Fox and CNN are both now reporting a third gunmen. An aide to the local Congressman is reporting that he has heard both rifle and pistol fire. The aide is a former combat soldier who retired as a chaplain.

My guess on the multiple types of fire is the MP's returning fire with their 9mm's. Rifle fire would be unusual from soldiers on base unless it was the MP's SWAT team or maybe guards around an armoury with M4's instead of shotguns.

Does the Army arm their sentries with shotguns like the Corps?

As good as our military is, it has some very serious troubles. Our volunteer army is overextended in two wars, and many soldiers are near the emotional breaking point. Further, 75% of all young men in the U.S. are seen as unfit for military service due to criminal backgrounds, drugs, overweight, or poorly educated dropouts. Never in the nation's history have so many young men been so unfit as to not to not qualify for military service, and the 25% who do qualify as enlisted men are often emotionally drained by difficult wars against shadowy enemies. This is a real crisis here.

Obama planned this just so it gets the anti-marxist movement off the front page

Generally speaking, with the exception of on-duty MP's, soldiers on Army Forts are unarmed. Armories, or arms-rooms are protected by locks and alarms not armed guards. Ammo Supply Points have some armed guards (normally contractors), but those are normally not close to the main installation.

It is illegal to be in possesion of privately owned firearms on military installations unless hunting, on a target range, or those retained in gov. quarters.

Liberals on capital hill are responding with calls to ban guns from military bases, particularly assault weapons :-)

Jay Tea -- I wouldn't be so glib or hasty if I were you. At this point, we don't know who did it.

Pay em off and they will quit shooting - - it worked in Iraq.

At this point, we don't know who did it.

Look, who cares lets start another war in a foreign country and bomb em back to the stone age see?

Liberals will blame the guns blame the U.S. Supreaum court and blame the NRA as stupid liberal idiots always do

Liberals will blame the guns blame the U.S. Supreaum court and blame the NRA as stupid liberal idiots always do

Look, if the supreaum kort woulnt have put me in office we wouldnt have had 911 two wars a bailout for wall street of 13 trillion and no bid contracts for Dicky boy and a deep recession. See, stoopid libruls.

James, I appreciate the cautioning, but if I've said it and I'll stand by it, right or wrong.

Unlike other bloggers I could mention, I don't try to hide or bury or delete my statements. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it at least as publicly as I said it first.

Two coordinated shootings in separate parts of the base...

J.

"Look, who cares lets start another war in a foreign country and bomb em back to the stone age see?"

Seriously. Even though there is no evidence at this stage that the killings were done by muslim jihadists of any sort let's not waste any time exposing our hatred for muslims.

Look, we know it wasnt libruls cause they, see, would been running around with peace signs and smoking pot, look, having sex or something disgusting like that Prejean nasty sex tape I watched.

Jorge:

Shut the hell up. We don't know anything yet, and cracking wise about Iraq is just poor taste.

A military briefing just said that the shooters are indeed soldiers. Unbelievable.

Shut the hell up. We don't know anything yet, and cracking wise about Iraq is just poor taste.

Look, what about, see, another patriot act then or some warrantless wiretaps sneak and peek or something rights removal stuff?

Jorge --

There is a time and a place for trenchant criticism of military or government. This is neither that time nor that place. My prior advice stands.

I pray these are not soldiers, but at the same time it gives me deep worry about security getting on base if that is the case.

As for the 75% comment you have to remember they have been drawing down since 2003 or so, part of the reason I am no longer in the Navy is that I couldn't keep up with more stringent physical requirements DESIGNED to draw down the force after my broken leg. It is not the criminal backgrounds that are keeping people out as there are easy waivers for that kind of thing (or were 10 years ago). It is more stringent entry requirements in place specifically because the idiot Rumsfeld decided we didn't need so many people.

In any even my prayers are with the people and the families of Ft Hood. I don't know whether to root for it being dreanged soldiers or terrorists of some sort sneaking onto the base. Either one is a lose-lose.

Oh and the comments about going to war over this are IDIOTIC! You stupid pieces of liberal trash this incident is nothing NOTHING like the death and destruction on 9/11/2001. To make a comparison and make FUN of it is supremely anti-american and generally in bad taste.

Then again, who ever accused Steve Green or any of the other liberal weenies here of loving America?

