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Patrick Kennedy banned from Communion? (UPDATED)

Associated Press:

Roman Catholic Bishop Thomas Tobin has banned Rep. Patrick Kennedy from receiving Communion, the central sacrament of the church, in Rhode Island because of the congressman's support for abortion rights, Kennedy said in a newspaper interview published Sunday.

The decision by the outspoken prelate, reported on The Providence Journal's Web site, significantly escalates a bitter dispute between Tobin, an ultra orthodox bishop, and Kennedy, a son of the nation's most famous Roman Catholic family.

"The bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan priests not to give me Communion," Kennedy told the paper in an interview conducted Friday.

Kennedy said the bishop had explained the penalty by telling him "that I am not a good practicing Catholic because of the positions that I've taken as a public official," particularly on abortion.

He declined to say when or how Tobin told him not to take the sacrament. And he declined to say whether he has obeyed the bishop's injunction.

The paper said the bishop's spokesman declined to address the question of whether he had told Kennedy not to receive Communion. But the bishop's office cast doubt on Kennedy's related assertion about instructions to state priests.

"Bishop Tobin has never addressed matters relative to public officials receiving Holy Communion with pastors of the diocese," spokesman Michael K. Guilfoyle told the paper in an e-mailed statement.

Kennedy did not return messages left on his cell phone by The Associated Press, and his staff refused to make the congressman available for comment. Tobin's spokesman told the AP that the bishop would not comment on the issue.

Church law permits Tobin to ban Kennedy from receiving Communion within the Diocese of Providence, which covers Rhode Island, but he cannot stop Kennedy from receiving Communion elsewhere. It was unclear whether bishops overseeing Washington and Massachusetts, where Kennedy's family has a seaside compound, would issue similar bans.

Thoughts?

Crossposted(*).

UPDATE: Bishop Tobin has issued a public response:

I am disappointed and really surprised that Congressman Patrick Kennedy has chosen to reopen the public discussion about his practice of the faith and his reception of Holy Communion. This comes almost two weeks after the Congressman indicated to local media that he would no longer comment publicly on his faith or his relationship with the Catholic Church. The Congressman's public comments require me to reply.

...

I am disappointed that the Congressman would make public my pastoral and confidential request of nearly three years ago that sought to provide solely for his spiritual well-being.

I have no desire to continue the discussion of Congressman Kennedy's spiritual life in public. At the same time, I will absolutely respond publicly and strongly whenever he attacks the Catholic Church, misrepresents the teachings of the Church, or issues inaccurate statements about my pastoral ministry.

As I wrote to the Congressman in February of 2007, and repeated in my public letter earlier this month, I am willing and even anxious to meet with him, to discuss these matters. My door remains open. However, it should be absolutely clear the Congressman himself has once again chosen to make this discussion a matter of public record.

In the meantime, I will continue to pray - sincerely and fervently - for his conversion and repentance, and for his personal and spiritual well-being. I wish him well.


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Comments (49)

Finally. Somebody grew a s... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

Finally. Somebody grew a spine among the clergy. If kennedy new anything about his faith, he would have been abstaining all along and nobody would have to have told him publically to not receive Communion unworthily.

What took the church so lon... (Below threshold)

What took the church so long to stop rolling over for Kennedys?

The Kennedy family has been... (Below threshold)
GianiD:

The Kennedy family has been one of the worst 'Catholic' families ever.

Why not just boot up out of the church, Im sure Rev Wright would welcome them w/ open arms.

#1,2,3I agree comp... (Below threshold)
Eneils Bailey:

#1,2,3

I agree completely. It is about time for some General in The Catholic church to ban the whole drunken, drug-taking, and holier-than-thou lot of them.

So the Kennedy's don't own ... (Below threshold)
Madalyn:

So the Kennedy's don't own the church after all. Imagine that. With the crimes of murder, infidelity, DUI, etc within the kennedy clan, it's about time someone stood up and said NO.
Madalyn

Its all about money. The C... (Below threshold)
epador:

Its all about money. The Church figured out rather belatedly that the Kennedy's couldn't make up for millions in losses they are sustaining from their base. Especially on the abortion issue, which has gained traction, according to polls.

But hey, I'm just a surly curmudgeon.

The problem I have is that ... (Below threshold)
Montgomery:

The problem I have is that they had to wait until all of the powerful Kenedy's are dead to grow some stones. Pathetic, and very telling.

