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Birther Blues

Ah, the inevitability of some issues. They keep coming back over and over, no matter how stupid they are. For example: the circumstances of President Obama's birth.

Fortunately, both stories that touch on the "birther" nonsense are ones I can read and enjoy with unmitigated satisfaction.

In Arizona, apparently the birther nuts have managed to win over some people in high office. The state's House has passed a bill requiring that any candidate for president in the state present documentation to prove that they are Constitutionally eligible to hold the office.

Stripped of the whole "birther" baggage, the bill simply codifies something that has been presumed to be common sense, but has been challenged. If you wanna be president, you better be ready to demonstrate that you meet even the minimalist requirements spelled out by the Constitution. And while on the surface it gives the birthers a victory, it takes away their very reason for existence as of the next election cycle.

While my personal philosophy is "don't cater to the crazies' delusions," in this case I find nothing objectionable about the solution -- and, indeed, their "demand" here doesn't really offend my sensibilities. Indeed, I think it's entirely OK.

Meanwhile, there's a birther who's feeling exceptionally certain of his convictions. And those convictions might cost him his freedom.

Terry Lakin is utterly unconvinced that President Obama is not a "natural born" citizen, and as such has no authority to hold the office of President of the United States, let alone carry out the duties of said office. And under that theory, Lakin -- that's Lt. Colonel Terry Lakin, M.D., United States Army -- is refusing to accept his orders as Commander In Chief sending Lakin to Afghanistan. He says his oath to obey the Constitution and refuse to obey illegal orders takes precedence.

I've said before that I'm neither a lawyer nor a veteran. Needless to say, I'm no expert in military law. But I've read a bit about military law, especially the "illegal orders" aspect, and from what I've read about the law, he's utterly full of crap.

To my understanding, "illegal orders" fall into two categories. The first is "orders that are illegal on their face." That would be an order that is, in and of itself, breaks the law. This is what most people think of when they hear the term "illegal orders" -- stuff like "Private, go over there and kill all the prisoners" or some such. These were the kinds of orders that the Nazis were punished for obeying, and eternally tainted the "I was only following orders" rationale.

Then there's the second class of illegal orders -- orders issued by people not in the proper position to issue them. These are a bit trickier. These include situations where an inferior tries to give orders to a superior, where someone not in the chain of command attempts to issue orders, or where one individual attempts to countermand the orders of another without the authority to do so.

The proper response to these situations, as I've heard, is for the ordered individual to accept the order, but notify the proper authorities as to the conflict. The theory seems to be that the harm caused by obeying these orders is lesser than the harm caused by open insubordination.

Unless, of course, the subject of the order believes that the harm caused by obedience would be greater. In that case, though, he better be damned certain -- or he's going to get hammered down, and hammered down hard.

What Dr. Lakin is doing is making a principled stand on an issue he believes in so strongly, he's staking his entire career on it. He's running the risk of losing his commission, his freedom, and his future benefits. Hell, he could also be endangering his future livelihood -- a court martial conviction carries the weight of a felony conviction, and that could mess up his getting a medical license. He could spend several years in Leavenworth, then get a dishonorable discharge as Private Lakin.

As well it should be.

There is nothing inherently illegal about the orders issued to Dr. Lakin. They were not issued directly by President Obama, but by Dr. Lakin's chain of command. Further, as far as the military is concerned, the issue of Obama's eligibility is a closed matter. Quite frankly, it's not up to the president to prove to the military that he is qualified to be their Commander In Chief. We have civilian control of the military, and that means that the civilian governing structures decide who controls the military -- not the military itself. And Obama was certified as the president by Congress, the Supreme Court, and the Electoral College when they confirmed him in office.

Perhaps after Dr. Lakin completes his obligation to the United States Army (possibly after spending a few years turning big rocks into small rocks), he can move to Arizona and take a job certifying candidates for president on their ballot. He's already shown he has enough lack of judgment to serve as a doctor.


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Comments (113)

Amen.The USA Medic... (Below threshold)
epador:

Amen.

The USA Medical Corps seems to follow a pattern of letting its own misfits rise through the ranks untethered and then spectacularly fail (and I've seen them demonize some of their top performers).

I had to show my certified ... (Below threshold)

I had to show my certified birth certificate to get a passport, to get a drivers' license and, of late, to get a job.

I see no reason why ANYONE should object to producing proof of citizenship whenever it is required - particularly in this case where millions of dollars have been spent to AVOID doing the simple thing. And that intense effort is what makes me ask questions. It never occurred to me that there was anything amiss in The Won's birth until he started fighting so hard to protect his certified birth certificate (long form) and all his school records.

I'm not a birther, per se, but I do possess my fair share of common sense - and frankly, there's a strong limburger cheese moment going on here!

Lt. Colonel Larkin do the r... (Below threshold)
recovered liberal democrat:

Lt. Colonel Larkin do the right thing. Honor your oath and commitment to the country. Nobody twisted your arm, as far as I know, to receive your commission. Don't allow this to tarnish your enviable career in one of the greatest institutions of this country.

"a court martial convict... (Below threshold)
914:

"a court martial conviction carries the weight of a felony conviction, and that could mess up his getting a medical license. He could spend several years in Leavenworth, then get a dishonorable discharge as Private Lakin."

Maybe he could room with Kavorkian and they could write a memoir and cash in?

As far as the AZ law, just show the legitimate document and get it over with already. Kind of like bOOOOSH'S flying while intoxicated blathergate mapes xxerox escapades.


Jay, The... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Jay,

Then there's the second class of illegal orders -- orders issued by people not in the proper position to issue them. These are a bit trickier. These include situations where an inferior tries to give orders to a superior, where someone not in the chain of command attempts to issue orders, or where one individual attempts to countermand the orders of another without the authority to do so.

The proper response to these situations, as I've heard, is for the ordered individual to accept the order, but notify the proper authorities as to the conflict. The theory seems to be that the harm caused by obeying these orders is lesser than the harm caused by open insubordination.

If some is not in the proper position to issue an order you do not follow that order. An NCO cannot oder Commander. The NCO does have any legal authority to issue an order. The Commander has a Commission issued from Congress that allows him to give orders.

Now if you are talking about a Medical Corp officer trying to order Combat troops then agains the combat troops would not obey that order because the medical officer has no authority to order them.

Natural Born is left up to US immigration law. So as long as he was born to an American mother he would derive his Citizenship from his mother at birth.

Now I would love to know why BHO keeps hiding his BC to the extent that he had it sealed.

"Now I would love to kno... (Below threshold)
914:

"Now I would love to know why BHO keeps hiding his BC to the extent that he had it sealed."

Probably for the same reason Slick Willie Wonka kept his dilly bar's demographics under wraps? Oooops sorry...! He did let it slip once in a while didn't he..

hcd, I heard a theory a whi... (Below threshold)

hcd, I heard a theory a while ago that made a lot of sense to me:

Because it drives the nuts, nuts.

Longer version: as long as the nuts keep focusing on this issue pretty much to the exclusion of everything else, it achieves both 1) keeping the nuts fixated on this one issue and not on something that could cause him real harm, and B) it makes the nuts look like the nuts they are.

The nuts like to say that Obama's spent $2 million keeping it under wraps. Sounds like money well spent for him -- he's certainly got more than $2 million in benefits from it.

And thanks for the clarification on military law. Glad to know I wasn't completely talking out of my ass on that one.

J.

I am a the wife of a vetera... (Below threshold)

I am a the wife of a veteran, daughter of a soldier killed in Vietnam and the mother of a son serving in Afghanistan, so I hope my thoughts will be considered.

First off this, I never heard of this officer while President Bush was in office, so the concern about going to Afghanistan was not the issue, as Commander in Chief Bush sent troops and this soldier was not decrying the presidents authority to send the troops there( I am well aware of the Lefts opinions on the war etc- I am pointing out this soldier)...you can't cry "TIME OUT" all the sudden because you realize you may be sent to a war zone.

Now I do not know this man's military history, but I do know that the government pays off student debt or pays for doctors to go to med school...I wonder, who paid for his degree?