I'm not one to usually advocate banning people, but this whorehay scumbag needs to be given the heave-ho.

Obviously, more gun control legislation would have prevented this.

/snark

PS we don't hate Muslims you idiot, we hate JIHADIS! People who claim a holy war against us deserve our hatred. STFU

The base just had a press conf:

12 dead including shooter... 31 wounded

Shooter was military.

at 13:30 single shooter walked into readiness center and opened fire. Shooter killed by police.

One police officer killed - civilian police office.

TWO MORE soldiers in custody. The General did not say why... They are 'suspects' but apparently from what he said they were not armed.. this seemed fuzzy.

latest news says gunmen were soldiers:

http://www.kxxv.com/global/story.asp?s=11451553

If the shooters were soldiers, this is tragic on several levels. Any word of motive yet?

I'm not one to police comments but that doesn't mean I won't under any circumstances.

If you want to post snarky comments on a news story where 12 people are dead and many more injured, go to a place like fark.com where such behavior is both expected and encouraged.

I'd appreciate it if future comments on this post showed some respect for victims and their soon to be grieving families.

BTW dumb question of the press conference after learning it was 12 dead 31 injured by two handguns:

"Did the shooter reload?"

How many handguns carry 20+ rounds each?

But beyond that who the F--- cares... Like if he reloaded that makes him a REALLY bad man.

dumbass.

BTW guy giving briefing only a Col.

Can't watch briefing from where I am. Did press ask about PTSD or TBI?

Malik Nadal Hasan

Paul:

First off, recall that the average reporter doesn't know as much about guns as you do. Second, reloading question strikes me as a good one. If shooters reloaded, indicates they had extra ammo, which indicates they planned to kill a lot of people.

Paul:

Also, reporters are going to write "scene" articles to go with the straight news coverage. Whether a gunman reloaded is important for reconstructing the shooting in the "scene" article.

Paul H- You are the classic dhimmi. This is an Islamic act of terrorism and only the beginning of the coming battle. Your Lord and Master Obama is taking us down a treacherous path with his bowing to Saudi Kings and weakness in the face of enemies.

Just noticed that among people available for media comment, the American Legion's roster of experts includes a PTSD expert.

can't believe Obama gave a shoutout to a group before "mentioning" what happened at Ft. Hood!

#26 and #29,
Also, don't forget that in these situations, people are injured trying to escape, take cover, etc. I'm sure we'll learn in detail the casualty break down. Unless the islam angle provokes a complete "Not the droids we're looking for" response from the press. Which I doubt.

As for handguns with 20 rounds, more than a few can accept a large magazine. Awkward as hell to conceal them though, and ungainly.

Jorge Arbusto/Quisp has gone off to collect his 72 virgin sheep.

J.

I am willing at this point that the shooter and accomplices are islamic jihadists with a sudden hate for our way of life. The religion of peace strikes again.

Paul Hooson, you are confusing an article concerning the people who WANT to go in the service but cannot for reasons you mentioned.

I wish the "peaceful" muslims would come out vocally in this country against these acts. I think deep down they aren't ashamed of them. ww

D.T.H. (Death by Thor's Hammer). Thank you Jay.

"75% of all young men in the U.S. are seen as unfit for military service"
"It is more stringent entry requirements in place specifically"

75 % I like to see a reference link to that one.

I'm not sure where your get the more stringent entry requirements idea. When I join up the APFT and ASVAB requirements were higher than today's. Maybe the Navy is different.

Criminal backgrounds complaint is such B.S. An assault (fight) or a D.U.I requires a waiver. People try to make it sound like they are accepting harden criminals. Easy way to decrease the number of waivers is having only serious felonies requiring a waiver.

The unfit for lack of passing APFT is B.S. also. When in a war zone P.T. training and testing can often be push to the side. The same goes for a good deal of testing and training requirements that is typical of the military in peacetime. That doesn't mean they are not fit for war except to the paper pushers in the rear.

Studied in Syria and recently converted to Islam. WTF? We are PCing ourselves to death.

That's one of the problems with the U.S.: too many morons with easy access to guns.

Wayne: "75 % I like to see a reference link to that one."

So would most of us.

Being an observer of Wizbang for lo these many years, I can safely assert that one would have to search far and wide to find an individual who was more ignorant of military matters than Paul Hoosen. Yet, strangely, he clearly feels compelled to continue posting his astonishingly ignorant thoughts.

