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Democrats get their 60

Governance by bribery:

We'll be blunt. The 'health care reform' legislation under consideration in the Senate is the most corrupt piece of legislation in our nation's history. Yes, we understand that is a strong statement and there have been other abominations throughout our nation's life. But never before did corrupt legislation threaten to radically and forever change the live's of every American.

Exhibit A is the outright bribe extracted by Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Corn Huckster State) from Sen. Harry Reid. As a result of Nelson's performance in his role of Hamlet in the health care deliberations, we will have two health care systems in this country; one for Nebraska and one for the other 49 states.

In its quixotic attempt to ensure everyone has health insurance, the Reid legislation greatly expands Medicaid eligibility. Because Medicaid is a program whose costs are split between the federal and state governments, this expansion in eligibility raise costs dramatically for states. States will be forced to either raise taxes or cut other services to accommodate the forced increase in Medicaid spending.

Unless that state is Nebraska.

Remember the soaring words during the Presidential campaign, the oratory promising to end corruption, all the flowery rhetoric describing how the Democrats would restore trust and integrity in Government?

How's all that working for you now America?

Crossposted(*).


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Comments (53)

Well, since THAT'S the way ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Well, since THAT'S the way they are playing this sick game...
Maybe every other Senator who was going to vote yes should say 'Waitaminute ... I'm changing my vote to 'no' unless MY state gets some big concessions too'.

Seriously, if your Senator is voting yes, you better call his office and demand that you get a bunch of free shit like the other holdouts.

Cloward-Piven this proposal into the dirt.

Harry got his state exempt ... (Below threshold)
kathie:

Harry got his state exempt or reduced, Schumer got to keep Medicare Advantage, just wait until all the bribes come out, this is the tip of the iceburg.

How many more senators are ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

How many more senators are going to get on the bandwagon for several years of federal funding for their medicade programs?

And this is going to be 'deficit neutral'? Hahahahaha!

I believe anyone who though... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

I believe anyone who thought Nelson could not be bought was foolish. There were times that I thought the rush to healthcare reform was stopped dead in its tracks for a more deliberate approach. I became aware how foolish I was when it became apparent that some effort - any effort, no matter how bad - has to be enacted so that the journey to complete government control of health care could be initiated. Plant the seed now and return how ever often one can to nurture it when the political situation permits. The majority of Americans do not trust that the current initiative is a good one yet we will have to watch the Democrats applaud themselves during the President's State of the Union address for developing a program of healthcare reform that only a small minority of people outside that chamber might be able to develop some enthusiasm for. It is almost too surreal to believe. For all the demonizing Democrats like to bestow on Republicans (and the Republicans are nothing to write home about either), the true enemy within is the statists in the Democrat Party.

Time for Texas to secede.</... (Below threshold)
TexBob:

Time for Texas to secede.

Ok, so everyone (real Ameri... (Below threshold)
Lisa:

Ok, so everyone (real Americans) are mad about what these criminals are doing. So what are we going to do about it?? Have another march on Washington? Vote them all out and demand newly electeds repeal this crap? What's next people, what's next? It's time to shut this country down until they understand we refuse to be a nation of serfs. Do we have enough real freedom loving men and women to take this country back? Or are we all just going to keep telling everyone how upset we are that this has happened? The time for shock is over, the time for real action has come. Find your nearest Patriot organization, Tea Party, etc and get busy getting real Americans back into Congress. NOW!!

It will be little satisfact... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

It will be little satisfaction seeing marginally elected Democrat senators and representatives get retirement notices in 2010 unless this legislation can be rescinded.

Thanks to them you can kiss a larger percentage of your paycheck going to fedco and NO benefit coming back.

Welcome to the Socialist Peoples Republic comrades!

They had to cut the "absolu... (Below threshold)

They had to cut the "absolutely essential" 'public option'...they had to chop into their "absolutely essential" abortion benefits...

What exactly is left in this thing? Half a trillion in Medicare cuts to bribe a few senators and the death panel?

Another Democrat sells out ... (Below threshold)
donw:

Another Democrat sells out his country, constituents, constitution and the citizen's freedoms - all in one swoop!
Just like the "Global Warming/Climate Change" scam, this will come back to haunt Democrats big time.
Sold out the country for a momemtary chance at saving his re-election.
Are their any politicians left with an ounce of integrity?
Use this Christmas to explain to your children and Grandchildren what has happened to their futures.
Sold out by Barack Hussein Obama and his goose stepping Obamatrons.

