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"The president... is chronically detached from the central and immediate concerns of his countrymen"

Peggy Noonan has lost her Obama mojo:

I don't see how the president's position and popularity can survive the oil spill. This is his third political disaster in his first 18 months in office. And they were all, as they say, unforced errors, meaning they were shaped by the president's political judgment and instincts.

There was the tearing and unnecessary war over his health-care proposal and its cost. There was his day-to-day indifference to the views and hopes of the majority of voters regarding illegal immigration. And now the past almost 40 days of dodging and dithering in the face of an environmental calamity. I don't see how you politically survive this.

The president, in my view, continues to govern in a way that suggests he is chronically detached from the central and immediate concerns of his countrymen. This is a terrible thing to see in a political figure, and a startling thing in one who won so handily and shrewdly in 2008. But he has not, almost from the day he was inaugurated, been in sync with the center. The heart of the country is thinking each day about A, B and C, and he is thinking about X, Y and Z. They're in one reality, he's in another.

Why in hell only now Ms. Noonan is waking up to this reality is a question for another time I guess but for now, we'll relish the notion that yet another of his supporters are finally seeing what the rest of us knew shortly after we checked the man out.

Welcome to our "one reality" Peggy.

With props to colleague Michael Laprarie.

Crossposted at Brutally Honest.


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Comments (127)

Obama and BP are joined at ... (Below threshold)
Neo:

Obama and BP are joined at the hip.

So Peggy Noonan is waking u... (Below threshold)
jim m:

So Peggy Noonan is waking up to what I have been saying for over a year now: That obama does not understand other people as persons. He does not see others as individuals with value, but only as members of a group. People only have value as part of some group he can use politically. If a person becomes a liability he throws them under the bus.

Welcome to the party Peggy. The rest of us have been living with the sociopath in chief for a year and a half already.

"...he is chronically detac... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"...he is chronically detached from the central and immediate concerns of his countrymen...."

But..but...but...Peggy! He was so 'cool and detached'. Didn't you on the left ADMIRE him for that?

"...but he has not, almost from the day he was inaugurated, been in sync with the center."

If you'd done your job, Peggy, and done some digging, you'd have found that he's always been way LEFT. Now you want to talk about the CENTER?

News Flash!, Peggy. You've been had! Enjoy! Enjoy because you and your 'intellectual elite' friends supported and enabled him. You sold your souls and your credibility. Remember what Barry said about 'people projecting what they WANT to see in me'. Well good ol' Barry never went out of his way to correct those projections, did he?

Ooo looks like the blinders... (Below threshold)
Stan:

Ooo looks like the blinders are finally coming off the RINOs that voted for "Walks On Water" Does anyone sense a major case of buyers remorse here? Too bad the lemon law does not apply to politicians also. If it did there would be a lot of lemons returned.

Peggy sold her soul when sh... (Below threshold)
Jvette:

Peggy sold her soul when she supported the most pro-abortion candidate for president in history.
Her admiration and relationship with JPII was not enough to save her as she fell under the spell of the Obamination. Screw her, I am not interested in her awakening now.

Are the worms turning?... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Are the worms turning?

CHRIS MATTHEWS: Let`s take a look at Rush -- I have to do this -- Rush Limbaugh today impersonating Bill Clinton and assessing the situation (Sestak-gate). Let`s listen to Rushbo.
ANDREA MITCHELL: Oh dear!
(VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS MATTHEWS: Well sometimes even he can get it right. That was pretty good lampooning, I`ve got to say.

Chris Matthews AGREEING with Rush Limbaugh?

Did the earth just move?

Wassamatta, Peggy...no more... (Below threshold)
OLDPUPPYMAX:

Wassamatta, Peggy...no more leg tingles??

Oil spill, Sestakgate...the... (Below threshold)
Michael:

Oil spill, Sestakgate...the wheels are coming off the Obama regime. So funny!

These dummies never suspect... (Below threshold)
JB:

These dummies never suspected they were helping elect a narcissistic psychopath to the WH. Our elites are completely worthless.

To quote Fred Thompson in a... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

To quote Fred Thompson in a movie, IIRC, "This will grow out of hand very quickly."

This is not going to be a very good holiday weekend for the Obama Administration. I imagine that the satellite hookups between Axelrod, Rahm and THE ONE are burning up.

The MFM has shown the depth of their ethics. Like any bottom feeders, they can sense blood in the water.

Right now, James 'The Skull' Carvelle, Peggy Noonan and Chris Matthews are chumming the waters. That's the funny part, LIBERALS are chumming the waters!