We are PCing ourselves to death.

Don't think you're far wrong on that, Pretzel. We set the rules, we try to live by them, and there's others who have no problems at all with using them against us. But it's all part of that 'moral equivalency' stuff, you know? Can't be judgemental, can't promote your way of life over anyone else's, can't say something is right or wrong...

And then some wonder why it comes back to bite us in the ass.

SJHS - by a a guy that was NOT a recent convert to Islam who had out spoken beliefs about the war in Afghanistan and did not want to be deployed there.

Relative says that he has been in the Army since he graduated from high school.

I'd say he snapped and capped a lot of innocent people before he was shot dead. The only good I can see coming from this is at least there will not be a trial.

This is so devastating. My condolences to the victims' families.

"If the shooters were soldiers, this is tragic on several levels."

On the plus side they'll both be in front of a firing squad within days. No Jimmy Carter appointed weenie judge for them.

My family has a very long military history, Drago. Some killed, some as POWs, some injured in thne line of duty. But, this psychiatrist likely snapped and instead of dealing with his own issues chose to ruin the lives of others. Unlike the men in my family, this soldier was a complete disgrace to his country.

It was all over the news about 75% of young men being unfit for military service this week. Where were all the readers here who question this? Don't you guys buy the daily paper or watch the news?

Paul H., you are confusing the article. The army's study showed the young adults now are not qualified to serve IF they wanted to. We all read the article. You are taking that report the wrong way. Please re-read. ww

Yes, thank you Jay.

Late bloomer. But a bloomer none the less.

Hello Wildwillie, what you say is correct. 75% of young adults are not fit to serve if they wanted to. I thought that was what I was saying. But regardless, the incident today appears to be a terrible case of a soldier snapping under pressure. He should have sought some sort of military discharge if he was that troubled.

One further issue might be any use of antidepressants by this psychiatrist. These medications don't work, and can often result in suicide or weird antisocial behavior such as violence. In Oregon, a 12 year old boy killed his parents and shot up his school under the influence of antidepressants some years back. There really needs to be a serious scientific study to determine if antidepressants aren't useless, if not actually dangerous and create serious antisocial behavior in many persons. Messing with brain chemistry through drugs is reckless in my view.

Damn, shooter is alive...

The shooter knew what he was doing and chose to do it. He chose to dishonor his family, his country and his oath. The meds didn't make that choice for him. Being a mental health proffessional, he knew the avenues open to adress his issuesand chose to kill unarmed Soldiers instead.

I truly hope he burns in the deepest, darkest depths of hell. His memory deserves no compassion.

Hooson, the shooter (I'm going to presume him guilty) violated his oath of service. He violated his oath as an officer. He violated his Hippocratic Oath.

But he kept his oath to his faith.

He didn't snap. He saw a conflict between his loyalties, and chose which he would obey.

Did you have this much sympathy for the guy who shot the abortion doctor a few months ago?

I sincerely doubt it.

J.

the UCMJ doesn't allow for an insanity defense, and it DOES allow for execution.

I hope this jihadi wannabe gets a swift trial...20 minutes oughta do...and an even swifter execution!

The asswipe is exhaling Co2 with every breath and warming the planet...he needs to stop doing that.

Mr. Hooson,

I appreciate you willingness to try to bring understanding and compassion to what happened today. It is one of the things that makes you a decent man.

However, sometimes all we really want is vengance.

I hope they HANG him!

First of two:
There's been a lot of talk today about the "stress" of our soldiers. You know, our guys in WWII didn't go for two or more deployments; they just went, and stayed, and fought until they died or the war was over (and then many of them left Europe and went to the Pacific).

See, they weren't pampered and protected from all risk and all stress like we raise our kids today.

You can see where this argument leads.

Second of two:
I think today's case lends some support to my concern that if Obama chose to take over the military for his personal support (as in a Hitler-type transition to a dictatorship), the potential is definitely there.

Way scary!

"I hope they HANG him!"

No.. Waterboard Him first, than lawyer Him up, than HANG Him and His lawyers.

If this weren't so tragic, I'd say this is why it is dangerous to arm regular service medical personnel.

