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Propriety

I was never accused of having a grand sense of manners or proprieties or protocols, but a few cases in the past few weeks have been bugging me on those grounds.

First up, Congressman Joe Wilson's outburst during Obama's infomercial before Congress. Wilson apologized to Obama, refused to apologize to the House, and said he considered the matter closed.

To my perspective, he was wrong on both counts.

First up, he should not have had to apologize to Obama. It's become clear that Obama's claim at that point was disingenuous, at best -- while the bill in question does exclude illegal aliens from coverage, but Democrats had stripped out the enforcement language, making the law toothless. So, while calling Obama a liar was intemerate, it was not inaccurate -- and "truth is an absolute defense."

On the other hand, Wilson did insult the propriety of the House of Representatives. (Please, don't laugh too much -- at one point that actually meant something, and it'd be nice if it did again.) Obama was there as a guest of the Congress, both Houses were in attendance, and it was rude of him to interrupt Obama (who was calling people like Wilson liars at the time) in such a manner.

Ideally, Wilson should have apologized to both Obama and the House for the manner of his remarks, while reasserting the accuracy of them.

(For bonus points, he should have made them together, in a public statement, couched in the liberals' weasel-worded fashion of "if anyone was offended" non-apology.)

On the other hand, we have the ACORN mess and those fine young folks who caught ACORN employee after ACORN employee on tape giving them advice on how to set up a criminal enterprise. They have been criticized for one of the tapes, where an ACORN employee boasted of having killed her husband. Apparently reporting that without verifying it one way or another is considered bad form.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

While not specifically enshrined in law, it's a long-standing principle of American jurisprudence that if a private individual has evidence that a crime has been committed, they ought to report it to the police. The young filmmakers had someone on tape confessing to first-degree murder and boasting of getting away with it. They not only had no duty to verify that, but no right -- the records that would do so are mostly confidential.

No, the right thing to do was precisely what they did -- give the info to the police, and let them figure it out. And they had no obligation to remove it from the video before releasing the whole thing -- that ACORN would employ someone who would boast of such a thing, true or not, speaks volumes about their hiring standards.

Then again, I'm hardly Miss Manners. But every now and then, I get overwhelmed by what I consider "common sense."


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Comments (40)

First up, he shoul... (Below threshold)
Sabba Hillel:
First up, he should not have had to apologize to Obama. It's become clear that Obama's claim at that point was disingenuous, at best -- while the bill in question does exclude illegal aliens from coverage, but Democrats had stripped out the enforcement language, making the law toothless. So, while calling Obama a liar was intemerate, it was not inaccurate -- and "truth is an absolute defense."
According to the latest reports (even from the Obama owned print media), the president was technically accurate because he intends to force through "immigration reform" granting "amnesty" to all illegal aliens. Thus, instead of granting free health care to all "illegal" aliens, he will convert them to "legal immigrants" with a stroke of the pen. Once he has done that, they will of course become fully eligible for all health care entitlements in whatever bill actually passes.

Since his "immigration reform" boondoggle has not yet been forced through Congress, he can claim that they are not covered (yet).

Congrats to Obama, he has f... (Below threshold)
Mycroft:

Congrats to Obama, he has finally reached the big time: "Dumber then Clinton, bigger crook then Nixon, making him the worst president of all time, in multiple catagories."

Dang, that should be "Dumbe... (Below threshold)
Mycroft:

Dang, that should be "Dumber then Carter".

Dang, that should ... (Below threshold)
Dang, that should be "Dumber then Carter".

3. Posted by Mycroft

To be factually errorless, why not just say "as dumb as Carter" and "a bigger liar than Clinton"? (and be sure to shake your finger while you're saying it)

Silly post. Close the book... (Below threshold)
Oldflyer:

Silly post. Close the book on this little farce.

Congress cheapened it's own... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Congress cheapened it's own gravitas by granting a joint session for Obama to take pot shots at his opposition on government managed health care. That was the impropriety.