It'll pass just fine. It'll... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

It'll pass just fine. It'll work just fine. And all of you will continue to look like scared, ignorant little morons who believe the sky is always falling because your radio gods tell you so.

Get minds of your own. This is part of the reason you're in the minority.

Republicans need to run on ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Republicans need to run on repealing this thing. If Obama will not sign the repeal laws, defund it.

"Get minds of your own. Thi... (Below threshold)
Michael:

"Get minds of your own. This is part of the reason you're in the minority."

Not much longer assclown...2010 is going to be your Waterloo...read the polls and weep...they are just going to get worse.

Things will always be 'just... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

Things will always be 'just fine' for the cockroaches who raid others' kitchens in the dead of night. The rest of us are going to suffer.

"Get minds of your own. Thi... (Below threshold)
Carol:

"Get minds of your own. This is part of the reason you're in the minority."

Ah, yes, Steve is parroting the liberal talking point. If you don't AGREE with us, then YOU need to get a mind of your own. Once you get a mind of your own then you'll agree with us. (huh? illogical concept, but that's the libs for you.)

I have a mind of my own, and I use it. If as you declare I don't have a mind of my own then that must be projection on your part.

Steve get a mind of your own./s

SteveP is an assclown sockp... (Below threshold)
914:

SteveP is an assclown sockpuppeting bootlicker in Barry's Third Reich.

Logrolling and political de... (Below threshold)
James H:

Logrolling and political dealmaking is nothing new. Good for Nelson if he got a deal for his home state.

Gangsters.... (Below threshold)
davidt:

Gangsters.

SteveP:"It'll pass j... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

SteveP:
"It'll pass just fine. It'll work just fine."

It's just so darn tough to be as complacent as you, Steve.

Your comments on this please:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-health-care-bill-no-one-can-see/

ZR: "Republicans need to ru... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

ZR: "Republicans need to run on repealing this thing. If Obama will not sign the repeal laws, defund it."

Yep. But if it passes, It won't take effect for a couple years. Once it does, it will never be repealed. It will have to be stopped in the next one or two years.

This bill still needs to be... (Below threshold)
John S:

This bill still needs to be reconciled with the bill that the communists in the House wrote. And even if a version is signed into law, the Dems will lose 100 seats in November, so Bambi will need the Republican Congress to approve his new taxes -- won't happen.

Finally, long before 2012, given the administration's printing up to $30 billion a DAY out of thin air, the U.S. government will go broke and be forced to default on its current Social Security and Medicare debts. This new monstrosity can never be funded.

1 AM votes, back room deal... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

1 AM votes, back room deals.

It is a proven fact that Evil will Increase in Direct Proportion to the Preaching of the Lie. If Good men do nothing to restrain the effects of evil, it will inevitably triumph over all men. Evil is done in darkness. It Cannot stand the Light of Day. Exposed it will either lash out or run and hide. However exposing evil requires Virtue and Courage, because it is always costly to do so. Whether the evil be Political or Religious, it will despise anyone who shines the Light of Truth.
The fireworks start soon
Here's hoping Sen. Nelson g... (Below threshold)
Peter F.:

Here's hoping Sen. Nelson gets a lump of coal--that smells suspiciously like a turd--in his stocking.

It really does irritate me ... (Below threshold)
Burt:

It really does irritate me when our congress critters use the tax dollars I send them to buy votes to raise my taxes.

Bribery, Corruption, and un... (Below threshold)
Deke:

Bribery, Corruption, and under the table deal making, have been the norm for Congress for a very long time, take some time to look up the going's on in the house following the civil war, that defined corruption. The difference between then and now is the blatent openess of the bribe/cajole process and the fact that in the past such deals did not effect such a large majority of Americans.

This will be the 5th HUGE entitlement hoisted on the American ppl, the others being, SS, Medicaid, Medicare, and Welfare, a burden on the taxpayers that make us the most heavily taxed country in the free world, you must remember that though Euro's income tax is up to 40% in some places, they don't acct for all the state, sales, property and other taxes and fees we pay that, in some states, equals more than 50% of income.

We can blame the Democrats, Congress, etc., all we want but the bottom line is the blame lies squarely at the feet of the American people. We are sheeple, we are complacent in front of our LCD t.v.'s, our yearly vacations and our kids t-ball games. Do the power holders make it easy on us, you bet they do, taking the money out of our paychecks, believe me it would be different if we had to write a check every month to the gov't, making sure a majority get a small "refund" every year, etc., but in the end it's still our fault for not getting involved directly.

