To answer your question - intentional deception, of the kind being practiced by the White House re 'saving and creating' jobs.

Reading your ending about conflating an emergency with 'health care' I couldn't help but be reminded of Thomas Sowell's column from 11-4:

"Like so many clever things that are said, this argument depends on confusing very different things-- namely, "health care" and "medical care." Medical care is a limited part of health care. What we do and don't do in the way we live our lives affects our health and our longevity, in many cases more so than what doctors can do to provide medical care."

The medical care someone received in an emergency is a very small aspect of health care as it relates to the current debate about control over our lives. Those interested can find the column at Townhall.com under columnists and his column of the 4th. It's nice (well, not nice that it took someone having a heart attack) to have such a concrete example of someone making this type of misleading argument, proving the point Sowell just made days ago.

When you start making up numbers it's called LYING. I suppose the Democrats prefer "nuance".

Ignorance, or Intentional Deception?

BOTH!!

How could this peaceful, largely jovial crowd (who must have been tired, since they journeyed from many far away places in buses - hardly luxurious travel) have been characterized in any other way but what they were - honest American citizens exercising their First Amendment rights? I don't get the willful ignorance and mischaracterizations being practiced by some in the elite media.

"columnist Dana Milbank played the usual game of quoting the wackiest signs and smearing thousands of people with them."

The media always did that during the anti-war rallies that featured hundreds of thousands of people. Quick! Find some token anarchist fuckwits and seek to delegitimize the entire crowd by virtue of their existence! So if you're surprised by how they demonize 'tea party' rallies, or whatever these events are called now, by focusing on the fringe idiots among the crowd, then you obviously were not watching television or reading Time/Newsweek/Washington Post from 2002 to Katrina, when it became fashionable among the ruling elites to hate neoconservative failures.

The media in your country is a straight-up travesty. They fetishize 'bipartisanship', misunderstand or despise the grassroots, and the sum total of their collective careers could be described as a ginormous corporatist circle-jerk. Consider their infatuation with John McCain, President Olympia Snowe, Ben Nelson, and Joe Lieberman: pissing off one's own political party gives the Howard Kurtz Kidz all kinds of boners. I have more respect for Loony Tunes Beck than I do for Candy Crowley et al because at least he clearly doesn't give a shit what David Broder thinks.

I have a technical request. Would you PLEASE learn how to re-size images for the Web before posting them here? This post contains five photos of 8MP each. That takes a lot of time to download even on a fiber connection; on slow DSL or dial-up, it's an eternity. Reduce them to, oh, 800x600 pixels before posting, and they'll load in a flash.

Holy Crap! Welcome back Hyper and oh my goodness you hit it on the head with that post! Our country is most difinitely screwed up especially the media and the elite in both entertainment and government.

"The media in your country is a straight-up travesty. They fetishize 'bipartisanship', misunderstand or despise the grassroots, and the sum total of their collective careers could be described as a ginormous corporatist circle-jerk."

Well said.

Wolfwalker,
I apologize. I do know how to resize, but tried first w/o resizing and it came up fine on my computer (no delay and everything looked great). I didn't consider that it might not be the same on everyone else's. I'll resize them and swap out for the ones posted.

Sean Hannity lied and stated that there 20,000 people attending the rally.

Hannity: "20,000 people showed up today." During the November 5 edition of ABC Radio Network's The Sean Hannity Show, Hannity stated, "We announced on Hannity Friday night on the Fox News Channel, we had Congresswoman Michele Bachmann [R-MN] on, and she mentioned that there was going to be on Thursday, she was going to put together in less than a week a little town hall on -- what do you want to call it -- march on our nation's Capitol. And anyway, 20,000 people showed up today."

Hannity: "[W]hat, 20,000 people showed up today." Hannity subsequently stated, "That was Jon Voight, the actor, who on his own heard -- I guess was watching Hannity last Friday -- and heard Congresswoman Michele Bachmann announce that she was going to have this rally today in preparation for what we expect to be a vote on a rare Saturday edition of Congress, and, what, 20,000 people showed up today."