This guy wasn't SOF or Airborne. He was a Useless USUHS grad in psychiatry with no civilian experience. He must have spent some time preparing himself to use firearms and arm himself. I suspect he didn't "snap" and make a sudden impulse decision to do this if he was able to take out so many people. This was likely planned.

Paul, drugs don't make people criminal. Criminal people are given drugs and they don't prevent criminal behavior. They do offer in some venues a "defense" that is so bullshit it shouldn't be allowed except that the gullible juries and judiciary buy into it.

S. Green-

"Even though there is no evidence at this stage that the killings were done by muslim jihadists of any sort let's not waste any time exposing our hatred for muslims."

Well?... Go ahead than? Expose Your hatred.

Quisp-

Obama planned this just so it gets the anti-marxist movement off the front page

You can take the Helicopter blades off Your head now and come in for a landing.

You've ruined My childhood memory of Quisp cereal. It was My favorite You ingrate.. Thanks a lot.

Hello Jay. I sure can't respect anyone who uses violence against innocent persons. It was the obligation of the shooter to seek help for himself, and not attempt to make others somehow responsible for his own problems. That form of projection is pretty disturbed in my view. That's normally the sort of psychology and behavior associated with paranoid schizophrenics(i.e. They believe themselves to be persecuted by others, so sometimes strike out).

With the shooter being a doctor and psychiatrist, I sure expected far better of him. He should have recognized his own disturbed thoughts. Heck, as a soldier I expected much better of him as well. His violent acts were a disgrace to his uniform as well as deeply emotionally disturbed way to handle whatever stress he felt under.

As far as the murder of Dr. George Tiller. I'm personally pro-life and always was deeply saddened that Tiller chose to profit from abortion, even though he was actually a very religious man who felt that he was providing women in trouble a service. Tiller was serving as a church usher the day he was shot to death. I can't understand the shooter murdering Tiller because he felt was a murderer. That's a bizarre train of thought.

I've never liked abortion, and never will. But at the same time some shouldn't be fooled that the overturn of Roe v. Wade would somehow outlaw abortion. It simply turns the issue over to the states, most of which would still allow abortion.

I also have my serious doubts that most any Republican president would really appoint the justices necessary to overturn Roe as well. A few years ago, before Bill Clinton, all nine Supreme Court justices on the court were registered Republicans, yet Roe remained mostly intact. I strongly feel that most Republican presidential candidates use the lure of supporting the overturn of Roe simply to draw votes, but I doubt few are really serious about the issue. My best guess is that Roe remains intact, no matter who is president. But that's another story.

Not content with just slandering U.S. soldiers, Hooson now wants to change the discussion over to Tiller and abortion and Roe v. Wade.

Fuck off, Paul.

You're a shitstain to be acting this way on this thread.

We should first think about how this will affect the Muslim community in our country before we go blaming anyone, i don't believe that this is about anything other than the fact that our military is overused in areas we don't need to be in. I hope that anyone reading about this keeps the families of the killed in their minds and i hope that this won't bring violence towards the muslim community in America. I also believe that the military handled this situation the best way that the could have. I just want to make sure that anyone who starts placing blame realizes the different aspects to what happened here and what will become of this horrible incident.

"Breaking: Shooting at Fort Hood, 7 Dead"

Hooson-

I'm personally pro-life and always was deeply saddened that Tiller chose to profit from abortion, even though he was actually a very religious man who felt that he was providing women in trouble a service. Tiller was serving as a church usher the day he was shot to death. I can't understand the shooter murdering Tiller because he felt was a murderer. That's a bizarre train of thought"

Did everyone have a good day? Good, it was great to see the sun for one day out of a month.

I swore AL gore promised everything was gettin toasty? Well, He's totally cool in those big mansions of ours.

These global warming posts are so cool.

I chose today to take a half a day off. My wife and I were on the road when we heard about this and I just got home (went to a concert in Houston).

I havent seen any TV coverage on it at all.

Jay Tea. Just FYI. I saw you mentioned 2 shootings at 2 different locations on the base. I had heard early reports that there were shootings at the soldier service center and then shooting at a theatre. I assume that is what you were talking about. The theatre they are referring to is about 300 yards from the soldier support center. Just wanted to clarify that point.

And of course al Jazeera has the obligatory article out: "Muslim groups fear backlash after Fort Hood ..."