It's kinda scary how analogous the Roman Empire and the U.S. are. The Soviets were our Carthage and with their defeat Rome turned inwards becoming a Oligarchy of the elite based on placating the masses on the backs of the Plebian class. This gave rise to dictatorship, which we have now, not Obama, but the vast central beauracracy which is Washington.

The answer, which our Founding Fathers, the smartest group of men to ever gather in history, gave to us, is the opportunity to call for a full blown Article V convention to update the language of the Constitution for modern times. Can it be done? Sure, remember estimates are pretty reliable only about 30% of the people favored independence from England, but is it likely? Probably not, were much to complacent and our politicians are much to corrupt for enough pressure to be brought to bear.

Hope I'm wrong I guess the next 10-15 years we'll see.

Deke

We are now on a one-way jou... (Below threshold)
ODA315:

We are now on a one-way journey from being a representative republic where politicians listen to their constituents to an autocracy where they listen to their leader.

Sad day indeed.

Worse yet it's clear now they'll be voting in cap and tax and illegal amnesty. Those that resist will be bribed with our money.

Get a rope!... (Below threshold)
914:

Get a rope!

"Or make that 66 ropes... N... (Below threshold)
914:

"Or make that 66 ropes... Need a few x-tras 1 for assclowns who refer to "radio gods."

Get a rope!26... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:
Get a rope!

26. Posted by 914 | December 20, 2009 12:48 AM


We'll need enough to really stimulate the domestic hemp industry.

There is still a very good ... (Below threshold)
Staylor:

There is still a very good chance that this whole thing could fall apart in conference. The bills that the Senate and the House have are very different from each other and there is much in the Senate bill to upset both liberals and conservatives in the house.
Remember that the House version passed by a bare majority and has only become more unpopular since then. It is definitly possible that certain house democrats use the changes to their bill foisted upon them by the Senate version as a figleaf to avoid voting for it further.
In the mean time as this bill is exposed to more sunlight and air and starts smelling even more like the dead fish that it is, the more the American people will hate it. This is not the end, it is only the end of the beginning.

Things will always ... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

Things will always be 'just fine' for the cockroaches who raid others' kitchens in the dead of night. The rest of us are going to suffer.

Government created the welfare system and...the world didn't collapse.

Government created Medicare and Medicaid and...the world didn't collapse.

Government created social security and....the world didn't collapse.

Government created the Post office and...the world didn't collapse.

...how does it feel to always be such a coward that you think the sky is falling every time someone proposes something "different."

You people are pathetic. The healthcare system we have today - here - is flawed, run by private business. Because of private business, insurers can drop you in a split second and there's nothing you can do about it.

If the elderly didn't have medicaid to fall back on when their money runs out at a nursing home, what then, idiots? Would we dump them all on an iceberg and sail away? I've had family members who have to strategize through this disasterous system - grandparents who were wiped out in their last remaining years. Have you?

Your "noise" reeks of fear and is terrible short in logic. Proof being, all these government run programs above have not destroyed our country and, in fact, help millions who would otherwise died back when none of this was in place (remember the great depression? probably not. Most of you people don't learn from the lessons of history).

Most democratic programs have been developed to help individuals. Most republican programs have been created for the benefit of business. I run a business - and the bottom line is not the overriding welfare of my employees - it is making a profit every year. While I'm better to my employees than most people are (I provide healthcare, give bonuses when the year works well) most companies are not. And, in the end, a company will not help you once you've been laid off. Thus, these programs are essential - and humane. Only a fool wouldn't see this.

Most of you people are either very well off and don't give a shit about anyone beyond your family circle - or you're too ignorant to see that all your heros - Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. - are working against your better interests. Either way, it is either a callous or ignorant way to go through life.

The problem with ignorance is that the only ones who can change it are those individual ignorant people. And none of you seem to be aware of how ignorant you really are.

And once again, SteveP prov... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

And once again, SteveP proves nothing is anywhere near so convincing of the actual workability of a plan than throwing out insults at everyone who dares question it.

"The problem with ignorance is that the only ones who can change it are those individual ignorant people. And none of you seem to be aware of how ignorant you really are."

Yeah, we dumbasses just can't wrap our minds around how taking an economy that's already been stressed by slamming out trillions in debt on bailouts and 'stimulus' packages, where the debt is rising to astronomical levels, where the DEFICIT alone is more than the tax receipts, and the National Debt's gone from 65% of GDP in 2007 to 90.4% in 2009 with a forecast of 101% in 2011 will be made even STRONGER by mandating a government requirement to handle EVERYTHING health care related!