Killer quote from Peggy:</p... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Killer quote from Peggy:

"That it is his fault is no comfort."

That will leave a mark!

"...he is chronically de... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

"...he is chronically detached from the central and immediate concerns of his countrymen...."

Well, he hasn't lived in Indonesia in a long time.

Caveat emptor.... (Below threshold)
Caesar Augustus:

Caveat emptor.

#12Hahahahahahahah... (Below threshold)
914:

#12

Hahahahahahahahah!

The scapegoater in chief can try as he may to separate himself from his stinky mistress in the gulf but it to late, the die is cast. Your history Barry, just like Carter before you as the worst president evah! He is now a distant 2nd to you Your hindness..

Personally, Im just relieve... (Below threshold)
LiberalNitemare:

Personally, Im just relieved that you guys made sure he had an experianced vice presidential candidate on the ticket to help him avoid this kind of mistake.

Way to go democrats!

To quote Fred Thompson i... (Below threshold)
Stan:

To quote Fred Thompson in a movie, IIRC, "This will grow out of hand very quickly."

From the movie The Hunt For Red October

Just how far out of hand do... (Below threshold)
914:

Just how far out of hand does this have to get before Barry decides to come down to earth and save us all?

Peggy Noonan is a conservat... (Below threshold)
Lagtime:

Peggy Noonan is a conservative who just went ape over Sarah Palin. Ms. Palin's lack of intellect and experience were among her faults. Andy McCarthy over in the Corner was one of those who questioned Noonan about what she was saying. Here we have the guy who was at the top of the ticket showing why we should not have someone without "executive" experience in the Big Office. Yet Noonan was "obsessed" with Palin. This type of elitest "conservatives" was part of the problem.
The focus was never on Obama and what his abilty and intellect really were. Image running a small business in the neighborhood mall the way this guy runs the Executive Branch. He never worked a full day in anything he ever did. He never ran anything except for the Annenberg Study and we still do not know what happened to all that money. (See articles by Stanley Kurtz).
You think Palin would not be better on the Gulf Coast for this situation. She stood up to Oil companies and evironmentalists alike when she was the one who had to make decisions.

Sorry to be so long.

There is a lot of anger ove... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

There is a lot of anger over the way the BP oil spill cleanup and capping efforts has been dragging on and on. Some of it is being directed at Obama.

It's never been the US Government's responsibility to cap the well.

I guarantee that if the feds stepped in and pushed BP aside the teabaggers would be screaming about excessive government "boot on neck" response - just as this blog complained and supported those who complained that the feds were being too hard on BP.

No question that there are lessons to be learned from this disaster.

- Fine BP to the max.

- Impose a tax on every offshore oil barrel produced.

Take those fines and taxes and create an elite Coast Guard disaster response and cleanup unit that will train on responsding and dealing with fure problems like this.

You'll notice that nobody on the right has proposed solutions - they are, as usual, whining and wringing their pretty little hands and throwing as much blame as they can at the black man in the White House.

"Just how far out of hand d... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

"Just how far out of hand does this have to get before Barry decides to come down to earth and save us all?"

Well 914, we shouldn't be expecting anything this weekend, His Won-ness is on a much deserved and needed vacation.

Perhaps he can scrap out a little time for us after he completes next year's wreath laying ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown. Between now and then his calendar is pretty tight. It's an election year you know.

There is a lot ... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

There is a lot of anger over the way the BP oil spill cleanup and capping efforts has been dragging on and on. Some of it is being directed at Obama.

Most of which is coming from the leftists, actually, based on environmental concerns. (See, e.g., the Chris Mathews clip making the rounds today.) The Americans' criticism of Obama arises from his detachment from this and other issues that affect ordinary Americans. Lots of people were hurting in this country before this happened, and more are hurting now from this oil spill (for which I do not blame Obama at all), but Buraq is seen to be gobbling down the wagyu beef, vacationing, and working on his (shitty) golf game.

Realistically, there's nothing Buraq could actually do about the oil spill, and I have no doubt BP is, and has been, doing everything it can. But for once I agree with Chris Mathews: he needs to act as though this is a big deal, and he hasn't.

Leadership, I believe it's called.

IMHO, Obama's reaction to t... (Below threshold)
JPO:

IMHO, Obama's reaction to this oil spill reveals much more than incompetence. The reason he is so "detached" is b/c he doesn't love this country the way past presidents have--even the liberal Democratic ones, as misguided as they might have been. Competent or not, a president who truly loved this country would have been in the thick of things from the beginning of this spill trying to push everyone involved towards a solution. Does anyone know if he ever even payed lip service to the flood victims in Tennessee?