SAUD:

Jay Tea has already taken the great leap into it must be a Jihad on this thread Screw the facts which of course are unknown. No need for him or others to have the facts to make the "obvious" conclusion

1) It's hardly a 'great leap', except if you're mental midget.
2) The facts are currently know via his postings

Saud -

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, eats like a duck, fucks like a duck, flaps like a duck, flies like a duck, makes nests and lays eggs like a duck, incubates them like a duck, leads the little ducklings around like a duck, shits like a duck, and thinks like a duck, I ain't going to call it an 'avian-like creature of unknown origin' unless I've never seen a duck before and was totally unfamiliar with them.

But we've been fucked by this duck before - it's familiar. Denial isn't an option, much as we'd all like to believe it ain't a duck.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the title below this posting is, "Whose Minding the National Security Shop?"

The man has a Muslim name, his brother said they grew up Muslim but I can't imagine they would investigate whether he was a convert to NoI if they didn't have reason to suspect.

We cannot be certain that it has any connections to the fact that he was Muslim but its amazing how it is getting buried in the press. If it had been a "Tim McVeigh" white guy you can bet we would hear about domestic terrorism as a possibility.

After hearing that the other two arrested have been released I hope it isn't a terrorist plot but just a terrorist act by a confused man. But he is alive so we should get some facts eventually.

I am also happy to hear that the Police Officer is alive as well. A small ray of sunshine in an otherwise crappy day.

re: ""Muslim groups fear backlash after Fort Hood ..."

Really?

Acts of terrorism worldwide, car bombs, IED's, beheadings, assassinations, etc since the time of Sirhan Sirhan and they are worried about repercussions?

Imagine that.

Don't think it's getting buried in the press; His Muslim identity is front and center in the Houston Chronicle

Madal Malik Hasan -- that's a fine Irish Catholic name.

al Jazeera has the obligatory article out: "Muslim groups fear backlash after Fort Hood ..."

And yet, this 'backlash' that they keep trying to spin has never happened, despite multiple attempts by militant islamists to foment violence.
Oh well, I suppose one of these days it will happen. Then people will realize that islam isn't merely a religion but it's also a political system.

I wouldn't call this an act of jihad. That would glorify it, IMO. Seems to me we have a case of a psychiatrist and officer who betrayed his fellow soldiers' trust. Which is more disquieting than jihad, in a way.

'Acts of terrorism worldwide, car bombs, IED's, beheadings, assassinations, etc since the time of Mohammed.'

FIFY

Everywhere that islam is, there is war.
They are a violently expansionist culture.
Until/unless they have their own Reformation and Age of Reason transformation, they will be at war with the rest of the world.
You either recognize this fact or not.

Whether or not the Ft. Hood killer was purely on jihad or was a nutjob influenced by jihad, I don't know.

Perhaps the One's "Pet Goat Moment" regarding his remarks of this tragedy will help VIO, jp2, etc. put this in proper perspective.

Yep, looking above, I think they do share a similar attitude.

AP News: Ft. Hood suspect reportedly shouted 'Allahu Akbar'

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Soldiers who witnessed the shooting rampage at Fort Hood that left 13 people dead reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" - an Arabic phrase for "God is great!" - before opening fire, the base commander said Friday.

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said officials had not yet confirmed that the suspected shooter, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, made the comment before the rampage Thursday. Hasan was among 30 people wounded in the shooting spree and remained hospitalized on a ventilator.

All but two of the injured were still hospitalized, and all were in stable condition.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that this guy knew what he was doing, that it wasn't an unplanned act.

Instapundit link, sorry I forgot that...

First sorry for getting off subject.

I look into it and IMO the 75% is overstated, probably for sensational effect to get their point across. One their study was of Virginia. I suspect a good portion of the 75% they say are unfit to join would be able to join if they try. Waiver have a negative reputation but shouldn't because so much of the requirements are B.S. For example a football player with 5% body fat would be considered overweight and need to take tape test. Many of the waivers are basically CYA. Minor medical issues have little to no impact on job fitness but need Medical waivers. Same goes for the moral waivers. Hell you could be completely innocent but because you were detained by a cop, you would need a waiver see below. So once again many of the 75% they came up with as unfit would need B.S. waivers but are plenty fit for service but it makes for a good sensational story.