Now all that said, I have two sons born in Germany(not born on military bases, and so I worried when I had them if they could become anything they wanted if they so chose to(to include president) and was confirmed that they could, so when congress had to determine McCains eligibility, I understood a bit, but wondered, well why can't Obama just man up and cut the birth certificate loose. The constant hiding and now sealing of records sure make someone appear to be dishonest...

I am sick and tired of everyone playing partisan all the time. I believe that high school transcripts, college transcripts, college papers, and military records should be open for me to review. You see, me, a simple housewife from the sticks of New Mexico, is sick and tired of the crapfest and just wants simple integrity and honor brought back to the table, is that too much to ask?

Sure makes me appreciate Bush and his grades, and the video of him tossing the bird before he gave an interview, so much more. In fact, right now, I miss W, and wish we could have a real man back in the White House.

Jennifer

The whole Birther-thing beg... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

The whole Birther-thing began life as a scam to get people to look at a fake African news site where they had a mix of completely made-up items and real items they had copied from other sources.

On the fake news site, they would always have a story about a the work of a fake childrens' charity and an ad for the charity with a PayPal button. The two guys that set up the site were just hoping people might give $10 or $20 after reading about the fake charity.

Then, World Net Daily, Jerome Corsi and Orly Taitz got involved. And Orly Taitz got Lakin involved because she didn't have legal standing when filing her lawsuits.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.


Frankly, if this Lt. Colone... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

Frankly, if this Lt. Colonel Terry Lakin, M.D. is that, well, kooky, then perhaps it's best he not be in a position to make life or death decisions as a doctor.

But as for Arizona, my husband and I spent a week there last year for vacation. I found Arizonans to be refreshingly politically aware and feircely dedicated to the Constitution. Big Ron Paul territory there too. And it was not unusual to be sitting in a breakfast place and see someone walk in with a revolver strapped to their thigh. While I found them to be a shade over to the nutty side, they were excessively friendly and outgoing.

I'd live there.

"The constant hiding and no... (Below threshold)
914:

"The constant hiding and now sealing of records sure make someone appear to be dishonest..."

jennifer-

You should look at all the c-span coverage of Obamas dealings and rest easy that he is open, honest and his clarity is beyond reproach. Not to mention he has nice teeth and is half caucasian.

As someone somewhere else w... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

As someone somewhere else wrote the Arizona bill will not be retroactive so no matter what one feels about Obama's "origin" it is not going to affect him. And I agree with you Jay, it simply says if you want to be president and want to avail yourself of the Electoral College votes of Arizona then you must prove you are eligible on the basis of the constitution to receive them.

If Obama really, really wanted to through the US into a frenzy he could wait until his
term(s) being the President are over, unseal the birth certificate that shows he was not eligible to hold that office to begin with and watch the chaos that ensues when we decide all the laws he signed are null and void. I figured he might be the first President anyway who could choose to "retire" outside of the US particularly if he gets a UN job.

I'm sure Comrade Obama was ... (Below threshold)
TexBob:

I'm sure Comrade Obama was born in Hawaii, but his father will turn out to be his Grandfather and his mother will turn out to be some non-living black woman knocked up by Stanley.

It's a viable theory considering how remarkable the resemblance is and how his so called mother left for school 2 weeks after his so called birth.

Either way, Teh Won, is hiding too much of his past and the MSM is complicit in this fraud.

"And while on the surfac... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"And while on the surface it gives the birthers a victory, it takes away their very reason for existence as of the next election cycle."

That's a feature - not a bug.

Frankly I'm pretty sure Obama was born in this country, and even if not he's still born of his monther which makes him a natural born citizen - but I can't understand the complete lockdown on such simple things as his birth certificate and school records. I don't do conspiracy shit easily, but after the proctological examination of Bush's records and Palin's history (hell, sending reporters to dig through her TRASH?) the complete absence of any sort of media curiosity on Obama was puzzling as hell. I agree with Jennifer - there's something really off about it all.

Re the orders - basically if the person giving the order isn't in your chain of command, it's not appropriate for them to be giving you orders. His orders for deployment came down through the chain of command - not direct from Obama - so they're legal and valid, much as he's protesting otherwise. And as CinC - Obama DOES have the right to order around anyone on the military... but protocol would be that he'd express his desires to the Joint chiefs, who would see to it that what he wants (within legal limits) is carried out. Kind of like how a base commander isn't going to tell a passing airman to take care of something - he'll mention it to the squadron commander who has responsibility for that, who will tell the appropriate officer, who will pass it to a section chief who'll figure out who best to deal with the problem.

This Lt Col is, as you've said, full of crap on this.

This issue is really irrele... (Below threshold)
914:

This issue is really irrelevant as this SOB has no chance in hell of being re-elected

I just want to see who is l... (Below threshold)
ck:

I just want to see who is listed as the father.

"but after the proctologic... (Below threshold)
914:

"but after the proctological examination of Bush's records and Palin's history (hell, sending reporters to dig through her TRASH?) the complete absence of any sort of media curiosity on Obama was puzzling as hell."

Puzzling? Hypocritical would be more accurate. All they care is that he's half American Afro and all leftist. Makes em' wet their drawers.

What? You mean you consider... (Below threshold)
OLDPUPPYMAX:

What? You mean you consider it OK to hold presidential candidates to the Constitutionally stated requirements for the office? Gee, that's swell! When did you change your mind?

914apparently tryi... (Below threshold)

914

apparently trying not to point out the obvious is missed. My comment was you know, a wee bit sarcastic...

Sealing records~ not allowing anyone to read anything you have written- wreaks of someone who is not really one that is impressed with his past.

As to Obama I stand with missing W, and could care less about his teeth or his mom and how half whatever he is, seems to me the most important thing about him we ignored. We ignored the fact that he may be an American, but he does not like America, and with that, all color, all speeches, and all HOPE for real CHANGE was lost. Some of us knew that before he was elected, many now are slowly opening their eyes.

This soldier still has some issues, as I stand with the crying foul thing, now is looking for a loophole, when we the citizens of the US have recognized him as our president is a sorry thing. I have nothing against those who choose not to serve, and even those who fear going to a war zone...but the time to voice it is before the uniform is put on...hello, those that wear the uniform must understand that behind all the ads are men and women who swear to stand for this nation to their potential death. And until our people say Obama is not president-2012 or some magic birth certificate that disproves his citizenship, those in the uniform are bound to serve where they are sent.

Trust me, I think about our troops in harms way ever single day.

"I just want to see who is ... (Below threshold)
JPO:

"I just want to see who is listed as the father."

Yeah, maybe instead of a name, it says "Not sure."

Well Jennifer, in case you ... (Below threshold)
914:

Well Jennifer, in case you have not noticed, all of my comments are sarcastic when it comes to Obama. It matters not to me if he was born here or on pluto. Well, I would prefer pluto to this chump. Even the disney dog but...I digress..

The damage has already been done. Now on to the next important priority. Downsizing government.

Far as Im concerned they can all lose their jobs and the Country would be the better for it. Like there isn't 500 other people in this Country that can fuck things up at least as bad.

Puzzling? Hypocritical w... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Puzzling? Hypocritical would be more accurate. All they care is that he's half American Afro and all leftist. Makes em' wet their drawers.

Eww.

But correct, in a way. There was NOTHING, short of sodomizing an aardvark right in front of the cheering crowds when he accepted the DNC nomination, that would have caused them to be critical.

And even then, they'd have blamed the aardvark.

TexBob,I have often ... (Below threshold)
recovered liberal democrat:

TexBob,
I have often wondered why "o" is so indifferent towards his "half" brothers. Would anybody be against him reaching out to them and helping them? He is wealthy enough outside of his job to do that. So much for "spredin' it around". I have followed the articles at AmericanThinker about his possible ancestry and it is more believable than the narrative we have come to accept.

TexBob,I have ofte... (Below threshold)
914:

TexBob,

I have often wondered why "o" is so indifferent towards his "half" brothers.

which ones? The Afrocans, the indonesians, the mohicans, the Incan's, the ingrates, the baptist clan, the sunni's?

If were going to be indifferent, we have to be clear. Its not like C-span will give us air time to clear this all up. Now if we were the prez I bet you they would make an acception? Might even book the prompter as his approval ratings are 4x that of the good humor man in chief...

My question, what if he att... (Below threshold)
just bob:

My question, what if he attended school as a foreign exchange student and lied on his applications? That would show him for what he is.