Dang, that should be "Dumbe... (Below threshold)
Mycroft:

Dang, that should be "Dumber then Carter".
3. Posted by Mycroft

To be factually errorless, why not just say "as dumb as Carter" and "a bigger liar than Clinton"? (and be sure to shake your finger while you're saying it)

4. Posted by Rovin | September 21, 2009 10:13 AM | Score: 1 (1 votes cast)

Ok, I can live with that:

"Dumber then Carter, bigger liar then Clinton, and bigger crook then Nixon."

Yes, I like that.

Don't you think that both s... (Below threshold)
Steve:

Don't you think that both sides should remain quiet and maintain decorum rather than have one side allowed to give raucous standing ovations every few minutes but the other side isn't even allowed to point out the truth? Shouldn't all the Democrats be apologizing to the Republicans for their behavior as a group?

'Silly post. Close the book... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

'Silly post. Close the book on this little farce."

Translation: I got nuthin. Time to MoveOn.

Obama should apologize to a... (Below threshold)
914:

Obama should apologize to all of us for being the worst President ever.

Can all the Dems now apolog... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Can all the Dems now apologize for the Boo they gave the President Bush during The State of The Union.

"It's become clear that ... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"It's become clear that Obama's claim at that point was disingenuous"

Naw, Wilson lied, and so are you for suggesting otherwise.

It's just become commonplace for Republicans to lie, and they think if they keep repeating the lie long enough that enough people will believe the lie and the truth doesn't matter.

Vic

Your a lie VIC... (Below threshold)
914:

Your a lie VIC

When you're fighting for th... (Below threshold)
Pat:

When you're fighting for the survival of your government as a democratic republic, you learn in the Constitution that it is not only your right, but your RESPONBILIBIY to challenge those attacking it.

Joe Wilson used words. Obama and his Dem congress are lucky that it's been words thus far and not actions. Other regimes have tried this. It was up to the people to teach them.

VIC is still full of shit. ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

VIC is still full of shit. And that's as much effort his response warrants.

Hey VIC!Let's have a... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Hey VIC!
Let's have a discussion on the meaning of "is". That should be a laugh riot!

I can make a very long list... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I can make a very long list of Obama's lies to date but to Vic, Obama is still the messiah. ww

Hey Vic! How long before B... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Hey Vic! How long before Barry FIRES (not 'reassigns') TWO government employees, one inside the White House, for using their offices to promote a PARTISAN agenda?

Or was that NEA conference call okay because "they were still learning the language"?

vic - "It's just become... (Below threshold)
Marc:

vic - "It's just become commonplace for Republicans to lie, and they think if they keep repeating the lie long enough that enough people will believe the lie and the truth doesn't matter."

Do you mean like obama repeatedly saying there were 46 million uninsured thru the months ofr July and August then say before Congress there were only 30 million.

vic, didn't obama make himself a liar with exactly zero outside help?

According to VIC, THE ONE d... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

According to VIC, THE ONE does not "lie". Most probably because THE CHOSEN ONE speaks with "nuance". Anyone who disagrees is only "quibbling" about words, because as THE OBAMASSIAH has said, "Words have meaning".

Whats more amazing is the f... (Below threshold)
Dennis D:

Whats more amazing is the fact that Wilson was reprimanded at the insistence of the Congressional Black Caucus who voted unanimously to scold Wilson. Just a week later the same Black Caucus voted UNANIMOUSLY against ending ACORN funding. I guess the images of 13 yr old Salvadoran sex slaves didn't outrage them.

Here's the <a href="http://... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

Here's the Fact check:

Obama was correct when he said his plan wouldn't insure illegal immigrants; the House bill expressly forbids giving subsidies to those who are in the country illegally. Conservative critics complain that the bill lacks an enforcement mechanism, but that hardly makes the president a liar.

No, it doesn't make Obama a liar. It makes Joe Wilson and his defenders liars instead. Th

Vic

Premature submit, sorry.</p... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

Premature submit, sorry.

I was saying the House bill specifically prohibits illegals from receiving benefits.

Vic

Oh Boy! Here we go again. ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Oh Boy! Here we go again. "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?".