"You are considered to have law violations if you have ever been arrested, charged, cited, or held, or detained in any way by any law enforcement agency (to include, Juvenile Authorities, Police Officers, Sheriff, Department of Natural Resources, Fish and Game Wardens, Military Police, etc.) regardless of disposition (whether the case resulted in no charges filed, fine, probation, dismissal, or other disposition. This includes traffic tickets."

Hmm, the guy handed out the Qu'ran to neighbors before he went on a murder spree, and shouted "Allahu Akbar!" -- "God is great!" in Arabic -- before opening fire. Not a SHRED of evidence of Jihad, according to SAUD. Nothing to see here, move along.

SAUD

Blow me!!!

Go back into your liberal hole with your head stuck up your liberal ass and do everyone a favor and shut the fuck up.

Soldiers who witnessed the rampage reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" -- an Arabic phrase for "God is great!" -- before opening fire

"Allahu Akbar!" == poor "harassed psychiatrist"

Now the "PC bunch", which seems to include the FBI, are telling us that his being a Muslim had nothing to do with the shootings. Instead we are to believe that he was merely a poor "harassed psychiatrist."

Apparently, anybody yelling "Allahu Akbar!" should now be considered a poor "harassed psychiatrist" hellbent on killing everybody nearby. I wonder if the American Psychiatric Association will now come under "Patriotic Act" scrutiny.

JFO: Oddly enough we never saw any articles titled: "Christians fear backlash after Tiller's death"

I wonder why.

SAUD:

1) I said "likely." When you say I said it was an absolute, you are lying.

B) As others have noted, SAUD, so far all the evidence is showing that I was correct. Some of the finer details -- like the numbers of gunmen -- have been changing since I first made my prediction, but all evidence towards motive is firmly in my corner.

III) Every now and then, I cheerfully go out on a limb and make predictions before all the facts are in. I make a point of saying that they are purely my opinion, by using such terms as "likely," but I don't state it as absolute.

Why does it bother you so much that I'm usually right?

And, consequently, you're almost always wrong?

J.

Jay Tea, what difference would it make if you were right or wrong?

In every case of domestic murder or rape, one could guess with high probability of success that the perpetrator is a male. Should that colour anyone's perceptions of males? Should that affect the way males are treated in the eyes of the law? No, and no--and when it does, people complain about it, and rightly so.

This case changes nothing: there remains a very, very small population of the Islamic world that could be classified as "Jihadi"; they want to kill Jews, Christians, and Westerners in general; and it remains immoral and impractical to try and prevent mass murder through ethnic profiling. Innocent people will continue to be killed, and the only surefire way of avoiding it is to live below the surface of the earth in a bunker. Canned food sucks, so people are better off taking their chances on the surface.

Seriously, I have no idea what anyone is supposed to take away from this massacre, other than a reminder that human life is all too fleeting, some Muslims are murderous lunatics, and tragedy will forever be with us. None of these facts can or should affect the way people go about their daily lives, except of course that Muslims in certain parts of the United States--regardless how patriotic--will likely be treated with some (or more) animosity for awhile, and at a visceral level this is somewhat understandable. Some will advocate for a ban on Muslim immigration, but they will continue to exist within the margins of public discourse. Drunk driving, domestic violence, suicide, and workplace accidents will each kill far more people in the Western world than religiously-motivated violence this year, and the year after, and the year after that, ad infinitum. While I do not deny that this heinous crime warrants a great deal of anger and sorrow, it should be considered as part of the overall set of unnecessary calamities. Islamic jihad should be nowhere near the top of anyone's list of Very Scary Things, but then some people obviously just need a bogeyman on which to focus their fear and hatred.

Hyper -

Long time no see, man! I'm surprised you haven't weighed in on the economy or the Obamaccare fiascos. I was actually expecting you weeks ago on them.

"Islamic jihad should be nowhere near the top of anyone's list of Very Scary Things, but then some people obviously just need a bogeyman on which to focus their fear and hatred."

I don't know about you, but I DO NOT NEED OR WANT CRAP LIKE THIS, and I'm pretty certain nobody else here does. As far as I'm concerned, all Muslims are innocent until they start shooting people, at which point I'm looking for/at whatever cause there may be that's MAKING them do crap like this, because I want it to STOP.

