bleeds for them almost as much as it does for your ignorance.

even the Brits, who often malign their NHS, have groused quite loudly that Americans shouldn't criticize NHS because it works quite well, thank you very much.

Somehow I have missed the grousing regardless of how loud it is. I HAVE heard British Politicians complain markedly about the terrible state of heir health care and warn against going the same route. In particular Daniel Hannon has made a number of such statements.

What would be that basic level? I have no idea.

That last statement is about as accurate as you get when you assess what you understand about health care.

You say that you would let the states do it, but Oregon and Massachusetts have already tried and their systems are already deemed failures.

Oregon will pay for assisted suicide but not chemotherapy. The MA plan is going deeply into debt and is clearly unsustainable.

The point of opening up state markets is that 1) laws prohibit plans from pooling people across state lines which means risk cannot be dispersed over larger populations. 2) it means that the number of plans available is dramatically reduced. Eliminating these restrictions would open up potentially hundreds of insurance plans across the country.

Texas and Missouri have tried tort reform and they have seen costs for medical care go down. Doctors are no longer fleeing their states. Capping non-economic damages is not a killer for poor people who have been wronged. It IS a problem for attorneys who want to get rich off of other people's misfortunes.

We have not even touched on the fact that health care is nearly 18% of the economy and it is a growing part. Contrary to the Dems depiction it is NOT a parasite on the economy but it actually contributes significantly to GDP. We do more innovation in drugs, devices and techniques that the rest of the world put together.

Obama and the Dems want to limit the growth in health care. What they really are saying is that they want to stop 1/6th of the economy from EVER growing again. What they are saying is that they want to eliminate much of the research and innovation that will provide future cures for disease.

You are saying that something should be done but you have shown that you have little understanding of the issue and even less understanding of the damage that will be done by what Obama proposes.

James H - What you fail to ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

James H - What you fail to realize is that Obama's plan will crowd out ALL private insurers. It is meant to put them out of business and it is designed so that no current plans meet the criteria for future member enrollment.

There isn't going to be any company that will still be in business to offer you extended coverage that you are proposing.

The notion that because you say that other nations don't like us criticizing their nationalized systems misses the point that their systems suck.

We lead the world in cancer survival. We have a system that even with a large number of uninsured manages to treat a larger proportion of the population than the socialized systems.

Our system may be flawed but it does a better job already than any other system.

Can we make it better? Probably. But not by having government take it over or get in the way.

This is a groundswell of pa... (Below threshold)
Flu-Bird:

This is a groundswell of patriots opposing obama and his big intrusive big brother goverment and OBAMACARE as well as CAP & TRADE

Yes there are peop... (Below threshold)
James H:
Yes there are people who are employed to deal with insurance. They are not nurses. There are not armies of people dedicated to this activity. You show immense ignorance about how things work in health care. Stop reading the Dem talking points and get yourself educated.

I've been educating myself for quite sometime, Jim. I'm not part of the system, but I've spent some time trying to understand it. Again and again, I've seen accounts of physicians frustrated at the staffers they must hire to handle insurance company paperwork. I see people dealing with reams of claims forms for even the simplest claims. Not to mention the diverse payment amounts each insurer negotiates with medical practices ... keeping track of this is not an easy task.

Screw you. The focus of tort reform is to rationalize the cost of jury verdicts and trial lawyer fees which are out of control. In Illinois we are seeing doctors flee the state and quit practice for these very reasons.

I don't think I made myself clear here. By "not be assholes," I refer to one of the standard ass-covering procedure to avoid lawsuits, in which physicians are instructed not to undertake any action that might be construed as an admission of culpability. The problem with such policies is that they inevitably encourage people to litigate. I've read about these cases before, and I've read of hospitals that take less adversarial stances than the standard ass-covering, and they find that fewer people want to sue.

So Health care workers are "assholes" and plaintiffs attorneys are unable to take a contingency fee on non-economic damages if they are capped at a quarter million dollars as they are in Texas? My heart bleeds for them almost as much as it does for your ignorance.