You got a herd of unicorns that shit gold hidden somewhere, SteveP? I sure don't see any damn way we can pay for such 'FREE' care otherwise!

...and when the world doesn... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

...and when the world doesn't collapse, Lawson, are you willing to admit you were wrong? Or are you just going to spin it into some stupid historical-revisionist analogy about how republicans knew it would work along?

I'm betting on the latter as you people have NEVER admitted being wrong about anything - a weakness, by the way. And guess what? We've had deficits before and then, years later, had a surplus. The stock market has been down, then it goes back up. This is all an issue on how you view the world since none of you can predict the doomsday scenario you seem to cling to. On the other hand, this country has adjusted and remained resilient in the past.

Here's another question. What would President McCain do? If you want to talk about the potential of economic collapse, he would be the captain of that scenario. The only difference being that it would take twice the time to recover from his blunders - whereas Obama's work has been a bit more successful in the short term. (Want to discuss where we'd be if our financial institutions, reckless as they are, were allowed to collapse based on the republican's "survival of the fittest" platform? If it was for McCain, my Apple stock wouldn't be back up close to $200 like it is now. Very likely it would be below $86 - where it was when the markets crashed)

And lets not talk about insults. This blog is has been built on insults directed toward democrats. What? You can give it but you can't take it?

SteveP:"I run a busi... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

SteveP:
"I run a business - and the bottom line is not the overriding welfare of my employees - it is making a profit every year. While I'm better to my employees than most people are (I provide healthcare, give bonuses when the year works well) most companies are not. And, in the end, a company will not help you once you've been laid off."

Nice self-congratulatory post placing you in the rather unique position of being only 1 or 2 benevolent small business owners in this country. I guess my dad is the other one. The way I interpret your statement, you want these social programs in place so they lessen your guilt when you have to lay someone off? Here's a thought Steve, why don't you run your business like the government runs itself - continual borrowing/ high debt - and make the ultimate sacrifice of extending your staff's employment with you and then when it all falls apart you can walk the pavement with them.

You know Steve, I think there are very few people who post here who do not feel some form of healthcare reform is needed. The majority of both conservatives and liberals agree that soemthing must be done. They advocate different apporaches to that end and that is a very fair debate to have. Take care of the needy. Don't mandate that people who don't need the program participate in the program. You are very naive if you think liberals just want to "help" the disadvantaged. They want to "help" everyone regardless of need and they want to make sure everyone needs their "help" 24/7. If you believe that because government is not a private business that they can keep piling debt-accumulating programs on the American public you might just want to sell your business now while the dollar is worth at least something. I hope you have more vision with your business than you seem to have comprehending the long term economic consequences of these all-encompassing social programs.

SteveP -George Was... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

SteveP -

George Washington was hurt in an accident, but he was still alive - up until his last bleeding. That last pint just kind of did him in. And it was working so well until then!

Tiger Woods was doing so well until his last fight with his wife! Now his career's imploding, and we find the carefully crafted image of him as a dedicated family man was just plain bogus.

There's an old joke - it isn't the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the bottom. You seem to believe that we can take on massive amounts of debt indefinitely to fund whatever is desired, and not worry about actually paying it back. That works fine - until the creditors no longer extend credit and actually expect to be PAID.

As I said - I hope like hell you've got a herd of unicorns somewhere. We're OUT OF MONEY and we can't continue borrowing indefinitely - and the US going bankrupt would do one hell of a job on the world economy!

The way I interpret... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

The way I interpret your statement, you want these social programs in place so they lessen your guilt when you have to lay someone off?

Nobody ever likes laying anyone off. I've cut hours this year and managed to keep everyone I have in a very tough economy - and I blame YOUR President for the state of this economy, not Obama who's actually improved it (and my industry is now coming back).

They advocate different apporaches to that end and that is a very fair debate to have. Take care of the needy.

Different approaches. The republicans have not advocated ANY approach, short of tort reform and cross-state insurance competition. Where are all these different approaches? They don't exist - and the reality is if something isn't done, NOTHING GETS DONE. Government is not perfect. People are not perfect. Sometimes you have to make a leap and not micromanage every single decision. That results in doing nothing - exactly what your republican politicians hope to do but can't this time.

Don't mandate that people who don't need the program participate in the program.

