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Compare And Contrast

Just a quick thought (yes, I'm still having serious tech issues at home):

Compare and contrast the Rush Limbaugh - NFL foofaraw with the Dixie Chicks incident of several years ago.

Both featured entertainers suffering backlash for their political beliefs.

Were both right? Both wrong? Or was there some distinction that makes their cases so different?


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Comments (133)

The difference was that the... (Below threshold)
FormerHostage:

The difference was that the Dixie Chicks were being held responsible for things they actually said. Rush's opponents were relying on fake quotes.

The Chicks were criticized ... (Below threshold)
hermie:

The Chicks were criticized for statements they actually made.

Rush was criticized for fake statements made up by members of the MSM.

The Chicks angered and insulted their fanbase, based on their own words, and thus they lost the people who went to their concerts and bought their albums.

Rush's fanbase know that the statements were NOT his, and continue to support and listen to him.

Anybody got a contact email... (Below threshold)

Anybody got a contact email for NBC that we can get people to write to and ask them if they really want one of their football hosts to be someone that calls a woman "a big mashed-up bag of meat with lipstick on it" when they're trying to attract more women to the game? Or maybe we should just write to the NFL?

Oh, and comment 1 pretty much ended the discussion JT tried to launch.

OT: <a href="http://frankwa... (Below threshold)
George Author Profile Page:
The ditzy chicks came under... (Below threshold)
recovering liberal democrat:

The ditzy chicks came under fire for what they did say. They were trying to use their "celebrity" to make a statement. Rush never said what he was accused of saying. And he was involved in an unrelated, supposedly secret, private transaction. I see a definite distinction here.

@3. Posted by Falze<p... (Below threshold)
Dr Carlo Lombardi:

@3. Posted by Falze

I don't have the email handy, but the number of their offices is 216-450-2000.-8:30am to 7pm eastern time.
If the NFL is really sincere about avoiding 'divisiveness',Olbermann should be removed from his NBC Sunday night post as he is much more visibly associated with the NFL product.

What, precisely happened to... (Below threshold)
James H:

What, precisely happened to the Dixie Chicks? I don't remember all the details.

Yes. The Dixie Chicks made ... (Below threshold)
jim x:

Yes. The Dixie Chicks made statements opposing a popular President, and received death threats.

Rush Limbaugh made statements which insulted a large portion of the American population, including specifically NFL players, and as a result couldn't be part of a group to buy a football team.

Yes the Dixie Chicks were b... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Yes the Dixie Chicks were beaten up in the media for what they said and they suffered economic losses as radio stations refused to play their music and people no longer bought their records.

On the other hand Rush was pilloried for things he didn't say (less offensive things that he did say were used to give cover to the lies). But the reality is that he was not punished for either the things he said or didn't say it was his political beliefs that he was punished for.

Now the NFL has the right to affiliate with whomever they choose and dumping Rush from the bid is understandable and they are free to do so. Unlike the libs who defended the Dixie Chicks I do not think that anyone should be forced to do business with Rush.

But like I said, this is not about free speech. It is about freedom of thought. Rush's comments (both real and false)were simply brought out to give cover to the fact that certain people do not believe that conservatives should be allowed to have a productive part in society.

Both Limbaugh and the Dixie... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

Both Limbaugh and the Dixie Chicks were intentionally provocative, and both paid a price for it.

The Dixie Chicks spoke out on their political beliefs and should be applauded for that.

Limbaugh unwittingly revealed his racist, bigoted beliefs and was rightly excoriated for it, both when he originally made those racist remarks about the NFL and the NFL players, and later when it became obvious that the racist was planning on exercising his racism through the ownership of an NFL team.

In both cases people spoke out against what they believed was wrong-headed statements made by Limbaugh and the DC - and as near as I can tell (I don't listen to Limbaugh and I don't give a damn about the Dixie Chicks) in both cases the parties in question accepted the criticism graciously.

Racist bigots have come to Limbaugh's defense, claiming he never made those racist remarks about the NFL teams and players. DC fans came to their defense as well, but again - I'm not aware of an organized deliberate attempt by fans of the DC to lie about what they said.

The DC were a small part of a growing movement that ran Bush out of town.

Limbaugh is part of a shrinking minority that is slowly being run out of town.

Vic

Victory is Ours, you are so... (Below threshold)
recovering liberal democrat:

Victory is Ours, you are so funny and predictable. You make my day. Keep it up. Please.

Vic, once again your upsurd... (Below threshold)
itismedavid:

Vic, once again your upsurdity is raised to new heights. If you think conservatism is shirnking please explain why Rush is still on the air and Imus (a liberal by most respects) was run out of a town for actual racist remarks.

No one denied the Dixie Chicks the OPPORTUNITY to continue to make music. For words they ACTUALLY DID say, they just sold less of it.

Rush was libeled with LIES that people (mostly liberals and race baitersa) believed anyway and denied the OPPRTUNITY to prosper. I hope he Cheketts group gets the Rams and then Rush sues the NFL.

If Rush were to make acutal racist statements and his radio show suffered because of it, then fair enough. That's what happened with his comments on McNabb.

Ya ha haa ha haa. Unrepenta... (Below threshold)
recovering liberal democrat:

Ya ha haa ha haa. Unrepentant Dem. You guys are killing me... Ah haa ha ha haa..

Dixie Chicks said something... (Below threshold)

Dixie Chicks said something they believed in and other people decided not to go to their concerts or buy their albums.

Rush never said what was attributed to him and people that were not involved in the transaction raised such a stink that the people involved in the transaction backed down.

The first one was the free market working, people deciding how to spend their money.

The second was lies and meddling in other people's business.

Rush made bigoted remarks a... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

Rush made bigoted remarks about NFL players and NFL players and the league administration acted on Limbaugh's actual remarks.

Yes, there were also some remarks attributed to Limbaugh that he claims are inaccurate, but once you know Limbaugh is a racist and bigot, as is evidenced by the remarks he made about NFL players, quibbling about just how stupid he is for making those remarks in public and just how often he exercised his stupidity in public is a waste of time.

Defending Limbaugh by stating he only made half of the racist, bigoted remarks that are attributed to him may strike the weak-minded as stunning debate, but it's pretty ridiculous actually.

Vic

I'm still waiting for VIC t... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

I'm still waiting for VIC to join me in denouncing the, "She's your typical white person" comment.

What about it VIC? How much more explicitly racist can a statement be? Where are you VIC?

Gawd....The Chicks... (Below threshold)
Hangtown Bob:

Gawd....

The Chicksy Dicks ......... I almost forgot about them.

"Rush made bigoted remarks ... (Below threshold)

"Rush made bigoted remarks about NFL players"

Um, no he didn't. Nice try, though.

The Chicks, like the curren... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

The Chicks, like the current President, went on foreign soil and apologized for America. Americans resented it and voted with their dollars, punishing the Chicks economically. It was a direct linear response. There was nothing dishonest on either side. Chicks spoke, fans left. No one interfered with their right to stage concerts (though many were cancelled due to lack of interest), no one cancelled their recording contracts, and they were free to make music.

The Rush episode is a criminal conspiracy, based on lies, to deny a person economic freedom. Not quite the same as turning off the radio, not buying Limbaugh's books, or disagreeing with his politics. I think the legal term for this is "tortuous interference" in the common law of torts, when a person intentionally damages the plaintiff's contractual or other business relationships.

Go get 'em Rush! Do the American thing. Sue the bastards.

Vic,chuckle, chuckle... (Below threshold)
recovering liberal democrat:

Vic,
chuckle, chuckle, chortle, you're delusional.

VIC,where are you VIC?... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

VIC,where are you VIC?

Surely you don't think that someone referring to someone else as, ...your typical white person" is anything less than a racist, bigot.

Still looking for your support in this VIC.

"Rush was libeled with L... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"Rush was libeled with LIES that people (mostly liberals and race baitersa) believed anyway and denied the OPPRTUNITY to prosper."

Really? You cna prove he would have made money and not lost it?

No, you can't. Not at this stage anyway.

And there is no dispute (on the part of adults anyway) that Limbaugh made the remarks about the NFL players that got him in hot water with the league and with the players who refused to work for a racist.

Limbaugh claimed that the NFL Players Association and its new Executive Director DeMaurice Smith made a scapegoat out of him to gain leverage in talks for a new Collective Bargaining Agreement.

"I don't know how many players know this, but Mr. Smith has let it be known that if he has to he'll bring the White House into this," Limbaugh said. "He'll bring the Congressional Black Caucus into this. So Obama's America is quite possibly going to include the National Football League, and pressure from Obama, the Congressional Black Caucus and other places might be brought to bear on the owners. I can't imagine that that's anything they want.

"It's designed to intimidate the owners, frighten the owners, and say 'We're running this league now, gang, not you."'

Yeah - Limbaugh wants the white bigots in the nation to believe that this is all just another instance of those blacks gettin' all uppity. He spent 15 minutes on his talkshow ranting about it, trying to inflame more hatred and bigotry towards black Americans.