Congratulations Jay ... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:


Congratulations Jay Tea, your "smokin' them out" post was a success.

"My question, what if he at... (Below threshold)
Meiji_man:

"My question, what if he attended school as a foreign exchange student and lied on his applications? That would show him for what he is."

That would be a good reason why he refuses to release his school records. Which I'm still convinced has something very damaging in them.

Barry keeps this game going to suck the air out of the room and draw people's attention away from his school years.

Jay,Nicely written... (Below threshold)
Shawn:

Jay,

Nicely written.

Completely off topic, but you have commended some of my article titles in the past.

Your "Alinsky, You Magnificent Bastard, We Read Your Book!" title was brilliant.

You magnificent bastard..

-Shawn

If his father is listed as ... (Below threshold)
engineer:

If his father is listed as "not present" on his birth certificate, would that explains his voting record in the Illinois senate. Was he overcompensating?

Speaking of All-insky with ... (Below threshold)
914:

Speaking of All-insky with other peoples money. Barry is being goaded by the prompter to remind us all that trillions of greenbacks have been lost due to dire circumstances inherited 2 years ago???

Breaking non consequential News!!!

Blaming Booosh never will go out of style! Especially when your lips are purple from pitcher after pitcher of grape Cooool-ade, you haven't a clue and to top it off you are without a doubt the WORST PRESIDENT EVAH!!

Jay, we disagree a lot but ... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

Jay, we disagree a lot but I respect for you having the balls to write this article.

I'm not a birther, but it s... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

I'm not a birther, but it seems reasonable to me that you should have to produce as much documentation of your citizenship to be President of the United States as is required to get a fricking driver's license.

Mine expired unnoticed a couple of years ago, and the unpleasant bitch I ran into at the DMV made me produce a notarized, government-issued certified birth certificate and even my military discharge papers.

To get a damned driver's license.

And Obama has the nuclear football that can destroy the entire world.

Something ain't right here.

Amen and ditto, brother Jay... (Below threshold)
Weegie:

Amen and ditto, brother Jay Tea.

First, I'd like to say that the typical Medical Corps officer is not really an officer, except for the rank. They never went through the leadership or military studies that other non-medical officers have to go through. Not to disrespect them, but the military wants them to be doctors, not officers, and they have different standards and career paths for them than for other officers.

Second, the issue of Obama's citizenship has long been verified. The birth certificate he has provided has been verified as legitimate, by the courts and by the state government of Hawaii. The claims that he wasn't born in HI have no meaningful evidence to support them.

Third, even if he wasn't physically born in Hawaii (for the sake of argument, even though he was), he would still be a natural-born citizen per US Code Title 8, 1801 because his mother was a US citizen. And as a natural-born citizen, he is certainly eligible for the presidency.

The 'proof' that he isn't a US citizen amounts to a claim that some old female relative claimed she remembers him being born in Kenya (if being an old female is that bedrock of fact, then that would make Helen Thomas the Matriarch of Truth, no?), to a meaningless Indonesian school registration form filled out by his step-father (it has no binding or legal status), a non-existant foreign student claim (at best a rumor), and that it says "certificate of live birth" on his birth certificate (it says the same thing on my original MI b.c. from the hospital). It's not much to throw away a career on.

I'm no fan of Obama or Dems (haven't voted for one in 30 years), but I am a fan of the truth. And the truth is that Obama is a US citizen, natural-born.

BHO mom and dad were... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:


BHO mom and dad were both pretty red and heavily political. So I wonder if in the normal throws of youthful protest the mother put that she was citizen of another country other than the USA?

Now under the 14th Armament he may still be natural born citizen but then the issues with Hawaii status would play into it would still be a Natural born Citizen

Weegie, I agree that this "... (Below threshold)
bobdog:

Weegie, I agree that this "birther" crap is the political dirty trick that just never dies, and it's fundamentally stupid and self-defeating.

That said, I still think it's a good idea to make any FUTURE candidate for President prove his citizenship as a precondition for running for office. Seems to me that it is, or should be, a Constitutional requirement.

Of course, at one time, Obama had to get an Illinois Driver's License, so I guess his citizenship has already been verified by the evil witches at the Illinois DMV...

And Obama has the nuclea... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

And Obama has the nuclear football that can destroy the entire world.

Bobdog, you are implying that Obama has not produced his birth certificate. It has been posted online and the state of Hawaii has also shown their copy to reporters. What more do you want from Obama?

I suspect that Arizona politicians are merely trying to propagate the myth that Obama has not proven he was born in the U.S. The passage of the bill would not affect Obama because he has already produced his birth certificate.

#36Whatever<... (Below threshold)
914:

#36

Whatever

McGarret had a 5-O Badge from there to.

Bobdog #32,

Seems like a simple enough requirement to fuck up the free world doesn't it?

Slightly more documentation then one would have to have to come across the border and work, deliver drugs, seek medical help or vote for a democrat for sure.

Peace~


I would like a clear defini... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I would like a clear definition of what "natural born" is. I somehow doubt it means born of foreign and American parentage. While his mother conferrs on him citizenship. That does not make it natural born. To me, one must be born of American citizen parents to be natural born.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III,... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

Zelsdorf Ragshaft III,

If one parent was born in the U.S. but the other was not, would you consider the child natural born?

What more do you want fr... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

What more do you want from Obama?

Well, Tina, that's a good question. Based on what was done with Bush and McCain and Palin, I'd have expected at least some of the following.

School records. Transcripts of his grades, awards, and attendance. Records of the classes he taught. Copies of the papers and articles he wrote.

Financial records - how he managed to pay for Occidental, Harvard and Columbia. (If someone paid for him - who? Harvard ain't cheap, neither is Columbia. Or were his grades good enough to get a free ride all the way through?)

Did he ever register for Selective Service?

How about his medical records?

What was his Bar Exam score like? Where did he practice? Who were his clients? Did he EVER actually practice?
I'd REALLY like to see what his grades were like.

There's a lot that we don't know about Obama's record. From a paperwork standpoint, there's just nothing there that'd qualify him as President.

Admittedly at this point it's pretty late to be thinking about it - but getting a better idea of what formed the man will give better guidance on what to expect from him in the next couple of years.

Hccdz"If some is n... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Hccdz

"If some is not in the proper position to issue an order you do not follow that order. An NCO cannot oder Commander. The NCO does have any legal authority to issue an order. The Commander has a Commission issued from Congress that allows him to give orders.

Now if you are talking about a Medical Corp officer trying to order Combat troops then agains the combat troops would not obey that order because the medical officer has no authority to order them."

Question

Did you serve? If so for how long and were? I am willing to bet that you probably didnt or didnt do so for long.

Here is how it works.

A. Position trumps rank. Example : A PRIVATE E-1 can stop a general and not allow him to enter an installation he is guarding IF that general does not have proper authorization. Another example is MPs. MPs which are generally enlisted can and do order higher ranking solders all the time.

B. Medical officers can and do give orders just like regular officers. A General in the medical corps outranks a COL in the infantry corps. As to whose order takes precedence it goes back to what position each has.

Whether or not an order is valid or not falls into 2 general categories.

Is the order illegal?
Is the order immoral?

Both of these are contigent in the first place on whether or not the person giving the order is in the POSITION to give you the order and if they are not if they have the RANK to give you an order. (example being "pick up a piece of paper on the ground" - you dont have to have a special position to give the order just be of a higher rank or the same rank with a date of rank higher than the person to whom the order is given. yes I have seen one E-4 order another E-4 to do something and pull date of rank on that person.).

Obama currently has that position (Commander in Chief) to give the order.

Is the order to go to war illegal? NO.
Is it immoral ? NO


Now a person can question the legitamacy of the POSITION of the person giving the order. HOWEVER, if the order is not illegal or immoral and they do not obey the order regardless of whether the feel the person is legitamately in that position than they are WRONG. They can request the person prove that they are in position to give the order and take it up through the chain but if the order is not illegal or immoral than if they dont follow it they are wrong.

Cut and dried.

Otherwise you could have Privates questiong SGTs if ordered to take a hill stating the SGT has to prove he has the authority to give the order by showing proof that he is a SGT and that he is in a position to give the order and until he does the private isnt moving. The military does not work that way.