This is another reason they give for inaction. The truth is there will always be people who scam a system - any system. But they tend to be a small percentage of the groups that truly need help. Republicans know this. It's a red herring. Looks at the deeds, not the actions. Every bit of legislation proposed by republicans in the last 10 years, short of a tiny percentage, has been business-friendly, individual-unfriendly. What do you make of that?

And if they care so much about healthcare reform, why has their not been ONE SINGLE EFFORT to reform it in the last 10 years while they had majorities? That's a logical question. What's the answer? I know I have an answer for that.

As they say, you're entitled to your opinions. You're not entitled to your own set of facts.

I'll also post a link that ... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

I'll also post a link that I've quoted before - National Debt compared to GDP historically.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

During Roosevelt we were 120% above GDP. Did our economy collapse? Was America destroyed? Guess not.

Once again. Your own opinion, fine. Your facts are faulty.

I think SteveP is irrespons... (Below threshold)
Michael:

I think SteveP is irresponsibly in debt in his own finances, so what does he care if the government acts irresponsibly.

"And if they care so much a... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

"And if they care so much about healthcare reform, why has their not been ONE SINGLE EFFORT to reform it in the last 10 years while they had majorities? That's a logical question. What's the answer? I know I have an answer for that."

SteveP, this is a good question and I have an answer too. I will give you that answer but I don't think you will agree.

I think Bill Clinton correctly recognized that some form of healthcare reform was warranted. I think he was a fool to put his wife - his wife - in charge of what anyone could have anticipated would have been a hot button issue requiring major legislation. If I have reservations about the unfairness of private healthcare I am sure as hell not going to want to be told I am going to pay more for a government run program in which the details are even more poorly worked out than the policy I have in hand. The uproar over healthcare reform during Clinton I am sure was noted by many in government.

So, we move on to W who proposed Social Security reform. We saw the response he got from the Democrats. Social Security reform is a valid initiative because in the long run it appears the obligations of the program will outstrip it's assets. So it is OK for the Dems to criticize Bush for Social Security reform initiative but not OK for Republican skeptics to criticize the Dems for a healthcare bill that not one single legislator has any clue as to what's in it?

You yourself do not think cross state insurance underwriting or tort reform is sufficient. I say it is a quite sufficient start with the only danger in the Democrat's eyes being that it might have a positive impact. I also say devise a program that takes care of the health of the needy. If a healthy, fresh out of college kid doesn't want to buy routine health care but just wants catastrophic insurance so be it. I also cannot see why blanket coverage for abortion needs to be in a health bill. Don't say it is not there because no one knows for sure what it is in the current bill. Abortion is a moral issue and the public should not be forced to subsidize elective procedures that have genuine moral implications. The vast majority of abortions are indeed elective. One of the goals of liberalism is to have the entire population under a single payer system. The less politically discreet liberals make no secret of this. I do not want to give the Democrats any foot in the door to this end because I believe healthcare reform can be achieved without this long term goal in mind and tort reform and cross state underwriting are valid means to this end.

By the way, if they do pass reform this year I agree the country will not fall apart. My understanding is that we are expected to pay into the system now only to have the actual reform guidelines begin some years hence. What a clever way to raise taxes. You really think they'll put those funds in escrow to be distributed when the health care bureaucracy is in place?

SteveP -Now you're... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

SteveP -

Now you're arguing that the fiscal policy in the Great Depression should be emulated? Oh, that's laughable.

Man, your accountant must have a hell of a time with your books. How long can you run it if you've got twice the expenses per year than you do income, and you've got three times that in long-term debt?

"Government created the wel... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

"Government created the welfare system and...the world didn't collapse."

Yes, it did, if you were actually on the welfare system. Formerly poor but stable communities have been utterly destroyed by welfare. In cruel irony, the hardest hit were blacks who were just coming free of Jim Crow laws.

SocSec, Medicare...they are all broke. Their world did collapse or soon will.

Plus, we're broke. We can't afford more programs.
Stop.Spending.So.Much.Money.

I think this is great. 60 ... (Below threshold)
Olsoljer:

I think this is great. 60 butt monkeys have placed bullseyes on their own backs. Lets find out how many targets there are in the House. That is what is coming down the pike in upcoming elections. Someone is waking up the "silent majority", and spitting in their faces. I predict a lot of new faces in Congress and the White House, and if the arrogance and mindless spending continue, those faces may not be democrats or republicans.
Would anyone care to explain how to call a Constitutional Convention?

steveP "During Rooseve... (Below threshold)
Marc:

steveP "During Roosevelt we were 120% above GDP. Did our economy collapse? Was America destroyed? Guess not." Once again. Your own opinion, fine. Your facts are faulty.