Meet DeMaurice Smith.

Rush has once again intentionally displayed his racism by attacking Smith and labeling Smith as a target.

Why? He makes more money when he does.

He accepts the financial consequences of his bigotry. I'd love to see him sue, spend a fortune on the lawsuit, and then be publicly humiliated.

And that's precisely why he won't sue. He risks too much, and Limbaugh may be an ass but he's not dumb ass. He'll fan the flames of hatred and racism and reap the benefits in more readership and loyal fans instead.

Vic

Dixie Chicks did not lose t... (Below threshold)
VagaBond:

Dixie Chicks did not lose their ability or freedom to purchase a football team. Neither did Fergie.

"And there is no dispute (o... (Below threshold)

"And there is no dispute (on the part of adults anyway) that Limbaugh made the remarks"

Then surely you can reproduce them here instead of using the tired "everybody knows it" argument.

I always enjoy reading comm... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I always enjoy reading comments by VIC and SAUD. They obviously inhabit that same place Nancy Pelosi resides in.

Conservatism is dying? Then how do you explain Obama's FALLING approval numbers? Must be caused by Global Warming.

To all the commentors who s... (Below threshold)

To all the commentors who still beleive the made up quotes from Limbaugh ...

Get your brain out of the freezer and wake up ... you have been conned ...

There is no comparison between the Chicks and Rush ... the Chicks caught flack for what they actually said, Rush caught flack for something he NEVER said ...

Pure and simple lies about Rush ... you know it and yet still go on repeating those lies ...

You probably think the National Guard memo's are "fake but real" ...

WHY THE F*** IS THERE A BLA... (Below threshold)
JustRuss:

WHY THE F*** IS THERE A BLACK CAUCUS ANYWAY? That's Racism.

The time is past for allowing a person of color to trade on their Race rather than what they know or can do.

Commenting that a group of people, who happen to be black, and call themselves the black caucus; might be trying to place themselves in control of the NFL is not RACIST! It might be crazy but it is not RACIST!

You are not F***ing racist just because you identify the guy that stole your wallet and he happens to be black. You are not racist because you point at Jeremiah Wright and say "That guy hates America." You are not racist for recognizing that the Media was all aglow that Tony Dungy was the "First Black Coach to win the Superbowl"

In fact, pointing out that the man was Black IS RACISM!

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

By doing so you are saying that Black people are inherently inferior so it should be celebrated that this exceptional black man was able to achieve something. It actually diminishes the mans accomplishment based on his skill and management.

Likewise pointing out that the Media was rating a sub-par Quarterback higher than he deserved specifically because he was Black; is not racist! Its a F***ing observation on racism.

I don't need to repeat post #1 but I agree, Rush was smeared, the Chicks just lost fans.

twolaneflash came up with t... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

twolaneflash came up with the same difference that immediately came to mind for me. Limbaugh understands the philosophy that politics stops at the shore.

Wanna watch Vic and SAUD/JF... (Below threshold)

Wanna watch Vic and SAUD/JFO run like hell?

Ask 'em to quote the most offensive Limbaugh quotes, with time/date/location citations.

J.

Don't have time to read all... (Below threshold)

Don't have time to read all the comments above at this time...so excuse me for repeating what someone may have said...

TWO huge differences:
(1) The Dixie Chicks really DID say all those things, and the "quotes" from Rush were made up bullshit. (complication: the media didn't even ATTEMPT to verify the Rush "quotes")

(2) The FANS decided they didn't like the Dixie Chicks saying what they said OVERSEAS, and so the FANS reacted. In the NFL case it was the NFL itself that reacted...officially. The ranks of players and owners includes damn near EVERY conceivable type of criminal...and they refuse Rush based on BOGUS "quotes"

Pathetic on all accounts!

The "Crips" comment was in ... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

The "Crips" comment was in a January, 2007 radio show. Transcript is available on Limbaugh's web site.

The "street gangs" comment was... ESPN, 2003 I think. Rush had been an ESPN commentator for a month. He was fired from that gig as a result.

More quotes attributed to Limbaugh (I don't know the validity of these)

That's not all. Regarding the NAACP, Limbaugh said:

The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies.

[Quote Removed: See Editor's Note]

Recently, on life in "Obama's America":

The white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, "Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on."

And finally, in a league made up of predominately African-American athletes, how can you have an owner who says, "[Black people] are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?"

Feel free to dispute the quotes if you can.

Vic

The "Crips" comment was ... (Below threshold)

The "Crips" comment was in a January, 2007 radio show. Transcript is available on Limbaugh's web site.

Then provide it instead of just spewing what you read on ESPN, who also didn't link to the alleged transscript.

As Jay said, let's see the time/date and location of your quotes.

And BTW, learn how to hyperlink.

This will get more interest... (Below threshold)
jim m:

This will get more interesting than just he said/she said.

NFL Players Association Executive Director DeMaurice Smith served as counsel to Attorney General Eric Holder and was a member of Barack Obama's transition team.

The Wikipedia libel postings came from a high power NY law firm that has also posted questionable entries to Wikipedia entries for Karl Rove, Sean Hannity, James Dobson and Sara Palin from 2005 until earlier this year.

This has the appearance of serious conflict of interest, illegal interference and potential legal liability.

Oh, and for Vic's benefit: It is clear that black NFL athletes are not a monolithic block in their opinions. Many current and former players are very conservative and actually back him.

"Feel free to dispute the q... (Below threshold)

"Feel free to dispute the quotes if you can."

What quotes? After the first two, they're as good as fictional. You say he said them, but can't prove it. Considering your track record, why the hell would anyone give your word the slightest bit of credibility?

The gang remarks you actually kinda-sorta cite came out after NFL players were seen flashing gang signs and wearing gang colors. Sounds like accurate commentary to me.

You forgot the "black quarterback" bit, Vic -- but that was an indictment of the media and not the player.

Sheesh. Limbaugh should have just gone into dogfighting first. Then he wouldn't have had any problems passing the NFL's high moral standards.

J.

You can't pin Vic and SAUD ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

You can't pin Vic and SAUD down. They will blame Rush for the bogus quotes and when asked to back it up they will back up and start talking about his gang quotes and the McNabb BS.

Vic especially, is deeply dishonest in how he argues.

Peter - Limbaugh doesn't de... (Below threshold)
VIct:

Peter - Limbaugh doesn't deny either of the two remarks about the NFL. On his website he currently has a transcript where he attempts to put the "bloods and crips" remark into context.

Pretending he didn't say these things is about the weakest argument you can mount. Feel free to suggest he didn't mean what he said, but lying about what he said is really weak.

Since I can't hyperlink I guess you'll have to find those yourself.

Or feel free to link to Limbaugh saying he never said those remarks.

Note that J didn't say the NFL quotes about Limbaugh are false.

Here Limbaugh attempts to explain the "bloods and crips" comment that J, Peter and others want you to believe he never said:

"...but let me take the occasion of your call to explain the Bloods and Crips comment, because these guys who are now admitting, "Okay, maybe we can't source those quotes about Limbaugh and James Earl Ray and slavery, but he said Bloods and Crips! He said Bloods and Crips!"

They're trying to get anything else to continue the narrative here that I am some subhuman species with no rights to exist anywhere outside this radio studio and within these radio waves. I believe the comment's from 2007, and I believe the comments were made to a phone call, I had a phone call -- I think --

Limbaugh admits to the "bloods and crips" comment - why can't you guys? What kind of honest debate are you attempting by lying about this, seriously...

And the ESPN remarks are in the public record, but feel free to show where Limbaugh disputes that he made that remark and that the remark got him fired from ESPN.

You can't. It's true. What an amazingly immature argument to make, to deny that these two quotes ever happened.

Vic

Vic- the bloods and crips c... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Vic- the bloods and crips comments are not what most of us are talking about. I at least have said that several times. Why can't you admit the slavery and James earl Ray quotes are false and that there is the appearance of a coordinated smear?

Vic, nobody's denying the N... (Below threshold)

Vic, nobody's denying the NFL quotes. I know it makes your little fantasy world a happier place for you to pretend that everyone is, but it just ain't so.

Also, Vic, you specifically published statements you said you could not verify AFTER I challenged you to publish ones you could verify. I could ban you or delete your comment for that (and I am tempted), but I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself: all you have to do is say that you have no evidence to back them up and that Limbaugh, like every other person, is entitled to the presumption of innocence in the absence of any proof whatsoever, and you apologize for bringing them up.

It's called "character," Vic. Give it a try some time.

J.

"After the first two, th... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"After the first two, they're as good as fictional."

You admit the first two are accurate, thanks. And as I said above in comment 32 abut the other quotes:

More quotes attributed to Limbaugh (I don't know the validity of these)

"You say he said them, but can't prove it."

No, Is aid they are attributed to him and that I can't vouch for their validity.

NFL players decided they didn't want to work for Rush and that got him booted from the deal.