#6Yes, the Catholic ... (Below threshold)
Eneils Bailey:

#6
Yes, the Catholic church is not completely blameless for their failing situation. If they would have never left their basic tenets they would be much better off.

If Patrick Kennedy is so en... (Below threshold)
MarkJ:

If Patrick Kennedy is so enamored of murdering the innocent unborn, he can always convert to Islam.

That should make for some interesting dinner table discussions at Kennedy family reunions.

The bishop is doing Kennedy... (Below threshold)

The bishop is doing Kennedy a favor.

From the catechism of the Catholic Church:

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

and

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.

Kennedy is in a position of authority and by adopting a position gravely contrary to the teachings of the Church is scandalizing Catholics. This is a mortal sin. Moreover, as St Paul taught, we are not to approach the Eucharist unworthily---we are to go to Confession first to be absolved of our sins. To do otherwise is to "eat and drink our own damnation."

The bishop is not trying to score political points here. He's trying to save Kennedy's soul, and those of Catholics who admire the Kennedys.

We Catholics know we have s... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

We Catholics know we have some really, really poor shepherds at the front of the herd. But time is slowly taking them out, naturally, and a new crop of true shepherds are being made bishops.

The poor shepherds (I call them UnBelievers because they truly behave as if they personally do not believe the tenets of the Faith) are the ones who are beholden to the rich and who concern themselves with the money and power.

But there are small points of light that orthodox Catholics can look to for help. These lights are Bruskowitz, Chaput and others who are not afraid to speak the Truth to any and all. I am grateful for them, though they are small in number.

So what does "Patches" want... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

So what does "Patches" want? Sympathy? I can tell him between which two words he'll find it in the dictionary.

Fairly entertaining having ... (Below threshold)
Imhotep:

Fairly entertaining having a "child toucher" tell a member of the flock they are no longer worthy of communion because of a long held and practized belief of said member of the flock.

This is not a "new position" from Mr. Kennedy, but it IS a change in the way the church treats him.

The real story is "why has the church changed it's position on Mr Kennedy?".

Imhotep....I realize you're... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

Imhotep....I realize you're just a deified egyptian mortal from 4600 years ago, which explains a lot actually, but are you saying that Bishop Tobin has been accused of pedophilia? If not you should retract that statement.

And I know it takes more effort which is kind of a drag, but it helps when you understand the difference between "the Church" and its members, or "the Church" and its clergymen.

"The Church" didn't change anything. A strong, courageous (in this climate) and maybe even fearless priest (technically-bishop, though he started as a priest) spoke the Truth, a Truth that Kennedy himself probably already knew. It is a logical consequence of his behavior. Liberals really don't like logical consequences so they just ignore them and do what they want to anyway.

I seriously doubt Kennedy will refrain from presenting himself at the altar for Communion, public condemnation by his bishop or not.

If I were Kennedy, my only ... (Below threshold)
tas:

If I were Kennedy, my only reply would be, "What, I can't receive communion from child rapists anymore? Aw shucks."

Tobin is an ass. It is the... (Below threshold)
Bubba:

Tobin is an ass. It is the individual's assessment of his own soul that determines, and should determine, whether he takes the sacrament.

"Tobin is an ass. It is the... (Below threshold)
sue:

"Tobin is an ass. It is the individual's assessment of his own soul that determines, and should determine, whether he takes the sacrament."

Not according to the Catholic Church.

Kennedy is making PUBLIC statements about supporting abortion as a Catholic. That makes it very much the Catholic Church's business.

The Church is biting off it... (Below threshold)
me2me2:

The Church is biting off its nose to spite its face. We should be giving support and love to a defender of the poor and oppressed.

To the idiots here... (Below threshold)
retired military:

To the idiots here

Posters number 13, 15, and 16 should take heed.

The Catholic church is clear on abortion and clear on the matter of communion.

Ref post 15

" is the individual's assessment of his own soul that determines, and should determine, whether he takes the sacrament"

This is a ridiculous statement. Why then do Catholics go to confession? Why if a priest does not provide absolution for a mortal sin (ie Abortion) is that person forbidden from going to communion?

If the above statement were true then why pray tell would a Bishop even tell a person they were forbidden from going to communion since if the statement were right it were up to the individual.

Throwing charges of child abuse back up is ridiculous as well. Was this bishop involved in any way with that scandal? Why not paint all teachers with a scarlet letter when one teacher is accused of child abuse. How about policemen? How about grandparents?