Then he backtracked and scaled his lie down to 5,000.

Hannity: "I heard there was, like, 5,000 people plus there." Toward the end of his radio show, Hannity backtracked from his earlier estimates, responding to a caller's statement that "there was more than 1,000 people here," by stating, "I heard there was, like, 5,000 people plus there."

Capitol police estimate it was 4,000.

Three Capitol Hill police officers all guessed that the crowd numbered at about 4,000. (Here's a wide shot picture of the crowd.)

4,000 is a lot like 20,000 - if you're in the business of reporting lies.

Comparing health care reform to the Holocaust was an especially tasteful move.

I just hope that these rallies and tea parties just keep climbing in intensity until the media has no choice but to cover them. I think for the most part people have to know how out of the way the networks are going to not cover these rallies, or to cast a negative light on them.

the double standard, as usual, is glaring.

the intent, as usual, is obvious.

can we officially declare these people as an extension of the democrat party? can we make the DNC have to declare the hours and dollars spent to prop their candidates up? If conservatives had the numerous news outlets and platforms from which to cover such activities, it would be all over for the democrats. fortunately it seems the tide is turning, slowly but surely.

Fox News mireports the size of the protest and then Republicans capitalize on the lie to rally people to their side.

Congressman Steve King today made the following statement calling on American citizens to come to Washington this weekend to stop a government takeover of health care.

"Nancy Pelosi and Washington liberals cannot ignore what transpired yesterday in Washington. Americans from every state stormed Capitol Hill. They took over the Hill. And they loudly chanted 'Kill this bill!'

Given the actual size of the crowd "they took over the parking lot of a local grocery store" is more accurate.

But let's not suggest that Fox News and the GOP are in cohoots.

Green Steve, I saw video on tv which showed he crowd. If that was not a much larger number than 4k, you are intelligent, and we both know that is not true. Hey Steve, since you are so good at numbers, guess how many fingers I am hold up. Now guess which.

Leave it to Stevie. Don't say anything about the protest or why it's happening. Let's all debate the size of the parking lot.

Real good Stevie. You get a pat on the head from Axelrod for that one?

Dana Milbank gets paid a lot more than Steve Green to do the same things: Lie, distort, spin and distract. Who is fooled?

I don't about where you live Steverino but some of the parking lots in my hometown are pretty damn big.

s green - "Comparing health care reform to the Holocaust was an especially tasteful move."

Let me correct that fer ya: It was a "especially distasteful move."

That said, real cute how you are sucking the hind teat of Think[less] Progress by noting in all liklihood the ONLY sign of that type at the rally.

And BTW, next time stay on topic, or at least comment on the post itself instead of divertiung attention, AND point where and when you condemned all the Bush-Hitler refs in the last 8 years.

Until then STFU

I have to correct the record here because the picture that Steve Green links above is NOT of the full crowd that attended the rally.

It does not show the crowd in front of the Capitol facing the steps/stage. If it was taken during the rally it is of overflow that are on the street (notice the absence of grass under their feet). The picture he links appears to be a picture of a smaller group of people coming from the rally. I was there. Anyone who was there, or anyone who knows what the area looks like or anyone who knows what grass looks like, would know this.

The picture appears to be of a group of people heading toward the Cannon Building to visit the representatives' offices. If you look at the picture I posted (the one that came from Andrea Shea King) you might notice the similarity. Andrea described her picture as a "photo taken from the steps of the Cannon House Office Building of concerned Americans making their way from the rally to call on Pelosi."