"To all the commentors who still beleive the made up quotes from Limbaugh ... Get your brain out of the freezer and wake up ... you have been conned "

That's the defense mounted by Limbaugh's army of dittoheads. They lie and say it never happened.

"Rush was criticized for fake statements made up by members of the MSM."

The lies get repeated over and over.

"Rush never said what he was accused of saying."

Amazing... apparently these wingnuts repeat a lie often enough and they'll believe you. Well, some will.

And so far J is the only one who admits that the NFL quotes are accurate. Why is that?

Vic

"Vic, nobody's denying the ... (Below threshold)

"Vic, nobody's denying the NFL quotes. I know it makes your little fantasy world a happier place for you to pretend that everyone is, but it just ain't so."

Ditto (see what I did with that there?)

I asked you to present the quotes because I knew full well you could only present a couple that don't say what you think they say and that the rest are, apparently, made up.

OMG, are you actually claim... (Below threshold)

OMG, are you actually claiming that all this foofahrah is about the 'bloods and crips' quote and not the made up ones?!

Ok, you had me fooled there, I actually thought you were smarter than that.

So, Vic, in all your (annoy... (Below threshold)

So, Vic, in all your (annoying) posts, you've YET to prove (other than quotes) how the "Crips and Bloods" comment is racist. The burden of making that case is on you, sport, not on us or Rush to prove a negative. You're making the accusation, make the argument.

And FWIW, I don't deny the "Crips and Bloods" quote.

The trolls keep saying Rush... (Below threshold)
davidt:

The trolls keep saying Rush made bigoted remarks about NFL players.

Links, please.

I love lib mentality. Absol... (Below threshold)
JustRuss:

I love lib mentality. Absolute statement AGAINST something is required otherwise I am complicit in the argument against the NFL remarks.

Just because everyone doesn't leap to your snapped fingers and immediately disavow remarks to the contrary concerning those two or three remarks made about the NFL does not mean we agree with it.

I haven't seen you recently say that you do not idolize Mao and Che but I don't just assume you do. Though I cannot assume you don't, I will not accuse you of it through lack of evidence to the contrary.

"So, Vic, in all your (a... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"So, Vic, in all your (annoying) posts, you've YET to prove (other than quotes) how the "Crips and Bloods" comment is racist."

I haven't tried to. I've been countering the repeated attempts (see the first 4 comments plus many others) made by commenters who claim that the quotes attributed to Limbaugh are false and made up. In the case of the two NFL comments I referred to they are not false, and as I said above there are other quotes that have been attributed to Limbaugh that are in dispute.

Why I think the comments made about the NFL are racist or not is kinda moot. The NFL players who spoke up against Limbaugh felt strongly enough about that to complain, and that's what got Limbaugh booted from the deal - the fact that players stood up against Limbaugh.

Just like when country music fans and Republicans stood up against the Dixie Chicks. Both "protests" used boycott and their freedom of speech to speak and act out against the comments made.

Vic

I'm uniquely qualified to c... (Below threshold)
James H:

I'm uniquely qualified to comment on this, as I detest both Rush Limbaugh and the Dixie Chicks.

The Dixie Chicks were looking to compete in the musical marketplace. Commenting on President Bush's policies, and the reaction thereof, was part of that marketplace. While some radio stations refused to play their songs, I am aware of no attempt to foreclose their ability to earn money through their trade. I am not aware of demands that, for example, iTunes drop their music or that no record label carry their music. Moreover, there were multiple actors present in the music marketplace, and those actors did not collude to exclude the Dixie Chicks.

Rush Limbaugh was not forced out by NFL owners. Rather, he was dropped from an investment group's bid to purchase a team because his reputation harmed their bid. Nobody in his right mind disputes a person's right to choose his investment partners.

Still, the question remains: Why was Limbaugh's reputation an issue? Because the investment group was required to seek approval from existing NFL owners before it could purchase the St. Louis Rams. And actors from outside the industry brought pressure to bear on those owners not to approve Limbaugh's purchase.

Result? Rush Limbaugh is foreclosed from owning a football team, no matter how much money he wishes to invest. He cannot participate in the marketplace.

And this is where Limbaugh has been wronged. Effectively, the mere fear of action by existing members of the marketplace has unfairly excluded him from that marketplace.

To draw a parallel to the Dixie Chicks, the equivalent would have been if all radio stations had refused to play their music, ASCAP had refused to collect their royalties, iTunes and Amazon Music had refused to sell their songs, and all labels had refused to produce their albums.

If the music industry had shunned the Dixie Chicks in such a way, there would have been an outcry, and rightly so. In the case of Limbaugh, it's simply the way the NFL does business.

I detest Limbaugh. I detest his politics. I detest his broadcast persona. I detest his remarks about Donovan McNabb. But if he can afford it, I think he should be able to own a football team.


As an aside ... if being outspoken and having a large ego disqualify a person from owning a major sports franchise, how many owners would be be unable to own their teams?

Someone already pointed out... (Below threshold)
Mark S.:

Someone already pointed out hte difference between The Rush/Dixie Chicks arguments (Fans vs. collective buyers).

However, someone asked why is Olbermann not removed from his position on NBC? Because the NFL cannot force a network to remove a personality from their show. (they can raise hell about it, but it's a double-standard obviously)

For instance, ESPN did NOT fire Limbaugh from his position after his media/McNabb comment. Limbaugh voluntarily stepped down due to the hub-bub around the comment.

ESPN, at some point after he stepped down, stated they would not fire him for his comments, because believe it or not Tom Jackson himself said something himself that could have been construed in the same vein, and ESPN said they wouldn't put in a double standard (Jackson's comment didn't get the coverage from what I gather, because Tom Jackson "wasn't on the spotlight level" that Limbaugh was).

Ronnie Lott got let go on the FOX-pregame not because of a comment he made (something about minorities not owning teams), but because of his inability to get along with Terry Bradshaw, but the implication was put out there at the time by spinsters that the comment itself got him fired.

Vic, I've been asking around.. and so far, nobody's given me an answer.. since you believe it's true:

Which players (not NFLPA heads.. we already know where he stands) said they wouldn't play for the Rams? I haven't heard one name... If they're going to say it, they need to speak out publicly and not hide behind their anonymity. Particularly if "so many" people believe Rush shouldn't' have been involved in the bidding process.. i mean they have the majority on their side, right?

And I will state, once agai... (Below threshold)
James H:

And I will state, once again. If Dan (SPIT!) Snyder is allowed to own an NFL franchise, than anybody should be allowed.

Better comparison = when So... (Below threshold)
jp2:

Better comparison = when Soros tried to buy the Nationals. Recall what happened?

JT, I vote in favor of bann... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JT, I vote in favor of banning VIC. You gave him opportunity after opportunity to prove his assertions that Rush is racist. He did not. He used this website to spew the lies of the left. It is time for him to go.

Rush is not a racist anymore then SNL is when they do parodies. Just jealous disgruntled leftists that want attention.

I guarantee you if Rush bought into a football team, all players would line up to play professionally.

I recommend for Rush to use his sizable wallet to tie up the smear merchants in court to drain some resources. I would start with MSNBC, they have been operating in the red for years, they couldn't sustain a prolonged law suit. It would be worth it. Rush can donate any monies collected to charity. For you lefties, that is when you give money to those who need it. ww

"Which players (not NFLP... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"Which players (not NFLPA heads.. we already know where he stands) said they wouldn't play for the Rams? "

I hope those players who complained keep their identities a secret. We don't need cross burnings in America anymore, and you KNOW that's what would happen.

Chris Mortensen, ESPN's senior NFL analyst, wrote:

At least seven NFL players have publicly opposed Limbaugh's interest in purchasing the Rams with Checketts.

He doesn't name the players - for good reason. Racists could put those players and their families in danger.

"The only people who have a right to be offended are those to whom the comments are directed. Some of the NFL players have made their point. Some of the owners have chosen not to want Limbaugh as their partner. That's their right."

Absolutely, and many right wingers defended those who boycotted the Dixie Chicks and their right to express their opinions and boycott. It would seem hypocritical to say the boycott made by those who perceived the Dixie Chick comments as offensive was valid but the boycott made by NFL players wasn't.

Vic

"More quotes attributed ... (Below threshold)

"More quotes attributed to Limbaugh (I don't know the validity of these)...Feel free to dispute the quotes if you can."

Is it just me, or does this pretty much constitute the entire "argument" against Rush Limbaugh by liberals?

Face it, the whole thing is nothing but a rehash of "fake but accurate". From Rich Noyes:

"Back on October 7, Post-Dispatch sports writer Bryan Burwell was the first to inject the quote into the debate about whether an investment group including Limbaugh should be able to buy the St. Louis Rams..."

Burwell, after being called out, wrote:

"Fine, let's play along for the time being and take him at his word that he was inaccurately quoted in the Huberman book. Heck, let's go along for the full ride and believe that it was all a horrible "fabrication."

So what are we left with?

Well, essentially, I think we just threw a deck chair off the Titanic.