Just becuase folks from the ManBoy love association whose motto is "sex before 8 or it is too late" support democratic politicians does that mean that everyone who supports democratic politics believe in that same motto?

You throw up red herrings knowingly, willfully and ignorantly.


I take it you know nothing ... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

I take it you know nothing of the Catholic Faith, eh Bubba?

retired military: They do ... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

retired military: They do it because it's easy, and it requires little to no thought. And they relish the thought of helping, in even the smallest of ways, to bring down any person or institution that they think tells them what to do.

Unless it's a democrat-run government.

Defending the word of GOD i... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Defending the word of GOD is not a choice for the Bishop. It is what it is. One of the original ten commandments. Plain and simple. ww

To 20, one of the idiots he... (Below threshold)
tas:

To 20, one of the idiots here.

All I'm saying is that the Catholic Church -- especially a diocese in New England -- is chucking rocks from a mighty big glass house.

I'm not sure what other intent Tobin has beyond politics. I can walk into my old RI church and take communion anytime I want, despite the fact I've drifted away from the flock in my adult life. And there's a lot of believers in those pews who are for abortion rights, yet Tobin doesn't target any of them. Why?

I'm not exactly a fan of Patches either. I've actually voted for for a couple of his Republican opponents before (I'll admit that voting GOP over Patrick is easier when you know the Republican will always lose in that race anyways), but Tobin's decree has less to do with abortion and more to do with sticking it to the Kennedy's. It's political, and as a a part of untaxed organized religion, the diocese should not play a role in politics for any side.

I think God can defend Hims... (Below threshold)
914:

I think God can defend Himself.

As for the blue gill.. He obviously has uncle pickles liver.., Lets just hope He has no one with when He decides to wash up at 3am.

Tas, If I publicly endorse ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Tas, If I publicly endorse something against Church doctrine, and try to use my Catholic faith or position in said faith as a prop for secular advancement, I'd be told not to take communion as well.
The rule is that as a Catholic, when you are "bad", you are supposed to abstain from communion until you have made it right (confession and pennance). If a Catholic takes communion anyway and it comes to a priests attention, said priest is supposed to turn him away. Pretty simple.
Priests don't go looking for people to refuse. But when someone takes out a metaphorical billboard that says "I am a Catholic, and I endorse killing babies" it gets to the point where it can't be ignored.
The real shocker is that more "Bad Catholics" in public life aren't similarly treated. And that is disapointing, this weakening of the Church in favor of going along to get along. Sweeping gay pedophile priests under the rug rather than deal with the problems head on is just another aspect of this rot in parts of the American branch of the Catholic church, IMO.

TasYou can take co... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Tas

You can take communion at any time. You are correct. The question is are you supposed to if you are a true follower of Catholic faith.

The answer in your case and Kennedys that unless they have been to confession and been forgiven for their sins then they are not supposed to and as such the communion really has no meaning other than a wafer of bread.

Yes the church IMO can be a bit stronger in this area but that doesnt change the fact that if you CALL yourself Catholic than you should follow the tenets of the Catholic faith.

And yes a Bishop or even a priest can withhold communion from you if they feel that you are not supposed to receive it. Will they do it is a question of another matter. An example here would be a priest not providing absution to someone and they appear for communion at the next mass. The priest is well within his right to withhold communion from that person.

If you are going to call yourself a Catholic than follow the tenets of the faith otherwise you are simply stating that the religous beliefs of the Catholic faith have no meaning for you and you might as well say you are a follower of The rock timbukto.

Oh look one of the kennedy ... (Below threshold)
Flu-Bird:

Oh look one of the kennedy brats has been banned from communion whats he going to do have the church replaced with a topless bar?

The Church is opposed to ar... (Below threshold)
John:

The Church is opposed to artificial contraception, also. Is he going to deny Communion to those who support contraception? Let alone those who actually practice it (as far as I know, Kennedy himself has not gotten an abortion).

Those who think this is a religious statement and Tobin "growing a spine" are funny.

JohnTo my knowledg... (Below threshold)
retired military:

John

To my knowledge the church has not come out and said that contraception is a sin. I could be wrong. I know that the church does not condone contraception but that is far from calling contraception an intrisic evil and calling it murder as it does abortion.

Preventing a pregnancy is not nearly as bad as killing an unborn child to end one.

For those that arent catholic there are 2 basic categories of sins. Venal and Mortal. If Contraception is considered a sin I am sure that it is considered a venal sin. Abortion, assisting in an abortion, and supporting abortion is and always has been a mortal sin.