"School records. Transcr... (Below threshold)
914:

"School records. Transcripts of his grades, awards, and attendance. Records of the classes he taught. Copies of the papers and articles he wrote.

Financial records - how he managed to pay for Occidental, Harvard and Columbia. (If someone paid for him - who? Harvard ain't cheap, neither is Columbia. Or were his grades good enough to get a free ride all the way through?)

Did he ever register for Selective Service?

How about his medical records?

What was his Bar Exam score like? Where did he practice? Who were his clients? Did he EVER actually practice?"

You ask too much

"Admittedly at this point it's pretty late to be thinking about it - but getting a better idea of what formed the man will give better guidance on what to expect from him in the next couple of years."

Jerimiah formed him, november will render him a lame ducky

May as well chime in here too, buddinsky that I am.

Tina-

If one parent was born in the U.S. but the other was not, would you consider the child natural born?

If the child had liberal parents? It would be nothing short of a miracle for them to survive a natural chilbirth not to mention 50 years of the Kennedys.

From JOM:The Alla... (Below threshold)
Hank:

From JOM:

The AllahPundit offered this incomplete taxonomy of birthers and their fellow travelers:

What I will say in the Birthers' semi-defense is that I think there are actually two camps inside the movement. One is the group that simply wants Obama out of office as soon as possible and has latched onto this thin, exceedingly lame reed as a way of making it happen. The other is a group that's grown curious about the fact that ... no official enforcement mechanism for the Constitution's natural-born requirement seems to exist, even though it's a baseline requisite for the presidency.

A commenter provides this supplement:

I would also posit that there are THREE "camps" of thought that get lumped into the "birther" category.

The first two are as [AllahPundit] stated.

The third is where I would put myself - a person:
1) who wonders why it is so difficult for Obama to provide an actual Birth Certificate; and
2) who sees a connection between the lack of details and secrecy regarding Obama's birth and the lack of details and secrecy about so much else of Obama's life - his connections to Ayers, his grades in college, the papers he published, the lectures he taught, etc.

I don't think Obama was born in Kenya or any other place other than Hawaii.

But I find it outrageous and ridiculous that we know more about Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber than we know about Obama.

"You ask too much"</... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"You ask too much"

Yeah, as long as I'm telling Santa my list, I'd also like a sane energy policy with an emphasis on domestic growth of the energy supply and a functioning economy with added incentives for entrepreneurs.

And a pony.

Or maybe a unicorn - I hear they're good eatin', tastes like chicken...

Hank #43You must h... (Below threshold)
914:

Hank #43

You must have missed all the numerous occasions Barry appeared on c-span..

This is much ado for naught.

Well Im off to Hold em' </p... (Below threshold)
914:

Well Im off to Hold em'

Wish Me luck great people! Whatever You do, dont wish me Barry good luck, for if you do? I will surely need a bail-out tonight!!

take care~ Jeff

Lieutenant Ehren Watada, Ha... (Below threshold)
davidt:

Lieutenant Ehren Watada, Hawaii, succeeded in refusing deployment to Iraq because he believed the war to be illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada

To me, one must be born ... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

To me, one must be born of American citizen parents to be natural born.

Past presidents who would not be eligible based on this definition:

Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) - both parents born in Ireland.

Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) - mother was born in England

James Buchanan (1857-1861) - father born in Ireland.

Chester Arthur (1881-1885) - father born in Ireland.

Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) - mother born in England

Herbert Hoover (1929-1933), mother born in Canada.

In addition Mitt Romney would not be eligible as his father was born in Mexico

Past presidents who woul... (Below threshold)
mitttt romney:

Past presidents who would not be eligible based on this definition:

Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) - both parents born in Ireland.

Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) - mother was born in England

James Buchanan (1857-1861) - father born in Ireland.

Chester Arthur (1881-1885) - father born in Ireland.

Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) - mother born in England

Herbert Hoover (1929-1933), mother born in Canada.

In addition Mitt Romney would not be eligible as his father was born in Mexico

Your list is full of dead people so contact ACORN or hold a seance

And mitttt romney is mormon and they have their own rules so bite me!

"To me, one must be born of... (Below threshold)
engineer:

"To me, one must be born of American citizen parents to be natural born."

Tina, the list you gave is presidential 'parents' who weren't 'born' in the United States. It isn't a list of presidential parents who weren't American citizens. You can apply to become a citizen if you're foreign born, it happens all the time.

I am adopted. I ha... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

I am adopted. I have two birth certificates. The "official" state certified one is mostly lies. My original tells the truth.


Tina, the list you gave ... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

Tina, the list you gave is presidential 'parents' who weren't 'born' in the United States. It isn't a list of presidential parents who weren't American citizens. You can apply to become a citizen if you're foreign born, it happens all the time.

Thats an intersting point you brought up.

Tima"To me, one mu... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Tima

"To me, one must be born of American citizen parents to be natural born.""

But just because you think it is so DOESNT make it so. The LAW states otherwise.

To me abortion should be illegal but as you well know it isnt.


Weegie: While most rank an... (Below threshold)
epador:

Weegie: While most rank and file MC don't have much of military officership in training or mentoring, those in SOF do (they are a separate entity and generally train and fight with their line-side soldiers), and the minority that go to War College do. Unfortunately or not, the USHUS grads have their own little mafia and old boys club, and jealously guard the War College and similar training for their own. Thus they tend to be the shakers and movers and inbreed much to the detriment of MC Coprs administration.

"To me, one must be born... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

"To me, one must be born of American citizen parents to be natural born.""

But just because you think it is so DOESNT make it so. The LAW states otherwise.

To me abortion should be illegal but as you well know it isnt.

retired military,

The quote was not made by me. It originated from Zelsdorf Ragshaft III. See comment 38. Personally I have no problem with Zelsdorf statement. A lot of people state their opinions as facts. Zelsdorf made it clear that he was stating an opinion and not a fact. Hats off to Zelsdorf for doing so.

The question is, were both ... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

The question is, were both parents U.S. citizens at the time of birth? It is exactly what the framers where trying to avoid. Obama's first loyality does not appear to be to the United States. He has in the past, honored his "homeland" Kenya. His father was a British citizen at the time of his birth. I really do not care one way or another because he was elected and the hubbub it would cause African/Americans if found to be unqualifed would be disunifying for quite some time. However I do wonder just what it is he is hiding.

For the facts regarding "Na... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

For the facts regarding "Natural born citizen" status:

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/04/founder-and-historian-david-ramsay.html

Tina,If a person's p... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Tina,
If a person's parents were citizens (by birth or grant), then that person may be a natural born citizen.
Also, there was a "grace period" at the birth of the nation around the natural citizen requirement, since everyone involved was born before the nation itself.

From Article 2 of the US Constitution

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

I know Tina S. is the favor... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I know Tina S. is the favorite liberal flavor the past couple of weeks, and I must say, her and JT are getting along famously but how about some reality about Tina S. and her friends. How many times have liberals stated GW Bush stole the election and therefore he is not their president? That comment was made a zillion times by not fringe liberal nuts (oxymoron?) but mainstream liberal pundits. Also the words illegitimate, illegal, coup was used often. So now Tina S. is perplexed why some on the fringe, and I do mean fringe, won't let this go. Again, they wear their hypocrisy proudly. One thing the liberal wing did not count on the past eight years was how good conservative memories are. The left has lowered the bar so low, they can never stand up with faux rightious igdignation. ww

RM.in the Navy we ha... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

RM.
in the Navy we have Line and Staff officers. Officers of the Line have the ability to carry out combat operations. Staff officers do not. I know in the Marine Corp all officers have are line officers. I should have made the distinction.

I did serve. Maybe I misunderstand but in your example the person has the Authority to care out the order. In the case that Jay stated. they person did not have the authority to issue or countermand that order.

He stated

The proper response to these situations, as I've heard, is for the ordered individual to accept the order

That would encourage insubordination if the Commander obey an order that an NCO had no authority to carry out and the Commander knew it. because it would Detrimental to good order and Discipline.

In the Navy if a Medical corp officer issued the command to fire on a ship that a Line officer said not to do that order would be illegal and sailor would be guilty of caring out an illegal order.