There is still a huge pile of polarizing, bigoted debris stacked up on the deck of the good ship Limbaugh that he can't deny or even remotely distance himself from."

See? It doesn't matter that he was using made-up TANG memos, I mean quotes, it fits his narrative of what Rush says (despite an inability to produce real quotes), so even though it's fake, it's accurate...and, presumably, fair game. In other words, "I don't know the validity of these" but you can "Feel free to dispute the quotes if you can".

Are you really Bryan Burwell?

I've laughed enough for today, and besides, it must be time for your meds and a nap.

These folks are never go... (Below threshold)

These folks are never going to admit that Limbaugh may have been offensive....

This isn't about being "offensive", SAUD. This ia about baselessly and viciously attacking and accusing someone of being a racist.

SAUD #47WOW! Never... (Below threshold)
jim m:

SAUD #47

WOW! Never thought it would happen, but yes we agree.

However, while I see how some people may have been upset by the NFL comments, the fake comments were what I had spoken to and they were also the ones that created the big stir. I do not see the NFL comments as racist, but they certainly can be seen as inflammatory. The fake quotes were brought out to make the real ones look worse than they really were.

I am also interested in how much influence the NFL-Holder-Obama connection had to do with it. Maybe nothing, but it seems like the petty kind of thing that, historically, Obama has participated in.

"some of the alleged quotes... (Below threshold)

"some of the alleged quotes are not sourced."

uhhh....huh? None of the alleged quotes are sourced...if they were they wouldn't be "alleged quotes". Face it, for actual stuff you've got one statement about the NFL starting to look like a gang war, which is only racist if taken out of context (not that the left ever does that, oh no), and a quote about McNabb which was an indictment of the media and how they talk about black people.

Pretty weak beer.

SAUD - But the only two NFL... (Below threshold)
jim m:

SAUD - But the only two NFL quotes are the McNabb and street gang quotes and I will agree that they don't amount to much. The point I made above that the fake quotes were used to gin up furor and that people, like Vic, would use them and then hide behind the real ones to call Rush a racist.

The two NFL quotes are not sufficient to call him a racist. The McNabb wquote was aimed at the media and everyone took it that way until McNabb complained. The Street Gang comment was a metaphor for the violence in the game and he used street gangs, which in my neck of the woods (Chicago) are multiracial.

Or was there some distin... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Or was there some distinction that makes their cases so different?

Somewhat different. The Dixie Chicks' words offended some of their fans (and gained them some new ones). Limbaugh's words revealed to his fellow investors that he was a liability, so they booted him. His fans probably like him even more now, though I doubt he's gained many new ones.

The difference is not all that significant, however. Both parties are public entertainers and businesspeople, and as such public opinion can contribute to their success or failure as entertainers and businesspeople.

In either case, any attempts to make the issue about free speech are rather stupid. Everyone has a right to free speech, but that doesn't mean others have to like you or do business with you. No one has a right to gold records or ownership of sports teams.

"The point I made above ... (Below threshold)
Victory is Ours:

"The point I made above that the fake quotes were used to gin up furor and that people, like Vic, would use them and then hide behind the real ones to call Rush a racist."

No, I've never used them to hide behind anything. I'm the one who said they are in dispute in comment # 16:

Yes, there were also some remarks attributed to Limbaugh that he claims are inaccurate,..."

and in comment # 32:

More quotes attributed to Limbaugh (I don't know the validity of these)

and in comment # 46:

"In the case of the two NFL comments I referred to they are not false, and as I said above there are other quotes that have been attributed to Limbaugh that are in dispute."

I've clearly identified those comments which are in addition to the two NFL comments as "being in dispute" and Jim M's suggesting that I've used those disputed comments to "gin up furor" and hide behind is false.

But, given the actual, undisputed comments made by Limbaugh that NFL players found to be highly offensive, that's about the only defense Jim can mount - the suggestion that the furor over Limbaugh's racism is phony and fabricated.

I don't remember the Dixie Chicks or their fans claiming that the DCs were misquoted or that the furor was made up. Big difference. Liberals stand behind and defend their actions while some conservatives choose to pretend it never happened instead and it's all part of some grand conspiracy.

Getting people like jim m to admit that some of the racist quotes attributed to Limbaugh are indeed valid quotes and not in dispute is like pulling teeth.

And notice that the first four comments on this thread claimed that the quotes were all made up and fabricated. That's the kind of lies that are being spread around in, but jim m chooses to attack me instead of addressing the honesty of his fellow conservatives.

Like I said, I don't remember Dixie chick defenders lying about what the singers said.

Vic

"And notice that the first ... (Below threshold)

"And notice that the first four comments on this thread claimed that the quotes were all made up and fabricated."

stop lying, dipstick - you're the only one pretending that the two non-racist comments that no one is disputing were called into question. The rest of the reality-based universe admits that the furor only developed over the made up quotes. Everyone else is perfectly clear which comments are being referenced when they say 'made up' or 'bogus' quotes. You're the only one pretending that the weak, non-racist ones are someone the catalyst behind this whole blow up.

someone=somehow for people ... (Below threshold)

someone=somehow for people type better than me

This is such nonsense.... (Below threshold)
JaRule:

This is such nonsense.

If the NFL doesn't want to sell to Rush, it doesn't have too. If the players don't want to play for Rush, they don't have too. If the owners don't feel comfortable backing Rush, they don't have too.

It's that whole economic freedom thing you guys are always on about.

In fact, if the Dixie Chicks want to buy your house you don't have to sell it to them. It works both ways.

I swear sometimes the far-right has such a victim complex.

"If the NFL doesn't want to... (Below threshold)

"If the NFL doesn't want to sell to Rush"

the NFL doesn't own the Rams

I don't think any rational people are saying anyone has to sell to him, they're saying that smearing someone with made up quotes to paint him as racist is wrong. Do you not think that's wrong, jarule? Do you think it is "nonsense" to be upset if someone does that?

I was interested in George ... (Below threshold)
jim X:

I was interested in George Soros' failed bid for a baseball team, so I looked that up. I hadn't even remembered it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/27/AR2005062701447.html

So it seems a wealthy and controversial **liberal** supporter didn't get what he wanted either, because he was controversial.

And some Republicans were so upset that George Soros even **could** invest in a baseball team, that they mentioned ending baseball's antitrust exemption if Soros was actually allowed to spend his **own money** how he wanted.

A seeming violation of free-market ideology, wouldn't you agree?

So look, there you have it. There's no need to feel Rush is singled out. His inability to buy a sports team is directly related to the controversy he created of his own free will - just like George Soros.

A seeming violation of f... (Below threshold)
jim m:

A seeming violation of free-market ideology, wouldn't you agree?

No I wouldn't. Both MLB and the NFL are run as clubs, exempt from anti trust laws, where they can choose their own membership. As such they can choose to deny the purchase of membership (teams) to anyone they desire.

Yes, being a controversial figure is a detriment in getting into the club. that's not surprising. The uproar is directed at the false claims of racism.

But there are differences between Soros and Rush: Soros is a convicted felon, Rush is not. Soros is a multi-multi billionaire, Rush is not. Soros is known for manipulating organizations for his profit and to the detriment of others involved. Rush is well known as a huge NFL fan, Soros was interested in baseball as an investment and is not know to be a fan at all.

It's wrong to make up quote... (Below threshold)
mantis:

It's wrong to make up quotes and claim people said them. It's very sloppy and incompetent for media outlets to repeat unverified quotes.

That said, does anyone believe that had the two fake quotes not been publicized, the outcome would have been any different? Does anyone think Rush's equating NFL players with gangbangers or implying that McNabb only gets credit because he's black would not come back to haunt him in his attempt to buy a team?

made up quotes to... (Below threshold)
JaRule:
made up quotes to paint him as racist is wrong.

Made up quotes? If any quotes are made up that is wrong. However, The man has said a lot of things over the years people feel are racially insensitive. If you don't feel they are racially insensitive that is your business, but others do and that is their right.

I don't feel like the Dixie chicks said anything insensitive, but I've seen the right twist themselves up in right angry little pretzels over their comments. That is their right.

You don't have to sell your house, or your business to Dixie chicks.

The NFL doesn't have to sell to Rush (the NFL is a monopoly and no team can sell without the vote of the other owners. That is how they do business and if the Dixie chicks try to buy a football team they will need the support of the other owners as well and you protest to your hearts content and vow never to watch a game again it's the freedom thing. .)

Now here are some things Rush has said, that people feel are insensitive:


1. I mean, let's face it, we didn't have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: slavery built the South. I'm not saying we should bring it back; I'm just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark.
Source
.
2. You know who deserves a posthumous Medal of Honor? James Earl Ray [the confessed assassin of Martin Luther King]. We miss you, James. Godspeed.
Source
Martin Luther

3. Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?
Source

4. Right. So you go into Darfur and you go into South Africa, you get rid of the white government there. You put sanctions on them. You stand behind Nelson Mandela -- who was bankrolled by communists for a time, had the support of certain communist leaders. You go to Ethiopia. You do the same thing.
Source

5. Look, let me put it to you this way: the NFL all too often looks like a game between the Bloods and the Crips without any weapons. There, I said it.
Source

6. The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies.
Source

7. They're 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?
Source

8. Take that bone out of your nose and call me back(to an African American female caller).
Source

9. I think the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. They're interested in black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well. I think there's a little hope invested in McNabb and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he really didn't deserve.
Source

10) The barack the magic negro song.