It's quite a challenge to k... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

It's quite a challenge to keep a charitable heart (and a civil tongue) in the presence of such a puerile approach to this situation, demonstrated by some of those commenting.

Tobin did not "grow a spine", he's always demonstrated a backbone as a priest and now a bishop. He was appointed in 2005 to this diocese. Within 2 years he PRIVATELY discussed with Kennedy the peril that his eternal soul was in due to his formal cooperation in protecting abortion, a moral evil. If he wanted to be political, he would have done so publically at the time, but he did not. It doesn't appear to be in his nature to do such a thing. He is one of the Believers. Not like Mahoney or Law. He is a true shepherd.

You cannot call yourself Catholic, let's be honest, if you practice behaviors that are opposed to catholic teaching. If a Catholic procures an abortion, or uses artificial contraception THEY are putting themselves outside the Faith. The bishop doesn't have to personally inform them, it's a fait accompli when they make that choice.

It's nonsensical to me to go to Mass, and receive Communion in this case. You cannot choose sin, refuse to repent, and seek out the Blessed Sacrament worthily. If you receive Communion in such a condition, and do so out of defiance or whatever (anything other than ignorance), you compound the damage to your soul.

To a Believing Catholic, this isn't semantics, this isn't some game where you dare the priest to deny you Communion, and if he doesn't, ha-ha, you win! To a Believing Catholic this is deadly serious matter.

That Kennedy went public with this private ministering from the Bishop is also bizarre and says a lot, to me, about him and nothing good.

retired military: This is ... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

retired military: This is what Father Albright from www.catholicforum.com says about artificial contraception and mortal sin....

"The Church clearly teaches that the use of artificial birth control/contraception for the purpose of preventing pregnancy, whether within or outside Marriage, is always wrong. This is because the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital act cannot be separated, as the marital act is simultaneously an expression of both essential goods of Marriage: the unity and holiness of the spouses, and the procreation and education of children. This is grave matter since it deals with the Sacrament of Marriage and generation of new life. So, to do so with understanding and willingly is a mortal sin. Unless one goes to confession, having a mortal sin on one's conscience is a barrier to authentic communion with Christ and so one may not receive the Eucharist."

Repentance and a resolve to no longer commit this sin is necessary as well, to reinstate yourself with God through His Church.

From the article, I gather ... (Below threshold)
Grace:

From the article, I gather that Kennedy opened this most recent debate. He had been warned with love and respect that his actions were a danger to himself. By his bringing it into the public forum, the Bishop was forced to reply in the same public forum rather than to have his actions and words twisted by Rep. Kennedy

In a nutshell, if the group you belong to has rules, you need to obey the rules. In the case of a Christian faith group, we all recognize that we are sinners trying to become better persons and follow the teachings of Jesus. It does NOT mean we are perfect, but when you are instructed by a leader of the group where you are in error, and endangering your soul, you best take heed.

As a non-Roman Catholic, I find it interesting how the comments criticizing the Church are mostly uninformed and some even downright nasty. Those who most likely belong to this particular faith group are knowledgeable and reasoned.

Too bad that thoughtful, articulate and reasoned arguments sometimes just can't quite get through to those who cannot think.

I agree with #27 n27 and h1... (Below threshold)
914:

I agree with #27 n27 and h1n1 27

"Oh look one of the kennedy brats has been banned from communion whats he going to do have the church replaced with a topless bar"

No he'll just bring some snorklers with Him when He braves the deeps!

To my knowledge the chur... (Below threshold)
John:

To my knowledge the church has not come out and said that contraception is a sin. I could be wrong.

You are wrong. Very wrong. So wrong, in fact, that it's hard to believe you could be a Catholic without knowing that.

If Contraception is considered a sin I am sure that it is considered a venal sin.

And you are wrong again. Two for two!

Given that, I'm assuming you're prepared to fully stand behind your post #26, right?

If you are going to call yourself a Catholic than follow the tenets of the faith otherwise you are simply stating that the religous beliefs of the Catholic faith have no meaning for you and you might as well say you are a follower of The rock timbukto.

I'd be interested to know if you a) have never used artificial contraception, b) have never accepted Communion due to its use, or c) enjoy worshiping a rock.

Those who most likely be... (Below threshold)
John:

Those who most likely belong to this particular faith group are knowledgeable and reasoned.