If a Medical officer said clean my car you would follow that order. The order would be leg because he has the authority and it in on combat situation.

One could then report that he might have abused his position.

I in no way intended my post to Justify Lt Col Lenkin position.
He guilty of many UCMJ violations.



Obama was "born here in Ken... (Below threshold)

Obama was "born here in Kenya" and is "not a native American" per Kenyan Member of Parliament and Minister of Lands in Kenya in debate in Kenyan National Assembly on March 25, 2010.

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/04/current-minister-of-kenyan-government.html

I just checked out the site... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I just checked out the site diogenes suggested. Seems to be a natural born citizen one must be born of parents who are both American citizens. Was BHO jr.'s esteemed papa a subject of the British Crown? David Ramsey, one of the founders defines Natural Born Citizen in 1789 as exactly what I wrote above. The only exceptions mentioned were those who were there at the beginning and could not have been born Natural Citizens. Looks like grounds for impeachment if we ever get control of congress.

I also don't think that Oba... (Below threshold)
Joe Horn:

I also don't think that Obama technically meets the requirements of being a "natural born citizen". However I think you are correct, it is not up to the mitlitary to confirm it. It was up to Congress, the Electoral College and Secretary of State of Each State to confirm it. I think Judge Carter legal analysis was on the mark when he said, once the President takes the oath of office, the only way you can remove a sitting President is by actions taken by the Congress. I really don't think even the Supreme Court will touch this because it outside their jurisdiction.

hcddbz Your exampl... (Below threshold)
retired military:

hcddbz

Your example of cleaning car is an example of an illegal order. The UCMJ has regulations against officers using enlisted personnel for personal services. (exceptions are certain generals who have enlisted who do things of a personal nature for them as part of their duties).

Understood about line and staff officers. It is understood that say a LTC who is a JAG officer doesnt give orders to an infantry company CDR or infantry company (unless under certain circumstances such as war and the JAG officer is the highest ranking officer and other officers were wiped out. If other officers were present from the infantry company than the JAG officer could still take command but would most likely defer to their judgement in the thick of battle due to technical expertise). The JAG officer could still countermand the orders but is asking for it if something goes wrong.

In short, there is the clear cut and then there is the foggy part like during war when things can get slippery.

Another example is Ft HOOD garrison CDR is an O6 (COL). yet we have an O-9 (3 star general) on post who has to obey Ft Hood regualations set by the garrison CDR. Now I dont know many COLs who would buck a 3 star even if they were in the right. That is where the 3 star pulls the COL aside and says "you may have the authority in this matter but if you want your career to go farther than you will do it my way" which happens all the time. Most COLs realize this and act accordingly.

Another example is an NCO academy. A CSM (E-9) is the CDR of that academy and as such has UCMJ authority. That CSM can give article 15s to soldiers attending that academy. The "normal" company CDR of that soldier would probably be consulted as a courtesy but that CPT (0-3,I know navy CPTs are O-6s) cannot countermand that CSM as that CSM has that position of authority.

As stated 99.9999% of the time you dont have issues because people know their place and responsibilities in the military and in general fulfill those responsibilities.

In situations like this LTC is where you get out the regulations and state XYZ whereas most of the time the line is very broad and noone crosses over it.

Obama, unfortunately, is President and is recognized as such by just about everyone in authority. As such the LTC is wrong and will be found guilty at a court martial. Obama will not have to produce a birth certificate and the LTC will most likely get an other than honorable (if not dishonorable ) discharge and may do some jail time.

RMsince you asked.<b... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

RM
since you asked.
NTC Great Lake
US Military Intelligence School FT Devens.
New London Sub base
NTTC Corry Station Pensacola
NSGA Okinawa
Torri Station
Pearl Harbor Submarine Base
Naval Submarine Base Point Loma


I just checked out... (Below threshold)
Marc:
I just checked out the site diogenes suggested. Seems to be a natural born citizen one must be born of parents who are both American citizens.
Sorry, that site and what it asserts is a flat-out stinking pile of bovine excrement.

Me American born citizen and vet of 20 years in U.S. Navy.

Wife Filipino, two daughters both born in the Philippines.

Both daughters WERE American citizens the very second they were born in a Philippine hospital AND holders of U.S. passports issued by the American embassy located in Manila, Philippines with NO QUESTIONS ASKED within one month or their birth!

hcddbz - A Bubblehead huh?<... (Below threshold)
Marc:

hcddbz - A Bubblehead huh?

Sorry had to say it, yours truly from your friendly neighborhood Skimmer! (or target if you prefer.)

Marc, I wante... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Marc,

I wanted to be but but got Dropped from RM(SS) because of knees so became a CTM and then worked hard to get recommend for direct support so I could ride part time.

Marc see you and do you one better.
I am an immigrant who was Naturalized when I was 15. Wife is a Filipino and Kid are both Natural Born Citizens.

The issue is what constitute natural born?
US immigration Law has two types of Citizenship:
1) US Citizen at birth
2) You become one through Naturalization.
The other status you could have would be a US National


Even if BHO was born aboard as an illegitimate child his Mother is still and American Citizen and he would have been b a Citizen at birth.

INA: ACT 309 - CHILDREN BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK


Sec. 309. [8 U.S.C. 1409]

(a) The provisions of paragraphs (c), (d), (e), and (g) of section 301, and of paragraph (2) of section 308, shall apply as of the date of birth to a person born out of wedlock if-

(1) a blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence,

(2) the father had the nationality of the United States at the time of the person's birth,

(3) the father (unless deceased) has agreed in writing to provide financial support for the person until the person reaches the age of 18 years, and

(4) while the person is under the age of 18 years-

(A) the person is legitimated under the law of the person's residence or domicile,

(B) the father acknowledges paternity of the person in writing under oath, or

(C) the paternity of the person is established by adjudication of a competent court.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in section 405, the provisions of section 301(g) shall apply to a child born out of wedlock on or after January 13, 1941, and before December 24, 1952, as of the date of birth, if the paternity of such child is established at any time while such child is under the age of twenty-one years by legitimation.

(c) Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person's birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.f6da51a2342135be7e9d7a10e0dc91a0/?vgnextoid=fa7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=fa7e539dc4bed010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&CH=act

hcddbzOf course my... (Below threshold)
retired military:

hcddbz

Of course my apologies.

As can be seen each service is slightly different in how they handle the general issues of this matter.

The LTC is question is US Army. I am retired army so I looked from that perspective.

I think this specific issue would get handled the same no matter which service was involved.

When were you at Pearl BTW? I did 4 years at Camp Smith.

BryanD - shove it.

As for the Arizona law. Arizona can pass its own election laws. THey have that right. At least for now. Who knows what else Obama will try to take away from the states.

Back 20 years ago I was pra... (Below threshold)
Fred Z:

Back 20 years ago I was practicing law and acting for an owner unhappy with his building contractor, an older gent who had been in business around our parts for 20 years building high-rises. In the discovery phase I asked the contractor for an inspection of his original Engineering degree.

Excuses. Buried in the files. Lost. No time to look. I'll write to the university and get a new one. I'll look harder. I can't imagine why the university is so slow. Blah. Blah. Blah.

He kept on asking us to skip this trivial item of lost paperwork and get on with the trial. I persisted, and argued with my client, his wife,my partners my friends in the legal community all of whom agreed I was a senseless birther.

Ha!

You guessed it. No degree.

There is no reason on God's earth why Obama should refuse the hospital records. Unless there are none, or they say inconvenient things.

I was not and am not trying... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

I was not and am not trying to deny Obama citizenship in the U.S. What I am saying is he fails to meet the criteria of a Natural Born Citizen as both of his parents were not U.S. Citizens. Obama's father was not and did not intend to become a U.S. citizen. So, the whole question is what meets the standard of being a natural born citizen. One of our founding fathers, David Ramsey, defines, in 1789, the requirement for both parents to be U.S. Citizens either by birth or naturalization. Obama is one parent short in that regard.

Both daughters WERE Amer... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Both daughters WERE American citizens the very second they were born in a Philippine hospital AND holders of U.S. passports issued by the American embassy located in Manila, Philippines with NO QUESTIONS ASKED within one month or their birth!