So we're asking the question - is this endemic to Islam? Is it a bug, that randomly causes otherwise sane people to shoot people in a BSOD frenzy that doesn't end until they're dead? Or is it a feature, hidden in some obscure submenu until a knowledgeable Iman hits the right key combos and activates it with a time delay?

You act as if it's just something we've got to put up with - like weather or traffic problems.

If it's a software/hardware glitch, then it needs to be fixed if at all possible. If it's a feature, then some reprogramming is needed -0 if it can be done. Either way, your attempt to downplay it is condescending and annoying.

But then, that's you in a nutshell.

Hey Hyper, I remember you once saying you thought Lawson was one of the reasonable ones around here. Care to elaborate?

JL, I've been extremely busy, and also needed a detox from internet discussion/bickering. After this particular tragedy, I had to see how people are reacting. Glad that most people aren't painting the entire Muslim population as a bunch of insane jihadis beholden to their insane radical clerics, for the same reason that we don't lump all Christians into the same category as radical bigots like James Dobson and Bill Donohue. (And no, I'm not equating those idiots with violent jihadists.)

I don't think you ought to put up with anything. I do think, however, that certain things cannot be totally controlled--weather, traffic, disease, and the possibility of a violent death at the hands of evil/misguided/psychotic/stupid terrorists, domestic or otherwise.

Let's accept for the sake of argument the Malkin line that Islam is inherently poisonous and will generate a few murderous psychos every year. And also accept for the sake of argument that moderate mullahs and imams cannot, or will not, expose the evil members of their faith to the light of day.

So: what do you do about it then? I really don't think anything can be done. Do you have any suggestions? Internment camps might work, but then they might foster hatred among even the most moderate Muslims, and thus be a self-defeating measure. Stricter penalties? Probably would have no effect on someone who thinks that earthly life is relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things, considering the treats Allah has waiting for him/her.

Now I don't accept the paranoid line anyway. I hate conservative, fundamentalist Islam and all that it stands for, but I like my Muslim friends and appreciate their contributions to my society and have no worry whatsoever about them spontaneously developing a hatred for the society that they currently enjoy being part of. You can choose to live in fear of a violent death at the hands of a jihadi gunman or suicide bomber, but my point is this: you would be better off worrying about cancer or drunk drivers because they are a much bigger threat to your well-being.

I think his reaction is a lot more reasonable than, say, mag's, who took the opportunity in another thread to say, in as many words, that it's reasons like these that prevent her from trusting any Muslims.

On the whole, JL is on the much saner side of the spectrum of people with whom I hold intractable political/ideological differences. Certain of his beliefs I might find totally incomprehensible, but that certainly works both ways. And also he tends to be more civil and coherent than quite a few other posters here.

Certain of his beliefs I might find totally incomprehensible, but that certainly works both ways.

LOL - ain't it the truth? Thing is, I believe we can disagree without being disagreeable about it, and although it's maybe immediately satisfying to call someone names, in the long run you're cutting off any chance of a dialog. Admittedly, there's a lot of folks out here who DON'T want a dialog of any sort - but that's not going to stop me from trying to get them to understand where I'm coming from, or try to understand their point of view even if I don't agree with it.

And from my point of view, you're pretty close on the 4 things that can't be controlled - weather, traffic, disease, and the possibility of a violent death at the hands of evil/misguided/psychotic/stupid terrorists. The thing is - the first three are more or less 'natural' problems. We can't control the weather, traffic engineers are working on the second, the CDC and others are working on disease. But the people working on the second two are doing their best to make things BETTER, not figure out more efficient ways to spread Ebola and pneumonic plague, or set up crosswalks so blind people will have a higher chance of being hit.

Any religion (even atheism) comes down to a matter of programming. (Think atheism isn't a program running in the brain? If there's no God, it doesn't matter whether someone ELSE believes in a God or not - yet most atheists are violently anti-religion. What is that reaction coming from, if not a conditioned, programmed 'reflex'?)

Christianity? Programmed. Hindu? Programmed. Islam? Programmed. Any belief system has to be programmed into the brain, correct?

So item number 4 - the possibility of a violent death at the hands of evil/misguided/psychotic/stupid terrorists... is programmed into the terrorist. Could be a bug, could be a feature - but it's learned behavior, right?

So the question is - how can we patch Islam so this isn't an occurance? Or is it even possible?