The group she took a picture of was just one part of the larger group that split up and flooded the various entrances to the Cannon and other office buildings. When I left the rally yesterday I walked first toward the Cannon Building, but when I saw the throngs of people already lined up and down the street trying to get in realized I did not want to stand in line for an hour so I hung out a while on the grass talking to friends and strangers and taking pictures. Then we started walking up the hill. Each entrance was just as packed with people so we kept walking. I decided to make a visit to the RNC a few blocks up and wait until the lines were not so long. I came back a couple of hours later and was able to get into the building with only a short line, but found the halls were still pretty full of people, especially outside the offices where the representatives actually decided to check in.

I don't know how many people were there total, but thought it was a great turnout considering the very short notice and I know that the picture Steve linked as supposedly a "wide shot picture of the crowd" is actually a picture of a segment of the crowd in front of one building. It appears to me to have been taken after the rally, but I can't say for sure. If that is the case then there were additional groups of people up and down those couple of blocks, as well as some people who were probably still making their way from the Capitol lawn.

To try to claim that picture showed the number of people in attendance at the rally is beyond misleading. Steve blockquoted the Hannity stuff which included the MSNBC picture link, but didn't identify where it was quoted from. Who is trying to pass off that picture as one showing the full rally crowd? (Besides Steve, I mean.) That would be interesting to know. So, Steve, where did that come from?

Lorie I wouldn't worry about Steve's juvenile rants. Never on point and seldom truthful. He is the kind of boy that equates making love to size of tools. Just no correlation.

Now is Steve does want to talk about liars: I will pull out of Iraq. I will support the good war in Afghanistan. I will not allow lobbyist to serve in my adminsitration. I will now sign a bill loaded with earmarks. If we don't pass this stimulus, unemployment will reach 8%. I will have the most transparent administration. I will close Gitmo in one year. All Obama's lies. All real. I could list more but my fingers are tired. So Stevie, is Obama a liar? Or is Hannity? ww

Much better now, Lorie. Thank you.

I love wordsmiths like Lorie that can create a logical picture of why Greenie's wrong.

I prefer my corporate simplicity though - Greenie's a fuck-wit that argues numbers with no comprehension of what they truly mean - kind of like a dog trying to figure out calculus. You could almost picture his little furrowed brow!

I walked around the fringes of the rally yesterday and left about 1:15 pm or so. I never got close enough to see the speakers or even to determine exactly where the stage was. As I was walking away, I came to some elevated ground near the reflecting pool, turned around and spent several minutes trying to estimate the crowd size. The figure I came up with was 8,000 to 15,000, depending on how far the crowd extended to the right (towards the south) where I couldn't see.

"As I was walking away, I came to some elevated ground near the reflecting pool, turned around and spent several minutes trying to estimate the crowd size. The figure I came up with was 8,000 to 15,000, depending on how far the crowd extended to the right (towards the south) where I couldn't see."

Good estimate. I think Your a little on the low side but than again I was not there. Im just doing what the media does and making stuff up.

To Steven F Green-

"And BTW, next time stay on topic, or at least comment on the post itself instead of diverting attention"

Thats not His M.O.... He drops in, starts to drool , starts to quiver, than returns to His circlejerk. Or maybe He never left?

Glad you were able to attend the rally. Thanks for the great write-up and pics. Take tomorrow off--sleep in!

When you start making up numbers it's called LYING. I suppose the Democrats prefer "nuance".

3. Posted by GarandFan | November 6, 2009 3:49 PM

Apparently showing the extent to which Hannity lied about the turnout went WAAAAY over the heads of a lot of people here.

Byrd: "I don't know how many people were there total, but thought it was a great turnout considering the very short notice..."

From Bachmann's November 2 press release calling "on the American People to Bring the Town Hall to Washington":

"This bill is a trillion-dollar, budget-busting, government takeover of our health care system. It will put bureaucrats between people and their health care. It will lead to rationed care, hurting the most vulnerable amongst us first. It will break the bank, leaving our children to pay the bill with diminished freedoms and dwindling prosperity.