If he wanted a team he should have kept his mouth shut. If Michael moore or the dixie chicks want to buy a team, feel free to threaten boycotts, any players that don't want to play for them doesn't have too and the owners can vote against them. Now please stop acting like crybabies.


Mantis again tries 'fake bu... (Below threshold)

Mantis again tries 'fake but accurate'. No one should be upset about being smeared as a racist because they've said things previously misinterpreted to be racist.

Mantis again tries 'fake... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Mantis again tries 'fake but accurate'. No one should be upset about being smeared as a racist because they've said things previously misinterpreted to be racist.

You might be a little more convincing if your comment reflected anything I actually wrote. Instead you just make shit up since you can find no argument with my actual comments.

Looks like the james earl j... (Below threshold)
JaRule:

Looks like the james earl jones commment he never made. So scratch that one.

I don't think Obama should ... (Below threshold)
engineer:

I don't think Obama should be President.

He has made promises he hasn't kept.

He has run up the deficit.

He has eaten baby kittens.

He has repeatedly cheated on Michelle with Nancy Pelosi.

Now some of these accusations are non sourced, I can't attest for the validity of all of them and some are in dispute.

But what the heck, if Vic can include "qualifiers" like this in his agruments, I can include them in mine. And it's up to him to prove me wrong.

Furthermore, I have it on good authority that at least seven unnamed voters are highly offended by Obama because of these reasons above. He therefore should resign his Presidency immediately.

And jarule launches in with... (Below threshold)

And jarule launches in with "fake but accurate", even going so far as to restate the made up quotes that started all of this. That's a touch of genius, that is.

subtlety is lost on the lit... (Below threshold)

subtlety is lost on the little minded. fine, I'll spell it out for you, mantis.

"That said, does anyone believe that had the two fake quotes not been publicized, the outcome would have been any different?"

If they hadn't used fake quotes, does anyone think they perception of him wouldn't still be accurate?

There, happy now? The outcome may have been no different, nevertheless the lid only blew off once news outlets began running the fake TANG memos, I mean quotes. And, yes, some people are free to believe that outside of completely ridiculous made up racist comments the outcome may have been different, based, I admit, on nothing more than, as I just said, the lid only blew off after the made up comments began spreading.

And jarule launch... (Below threshold)
JaRule:
And jarule launches in with "fake but accurate", even going so far as to restate the made up quotes that started all of this. That's a touch of genius, that is.

Brught to you by the people who smeared john Kerry without real evidence.

There, happy now? The outco... (Below threshold)
JaRule:

There, happy now? The outcome may have been no different, nevertheless the lid only blew off once news outlets began running the fake TANG memos, I mean quotes.
================

It drived me crazy, when it happened to John Kerry.

oh, and a topic change atte... (Below threshold)

oh, and a topic change attempt! nice try.

as near as I can recall onl... (Below threshold)

as near as I can recall only one side proved anything about kerry in that whole dealie...and that one thing is that kerry was forced to admit he lied about 'christmas in cambodia'. As for the rest, he can release his records at any time to prove his case...we're waiting.

The outcome may have bee... (Below threshold)
mantis:

The outcome may have been no different,

So you agree with me, yet you imply I claimed the fake quotes were accurate, and then you go on to invent a position for me, that "No one should be upset..." I never said either thing. You are full of shit.

the lid only blew off after... (Below threshold)
jaRule:

the lid only blew off after the made up comments began spreading.
========================

Okay, tell you what, let's stay away from the quotes in dispute. let's just stick with one thing. Barack the magic negro.

we can agree that Rush aired a song called barack the magic negro. and that many blacks find that offensive.

Which brings us, to the fact, that Rush has done plenty African Americans find offensive. If the NFL feels that it doesn't want to take the risk of upsetting some of their fans over the man who did this, that is their right.

Just like if the Dixie Chicks, try to buy a team, you can scream and holler, and if they NFl feels like it might hurt business they probably won't get their team either.

Which, as always, brings us back to freedom.

All this whole thread amoun... (Below threshold)
914:

All this whole thread amounts to and proves is that leftists get an idea stuck in their pea sized minds and even being slapped repeatedly with reality continue to spew their bile relentlessly.

I mean, You would think by this point in the thread they would have actually produced the racist quotes? If Your having trouble as to what constitutes racist leftists? See Rev Wright. Obamas mentor and Alinski his role model.

sigh. do you even KNOW wha... (Below threshold)

sigh. do you even KNOW what "fake but accurate" implies? it implies that you are acknowledging that the one subject, either the TANG docs or in this case the inflammatory quotes, are fake, but it does not change anything because, even if you throw them out, the substance of them is still accurate, either that Bush is a National Guard shirker or that Limbaugh is a racist. by saying that you are making a "fake but accurate" argument, that means that I am accusing you of being willing to throw out the made up quotes, but then claiming that it does not matter because what the made up quotes say about Rush is still the truth.

yes, I assumed you were implying that no one should be upset because the outcome may have been no different. if that's NOT what you were saying when you said "does anyone believe" and "does anyone think", then feel free to explain more clearly why you said that, because the implication is "get over it"...which is said to someone that is, well, upset.

"Okay, tell you what, let's... (Below threshold)

"Okay, tell you what, let's stay away from the quotes in dispute."

yes, ok, let's have a discussion about why it is wrong to smear someone with made up quotes without talking about the made up quotes. yes, that's a great idea.

in fact, let's talk about why blacks think it is ok to use terms offensive to blacks and then blow up when a white person repeats them, that's a much safer argument ;)

See Rev Wright. Obamas ment... (Below threshold)
JaRule:

See Rev Wright. Obamas mentor and Alinski his role model.
=================

And if Rev. Wright ever tries to buy a football team, you can boycott and see if you can stop the deal. Any conservative players who feel inclined to do so, could speak out.

In short, they could (and certainly would) do what those against Limbaugh have done.

and the free business, that is the NFL, could decide then decide to let him buy or not as they choose.

So please enough with the whining, you guys went crazy because NBC, had Olbermann covering presidential debates. Don't tell me conservatives wouldn't write op-eds if Rev. Write was going to buy a team.

Okay, tell you what, let's ... (Below threshold)
JaRule:

Okay, tell you what, let's stay away from the quotes in dispute."

yes, ok, let's have a discussion about why it is wrong to smear someone with made up quotes without talking about the made up quotes. yes, that's a great idea.

--------------
I agree you guys were wrong to smear John Kerry with made up things. Apology accepted.

so, to you, jarule, it's ok... (Below threshold)

so, to you, jarule, it's ok for one person to "make something up" but not for someone else to "make something up"?

Your logic is escaping me.

it implies that you are ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

it implies that you are acknowledging that the one subject, either the TANG docs or in this case the inflammatory quotes, are fake, but it does not change anything because, even if you throw them out, the substance of them is still accurate, either that Bush is a National Guard shirker or that Limbaugh is a racist.

Except, dumbass, my point was clearly that there is plenty more Limbaugh has said over the years that makes him a controversial and inflammatory figure, and thus his investment partners would rather not have such a liability, regardless of the fake quotes.

Allow me to illustrate. Imagine that Bill Maher were in Limbaugh's place, and as news of his involvement became known, a number of things he has said (countless derogatory remarks about religious people, Republicans, etc.) were pointed to by detractors, along with a couple of fake quotes (like for instance, a claim that Maher said all Christians endorse child molestation). As a result, Maher's investment partners boot him from the deal. Do you think it would make a difference that a couple of the quotes were made up, in light of all the other inflammatory things he has said?

that means that I am accusing you of being willing to throw out the made up quotes, but then claiming that it does not matter because what the made up quotes say about Rush is still the truth.

As I said, you are accusing me of saying things I did not. You are full of shit.

yes, I assumed you were implying that no one should be upset because the outcome may have been no different.

And you would be wrong, and again, full of shit. I quite clearly stated that it is wrong for people to make up fake quotes, and doubly wrong for the media to repeat them without checking. What part of that led you to believe I was saying that no one should be upset when that happens?

if that's NOT what you were saying when you said "does anyone believe" and "does anyone think", then feel free to explain more clearly why you said that, because the implication is "get over it"...which is said to someone that is, well, upset.

I've explained it quite clearly, as can be seen by anyone who isn't solely interested in distorting what I've said in order to tear down a straw man. Don't you see the irony in you fabricating things I say in order to defend Limbaugh against fabricated quotes?

No I wouldn't. Both MLB ... (Below threshold)
jim:

No I wouldn't. Both MLB and the NFL are run as clubs, exempt from anti trust laws, where they can choose their own membership. As such they can choose to deny the purchase of membership (teams) to anyone they desire.