66. Posted by Marc | April 22, 2010 7:51 PM


Mark. No one is asserting that your daughters are not American Citizens. Prior to the 1920, they would have even been "Natural Born Citizens." Since Women were granted the right of passing on their Citizenship after 1920, your daughters cannot be "Natural Born Citizens."

You apparently don't understand the distinction between "American Citizen." and "Natural Born Citizen."

That site which you referred to as "Bovine Excrement can explain the difference if you will bother to read it.

zelsdorf<a href="h... (Below threshold)
retired military:

zelsdorf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States

All persons born in the United States, except those not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. government (such as children of ambassadors or other foreign diplomats) are citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. Additionally, under sections 301-309 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (restated in sections 1401-1409 of Title 8 of the United States Code), current U.S. law defines numerous other categories of individuals born abroad, as well as people born in most U.S. territories and possessions, as being "nationals and citizens of the United States at birth".[11] The phrase "natural born citizen," however, does not appear in the current statutes dealing with citizenship at birth


The 14th amendment states

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

NOTE: It says nothing about parents intentions, nonintentions, or anything else.

This clause is why we have anchor babies from illegal immigrants who never intend to become citizens. They just dont want to get deported but still keep their mexican (or other country's) citizenship.

also see supreme court case

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898): In this case, the majority of the Court held that a child born in U.S. territory to parents who were subjects of the emperor of China and who were not eligible for U.S. citizenship, but who had "a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China" was a U.S. Citizen

The Court stated that:

The constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words [citizen and natural born citizen], either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except in so far as this is done by the affirmative declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States

It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.

WildWillie,I had a... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

WildWillie,

I had a recent life experience that has changed my outlook on a lot of things. I urge you not to justify your actions or others by what liberals have done. When you do, you are allowing them to lower your own standards. Somehow I forgot this most golden of rules, and only remembered it recently. Hate is like a disease that spreads easily, turns the heart cold and saps the joy out of life.

The constitution nowhere... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

The constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words [citizen and natural born citizen], either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except in so far as this is done by the affirmative declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States


74. Posted by retired military | April 22, 2010 11:06 PM

Two points.

1. The Constitution does not define a LOT of words and Phrases. The Meanings were common knowledge in 1787, and they didn't need definitions when they were written.

2. A "citizen" is no the same thing as a "Natural born citizen." 14th amendment citizenship (such as Wong Kim Ark derives from)is not the same thing as "Natural Born Citizenship" as written in the Constitution. The phrase has a very specific and different meaning than "Citizen."

The referrence I use and th... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

The referrence I use and the one Diogenes points to was written by one of the founding fathers. The probablity of one of them knowing what they meant by the term "natual born citizen" is much greater than speculation on what it means 200 odd years later. Somewhat similar to the misinterpretation of the 1st amendment with regard to the establishment clause and it being morphed into (by atheist) a separation of church and state. All the first amendment says is congress cannot establish a religion similar to what England did or the offical religion of many European states. Anti freedom forces use false interpretation of laws to take away our freedom. How is a right to privacy (which does not exist) pertain to abortions which are performed in public clinics?

RM,No issue. ... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

RM,

No issue.

I did LE in the Navy as auxiliary duty ASF and Explosive Ordnance Driver in Okinawa and Prisoner Escort in Hawaii So I agree with your scenarios I was looking at the knowledge part.

Come on, you got to admit you would bust your sides if a Private gave a COL an order and instead of handing the E-1 his lunch COL reports to a General he carried it out even though the private was not any position to issue the order. Once the Physic eval was done he would be out on his ass.

I was in PH 94-96

back to LT COL Lakin

Which Article will they bring up.
87 Missing Movement
88 Contempt Towards Officials
90 willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
92 Failure to obey Regulation
133 Conduct unbecoming of an Officer and Gentleman
And 134 General Article.

DiogenesLamp - "Mark. N... (Below threshold)
Marc:

DiogenesLamp - "Mark. No one is asserting that your daughters are not American Citizens."

Really, thanks but I never said they did. Comment was pointed directly it the nimrods who have a complete failure at understanding ANYTHING related to citizenship.(and yes that means each and every birther)

"You apparently don't understand the distinction between "American Citizen." and "Natural Born Citizen."

Considering you started your BS with a false premise you would obviously be wrong.

"That site which you referred to as "Bovine Excrement can explain the difference if you will bother to read it."

Let me repeat myself the place is Bovine Excrement.

Got it now?

Marc, Diogenes, let me simp... (Below threshold)

Marc, Diogenes, let me simplify issues for you:

Marc, according to Diogenes, your daughters are second-class citizens. They're not REAL REAL Americans, and as such aren't entitled to run for president or certain other things. Oh, they're still Americans, still citizens, but because of the circumstances of their births, they don't qualify as REAL REAL Americans. Sorry, but they shoulda known better than to be born under circumstances that disqualified them from being REAL REAL Americans, and you were stupid for going ahead with your life while serving the nation.

Sucks to be you, sucks more to be them, but that's simply the way it is, Marc.

You might quibble with my language, Diogenes, but isn't that an accurate summary of your argument? I substituted "REAL REAL" for "Natural Born" to make it clearer that you consider them to be of a lesser privileged class of citizen, but other than that, the gist is correct, right?

J.

Let me repeat myself the... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Let me repeat myself the place is Bovine Excrement.

Got it now?

78. Posted by Marc | April 23, 2010 4:40 AM | Vote up Vote down Report this comment Score: 0 (0 votes cast)

I am beginning to suspect that any place you visit is bovine excrement.

Marc, Diogenes, let me s... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Marc, Diogenes, let me simplify issues for you:

blah blah blah blah.


You might quibble with my language, Diogenes, but isn't that an accurate summary of your argument? I substituted "REAL REAL" for "Natural Born" to make it clearer that you consider them to be of a lesser privileged class of citizen, but other than that, the gist is correct, right?

J.

79. Posted by Jay Tea | April 23, 2010 5:23 AM


Jay Tea, you seem to think that "Simplify" means being a simpleton.

No, you are not correct, but it is not worth my trouble to explain to you why you are wrong, and I doubt you would understand it anyway.

Just for kicks, your first mistake is a fallacy called "Appeal to Emotion."

Till you comprehend what that is and why it's a fallacy, it is a waste of your time, and more importantly anyone else's to discuss this with you.

What kills me is when the i... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

What kills me is when the issue came up about McCain's status (not being born on US soil) it was all taken seriously and reported on with what the NYT called "unbiased" "objectivity". But even mention Obama's status and eyes roll back and pea soup spews from mouths.

I'm just sayin'.

hcddbz Ref Private... (Below threshold)
retired military:

hcddbz

Ref Private COL scenario

Granted not a very "realistic" scenario but in certain circumstances very plausible.

I worked around Top Secret material and in SCIFs for about half my career.

I had one LTC pissed at me for forcing him to show ID one time. It was a TS report and I forced him to show ID. He was in uniform, nametag and all, with several other people whom I knew. But in the end he showed his ID because he knew I was in the right.

Generally guards of facilities that house classified material/operations are of lower rank than personnel trying to access those facilities. Sometimes the higher ranking people try to bend the rules to make it easier on themselves "you know me, I left my badge in the car, I will only be a minute".
"No sir, you are required to have a badge to enter and I cannot allow you to enter. sir"

You know the scenarios I am talking about.

As I stated, 99.999% of the time folks know the rules and follow them but then again here we are talking about the FAR FAR outlier here.

As to which article

87 Missing Movement - I would think most likely.

88 Contempt Towards Officials - possible but doubt they will go with it.

90 willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer - Obama isnt officialy a commissioned officer but I admit I am hazy on how this one applies to the President.

92 Failure to obey Regulation - Possible but doubt if the movement order is a regulation.


133 Conduct unbecoming of an Officer and Gentleman - Possible.

And 134 General Article - The infamous catch all.

Out of the ones you named I would say missing movement is the easiest and most likely.

You were in long enough to know that in cases like this they will most likely go with the easiest. You also know that if they want to get you they will. "You are 5 minutes late for your meeting with general such and such ref this matter. That is disobeying a commissioned officer".

The barracks lawyers could always cite how this and this was against regulations and make IG complaints and everything else. Yet they couldnt fight the ART 15 for being 30 seoonds late to formation.