HB--

Slightly off-topic, but I'm just curious what your reaction would be if Major Nidal Malik Hasan turned out to be one of those Bible-toting-fundamentalist-Christian-types. I wonder if you could honestly assess what your first thoughts would be.

In the first moments of the public's awareness of this heinous mass-murder, I can't help believe that there were some, perhaps many, of a particular ideology who were praying that those responsible were, say, Oath Keepers.

What then?

Hyper, I offered an opinion. It's kinda what I do around these parts. If you got a problem with opinions, maybe you oughta reconsider reading blogs entirely...

J.

Hyper

"On the whole, JL is on the much saner side of the spectrum of people with whom I hold intractable political/ideological differences. Certain of his beliefs I might find totally incomprehensible, but that certainly works both ways. And also he tends to be more civil and coherent than quite a few other posters here. "

Spoken by a person who feels doctors should be allowed to kill infants in certain circumstances.

retired military, you should move somewhere where it's accepted that the dominant male class exercises total control over women's uteruses. It's people like you that make me disinterested in debating people on American political blogs. Or, in other words: the early 20th century is that-a-way!

Jay Tea, you can't say or imply something outrageous and then say that by virtue of the fact that it's an *opinion*, that any detractors ought to fuck off because you aren't making an argument based on first principles. Obviously you're asserting an opinion. And obviously you ought not take umbrage to someone disputing it in this forum, insofar as it's genuinely an open one. My domestic violence analogy holds, and thus your issue with Islam is morally equatable with feminists' issue with men. QED. Find another bogeyman--I recommend current and former Goldman Sachs employees.

Clay: I have never asserted that Christians ought to be accountable for the crimes of the McVeighs of the world. But I have mentioned pieces of shit like him as a reductio ad absurdum of the type of mushy-minded argument that implies the following: a category of crimes have been committed by a category of persons; and thus that category of persons ought to be treated differently in the eyes of the law. You're a lot smarter than most everyone who reads these threads and so I know that you know that I have logic on my side. Logic is antithetical to hysterical anti-Islamic outrage. Christian drunk drivers kill a lot more innocent people every year than anti-Western Islamic fundamentalists.

JL: you don't get to "patch" other people's religions. You can't prevent other people from murdering people for stupid reasons. I'm an atheist and I don't think that there's anything positive to take away from this; so be thankful that as a Christian, you get to defer to heavenly salvation as a justification for evil in this world. I have no such cop-out in my moral repertoire.

I'm an atheist and I don't think that there's anything positive to take away from this; so be thankful that as a Christian, you get to defer to heavenly salvation as a justification for evil in this world. I have no such cop-out in my moral repertoire.

And there YOUR programming kicks in. I ask a question, you assume I'm a Christian and seem to want to make it the reason behind my question.

If I've got a system with WinXP, SP1, and I'm running into problems with it (due to wierdly configured hardware or wonky drivers) is it justifiable to upgrade it to SP3? Or download drivers to fix the problem?

Admittedly, computers aren't people and religions aren't operating systems per se - but there's significant similarities, to my way of thinking. Sorry you don't see it - maybe YOU need to upgrade to Atheism 2.0?

Hyperbolist,
Where are your sources backing up your
accusation of christian drunken drivers
killing more innocent people, than anti
western islamic fundamentalists.

Links if you don't mind.

maggie, fine, be lazy. Took me five seconds to find the numbers you want. Here you go:

http://www.edgarsnyder.com/drunk-driving/statistics.html

Assume that the proportion of those murderers (drunk drivers) who are Christian reflects the overall population. (Probably higher in reality: Muslims don't drink and atheists ride bikes and use public transit. Ha!)

Drunk driving is a much, much bigger threat to innocent life than terrorism in the United States. Not debatable.

JL: I know that you're a Christian because you've said that you are. And yes, I would assume that someone who posts here and appreciates the content rather than picking it apart is likely to be Christian.

I understand your analogy but I think it doesn't work because you can't change someone's religion by legal fiat. Does. Not. Work. You can try but the backlash will be worse than the problems you're trying to rectify. Ignorant, misguided Muslims will continue to kill innocent 'infidels' year in and year out but it's such a rare occurrence that you ought not to worry about it. Life is too short to fret about statistical improbabilities. (Actuarial science as a guide to better living.)