So people here ILLEGALLY, using FORGED DOCUMENTS to obtain work; will "magically" respect the law and not apply for medical coverage EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T HAVE TO PROVE CITIZENSHIP?;

Bullshit Vic! And you damned well know it. A law with NO PENALTY has no reason to be followed. And your butt buddy Obama, alleged lawyer, damned well knows it.

And HEY! How's that Hispanic Caucus working out for Barry right at the moment, now that ENFORCEMENT LANGUAGE HAS SUDDENLY BE INCLUDED?
They don't appear to be too happy at the moment.

Let's move on now and discuss the what the meaning of "IS" is.

Does Obama LIE or is he "mi... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Does Obama LIE or is he "misinformed"? Or just flat doesn't know what the hell he's talking about (as if it weren't the first time).

FACT CHECK: Coverage requirement enforced with tax

By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer - 33 mins ago

WASHINGTON - Memo to President Barack Obama: It's a tax. Obama insisted this weekend on national television that requiring people to carry health insurance -- and fining them if they don't -- isn't the same thing as a tax increase. But the language of Democratic bills to revamp the nation's health care system doesn't quibble. Both the House bill and the Senate Finance Committee proposal clearly state that the fines would be a tax.

... It wouldn't be the first asterisk added to Obama's campaign pledge on taxes. Earlier this year, he signed a tobacco tax increase to pay for children's health insurance. Even that can be read as a violation of his expansive campaign promise.

"I can make a firm pledge," he said in Dover, N.H., on Sept. 12, 2008. "Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes."

He repeatedly promised "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime."

Seems Barry is going to have a lot of asterisks added in the future.

You're up VIC.

VICYou are arguing... (Below threshold)
JustRuss:

VIC

You are arguing semantics again, just like the rest of your ilk.

Joe Wilson did not lie, he simply summed up his feelings in two words in a fit of outrage. A simple message that resonated through conservative and liberal alike (as demonstrated by the dems adding enforcement language to the bill).

Obama did not lie, he did not tell the whole truth but he did not lie. I have to give you that point. However lies of omission are starting to add up don't you think?

As for "tell the lie long enough"... HELLO? Do you not see the President doing just that? Tell the lie enough and people will start to believe it! I cannot understand how you don't see this! He has been caught in actual lie after actual lie, on video tape in many cases, and yet nobody will press him on it or, indeed even question it!

The lefties have brainwashed themselves, they are now more dangerous than any right wing religious nut ever was!

Jay, some of us liberals fe... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

Jay, some of us liberals feel that Joe Wilson took back his appology after Obama accepted it. Sometime within 24 hrs of appologizing Joe Wilson told the media he was told to appologize.

Vic, there's a cliche' that... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Vic, there's a cliche' that liberals seem to think all problems go away by passing a law. This is a perfect example.

Yes, the bill forbids illegal aliens from getting benefits. BUT there's no enforcement provision -- in fact, it had been specifically removed from the bill.

Here's a little experiment, Vic -- let's imagine that the speed limit on the highway is reduced to 35 MPH, BUT the police are forbidden from pulling people for speeding. How fast would people drive on the highway?

Here's a hint: don't get in front of my SUV.

J.

"Jay, some of us liberals f... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Jay, some of us liberals feel that Joe Wilson took back his appology after Obama accepted it. Sometime within 24 hrs of appologizing Joe Wilson told the media he was told to appologize."

Source Tina? 'Cause that DID NOT HAPPEN.
Wilson apologized to the President. His refusal, right or wrong, to do the same to the House was based on having made amends to the person his comment was directed at.

"Obama did not lie"<... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"Obama did not lie"

That's right. He didn't. Joe Wilson did.

It's not semantics, it's facts. If Joe Wilson had yelled "no enforcement!" he'd have a point - instead Joe Wilson lied. You're using smeantics to argue that he wasn't lying.

Plain simple reality. Obama didn't lie and Joe Wilson did.

Let's say the speed limit is reduced to 35 miles per hour. Obama states in a speech that the speed limit is reduced to 35 miles per hour and Joe Wilson yells "You LIE" because Joe Wilson is upset that the number of Highway Patrol officers wasn't increased.

You can keep lying if you wish, just like Joe.