I beleive you know that no matter what happens this officer's career is over. He could prove his case and never get promoted again. He knows it but he chose to go this route.

Dear Sir,</blo... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Dear Sir,

Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of our national government ; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any but a natural born citizen.

I remain, dear sir,

Your faithful friend and servant,
John jay to George Washington. July 25 1787

No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States

Hamiltion June 18, 1787


David Ramsay Member of the Continental Congress 1782-1783 and 1785-1786.
http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=R000023

He was not there during the time of proposal or adoption.
Bovine Excrement pt 1

The site goes on and on about Natural Born being someone being born in the USA. However the only Congressional act to define it in 1790 said it applies to those born abroad of citizens.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgibin/ampagecollId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=227

Bovine Excrement pt 2.

This leaves us current Immigration law


He was not there during ... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

He was not there during the time of proposal or adoption.
Bovine Excrement pt 1

The site goes on and on about Natural Born being someone being born in the USA. However the only Congressional act to define it in 1790 said it applies to those born abroad of citizens.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgibin/ampagecollId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=227

Bovine Excrement pt 2.

This leaves us current Immigration law

84. Posted by hcddbz | April 23, 2010 10:00 AM

The Meaning of the phrase "Natural Born Citizen" was widely known when it was written (1787)and subsequently ratified by the states. Congress subsequently passed an Act in 1790, which utilized the meaning of the term at that time. (That both parents had to be American Citizens.)

Congress subsequently replaced that act with another act. Other than to lend understanding to the Meaning of the phrase "Natural Born Citizen" none of the Subsequent acts of congress can change the meaning of the Article II requirement for "Natural Born Citizen."

The only way to change the Article II Meaning is through a Constitutional Amendment.

Since we didn't have one of those regarding the Article II meaning of "Natural Born Citizen", the original Meaning is still in effect.

(and please don't cite the 14th amendment. That argument is old and silly, as well as false.)

Still think it's "Bovine excrement", or are you up to speed now?

Diogenes, I am beginning to... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Diogenes, I am beginning to believe there are those for whom edification is not an option. They are among the posters who display their works here.

Diogenes, I am beginning... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Diogenes, I am beginning to believe there are those for whom edification is not an option. They are among the posters who display their works here.

86. Posted by Zelsdorf Ragshaft III | April 23, 2010 11:19 AM


This is true. However, I feel it is my civic duty to attempt to lead people to knowledge, especially concerning an issue so critical to the well being of the nation and our families.

While many will put up a brave front, including mockery, they privately learn things they did not know, and perhaps will not be so quick to assert their positions in future discussions. Eventually, with enough cowboys riding roundup, the herd will change direction.

How else can we fight ignorance and lies but with facts and the truth?

:)

Ok, I admit it! Ob... (Below threshold)
914:

Ok, I admit it!

Obama was born in the backroom of a Hiroshima scientific genetic rehab experimental plutonium based reserach facility..

Ok, I admit it!... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Ok, I admit it!

Obama was born in the backroom of a Hiroshima scientific genetic rehab experimental plutonium based reserach facility..

88. Posted by 914 | April 23, 2010 11:48 AM


This is some of that mockery I mentioned earlier.

Incorrect 914, he claims to... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Incorrect 914, he claims to have been born in Hawaii, however not both of his parents were U.S. citizens. His mother conferred upon him his citizen status. Problem is not his natural citizen status but the fact he fails to meet the criteria of natural born citizen which requires both parents be U.S. Citizens, either natural or naturalized. Why is that such a hard concept to realize? The framers did not want the commander in chief to have the possiblity of loyalties other than to the United States. Hussein Obama, by his own writings has misplaced his loyalty.

Incorrect 914, he claims... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Incorrect 914, he claims to have been born in Hawaii, however not both of his parents were U.S. citizens. His mother conferred upon him his citizen status. Problem is not his natural citizen status but the fact he fails to meet the criteria of natural born citizen which requires both parents be U.S. Citizens, either natural or naturalized. Why is that such a hard concept to realize? The framers did not want the commander in chief to have the possiblity of loyalties other than to the United States. Hussein Obama, by his own writings has misplaced his loyalty.

90. Posted by Zelsdorf Ragshaft III | April 23, 2010 12:16 PM


what is imminently funny is that Prior to 1920, the Wife's citizenship was AUTOMATICALLY the same as the Husband. As long as the Husban was an American Citizen, so was the wife!

This means that only the Father's citizenship needed to be American for the child to be considered a "Natural Born Citizen".

After the 1920, (with the passage of the 19th amendment) Women were granted (by statute) more rights, such as the right to own land, etc. As a result, women had the right to pass on their citizenship to their child, necessitating BOTH parents being American Citizens to meet the Article II "Natural Born Citizen" requirement!

Too funny!

So the Alinski tactic of de... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

So the Alinski tactic of demonizing the opposition, in this case those who claim Obama is not eligible to hold the office of President of the U.S., has worked in that calling people birthers and the misdirection concerning his birth certificate seems to have worked. It is not important whether or not Obama was born in Kenya but the fact his father was a subject of the Crown (British) has been obscured. I am calling for Obama to resign, or be impeached. He is a constitutional lawyer and should know better. This further shows his utter disregard for our laws as laid out by the constitution.

"He is a constitutional ... (Below threshold)
999991111144444:

"He is a constitutional lawyer and should know better. This further shows his utter disregard for our laws as laid out by the constitution."


He's a lawyer first and foremost Zelsdorf, dont forget it!


So, Diogenes, you dismiss m... (Below threshold)

So, Diogenes, you dismiss my interpretation based on my stylistic choice for expressing it. Do you quibble with the substance -- that Marc's children do not enjoy each and every single right and privilege that I do, as an American citizen born of two American citizens and within the United States?

J.

Not everyone, JT is qualifi... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Not everyone, JT is qualified, by law, to be eligible to every elected office. If Marc's children are not born of two U.S. citizens, that does not make them second class citizens it just makes them ineligible to hold the office of President of the United States. I did not write the rules, but I understand why they were written and what they say. Why is that a problem for you? There is only one office for which this requirement exists. It is considered by some to be the most influential office a person can hold. That it requires a person to be born of two citizens does not seem unreasonable all things considered. Are you planning to run for the office? Guess you are eligible, if you are 35 years old.

Zelsdorf, if there are two ... (Below threshold)

Zelsdorf, if there are two citizens who do not share the same rights and privileges, then they are different classes of citizens. And if one class of citizen has a right or privilege and another does not, then quantifying it as "first class" and "second class" is accurate.

I understand the distinction between naturalized vs. native citizens, and accept that. Further subdividing native citizens rankles me to a great degree.

Simply put, Zelsdorf, if I can exercise more rights as an American citizen since birth than Marc's daughters can, also citizens since birth, then I have a superior level of citizenship than they do. Conversely, their citizenship is inferior to mine. And I find that, quite frankly, utterly at odds with the American ideal of equality.

Why I find the whole notion appalling is simple enough. The real question is, why don't others?

J.

So the fact Marc's daughter... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

So the fact Marc's daughters are not qualified to hold the office of President of the United States of America, due to the fact Marc chose to marry someone who is not a citizen and in doing so if he took a civics class had to know any offsping would have this one limitation somehow rankles you suggests you have Obama like skin. Not color but thickness. Ramsey, in 1789 pretty clearly made the reason why this requirement was put there. Seems the difference between 1st and 2nd class citizenship comes down to one thing and that is all. There is time JT. You can start a drive to amend the constitution. Ooops that part cannot be amended. Must hold a constitutional convention to write a new one. Bet there are lots of progressives who like that idea. There are a number of things they would change.

You're right, Zelsdorf. Tho... (Below threshold)

You're right, Zelsdorf. Those dumb girls of Marc's should have known better than to be born under those circumstances. Serves them right.

And I should just revel in my inherent superiority over those lesser, not-quite-as-American-as-I-am peons.

But you're unequivocally wrong on one point: NO part of the Constitution is sacrosanct from the amendment process. Any part of it can be changed -- if the process is followed.

J.