"The American people need to stand up again and make sure that Congress hears them this time. Speaker Pelosi is putting her bill on fast track to a vote - and it remains to be seen if the House will even get a chance to vote on the commonsense Republican alternatives. The people need to make a House Call on Washington this week and tell their Representatives to vote no to a government take-over of one-fifth of our economy. This is gangster government at its worst.

"I urge all Americans to come to Washington this Thursday. Come and meet up with your Representative and tell them that you want to control your health care

Fox News was all over this, promoting the event for days.

Fox News' Napolitano: Bachmann "wants your help in the fight." Guest hosting for Glenn Beck on November 4, Fox News judicial analyst Andrew Napolitano stated that Bachmann is "fighting Democrats on the constitutionality..."

Bachman: "[W]e began this on Sean Hannity's show." Also during the November 4 Glenn Beck broadcast, Bachman further detailed her motivations to organize the protest, saying, "what we've done, and we began this on Sean Hannity's show, is just to - the only thing I know to do at this point to kill this bill is to ask and plead for real freedom-loving Americans to come to the steps of the US Capitol tomorrow."

Hannity was "told the crowd is going to be massive ... my only wish is I wish I could be there." Hannity stated on the November 4 edition of his Fox News program, "Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann announced on this program last Friday that at noon tomorrow... - "

Fox News contributor Gingrich pushes protest on twitter. On November 3 Newt Gingrich posted on his twitter feed, "Help stop the gov't take-over of health care. Join the Rally Thursday against Obama/PelosiCare." Gingrich also posted a "Reminder" about the protest on November 4.

Fox & Friends hosted Bachmann, promoted protest details. During the November 3 edition of Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson hosted Bachmann to talk about the protest, gave details of the protest to viewers, and urged viewers to access the program's website for more information on the protest. Carlson stated, "They can go to FoxandFriends.com; we'll link it to your website."

The movement organizers want people to believe that the low turnout was the result of a late announcement. Not true - the low turnout is despite the heavy promotion on Fox News and elsewhere.

Byrd: "I just noticed that I didn't explicitly explain the title of this post, but it is a reference to the intent of those on the left and in the media who have portrayed the tea parties and rallies like the one I attended yesterday as nasty, negative and hate-filled. I don't know if they do so out of ignorance because they have not attended, or because they are determined to intentionally mislead people, but I would encourage anyone who has not been to one of these events to attend and to decide for themselves.

I agree. I think protest is a noble expression of patriotism and encourage anyone to attend protests such as these. I hope my protest of the way in which the size of the crowd has been misreported is seen as my expression of patriotism, but sadly -- we all know that won't be the case.

Steve, Do you ever post anything that gets a positive vote? Dont answer.

"I hope my protest of the way in which the size of the crowd has been misreported is seen as my expression of patriotism, but sadly -- we all know that won't be the case."

Misreported? How the hell do You know? You there? Your encouragement lacks sincerety as does Your judgement.

Puhleeze, Steve. You want a pat on the back for being a patriot for spending all this time and space arguing about whether there were 4,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 people there? Or do you want it for linking a picture supposedly showing the size of the crowd that only showed a tiny fragment of the people in attendance and didn't even show them at the site of the rally? In case I missed it in your most recent comment, did you answer my question about where that link came from? I was able to find the Hannity quotes at Media Matters, but not the link to the picture. I really want to know because that is one of the most misleading things I've seen today.

Not the craziest thing though considering Robert Gibbs' comment about Hitler signs and Obama's "pet goat" moment (which beats Bush's by a mile).

Steve you are dead wrong about the late notice being an excuse for anything, but it should help you to understand why the turnout was so impressive. You might not realize this because you may be more accustomed to liberal rallies, but at conservative rallies most of the attendees have jobs or stay home with their kids.

So, no matter how many times Hannity or Beck or Fox or Rush or Levin or whoever mentioned the rally on air is a moot point. They could have run a non-stop 24/7 loop inviting people to come, but the fact is that 5 days notice is still just 5 days notice. That so many people could get off of work on such short notice, or make arrangements for child care if necessary, or cancel appointments, etc. to travel to DC to attend is very impressive.