Hint: DOon't get in front of the facts, it makes you like like a dumb ass.

Vic

Hi VIC, glad you're back. ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Hi VIC, glad you're back. NOW RESPOND TO POST 25.

Otherwise, FUCK OFF! And have a great day!

"Let's say the speed limit ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Let's say the speed limit is reduced to 35 miles per hour. Obama states in a speech that the speed limit is reduced to 35 miles per hour and Joe Wilson yells "You LIE" because Joe Wilson is upset that the number of Highway Patrol officers wasn't increased."

I call BULLSHIT VIC!

The premise was that with the speed limit reduced to 35mph - "POLICE ARE FORBIDDEN FROM PULLING ANYONE OVER FOR SPEEDING" - NOTHING to do with the number of officers.

So answer the question. HOW FAST WOULD PEOPLE DRIVE?

Once again VIC, answer questions posted to you OR FUCK OFF and go back to DK / Huffpo.

@Vic: Shame on you. The tru... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

@Vic: Shame on you. The truth is whatever the neoconservative echo chamber says it is, and not what some piece of paper says it is, like House bill section 246, titled "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS," which states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

See? Just a piece of paper, like the birth announcements for Obama in the Hawaiian newspapers, which were apparently smuggled by time-traveling Democrats and planted in those papers.

Oh, GarandFan, can't you take it? Are you upset? Has someone made you unhappy? Take a breather, dear, and let the grownups talk.

AlstickupaWhat bir... (Below threshold)
914:

Alstickupa

What birth announcements for Obama in the Hawaiin papers?? He was born in Indochina so how'd they pull that off? Oh that's right. silly Me, He flew Mary Mopes and Dan Blather in to forge some document..

The birth announcement in t... (Below threshold)
astigafa:

The birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, dipshit.

Of course, that's just a fact, and, as we all know, reality itself is liberal, so you're safe to ignore it. You can ignore facts/truth/science all day everyday and be a pretty popular neocon.

Right, Jay? How's that Second Coming thing going? Jesus gonna come and snatch you up by your pony tail and whisk you to heaven any day now.

Oh, asti... still delusiona... (Below threshold)
Jay Tea:

Oh, asti... still delusional as ever.

As a mostly-bald agnostic, I'm not too concerned about Jesus grabbing my ponytail.

And I recall banning you a while ago, in compliance with your own request. I trust you'll consider that a warning to behave yourself in the future.

J.

"The birth announcement in ... (Below threshold)
914:

"The birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961, dipshit"

Care to link...? Asswipe.

Hmmmm.....VIC's balls get n... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Hmmmm.....VIC's balls get nailed to the wall and astigafa shows up. Coincidence?

Hey astigafa maybe you'd care to peruse the previous posts and answer the questions VIC will not respond to.

How's those numbers working for ya? Sure suck don't they. Barry spends all weekend on TV and gets NOTHING! No bounce, nothing! Then ACORN gets caught with it's hand in the cookie jar. Those "best and brightest" in the White House get caught on tape pushing ObamaCare propaganda on the taxpayer dime. Now Conyers is asking for an ACORN investigation. ACORN is going to be defunded. A field General is asking Barry to put up or shut up. Barry's getting no major coverage in his week at the UN. All of this has got to be so distracting. Next thing you know, they'll be saying the Cash for Clunkers was a flop. Oh, wait, yea it was a flop. So much for CPR for Government Motors and Chrysler. Ain't life a bitch when reality intrudes. But ya gotta love Your Guy on Letterman. Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. MILLIONS OF JOBS SAVED THANKS TO THE STIMULUS. That was the funniest line of the night.

Have a great day astigafa.

Oh, GarandFan, can't you ta... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Oh, GarandFan, can't you take it? Are you upset? Has someone made you unhappy? Take a breather, dear, and let the grownups talk.

Yeah, asswipe. Avoid answering the questions. Why not drop by the White House. Barry's not feeling to good with those poll numbers on health care. Maybe one of your superduper blow jobs will cheer him up.

Gee astigafa/VIC didn't com... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Gee astigafa/VIC didn't come back. I HOPE it was something I said.




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