Well, if noneconomic damages are capped at $250,000, then an attorney's max fee on a one-third contingency is about $81,000. When you factor in the fees for expert witnesses and the fact that most cases settle for far below the maximum recoverable figure, then it does indeed become a problem. An attorney may not be able to afford to take on a case where likely recovery is less than $100,000.

You say that you would let the states do it, but Oregon and Massachusetts have already tried and their systems are already deemed failures.

Oregon will pay for assisted suicide but not chemotherapy. The MA plan is going deeply into debt and is clearly unsustainable.

I prefer to let states handle such things individually because at heart I prefer the federal form of government. Let as much power and responsibility as possible (and as wise) devolve to the states. However, it looks like that will be impractical politically.

The point of opening up state markets is that 1) laws prohibit plans from pooling people across state lines which means risk cannot be dispersed over larger populations. 2) it means that the number of plans available is dramatically reduced. Eliminating these restrictions would open up potentially hundreds of insurance plans across the country.

On the one hand, you can pool risk across state lines. On the other hand, you effectively remove states' ability to set coverage minimums within their borders. Is this a good trade-off?

Texas and Missouri have tried tort reform and they have seen costs for medical care go down. Doctors are no longer fleeing their states. Capping non-economic damages is not a killer for poor people who have been wronged. It IS a problem for attorneys who want to get rich off of other people's misfortunes.

Not every attorney sits in his office twirling a moustache and pondering how he can "get rich off of other people's misfortunes." Instead, I'm looking straight up at the costs of litigation. Capping non-economic damages may not be a killer, but it is a risk. And occasinonally, even those who advocate capped damages come to regret it.

We have not even touched on the fact that health care is nearly 18% of the economy and it is a growing part. Contrary to the Dems depiction it is NOT a parasite on the economy but it actually contributes significantly to GDP. We do more innovation in drugs, devices and techniques that the rest of the world put together.

Did I allege the health-care industry is a parasite? No. From the start, I've said there is a strong problem with incentives within the health-care system. There is also an issue with individuals not receiving the care they need. I would like to see these problems remedied. I am mostly agnostic about whether the solution comes from the private sector or the public sector. I just want a solution that works.

One final note -- insurers,... (Below threshold)
James H:

One final note -- insurers, as I understand it, do provide a form of "expanded" coverage for individuals on Medicare ... the so-called "medigap" insurance.

40,000 to 60,000. tops. Two... (Below threshold)
Rolfe:

40,000 to 60,000. tops. Two million was an outrageous Malkin lie. Britain's Daily Mail wrote an article the day before the rally saying "up to two million". Turned out to be off by at least 1.9 million! This was the basis for Michelle Malkin's lie.

Well, "dozens", then, Rolfe... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Well, "dozens", then, Rolfe. Does that suit you better? It was so small the White House wasn't even aware of it, if I read the press release right.

Seems to me there were lots of dozens there, but I'm probably lying, huh?

Are you fired up?

Rolfe -- 40,000 to 60,000 i... (Below threshold)
James H:

Rolfe -- 40,000 to 60,000 is still a very, very impressive showing. In my book, the "Tea Party" movement has gone from "a few Republcian extremists" to "strong political force."

#54 Deke I hear your anguis... (Below threshold)
Deborah:

#54 Deke I hear your anguish and have felt the hopelessness of trying to take our country back from the corportocracy and elitist bankers. Yesterdays march on DC gives me more hope than I have had in years.
For everyone that was there yesterday I know there are 20 or more of us who couldn't afford to go but wanted to.
We will protect our freedoms and our constitutional rights to the death.
Like you I probably won't be around to see my children and grandchildren live in freedom and prosperity but I plan to go to my death fighting for their freedom.
Our work is just beginning but we will prevail.
JOIN THE MOVEMENT
Protect the internet at all costs, protect and enforce our 2nd amendment rights.
Never give up.

This is how I see Obama whe... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

This is how I see Obama when it comes to him pleading for all of us to believe him when he talks about his health care plan:
"Hey little girl, want some candy? I have some in the back seat of my car".
I don't believe a word he sputters. He is a liar, he has no morals, he has no conscience, and he has no regards for anyone other than himself. He would sell his mother for a vote (didn't he sell is grandmother for a few votes?). He is a criminal of the worst sort. If GWB associated with Rezko, Ayers, Pflager, Dorne, ACORN, Wright, etc. he would never have been elected, but Obama threw some money and promises at the MSM, and HOLY COW, he gets "elected". Bought is more like it.
My opinion and I state it proudly
Madalyn

Good morning, Indie.<... (Below threshold)

Good morning, Indie.