So, Diogenes, you dismis... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

So, Diogenes, you dismiss my interpretation based on my stylistic choice for expressing it. Do you quibble with the substance -- that Marc's children do not enjoy each and every single right and privilege that I do, as an American citizen born of two American citizens and within the United States?

J.

94. Posted by Jay Tea | April 23, 2010 1:22 PM

They enjoy each and every privilege afforded to all American "Natural Born Citizens" but one. The Ability to serve as either President or Vice President.

Other than that, they are exactly equal. Prior to 1920, when the Citizenship of the Wife was automatically the same as the wife, they would even meet this requirement. Since women won the right to pass down their citizenship independently of their husbands, it now requires BOTH parents to be American Citizens.


Why I find the whole not... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Why I find the whole notion appalling is simple enough. The real question is, why don't others?

J.

96. Posted by Jay Tea | April 23, 2010 2:18 PM

How do you feel about slaves being 3/5ths of a person? Do you find that appalling?

Now tell me that is NOT in the constitution.

Some people find the "right to bear arms" appalling. My point to you is that it doesn't matter if it is "appalling" or not, THAT IS WHAT IS IN THERE!

Don't like it? Amend it! Don't lie about what it really means.

You're right, Zelsdorf. ... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

You're right, Zelsdorf. Those dumb girls of Marc's should have known better than to be born under those circumstances. Serves them right.

Why are you calling them "dumb"? (fallacy of appeal to emotion.)


And I should just revel in my inherent superiority over those lesser, not-quite-as-American-as-I-am peons.
(fallacy of appeal to emotion.)


But you're unequivocally wrong on one point: NO part of the Constitution is sacrosanct from the amendment process. Any part of it can be changed -- if the process is followed.

J.

98. Posted by Jay Tea | April 23, 2010 3:07 PM


Glory Hallelujah! You do understand THAT part. Do you understand the part about Original intent? Even the parts you don't like such as 3/5ths of a person?

Diogenes, "it's just the sa... (Below threshold)

Diogenes, "it's just the same except for one detail" means it's NOT the same.

And the "3/5 of a person" is NOT part of the Constitution. It was, and it was disgusting, but then an amendment (and a civil war) corrected that.

Amendments literally rewrite the Constitution. Semantically, they're separate from the body, but legally and practically they're all as much as the Constitution as the Articles.

J.

JT I had more respect for y... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

JT I had more respect for you before this little discussion. Now I think you and AB have more in common than most here realize. It is not Marc's children who are responsible for their status as natual citizens as opposed to natural born citizens. That responsiblity fall upon their parents who, if Marc's wife had chosen to become a citizen before they tied the knot, would enabled their offspring to be eligible for the office of Pres. or VP. However that is not the case. What I fail to understand is why you think this requirement is repugnant? Do you think every citizen, no matter, should be qualified to be President? When the rules are not strickly followed we end up with a Barack Hussein Obama Jr. We don't know a whole lot about him. We do know he surely does not understand the office he holds. Pelosi lied when she said Obama was eligible to be President of the United States. But then when you have a President who bows to foreign leaders, he really does not understand the office he holds.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft<blo... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Zelsdorf Ragshaft

And children of citizens of the Untied States , that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the Untied States shall be considered as natural born citizens: provided That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose father have never been resident in the United States:

So Marc
1. American citizen ,
2. The father
3. l Resided in the United States

Therefore his daughters are Natural Born Citizens
Naturalization Act 1790

This of course refers back to law of nations.
http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/vattel/vatt-119.htm


Which really only cared about Fathers.

Now it also states that each Country has the right to make its own laws about Citizenship and what Citizens can hold office.
The USA has done so through acts that define who Citizens are.

The debate will continue because both sides have some valid points and their is no final thump card.

Chest Arthur was president
American Mother
Irish Dad and was he born in British Subject?


The 3/5 comprise was not ab... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

The 3/5 comprise was not about the worth of person but about limiting the size of congress. Since the Census was taken every year and Congress which was the general representative Body. (Senators were appointed by states) They did not want to have over representation by the southern slaving owning states.

104. Posted by hcddbz | ... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

104. Posted by hcddbz | April 23, 2010 4:00 PM

So Marc
1. American citizen ,
2. The father
3. l Resided in the United States

Therefore his daughters are Natural Born Citizens
Naturalization Act 1790

An act of congress cannot overide a constitutional requirement. That takes a constitutional amendment.

The debate will continue because both sides have some valid points and their is no final thump card.

I disagree. The other side has not presented a single valid point. They have simply reiterated prevailing fallacies.

Chest Arthur was president
American Mother
Irish Dad and was he born in British Subject?

This is known after the fact, and was deduced years after Chester A Arthur was no longer President. Chester A Arthur made every effort to conceal the fact that his Father was Irish because he knew full well what the ramifications of that would be if it became known.

The 3/5 comprise was not... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

The 3/5 comprise was not about the worth of person but about limiting the size of congress. Since the Census was taken every year and Congress which was the general representative Body. (Senators were appointed by states) They did not want to have over representation by the southern slaving owning states.

105. Posted by hcddbz | April 23, 2010 4:14 PM

My point, (and tell me if I'm wrong) is that it doesn't matter WHY something is in there. If it's in there, we can't pretend it isn't.

DiogenesLamp |Part o... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

DiogenesLamp |
Part of the Argument that has been presented is that we have to view the document in the context of the time period. The Act was done in 1790 so it is obvious that it is the same time period.

Ramsey did not make the recommendation nor was in attendance when the issue was debated so his interpretation is after the fact as well and is no more valid nor invalid then the members of the first congress some of who were actually there.

Second the Law that is created matches the source document that Ramsey is using for his argument.

So now one needs to goto the Source which is The Law of Nations
Chapter X1X:

Now when one reads the entire chapter one can come draw two concussions in narrow scope NBC is parents or look at the entirety of the document one would see that it single parent which is the father.

So in the case Marc children are NBC.

It up to a country to craft the laws that constitute its citizenship and as such I feel INA does that.

It depends on perspective and interruption of source material because there is not a clear definition.


The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country

It is asked whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed.(59) By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights (§ 212); the place of birth produces no change in this particular, and cannot, of itself, furnish any reason for taking from a child what nature has given him; I say "of itself," for, civil or political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise. But I suppose that the father has not entirely quitted his country in order to settle elsewhere. If he has fixed his abode in a foreign country, he is become a member of another society, at least as a perpetual inhabitant; and his children will be members of it also.


For the same reasons also, children born out of the country, in the armies of the state, or in the house of its minister at a foreign court, are reputed born in the country; for a citizen who is absent with his family, on the service of the state, but still dependent on it, and subject to its jurisdiction, cannot be considered as having quitted its territory

Want to blow your mind on t... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

Want to blow your mind on the meaning of "Natural Born Citizen" as used in the constitution?

Check out this guy's documentation. The man is a fricken genius!

http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

This guy has citations that will explain more than you ever WANTED to know about the meaning of "Natural Born Citizen."

DiogenesLamp ,I fi... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

DiogenesLamp ,

I find his article to b lacking because of the omission of The Laws of Nation. which was published in 1758 and does contain phrase natural born citizen. . Furthermore it defines Citizen, Inhabitants, Naturalization.

The founders rejected Blackwell which argued that the constitution could be changed by using Vattels work. Jefferson had copies of the Law of Nation sent out in 1775.
Parts of the Declaration and Constitution reason are taken directly from it. So for a researcher to leave it out of consideration especially where one could use it to argue for their case does not impress me.


DiogenesLamp - "I am be... (Below threshold)
Marc:

DiogenesLamp - "I am beginning to suspect that any place you visit is bovine excrement."

Not true, but I'm making this simple exception:

Any place that contains a comment from you is Bovine Excrement.

DiogenesLamp - "I am beg... (Below threshold)
DiogenesLamp:

DiogenesLamp - "I am beginning to suspect that any place you visit is bovine excrement."

Not true, but I'm making this simple exception:

Any place that contains a comment from you is Bovine Excrement.

111. Posted by Marc


Not everything which is opaque to you is bovine excrement. You just need to acquire more knowledge, and you'll be alright.


Marc, if it is bovine excre... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Marc, if it is bovine excretement you find attractive (you must because you seem to continually comment here). Is the aroma or are you here for dinner? Since your edification is out of the question.




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