Excellent. Then we're in agreement

But there are differences between Soros and Rush: Soros is a convicted felon, Rush is not.

Rush was arrested for illegal purchase and use of prescription drug use, however. Let's not forget that, if we're to bring up past crimes.

Soros is a multi-multi billionaire, Rush is not.

They're both fabulously wealthy. I don't see why Soros being more fabulously wealthy is relevant here.

Soros is known for manipulating organizations for his profit and to the detriment of others involved.

So is Rush.

Rush is well known as a huge NFL fan, Soros was interested in baseball as an investment and is not know to be a fan at all.

Also, Rush is known to have publicly insulted McNabb as owing his acclaim to his race and not his skills. It's my opinion that that is the comment which really shot Rush down, because it makes other black players not want to play on any team he's involved in.

And this is a comment that Rush *definitely* made.

So I don't see Rush as a victim here, unless it's victim to his own desire to stir controversy and his own willingness to insult others to do it. That may not be all that Rush does; but it's certainly something he does more than enough.

If he doesn't like the fact that he's actaully being held accountable for his own actions, well as I've said elsewhere he can go and cry into one of his solid gold buckets.

Frankly, I find Michael Moo... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

Frankly, I find Michael Moore intolerably offensive, but if he wanted to buy the Red Sox I couldn't care one whit.

you honestly can't tell the... (Below threshold)

you honestly can't tell the difference between trying to interpret what someone said and making up something? really?

"Do you think it would make a difference that a couple of the quotes were made up, in light of all the other inflammatory things he has said?"

I agree 100% that anyone that made that point would also be making a 'fake but accurate' argument in that case. Except that you acknowledge that Maher makes inflammatory statements and many people, myself included, are not willing to admit that Rush makes racist statements (based solely on never being presented with one that holds up under scrutiny). A small difference, but an important one.

"As I said, you are accusing me of saying things I did not."

No, I accused you of implying things and then, in your usual way, falling back on trying to claim 'you never really said exactly that'. It's a rather tiresome technique, but you never seem to tire of it. I gave my impression of your statement because you gave no explanation until pressed.

"What part of that led you to believe I was saying that no one should be upset when that happens?"

I explained that quite clearly in #85: "if that's NOT what you were saying when you said "does anyone believe" and "does anyone think", then feel free to explain more clearly why you said that, because the implication is "get over it"...which is said to someone that is, well, upset." Looks pretty to clear to me what led me to conclude that. Considering you quoted me, one might conclude you should have caught that.

"I've explained it quite clearly, as can be seen by anyone who isn't solely interested in distorting what I've said in order to tear down a straw man."

Ummm...yeah, but you only explained it after it became clear you were unclear to begin with and I said you should explain it. Your time machine is broken.

"If he doesn't like the fac... (Below threshold)

"If he doesn't like the fact that he's actaully being held accountable for his own actions, well as I've said elsewhere he can go and cry into one of his solid gold buckets."

From what I've heard of the matter, what he doesn't like is that he was told that the known and freely acknowledged things he's said in the past "would not be a problem" and he only became a "distraction" after the fake quotes came up. Someone's lying - either his partners if they told him that and it wasn't true, the NFL if they told his partners that and it wasn't true, or Rush when he said he was told that. If your first reaction is that Rush is lying, then you'll need to reconcile the fact that no one had any assurances that he wouldn't be a distraction, but they didn't drop him before the fake quotes began flying. Similarly, if his partners are lying to another partner, then why did they keep him to begin with? And if the NFL was lying, then why didn't they just put a stop to it when they had the chance instead of stringing them along and ending up with this huge dustup? All possible, but something to think about.

The other explanation is that everyone was telling the truth as they believed it at the time and the opinions of the NFL and/or his partners only changed after the fake quotes started flying.

Well the first thing that c... (Below threshold)
jim:

Well the first thing that came to my mind wqhen I heard Rush was interested in an NFL team, was his McNabb comment.

I then read several NFL players saying they wouldn't play for a team he owns, several specifically referencing that comment.

And that seems the biggest liability to me, in terms of an investment. Why have an investor who's going to make it tough to not only keep key players, but to hire new ones? That right there could destroy the entire value of the investment.

And actually what makes the... (Below threshold)
jim:

And actually what makes the most sense to me, now that I picture it, is that Rush's co-investors were as clueless as he was about the impact of his comments on the NFL players.

Because that's the real sticking issue. People can be convinced to come see a team if it's good - but if good players refuse to play, you have nothing.

you honestly can't tell ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

you honestly can't tell the difference between trying to interpret what someone said and making up something?

I know the difference between interpretation and making shit up, yes. In order for you to "interpret" what I wrote the way you did, you had to purposely ignore some of what I wrote, and distort the rest. That's not interpretation, it's straw man bullshit.

Except that you acknowledge that Maher makes inflammatory statements and many people, myself included, are not willing to admit that Rush makes racist statements

Again you intentionally distort what I said by implying I said Rush made racist statements. I never wrote the words racist or racism. I don't claim to know what is in Limbaugh's thoughts, but it is indisputable that he says inflammatory things that offend a lot of people. Whether you or I define them as racist is irrelevant. And my point was quite clear from the first comment that public figures who make controversial statements have to expect those to come back to them. You seem to believe that since you don't interpret anything Rush has said to be racist, that there is no reason anyone should ever have an objection to his involvement in their business or investments, or to working for him.

No, I accused you of implying things

With no basis whatsoever.

and then, in your usual way, falling back on trying to claim 'you never really said exactly that'.

I didn't say, nor imply, the things you accuse me of. Stating that is not "falling back" on anything. It's just a fact.

I gave my impression of your statement because you gave no explanation until pressed.

You built a straw man, and continue to do so, regardless of how much I explain. Because you're full of shit.

CNN's Rick Sanchez has more... (Below threshold)
jim m:

CNN's Rick Sanchez has more guts than Vic and friends:


Earlier this week we provided quotes attributed to Limbaugh to illustrate why some people and players felt that Rush Limbaugh was too divisive to be an NFL owner. One of these quotes, which was in a column in the St. Louis Post Dispatch and in a book largely about conservatives, was refuted by Limbaugh. We have been unable to independently confirm that quote. We should not have reported it and for that I apologize. I feel it is important to hold folks accountable when they make mistakes, and that should include myself and my team.

Too bad the rest of he goons here can't see that the media made a mistake and some of them are professional enough to admit it.

And now for something diffe... (Below threshold)
JustRuss:

And now for something different, inspired by an earlier post. Why would this be considered Racist?

Barack the Magic Negro: In the style of Al Sharpton

Barack the Magic Negro lives in D.C. The L.A. Times, they called him that 'Cause he's not authentic like me. Yeah, the guy from the L.A. paper Said he makes guilty whites feel good They'll vote for him, and not for me 'Cause he's not from the hood.

Rush did not call him that, this song is simply repeating something from the LA Times which did not receive much flack at the time.

See, real black men, like Snoop Dog, Or me, or Farrakhan Have talked the talk, and walked the walk. Not come in late and won!

[refrain]


Expressing a few common black heroes. People that are respected or admired in black community. Compared to them Barack Obama has led a somewhat charmed life and this makes him not a "real" black man. But close enough.
Oh, Barack the Magic Negro, lives in D.C. The L.A. Times, they called him that 'Cause he's black, but not authentically. Oh, Barack the Magic Negro, lives in D.C. The L.A. Times, they called him that 'Cause he's black, but not authentically. Some say Barack's "articulate" And bright and new and "clean." The media sure loves this guy, A white interloper's dream! But, when you vote for president, Watch out, and don't be fooled! Don't vote the Magic Negro in - 'Cause -- 'cause I won't have nothing after all these years of sacrifice And I won't get justice. This is about justice. This isn't about me, it's about justice. It's about buffet. I don't have no buffet and there won't be any church contributions,....

Really this song makes fun of Al Sharpton more than Barack Obama, and nothing in it is really untrue now is it? I do not see it as racist unless you believe that racism can be used against him for not being "Black Enough" which for a liberal isn't much of a stretch from using racism to decide who can be hired or promoted or who gets access to certain social programs in what order all based on race.

If this song were on SNL would it have been a big deal? I doubt it, but SNL isn't nearly this funny.

Call me a racist for being entertained by this song. It is in poor taste but I do not find it disturbing in any way. Unlike rap songs about shooting people, beating your wife/girlfriend, or doing drugs which ARE offensive.

Frankly, I find Michael ... (Below threshold)

Frankly, I find Michael Moore intolerably offensive, but if he wanted to buy the Red Sox I couldn't care one whit.

The sanest comment yet. And I second it.

Everyone has a right to free speech, but that doesn't mean others have to like you or do business with you. No one has a right to gold records or ownership of sports teams.