Show us pictorial evidence of huge numbers of people dying due to this so-called "lack of health care" in America. You and so many people are propagandizing farces as catastrophic horrors that demand drastic change. Yeah, simply change. Brilliant! Why are so many people unable to see see the difference between 'change' and 'improve'? The Constitution allows for improvement while guarding against tyranny. We the People have improved this nation while guarding against tyranny for over 200 years. We the People must forbid any faction seizing power in a whirlwind of manufactured crises. American freedom is at risk.

You've either been blinded by your compassion and guilt or you are complicit to sedition and treason.

Never again? Google we are 5 days from & click the first link.

Not improvement. CHANGE. Get it? Then wake up! If not, shuttie. You are failing to comprehend geopolitical worst case scenarios that could lead us to global tyranny.

No way there are 2M people ... (Below threshold)
Fact:

No way there are 2M people there. 75k, tops.

The crowd doesn't even reach 4th St.

I counted them all and ther... (Below threshold)
914:

I counted them all and there are 2,084,231 not counting the ones out of sight using the john or trying to find where Barrys hiding.

I was there! Two million is... (Below threshold)
Danny Morales:

I was there! Two million is a conservative estimate of the total number. There were still people ARRIVING at 4PM when my party was getting back on our bus. It will be very difficult to know the total number there, but one of our bus drivers said that his headquarters told him over 4,660 charter buses were in the area.

THIS EVENT HAD NO AFFILIATION WITH ANY PARTY! Everyone I knew and spoke to had to pay their way and many, especially people like me who are in college, made pretty big personal sacrifices to be there! This was true grassroots at its finest!

America is WAKING UP! Praise God! THIS WAS VERY, VERY ENCOURAGING!

d.mo. MC
Representing C4L and YAL
from Columbia, SC

LOL. Actually the correct n... (Below threshold)

LOL. Actually the correct number is 60,000 to 70,000 people came. ABC News never said anything about 1.5 million or 2 million or even one million - http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/protest-crowd-size-estimate-falsely-attributed-abc-news/story?id=8558055

Who cares what All <... (Below threshold)
914:

Who cares what All Barak Channel says about anything? They are in bed with the "colored" one.

Thank You Gertrude!

Did you attend? Now they h... (Below threshold)
congressive Author Profile Page:

Did you attend? Now they have your photo. Were you one of the 30,000 who signed up online? Now they have even more. Did you see the detention camps Mormon Glenn Beck spoke of? They'll hold 60 to 70 thousand easy.

Next.

Why is that 2 million numbe... (Below threshold)
Jonathan:

Why is that 2 million number still up there? Everyone knows by now that it was made up. There were 60-70,000, tops.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/size-matters-so-do-lies.html

Would it be racist to wonde... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Would it be racist to wonder which was better attended, this, or the Million Man March?

What am I saying. I don't support the President, therefore everything I do must be racist!

Washington DC Teabagger Par... (Below threshold)
Trust us, yeah, that's the ticket!:

Washington DC Teabagger Party
consensus says: 75,000 attendees, tops.
eh, 75,000 or 2,000,000, what's the difference?

New slogan: "Trrruuussst us, yeah, that's the ticket!

(with judgment like that, I'd be afraid of the government too)

I've talked to people at wo... (Below threshold)
Joseph:

I've talked to people at work who don't even know this happened!!


The major news channels (all but Fox) suppressed this story!!

I have done my own study, a... (Below threshold)

I have done my own study, albeit revised, base on a devised stationary methodology and calculation which you can find here:

http://deathbymedia.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/912-washington-dc-tea-party-rally-crowd-estimation/

It's backed by visual evidence (pictures and clips) all available in the same entry, plus determining the boundaries of the rally and calculation of the final tally derived from the density of the crowd at each given block. My latest calculus puts the figures around 120k up to 135k.




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