It is not just the size of the crowd though, but the intensity of the participants. Andrea Shea King and a couple of her friends left Florida Wednesday evening and drove all night to get there, then turned around and drove back afterward. I met people who had traveled from Ohio and Michigan and North Carolina and South Carolina, Tennessee and Pennsylvania also.

Not only was the crowd impressive considering the short notice, but considering how crappy the economy is. It costs money to drive or fly to DC. If you spend the night you are talking more money. Not to mention parking or cab fare and money to eat while there.

Ask anyone who works for someone in congress. Are they more impressed by 100,000 calls and emails or by 5,000 people who travel in person to their office in DC? The answer should be obvious.

This is all common sense stuff though. That it is harder to get to a rally with 5 days notice than with 14 or 30 is a no brainer.

I guess the libs do have a point though. Since Fox television and Hannity and Beck and Rush and Levin on the radio told people about the event, a lot of people did know about it. That would not have been the case if it had been promoted on MSNBC or Air America. The liberals got that much right.

Lorie, you forgot to mention: Medical personnel from the Capitol physician's office -- an entity that could, quite accurately, be labeled government-run health care -- rushed over, attaching electrodes to his chest and giving him oxygen and an IV drip. By the time it was over, medics had administered government-run health care to at least five people in the crowd who were stricken as they denounced government-run health care. As far as I can tell, neither the conservative lawmakers or the far-right protestors actually voiced opposition to the government health care services, or called on the elimination of the Capitol physician's office. Government-run health care -- the scourge the Republicans assembled to denounce -- may be poised to contribute to the end of Western civilization, but it can also apparently be pretty helpful and effective.

Probably just an over looked thing that didn't matter, right?

Mr.Green,
Unless you personally were there, your calling
others liars is like living in a glass house and throwing rocks.
That is not patriotism.

Yes Steve, you're truly a patriot in the mold of Patrick Henry, Joshua Chamberlain, and Nick Roe.

We salute your sacrifice and patriotism.

Byrd: "Puhleeze, Steve. You want a pat on the back for being a patriot for spending all this time and space arguing about whether there were 4,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 people there?"

No, I didn't ask for a pat on the back. I merely pointed out that protest takes many forms, and I applaud patriotic protest, as it seems you do as well.

I just find it odd that there is such a body of misreporting around the latest failure of the tea party movement. Bachman and Fox News tried to rally the troops, and failed miserably.

As an aside, NY-23 also showed that the social conservative "tea party" movement has sputtered dramatically and does not have the 'sway' its leaders want you to believe it has.

And now the Bachman protest is another example of that.

Reality aside, for Fox News to over report on the size of the crowd by a factor of 500% is a gross bit of... well, lying. It's just that simple.

I thought someone who wrote the headline "Ignorance or Intentional Deception?" would welcome a discussion that actually addressed the topic suggested by that headline.

JC,
That is one of the most despicable comments
you've made at Wizbang.
A time of extreme emergency, and you politicize
it?
Why don't you just fall on your sword...

Steve Green,
Apparently you were not there. Yet you continue
to call those who attended liars.
If you think being insidious with your play on
words will fix that, you're mistaken.
If you think calling those who made the effort
to attend and protest as losers, you're also wrong on that point.
It ain't over yet bub.

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You are way over the line,

Sorry, I promise never to use the word foreskin again.

The verdict is in - it was intentional deception on the part of the right wing Fox News organization in misreporting the size of the crowd.

Hannity has been caught and outed as a liar.

He since has admitted they used the wrong footage, but so far he has refused to address the lie about the size of the crowd.

"My friend Zan and I met up with Dan ehl and Mary Katharine Ham after the rally and we talked about how positive and peaceful the event had been."

Yikes, that must have been some beer binge I was on that day. I don't even remember being there. I must have thought I was at a pro-nationalized health care plan.

Dan Ehl