Very true. However, one of the major problems with this whole issue, mantis, is that the NFL and the Players Union are locked in collective-bargaining agreement negotiations right now and it's plausible that Limbaugh's potential ownership was leaked and used as a wedge in those negotiations. I heard Limbaugh alluded to this yesterday and to being vetted by NFL honchos at the high levels. Is it true? I don't know. But the NFL and NFLPA have yet to deny either.


On a personal side note: If the NFL is so concerned about the integrity of its franchise owners, would they kindly rip Al Davis' franchise from him, please? Pretty please? No? Sigh....

There are enough real, misg... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

There are enough real, misguided, racially charged statements, (take your pick), by Limbaugh about for instance, Obama's father's roots, that one doesn't have to make up any to infer, that Rush finds Obama's heritage offensive for one reason alone, that his father, whom Obama saw once in his life, came from Kenya, Africa.


After reading extensively from an 'American Thinker' column smearing Obama, Limbaugh said on June 26 that Obama is "more African in his roots than he is American" and is "behaving like an African colonial despot".

or on August 24, Limbaugh said he "finally figured out why it is Obama's pushing so hard on this health care bill." He asserted: "He just wants us to have the same health care and plan that he had in Kenya."

Crickmore - I don'... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Crickmore -

I don't see that remark as racist. It is about corrupt political leaders and compares Obama to other corrupt leaders. The Kenya tie in is because his father was involved in government in Kenya. Kenya ends up being a place holder for any third world country and their health care system. Had Obama's father come from any other third world nation the comment would have reflected that.

Again this is a great example of how any criticism of Obama is considered as racist. If Obama were white and his father were a white colonial from Kenya Rush could have said (probably would have said) the same thing and you wouldn't call it racist.

If Obama were white and ... (Below threshold)
TexBob:

If Obama were white and his father were a white colonial from Kenya Rush could have said (probably would have said) the same thing and you wouldn't call it racist.

True, but if that were the case, then Obama would not be president or even a Senator from Illinois for that matter. A white guy with his resume would not even be considered for a Senate page job.

Oh he would have been a Sen... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Oh he would have been a Senator from Illinois. He was very skilled at getting his toughest challengers removed from the ballot before the election.

TexBob - you mean a selfmad... (Below threshold)
jim:

TexBob - you mean a selfmade multimillionaire who got into Harvard without a legacy, graduated as President of Harvard Law, then could have made a huge amount of money in corporate law but worked for the community, and then went on to be a professor of Constitutional law - all before the age of 40 - wouldn't have gotten into the Senate?

You can not like a lot of what he's done, but you have to admit that's a more impressive resume than most of the Senators in office, of either party.

Oh he would have been a ... (Below threshold)
mantis:

Oh he would have been a Senator from Illinois. He was very skilled at getting his toughest challengers removed from the ballot before the election.

Yeah, Obama sure was sneaky the way he traveled back in time and made Jack Ryan pressure his wife into orgy sex, then convinced news outlets to seek the release of the divorce records, convinced Jack and Jeri Ryan to agree to the release the divorce records, got a California judge to order the release of those records, and influenced the court-appointed referee who decided which custody records would be released. He did all this despite the fact that he was way ahead of Ryan in the polls well before the records were released (Illinois is a pretty blue state, you know). Quite impressive.

He was equally impressive in again traveling back in time to 1998 and convincing Blair Hull's wife to accuse him of abuse in an affidavit.

Texbob haha... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Texbob


hahahahahahahahah!

You're not serious are you? Let's look at what you claimed for Barry:

1)selfmade multimillionaire - he made his money mostly because of his political associations. You say that he could have made lots of money as a lawyer, but instead worked for the community. Well he can't be a selfmade millionaire and work in volunteerism services. His money comes from working on highly political, very well paid charity boards, boards he got placed on due to his connections to people like Bill Ayers and Mike Klonsky.

2) President of Harvard Law- I assume you mean the President of the Harvard Law Review. Yes he was the first black president of the review.

3) could have made huge money as a corporate lawyer - possibly, but instead he worked for organizations like Project Vote and ACORN. I'll bet he came away pretty well from those corrupt organizations. Care to pin his wealth on those organizations? I doubt it.

4) Professor of Constitutional Law - WRONG!!! He was never a professor. He was a lecturer only and never held a real full time position. He never published in his own field of so-called expertise either. His statements that he intends to be president for the next 8-10 years belie his competence as a constitutional scholar. The truth of this is found in the fact that he was an associate at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland during the same time as he was a lecturer.

Meanwhile, he gained his first elected office by going to court and having all his primary challengers removed from he ballot. To become US Senator he got his major primary opponent to drop out and then his general election opponent dropped out after sealed records of his ugly divorce were illegally delivered to the Chicago Tribune and published. Obam ran virtually unopposed to win his senate seat.

His resume is crap. In Illinois his major claim to fame is opposing a law that would prevent hospital from committing infanticide. He bottled it up in his Senate committee and as soon as he was gone the Democrat controlled Senate passed the bill and the Democrat Governor signed it. He's a disgusting ideologue.

Mantis those divorce record... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Mantis those divorce records were sealed by the court and the paper did not get them legally. Say what you want about it but he still ran unopposed for the Senate. You simply backed up my point.

Yes Illinois is a pretty blue state. So that makes a Dem winning the senate election impressive because????

Correction 107 should have ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Correction 107 should have referred to Jim not Texbob.

1)selfmade multimilliona... (Below threshold)
jim x:

1)selfmade multimillionaire - he made his money mostly because of his political associations.

Oh really? That's a rather serious allegation. Got evidence?

Because all the facts show he got his money from his salary and the money he made writing two books.

Well he can't be a selfmade millionaire and work in volunteerism services.

Why can't he?

and re: # 4 - come on.... (Below threshold)
jim:

and re: # 4 - come on.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/was_barack_obama_really_a_constitutional_law.html

"[Barack Obama] was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track...Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined."

So, okay. While he was referred to as a Professor, taught classes like one, and impressed his peers and employers so much that he was invited **several times** to be a full-time professor, you're technically correct. He was never given the formal title "Professor".

Now, please explain how being a senior lecturer on Constitutional Law, basically a professor in all but formal name - and additionally so respected that you are offered a tenured position multiple times before the age of 40 - is not impressive?

I get that you hate him and you don't like what he's doing. But you can hate his ideas without going to these lengths to deny his actual achievements in his own life.

Jim, I'll answer your quest... (Below threshold)

Jim, I'll answer your question with one of my own:

What did he do with that status?

What did he do to earn it?

Show me the articles he wrote, the cases he argued, the changes he made.

Titles without accomplishments are empty.

He was, at the same time, a rising political star. Having him on staff was a trophy for the school.

J.

vic - "Racist bigots ha... (Below threshold)
Marc:

vic - "Racist bigots have come to Limbaugh's defense, claiming he never made those racist remarks about the NFL teams and players."

And your source providing proof of that is what?

Special note and question for you Rush haters and race mongers, Fergie of the Black eyed Peas is about to become a part owner of the Miami Dolphins.

In the song Pump It one stanza reads:

"Niggas wanna hate on us (who)
Niggas be envious (who)
And I know why they hatin' on us (why)
Cause that's so fabulous (what)
I'ma be real on us (c'mon)
Nobody got nuttin' on us (no)
Girls be all on us, from London back down to the US (s, s)"

Their songs as many "artists" songs today are laced with racial overtones and words "whites" could never get away with saying.


So, all you race baiters, why is Fergie allowed to own a piece of the Dophins?

A bonus question for those that have used Rush's drug problems as an excuse, did any of you nitwits have a single complaint about former Colts owner Jim Irsay long and persistent drug problems?

Yeah, I thought not.

Frankly, I find Michael ... (Below threshold)
Vienna:

Frankly, I find Michael Moore intolerably offensive, but if he wanted to buy the Red Sox I couldn't care one whit.

And that is relevant... how?

If you were the current owner of the Red Sox, would you care one whit? Would you if you were a Red Sox ballplayer? How about if you were going to purchase the Red Sox, and Moore asked to be your business partner? Would you a few whits to care then?

That's a rather serious ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

That's a rather serious allegation. Got evidence?

How is that a serious allegation? I did not say it was ill gotten, just that he did not "earn" it but that he was given lucrative positions in big money foundations and that he got those positions due to his political connections.

He did not grow a company from the ground up or have to earn that money in a competitive market he was given money to play with and a big salary.

I will stand by my comments on his U of C work. He has never been shown to have written anything of note, which is the measure of an academic professor.

Oh and as to he U of C prof... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Oh and as to he U of C professors asking several times to join the faculty as a full professor, my brother is on the faculty and I gather that some of these decisions are based more on political correctness than they are on ability.

Like many institutions they are extremely liberal and Obama has taken several of his czars from their number.

Rush is an entertainer who ... (Below threshold)
Burt:

Rush is an entertainer who is paid to make controversial political statements. The Dixie Chicks are entertainers who are paid to sing. Natalie Raines ventured into Rush's territory and expected to be taken seriously. Rush does not expect to be taken seriously when he sings about the "Banking Queen".