Except when they're based on complete nonsense and ignorance of their own faith. But I can see that doesn't fit your little preconceived comment sorter (critical = uninformed, supportive = knowledgeable).

"You are wrong. Very wrong.... (Below threshold)
914:

"You are wrong. Very wrong. So wrong, in fact, that it's hard to believe you could be a Catholic without knowing that"

What is a catholic?

As a Catholic, I am delight... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

As a Catholic, I am delighted so many outside the Church are interested in our faith, and I invite you all to investigate further.

As a matter of brotherly guidance, I might advise you to refrain from expressing authoritative statements about Church doctrine - at least until you make Bishop, mmmkay?

One of the Catholic Church's little quirks is that doctrine is not determined by internet opinion polls. Another is that we do not get to pick and choose which doctrines and beliefs of the Church we will accept and practice and which we will ignore. It's pretty much an all or nothing deal as far as the major tenets go, and life is about as major as they get.

Now, discussion within the proper channels is allowed and encouraged, but the existing doctrines carry full effect until such time as amended by competent authority. We are all sinners, and we all will sin again, given our human condition, but reconciliation and absolution presume true repentance.

Kennedy is out there saying - nay, trumpeting, championing, pushing with a greater fervor than he ever publicly pushed for any Church doctrine - that abortion, which the Church considers murder, deliberate killing, is not only not a sin and a crime, but should be available upon demand and subsidized by the taxpayers, including those who consider it murder.

The Bishop sent him a private letter years ago, which Kennedy has only now decided to publicize for whatever reasons. Kennedy can legally disclose the pastoral advice he received, but that doesn't make it a matter for public discussion.

Johnref post 34</p... (Below threshold)
retired military:

John

ref post 34

I have never used condoms nor has my wife of 21 years ever used birth control since her conversion to Catholisim.

Sorry I havent kept up with things in the area of contraception. It hasnt really affected me in very very long. My wife had to get a hysterectamine (spelling) years ago.

From a quick google I can see that the Church considers contraception a sin. As I stated above I could be wrong about my previous statement.

It seems I was.


BTW JohnI follow m... (Below threshold)
retired military:

BTW John

I follow my faith as closely as I can (yes I still sin), if I find out something is a sin then yes I do avoid that behavoir if at all possible. But as I stated I do sin (as does everyone). I go to confession, receive absolution and go from there.

Kennedy knows that abortion is a sin and yet continues to support it. He shows no remorse for his sins and as such has been told by the Bishop he may not receive communion.

One of the key aspects of confession is remorse for having sinned.

But since you are such an expert on Catholic doctrine you already knew that correct?


BTW for John and others who... (Below threshold)
retired military:

BTW for John and others who wish to use contraception as a hammer to beat Catholics up by.

Since you know that contraception is a sin (in accordance with Catholic teachings) you must therefore realize abortion is also a sin (in accordance with Catholic teachings).

So therefore Kennedy should not go to communion until he goes to confession and shows remorse for his sins and try to not sin again.

In other words you prove the Bishop's point beautifully.

retired military and SCSIwu... (Below threshold)
tas:

retired military and SCSIwuzzy:

Bishops and priests can withhold communion from those they feel are unworthy, yes, but in the instance of Patrick Kennedy, they are playing politics with the issue. To my knowledge, the Church has not withheld communion from other (namely non-famous) parishioners for the same reason. I'll grant that I haven't done heavy research into the issue, but my Mom is still active in the Rhode Island churches and I'd think she would tell me about this. (She likes launching into tenuous political discussions with me sometimes, wherein I try avoiding the issue with a lot of "Yes Mom"'s).

Anyways, in my view the Church is playing politics. I'm also a bit offended by a body that tries preaching moral values but had a decades long child molestation scandal they tried hiding under the rug. Sure the Kennedy clan has sins which should be criticized for their sins (though if you're going to hold a DUI to Patrick as another reason why he should be excommunicated, if you applied that standard to all Catholics the only people filling those pews would be little old ladies and a couple random dudes), but if you hold a gun to my head and ask me to support a man who accidentally killed a woman or an organization which purposely hid child molesters within its ranks, I'm afraid I'll throw in with the former.

taz, the "organization" as ... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

taz, the "organization" as you call it is held together by beliefs. Part of those beliefs are that sexual abuse of anyone is a sin. The priests who molested sinned against the Faith, the beliefs, the teachings, God, the children and themselves. The Church has never defended their sins.