And what is opined at your link is commonly called Thin Air.

Yes he/she/it claims the deficit at the time spured on growth but 1. gives no proof via a cause and effect and 2 fails to account for the millions of dollars both saved by 2.5 million G.I.'s and given to them via the G.I. Bill that was used for schooling and purchase of many, I repeat MANY consumer goods the largest being housing.

And BTW, you also conveniently ignore what the TRUE national debt is. with out health care, without crap and tax you, I and everyone in the U.S. owes 347,995 dollars per person, interest on the debt alone is just short of 2 Trillion dollars and the asswipes in Congress are still spending AND are raising the debt ceiling.

If you think that's sustainable you're a damn fool.

But most of use already knew that.

steveP "Every bit of ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

steveP "Every bit of legislation proposed by republicans in the last 10 years, short of a tiny percentage, has been business-friendly, individual-unfriendly. What do you make of that?"

What the hell do you think this health care bill is?

It's DAMN friendly, thanks to secret meetings, with Big Pharma, [not to mention the Dems voting down in the last few days an amendment that would allow importation of cheaper drugs] and kisses the ass of SEIU and every other major union in the country.

steveP "If the elderly... (Below threshold)
Marc:

steveP "If the elderly didn't have medicaid to fall back on when their money runs out at a nursing home, what then, idiots?

A good and appropriate question given what the bill just passed does.

Just what will the States do [except Nebraska who as you know get a lifetime exemption/bribe] as this bill dumps hundreds of millions of dollars on the States?

What gets cut Steve? Education? Garbage pickup? Puppet shows at the nearby theater? Museums? Library's?

One thing we do know for sure, TAXES will shy rocket to make up for the large medicaid bill being dumped on the States.

Exit question the Senate bill just passed "mandates" 400 billion plus be cut from Medicare as a way to pay for the bill... do YOU think it will actually be cut?

And if it is cut will those voting for the cuts have a job above dog catcher when they do?

steveP "Government cre... (Below threshold)
Marc:

steveP "Government created Medicare and Medicaid and...the world didn't collapse." No but medicare is riff with fraud that no one is doing anything about.

"Government created social security and....the world didn't collapse." And since it's creation the turds in congress have been running it if it were a Ponzi scheme and by most estimates will be flat busted broke as the baby boomers enter the system.

"Government created the Post office and...the world didn't collapse." No the world didn't or won't collapse, but it IS in FACT ill run begs for a cash infusion each year to say afloat and BTW it's just been reported the post office employees of all the gov run agencies own more back taxes than any of them.

And BTW... under the current system, meaning pre "reform," Americans are denied far more often by Medicare than the private sector.

According to the American Medical Association's National Health Insurer Report Card for 2008, the government's health plan, Medicare, denied medical claims at nearly double the average for private insurers: Medicare denied 6.85% of claims. The highest private insurance denier was Aetna @ 6.8%, followed by Anthem Blue Cross @ 3.44, with an average denial rate of medical claims by private insurers of 3.88%

In its 2009 National Health Insurer Report Card, the AMA reports that Medicare denied only 4% of claims--a big improvement, but outpaced better still by the private insurers. The prior year's high private denier, Aetna, reduced denials to 1.81%--an astounding 75% improvement--with similar declines by all other private insurers, to average only 2.79%.What say you nitwit?

Steve,You seem lik... (Below threshold)
Deke:

Steve,

You seem like a fairly intelligent person and I assume you have probably taken a basic U.S. History and or Economic course. You do realize that the Roosevelt plan of total government involvement was doomed to failure and if it wasn't for WWII the plan would not have worked? You don't have to link a 1,000 sites to prove that point, a simple google search of the New Deal will give a ton of results showing the models.
All historical evidence points to the fact that the ppl that went to work were being paid in valueless money, hyper-inflation was on the door step and the economy was spiriling out of control, why do you think Roosevelt pushed the lend-lease agreement so hard?

I think our point of agreement comes from our difference on "the sky is falling" concept. You state even with the massive entitlements the U.S. is still here and functioning, I take the approach that those entitlements have taken us from what we were and what our Founders intended. You favor more of a Euro model, Elitist/Facist state, where as I and others, favor the more "conservative" inidividual liberty/responsibility model.