More quotes attributed t... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

More quotes attributed to Limbaugh (I don't know the validity of these)
That's not all. Regarding the NAACP, Limbaugh said:

The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies.

[Quote Removed: See Editor's Note]

Recently, on life in "Obama's America":

The white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering, "Yay, right on, right on, right on, right on."

And finally, in a league made up of predominately African-American athletes, how can you have an owner who says, "[Black people] are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?"

Feel free to dispute the quotes if you can.

No need to dispute them. You yourself just said "attributed" and "don't know the validity" of the quotes. And, none of the quotes have a date/time citing. You've already put a big question mark on the whole post.

Then provide it instead ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Then provide it instead of just spewing what you read on ESPN, who also didn't link to the alleged transscript.

Here's the context, since the poster couldn't be bothered to actually source anything:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_101409/content/01125113.guest.html

In my view, aside from the fact that Crips and Bloods are multiracial (and have been for the past 10 years or so, especially in So. LA), there's a reason that the NFL is the "National Felons League". /snark.

Limbaugh admits to the "... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Limbaugh admits to the "bloods and crips" comment - why can't you guys? What kind of honest debate are you attempting by lying about this, seriously...

I know he said this, but I see you trimmed off the explanation and context. In other words, you "dowderized". You'd make a great copyist for a film distributor.

And the ESPN remarks are... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

And the ESPN remarks are in the public record, but feel free to show where Limbaugh disputes that he made that remark and that the remark got him fired from ESPN.

Duh, he's already talked about the McNabb remark many many times over the years, and yeah, the ESPN crowd were pussies who couldn't take the observation from Rush that, indeed, the sportscasters engage in "reverse discrimination" when it comes to who they push into the limelight. McNabb was an okay player, but not stellar. The only bigotry involved is that of the sportscasters referenced.

Here is the quote in full:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iueJLjF-WtM

RUSH: I've been listening to all of you guys, actually, and I think the sum total of what you're all saying is that Donovan McNabb is regressing, is going backwards --

TOM JACKSON: Mmm-hmm. (Nodding)

RUSH: -- and my... I'm sorry to say this, I don't think he's been that good from the get-go. I think what we've had here is a little social concern. I think the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well.

TOM JACKSON: Mmm-hmm. (Nodding)

MICHAEL IRVIN: (Nodding)

RUSH: I think there is a lot of hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't really deserve. The defense carried this team, I think.

let me just boil this down.... (Below threshold)

let me just boil this down...

"that's not exactly what I said, ignore the fact that everyone interpreted what I said that way, so despite the fact that you seem to actually be trying to find out what I meant, blah blah vulgarity because that makes me feel better"

Bravo.

I hope those players who... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

I hope those players who complained keep their identities a secret. We don't need cross burnings in America anymore, and you KNOW that's what would happen.

Personal Foul, number 54.

1. Amateur attempt at prognostication and/or projection of own fantasies.

2. Cross burning is so Democratic-KKK Old South, home-slice.

15 yards penalty, first down.

It'd be like me saying w... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

It'd be like me saying when I see a bunch of conservatives together I see in my mind's eye white sheets, hoods and burning crosses.

Based on the #54 post, I think you could easily redact the "like" part.

So look, there you have ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

So look, there you have it. There's no need to feel Rush is singled out. His inability to buy a sports team is directly related to the controversy he created of his own free will - just like George Soros.

Except they didn't pull unattributed quotes out of thin air that Soros "supposedly, allegedly" said.

Not EXACTLY the same thing, don't you think?

Brught to you by the peo... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Brught to you by the people who smeared john Kerry without real evidence.

No evidence at all, apart from his whole "winter soldier" testimony before Congress, his "The New SOldier" book printed in 1971, and this little tidbit on Meet The Press in the same year:

"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."


Other than that, no real evidence at all.

Okay, tell you what, let... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Okay, tell you what, let's stay away from the quotes in dispute. let's just stick with one thing. Barack the magic negro.

we can agree that Rush aired a song called barack the magic negro. and that many blacks find that offensive.

Which brings us, to the fact, that Rush has done plenty African Americans find offensive. If the NFL feels that it doesn't want to take the risk of upsetting some of their fans over the man who did this, that is their right.

Ja Rule:

Perhaps you might want to start you righteous indignation with the actual columnist (who is black) who first coined the phrase in the first place.

Allow me:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,3391015.story

Then, maybe you can share some of that anger with the many black artists who put down their own race, especially the females of their race.

A sample:
For the sex and the drugs
For the bitches and ho's
For the pimped out rides
For the coke in my nose

For the sex and the drugs
For the bitches and ho's
For the pimped out rides
For the coke in my nose

Put your hands up for the cocaine
For the co-co-cocaine

Shakin' my tree[penis] girl

By the way, the above lyrics are NOT parody.

Frankly, if blacks want to get "offended" they need to start looking in their own "cribs" first.

I then read several NFL ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

I then read several NFL players saying they wouldn't play for a team he owns, several specifically referencing that comment.

Ah, bullshit. Throw enough money at a contract player, white or black, and see how those morals hold up.

The NFL players moral compasses aren't all exactly pointing "north" these days.

Yeah, Obama sure was sne... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Yeah, Obama sure was sneaky the way he traveled back in time and made Jack Ryan pressure his wife into orgy sex, then convinced news outlets to seek the release of the divorce records,

While Ryan trashed his own marriage on his own, Obama backers had their sticky fingers in the whole mess:

As the progressed, the lawsuit brought by the Chicago Tribune to open child custody files from Ryan's divorce was still continuing. Barack Obama's backers emailed reporters about the divorce controversy, but refrained from on-the-record commentary .[18] On March 29, 2004, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Robert Schnider ruled that several of the Ryans' divorce records should be opened to the public, and ruled that a court-appointed referee would later decide which custody files should remain sealed to protect the interests of Ryan's young child.[19] A few days later, on April 2, 2004, Barack Obama changed his position about the Ryans' soon-to-be-released divorce records, and called on Democrats to not inject them into the campaign.[18]

[18]^ a b Fornek, Scott. "Obama: Back off divorce files", Chicago Sun-Times (2004-04-03).
[19]^ Ford, Liam. "Some Ryan divorce files should be unsealed", Chicago Tribune (2004-03-30).

But what does this have to do with Rush Limbaugh?

LOL VIO is trying to say, t... (Below threshold)
epador:

LOL VIO is trying to say, this is the great cut and paster folks, is trying to say he/she doesn't know how to copy a web address and paste it in a comment like this:

http://www.snidelyworld.com/Humor/Upgrade.htm

SAUD, the consummate straw-... (Below threshold)
epador:

SAUD, the consummate straw-man artist, with a hyperbolic metaphor that might be more aptly applied to previous SAUD posts, I think I am seeing a pattern here.

BTW Jay Tea, LOOK at the traffic you get with a short Socratic question!

Speaking of links, folks, l... (Below threshold)
epador:

Speaking of links, folks, lets see some leftist take WITHOUT kos talking points on what Rush has to say himself about this:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704322004574477021697942920.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel

I must say, that's some mig... (Below threshold)
liberal troll:

I must say, that's some mighty fine comment fishing there, JT. Mighty fine.

Next time try this:

Ronald Reagan v. Ted Kennedy

Go.

Straw men? Really now, I t... (Below threshold)
epador:

Straw men? Really now, I think you've been watching the Wizard of Oz too much lately. He does a fine job of presenting some examples of divisive and racially prejudiced folks who are accepted by the NFL-types, and participated in smearing him. He doesn't ask you to challenge these examples (which would be the true straw man approach).

Now I am no Rush-supporter, but he makes a coherent argument, and you just sling your own poo. I don't see him whining. Unless you think this is whining:

As I explained on my radio show, this spectacle is bigger than I am on several levels. There is a contempt in the news business, including the sportswriter community, for conservatives that reflects the blind hatred espoused by Messrs. Sharpton and Jackson. "Racism" is too often their sledgehammer. And it is being used to try to keep citizens who don't share the left's agenda from participating in the full array of opportunities this nation otherwise affords each of us. It was on display many years ago in an effort to smear Clarence Thomas with racist stereotypes and keep him off the Supreme Court. More recently, it was employed against patriotic citizens who attended town-hall meetings and tea-party protests.

These intimidation tactics are working and spreading, and they are a cancer on our society.

BTW, #135 = strawman (and ... (Below threshold)
epador:

BTW, #135 = strawman (and there's no comparison for a successful actor, businessman, governor and President to a drunken skirt-chasing killer hiding behind his family's name and money).

epador, you keep using this... (Below threshold)
liberal troll:

epador, you keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And yes, that's whining.

Ronald Reagan v. Ted Ken... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Ronald Reagan v. Ted Kennedy

One actually made it to the Presidency.

Ronald Reagan v. Ted Ken... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Ronald Reagan v. Ted Kennedy

One of these two irish men could handle his alcohol.

One of these men could speak without stammering incoherently

One of these men has a bridge named after him, the other drove off one.




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