>>- Impose a tax on every o... (Below threshold)
LiberalNitemare:

>>- Impose a tax on every offshore oil barrel produced.

Take those fines and taxes and create an elite Coast Guard disaster response and cleanup unit that will train on responsding and dealing with fure problems like this.

I have a better idea - how about Obama hangs up the golf clubs, quits trying to cover his ass, and takes charge of the elite Coast Guard disaster response and cleanup unit that we already have?

>>You'll notice that nobody on the right has proposed solutions - they are, as usual, whining and wringing their pretty little hands and throwing as much blame as they can at the black man in the White House.

The problem here is not the response from the people on the right - its the lack of response from the entire administration.

From the president down the response has been nothing but CYA - hoping to avoid a Katrina event for the president has instead created one.

A stupid argument by the way - but I do commend you for working two strawmen into the same bullet point. At least your efficient.

lee WardJust readi... (Below threshold)
Retired military:

lee Ward

Just reading your drivel drops my IQ 100 points.

"It's never been the US Government's responsibility to cap the well."

When Obama says it is his responsibility (which he has) than it becomes the govts responsibility.

"I guarantee that if the feds stepped in...hard on BP."

What are the feds going to do? They dont have the experts and the equipment to stop the leak. BP does. Which is why the feds needs to control the oil (which they have the expertise and equipment) spill as much as possible to keep it from doing as much damage as possible. They havent done this. And in fact they are getting in the way of folks like Jindel who have a plan and cant get it approved by the feds.

"Fine BP to the max."

Yeah that goes over well after they won a safety award. How about making them pay for the clean up and calling it even.

"Impose a tax on every offshore oil barrel produced."

Sure have gas go up to $5 a gallon. Way to kill the economy there. Or we can just send more money overseas buying oil from them instead of producing it ourselves.

What an idiot.


"Take those fines and taxes and create an elite Coast Guard disaster response and cleanup unit that will train on responsding and dealing with fure problems like this."

Who will sit around for years trainind and not doing anything else since this is the first spill in at least 5 years. How about implementing the plan they had in place in the first place? Oh wait they cant do that. We have to create an "Elite team" to do something which private industry already has people for.

Once again talk about solving a problem and doing nothing about it.

"You'll notice that nobody on the right has proposed solutions "

Gee I would love to offer solutions. Why dont you pay for me to go to school for the next 15 years to learn all about the problems? Jindel has proposed stuff and it is bogged down in Beaurocracy (sorta like our health care will be 4 years from now).


"they are, as usual, whining and wringing their pretty little hands"

Gee the statement "fix the damn hole" comes to mind here.


" and throwing as much blame as they can at the black man in the White House. "

Oh no the race card. Just because he is black doesnt mean that he is not imcompetent as a leader. In fact, the only person who has raised his race in this discussion has been umm You. Maybe we should start talking about how much Obama hates the black man since he is allowing the oil to damage so much of Louisiana's shores. I mean hell, libs did it for Bush with Katrina.

Again, lee, Please leave the discussion so the average IQ on the threads here can go up at least 50 points.

I would like to exhibit sym... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I would like to exhibit sympathy for the BP oil mess but since the left showed utter disregard for the protocol for federal assistance during Katrina just for political points, I am heaping on Obama. 40 days from the start of the spill to when Obama appeared to the national audience to answer questions. That is not leadership. That is hiding. He cannot find anyone to blame. And of course the left's first suggestion is to "tax" every barrel of oil to form an elite oil spill Coast Guard. How about we retrofit the current branch and train them on handling disasters of this type.

Obama's total lack of experience in any executive position is showing big time. I am embarrassed for my country. Obama has earned every bit of criticisim he is getting plus some. He should vacation now, he is just in the way of correcting things. ww

retired military: :lee W... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

retired military: :lee Ward - Just reading your drivel drops my IQ 100 points."

Shame. That must put in you into negative numbers, by a good 30 points or so.

"When Obama says it is his responsibility (which he has) than it becomes the govts responsibility."

Yes after 40 day sof BP failure there's talk of taking over the oversight for the cleanup.

However, a BP spokesman today admitted that capping the well and cleaning up hte mess is purely and 100% BP's responsibility.

Liek I said - it's the law...

WSJ:

"Much of the command structure for the spill response is dictated by law. The Oil Pollution Act of 1990 mandates the structure of a National Response Team, now headed by Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano; a National Incident Commander, Adm. Allen; and an on-site coordinator, Coast Guard Adm. Mary Landry.

But that law gives BP primary responsibility to prepare for such an event: lining up contractors to supply boom and skimmers and deploying them when needed, then controlling any accident and cleaning it up.