If you are truly ignorant enough to think we aren't being controlled by a dictatorship of centralized beauracracy, that placates and entertains the masses to maintain controll of the individual, then you truly are clueless.
In my opinion, this attempt to take control of healthecare just means another HUGE beauracracy is created that the masses depend on and will continue to elect politicians who will keep the status-quo.

Are we still here? The answer is yes. Do we still enjoy a very high standard of living? Yep. Have we sacrificed our individual liberty and freedom in order to obtain this security? You bet and that, for me, is the sad part.

You favor more of a... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

You favor more of a Euro model, Elitist/Facist state, where as I and others, favor the more "conservative" inidividual liberty/responsibility model.

That issue of "responsibility" as you state it - well, it's an easy statement to make if you're well off and/or young enough not to peer too far into the future.

Programs like Social security were created after the depression so that the elderly were not left to the elements. Like it or not, we all become old one day and predicting the state of our finances is difficult. My parents had substantial savings until the stock market dived in 2000 and this last year. Now they have social security. Nothing they did wrong, it's just the unpredictable nature of things.

I have a business that's doing well enough, yet I have two friends who's businesses (and careers for that matter) have become obsolete in the past year. From the perspective of many on this site, I should look at this as a game where my friends lose and I win. Survival of the fittest. That's what you're proposing when you claim "personal responsibility", right?

Pay out of my pocket toward a fund to help support people I don't know? Hell no. It's about me.

Sorry. I've got a bigger world view than many conservatives do. I don't place real people's lives into individual "buckets" so I can discuss them and never need to accept the complexities of real life.

It would be great if we lived in a world where the well off prosper and those who hit a bit of bad luck, bad health or old age just disappear so we don't have to see or consider them, but that's not the world I live in and not the world I know most of you live in either.

It's just the minority of you who seem to believe this fantasy about personal responsibility trumping all - circumstances, health, etc. - or you're just callous to everyone but your own. Either way, it's an unrealistic view of the world.

The other side of that is this issue of "talking about it more" or some other bullshit like that. You can talk about it all you want. No bill will be perfect so get real. If this doesn't happen right now, with this vote, history tells us it's a lost cause for quite some time. Many of you may want that because this is all a game to you. Adults know better.

SteveP, Having read ... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

SteveP,
Having read your posts here - and I am not being patronizing - I believe you are sincere in your views, in your business dealings and look at your employees as more than just commodities. Simply put you feel there should be a safety net for the unpredictable downsides of life. Your comment about your parents losing money in stocks in 2000 indicates that to me. I repeat again that I think that very few here on both sides of the political spectrum would disagree in general. We are a population who can afford to be charitable. You have no problem with a government program that mandates participation irrespective of need. There are those that don't. When Social Security was initiated it was never anticipated it would run out of funds. That economic model is not sustainable in business or government. If you advocate government run health care, why do you not lobby that Americans be offered the same plan that your elected representatives get as privilege of their employment? By the way, I am not trying to be callus, but your parents asset loses in 2000 were sadly unpredictable (well not really because it was an overvalued market but OK if you want go with that, fine). But if you participate in stocks losses do occur. Also, you do not have a broader world view than conservatives, you have a different world view.

Steve,Again I woul... (Below threshold)
Deke:

Steve,

Again I would like you to take a broader view of things and be more honest/logical in your approach. Casting out old people to the elements? Letting ppl that hit a stretch of bad luck perish? Come on now my friend, NO ONE has ever suggested such a thing, as conservatives we just feel there are better ways to accomplish this than a Socialist/Facist model.

Let's look at facts.

1: In the 1930's there was no 401k plans or other types of retirement savings, something was needed. The thing you fail to realize is that SS was a plan for it's time and Gen X and Y future retirees would be a whole lot better off without it, I mean the pure demographics of the plan mean that it's unsustainable w/o massive tax increases to support the coming retirement of the Baby Boomers, honestly you know as well as I do that it's broke and there is nothing but IOU's for this HUGE segment of our population. Your parents lost money in their portfolios, perhaps BUT they still will make out better from those private plans than they will ever from SS.

2: The Great Society/War on Poverty. How did that work out? Let's look at African-Americans for example. In the 1940's they, as a group, had a higher standard of living, enjoyed a great sense of community and some great advancements in diverse areas came from the community, this was at the height of segregation and racism. What do they have now since becoming, as a community, dependent on the government? 70+% teen pregnacy rates, black males make up 6% of the population and 80% of the prison population, the war on poverty was a failure and instituted a dependent class.

The same can be said about the other entitlements out there and if you look at it honestly you would agree.