The Church is in the "business" of mercy and saving souls. Some of the higher ranked clergy, something like 2/3 of the current bishops (that number may have changed) conflated their mercy as priests with the fear of scandal and dealt inappropriately with the pedophile priests. Thankfully much of that came into the light and was exposed. Some of those bishops (several who are gay) compounded the sin of the pedophiles and intentionally covered up the scandal. This reaction became systemic within the Church. Again, by the grace of God this was revealed and exposed.

The point of the Faith is to seek guidance as we walk The Path. As a Catholic we are given markers that keep us on the path, if we choose to willingly follow this path. We stumble and fall, but we are urged to get up again and try to get back on the Path.

You can go to Confession to seek absolution, but if you don't truly believe and accept that what you are doing is a sin and intend to stop doing it, there's really no point in going to Confession at all. It doesn't "work" if you don't truly accept that the Church you claim membership in, and the deposit of Faith which makes up the belief system within it, hold the Truth about God and Jesus and how He works in your life. A believing Catholic knows that the Church is authoritative rather than being authoritarian. We seek out our Faith to make sense of our world and to find ways to avoid sin. Sin always results in misery, unhappiness and ultimately death.

It's not about empty pews of the sinless, it's about being filled to the rafters with sinners trying to live a life led by Jesus Christ. Authentically. The Church is universal, it is meant for everyone, but you have to choose it freely. If you do choose it, then live your Faith and don't play games. Make the effort to live it with authenticity.

Tas"Anyways, in my v... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Tas
"Anyways, in my view the Church is playing politics. I'm also a bit offended by a body that tries preaching moral values but had a decades long child molestation scandal they tried hiding under the rug"

That scandal is over and done. You are convicting the church for things which members of the church did.

There is a difference between church doctrine and members of the church. You know this.

As I stated above. Since MANBLA states "sex before 8 or it is too late" and MANBLA is decidely liberal does this mean that all liberals believe this ? Of course not.

I abhor the molestation scandal but I also realize that it was people who were sinning and not the church at fault.

I honestly feel that the Church should come out with a blanket statement that says "any politician who supports abortion is to not receive any sacraments except confession" PERIOD.

I feel that the clergy are hurting the church by taking the soft road they have taken to date.

The church has taken measures to address the abuse scandal. Yet again, I dont here you condemning the school system because teachers have been convicted and scandals have been covered up.

I personally have a very good friend who is a priest who was falsely accused of molestation by some people who it turned out were just trying to get money out of the church. I was an altar boy for this priest when I was a boy. Yet you hear nothing in the papers about the falsely accused do you? It isnt in the liberal agenda or the MSM (arent they the same) to talk about those cases.

TazIf the molestat... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Taz

If the molestation scandal had never happened what would you choose to condemn the church for?

The horrors that happened during the Crusades?

I have some friends who still bring that up.

I apologize to John, becaus... (Below threshold)
SAHMmy:

I apologize to John, because I was the first person to refer to Tobin as "growing a spine". I did, in fact, say that in my original comment, but in checking out Tobin (he is not my bishop) I discovered that he's always had backbone.

So therefore Kennedy sho... (Below threshold)
John:

So therefore Kennedy should not go to communion until he goes to confession and shows remorse for his sins and try to not sin again.

In other words you prove the Bishop's point beautifully.

There's nothing to "prove". The bishop stated a position, and you generalized it to a level that even you yourself don't agree with. The only thing I proved is that.

JohnWhat point of ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

John

What point of the Bishop's did I say I didnt agree with?

You are the one generalizing.

The Bishop stated Kennedy should not go to communion until this matter is settled in accordance with Church beliefs.

Period.

The issue of contraception is a red herring which you want to beat Catholics over the head with but as I said. As has been stated above articifical contraception (ie condoms) are a sin. Kennedy knows that abortion is a sin. He knows that per Church doctrine he should not go to communion while he supports it.

You are either part of the religion or not. You are either a practising Catholoc or not. You cant call yourself a practising Catholic and only follow some of the doctrines of the faith.


Remember this is the same k... (Below threshold)
Firebird:

Remember this is the same kennedy brat who said opposing gun control is insane comming from someone who can afford armed guards 24/7

But the Kennedy's think the... (Below threshold)
poptoy:

But the Kennedy's think they are special. Don't they. Other than Miss Rose and Kathleen, the rest of them can go straight to hell. Follow Ted.




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