What you, and other "progressive", types always fail to take into consideration is the human condition. I truly believe that you and others really want to help people, but unfort. when you offer a free lunch, to be paid for by "someone else", then ppl will line up for that free lunch and will come to expect it. How much better off would those ppl be if they had to find their own lunch, or told they could have it once or twice but after that they are on their own? You would have many, many more looking to get a lunch and a lot less sitting around waiting on it.

Your parents lost m... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

Your parents lost money in their portfolios, perhaps BUT they still will make out better from those private plans than they will ever from SS.

Really? My parents get a suppliment of $6,000 A YEAR from their investments, down from $8,000 the previous year and down from twice that before all this. SS they get $2200 a month. You tell me how someone survives on $6,000 a year. And how much do you need to invest in the future to get above poverty. Your logic makes sense to you but not in the real world.

The thing you fail to realize is that SS was a plan for it's time and Gen X and Y future retirees would be a whole lot better off without it.

You're speaking out of your ass. It's fun to theorize on this, but you don't take into account real lives. At 65 - 70 years old, with failing health (cataracts, macular issues, blood pressure, etc. - whatever strikes as an older person) simply going out and getting another job is not an option. You might think it is, but you're speaking your own world view and not that of anyone else.

You seem to do what I mentioned above - putting people in "buckets" - poor and lazy, elderly but able, etc. - and this just doesn't fly in a real world scenario where you're more likely to be wiped out financially from a single health issue or left destitute by a fluctuation stock market.

It's just not a practical, real world way of looking at people's lives.

How much better off would those ppl be if they had to find their own lunch, or told they could have it once or twice but after that they are on their own?

This statement assumes that everyone is able bodied and as capable to get what they want out of this world as you feel you are - and the only reason they don't is because they're lazy. Really, put yourself in the shoes of a 55 year old with diabetes or a 35 year old mother living in a town that has absolutely no jobs available at all - or a woman who at 45 contracts aids from a blood transfusion and needs to spend $800 a month on medications not covered by insurance.

These are REAL WORLD scenarios (speaking about people I know), and your economic and conservative theories don't fly.

"Survival of the fittest" may sound like good idea when you're 25, fit, rich and self-centered. It doesn't take into account any aspect of the U-turns life can throw at you.

I would rather live by "There but for the grace of God go I."

Again Steve you put emotion... (Below threshold)
Deke:

Again Steve you put emotion and extreme cases to simplify averages. Lets look

1: If your parents only get 6k a year from retirement investments, then the bottom line is they were either poor planners or in circumstances whereby they couldn't save, a problem that a solution can be found for without generational theft. You still did not counter the argument of SS being bankrupt, it is and you and I both know it's unsustainable.

2: A women with aids, a single mom in a town w/o jobs. Again all extreme cases and NOWHERE has anyone advocated letting these ppl die or starve or anything else, your use of the extreme downtrodden, in order to advocate confiscation of wealth, smacks greatly of Facism.

3: God said He helps those who help themselves also. If I am 35 with diabetes, do I let that stop me? If I'm a mom in a town w/o jobs, can I move to one that has them? Can I use the oportunities for training and education that will make me a more valuable employee, or do I sit around and draw my welfare?

Again Steve it comes down to the question, "Is it MY responsibility to make my life better or is it my neighbors?" And that my friend is the fundamental argument between Facist/Socialist and Conservative/Libertarians; is the public health the responsibility of the individual or the state.

Unfort., for you and your side, extreme cases of hardship not withstanding, as a whole your model fails time and time again.

Unfort., for you an... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

Unfort., for you and your side, extreme cases of hardship not withstanding, as a whole your model fails time and time again.

Very simple. If you apply no element of emotion, reality or compassion to any of these issues, you need to just shut up. And it's also obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as the people I talk about, their situations are NOT the result of bad planning or simply pulling themselves up from their bootstraps. Your assessment of these people is completely based on your need to frame your opinion and nothing else.

Ignorance really must be bliss, huh Deke?

And, by the way, none of these are extreme cases. They may be to you because you live a very cloistered life. If you have no ability to put yourself in other's shoes - or are too ignorant to educate yourself on problems beyond your own navel - you should keep your cakehole shut.

Deke,Here is a thr... (Below threshold)
SteveP:

Deke,

Here is a thread built around your less-than-knowledgeable answers.

Maybe you can learn something.

.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/23/818304/-This-is-why-I-hate-young-conservatives"
.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/23/818304/-This-is-why-I-hate-young-conservatives




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