Teabaggers and Republicans would love to dump this on Obama, and what Obama did say is that he would now take repsosnibility for solving this...

The US president reiterated that he would hold BP accountable for the costs of the oil spill but he took ultimate responsibility for resolving the disaster.

"I ultimately take responsibility for solving this crisis," Mr Obama said during the visit to inspect oil spill damage. "I am the president and the buck stops with me."

And he will see it through, but you can't have it both ways. Asshats can't whine and complain about intrusive big government then wring your delicate little retired military hands and complain that the feds haven't stepped in and taken over.

It's a simple rule - be careful what you wish for. Want a smaller role for the federal government? Want little or no regulation over the oil industry? Want more "corporate responsibility" and less "Nanny state"? Then don't complain when you get what you ask for.

Regarding my idea about the Coast Guard elite disaster response team idea, retired military says:

Who will sit around for years trainind and not doing anything else since this is the first spill in at least 5 years.

Can't think your way through this, can you?

Let me help.

Police patrol on the watch for crime.

Your local fire department sits in a fire house waiting for the alarm to go off.

That's the way it works. Put down the teabag and think...

BP has it's own disaster response team now - funded through oil revenues and paid by you and I every time we buy BP gasoline -- and they've been pretty ineffective so far.

Let's change the law and take responsibility for response and cleanup away from the oil industry and make the Coast Guard responsible for those efforts - funding it with a tax on offshore oil produced and fines from events like this.

But Republicans like retired military aren't interested in solving problems. They're interested in doing all they can to get the black man out of the White House.

They want Obama to be at fault for the problem, but they don't want to give the federal government the regulations to do a better job of preventing future spills, and they want to blame the feds for not fixing problems yet are unwilling to tax the oil companies to pay for it.

We're faulting Obama becaus... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

We're faulting Obama because he hasn't delivered. He should make the seas recede - as he promised - then take five loaves (forget the fishes), mulitply them, and use them to soak up the oil, and then heal the earth, as he also promised. All in a day's work for the Messiah.

" and throwing as much blam... (Below threshold)
jim m:

" and throwing as much blame as they can at the black man in the White House. "

Of course the fact that Chris Matthews from the all white MSNBC coming out and criticizing obama isn't racist, because everyone knows that the only racists are conservatives. (never mind that the dems have stood in the way of every single major piece of legislation to advance minority rights since before the Civil War)

They want Obama to... (Below threshold)
jim m:
They want Obama to be at fault for the problem, but they don't want to give the federal government the regulations to do a better job of preventing future spills, and they want to blame the feds for not fixing problems yet are unwilling to tax the oil companies to pay for it.

No Lee you're wrong. We blame obama because he and his administration have stood in the way of getting things done. They have blocked BP's efforts to use dispersants. They dawdled when they had pre-approved disaster plans that they could have put into effect. They were incompetent.

We want the feds to get out of the way. It was BP who implemented the top kill not the feds.

We want the feds to stop creating disasters like this by allowing drilling to take place in shallower water where these kinds of accidents are less likely to happen. We want the obama to get out of the way, but like most libs he sees this as an opportunity o raise taxes and forbid people from doing things safer or even at all.

Jay Guevara -"L... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jay Guevara -

"Leadership, I believe it's called."

I think Obama knows that word, but hasn't a clue about what it actually means, or implies for his Presidency. Certainly he never showed much BEFORE in his career.

Why start now? He's never needed it in the past!

To quote Lee Ward's Obamass... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

To quote Lee Ward's Obamassiah, in speaking 'truth to power' in New Orleans, while conveniently tarring the Bush response to Katrina:

NEVER AGAIN! NEVER AGAIN!

Well, Lee, looks like NEVER just showed up.

And to add to JPO's comment, when did a "concerned" Barry every say/do anything to 'focus' the country on the FLOODS in Tennessee?
Oh, that's right, maybe they didn't BEG hard enough!

Don't worry folks, the roll... (Below threshold)
glenn:

Don't worry folks, the rollover media will get Barry through this little bad patch by just ignoring it.

LeeYou should real... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Lee

You should really watch the race allegations. You know nothing about me. I have a step daughter that is biracial. Just like Obama.

So stop with the black man crap that you are spewing.

You mentioned cops and firemen. Let me ask. Do you have 1 cop per every 200 people? 1 fire house per every 200 houses? That is about how many oil wells are out in the ocean give or take. Do you have one crime every 5 years? One fire every 5 years?

Even if there were a thousand wells you would still be way off.

And after reading 2 of your posts yeah that makes my IQ about a neg 30. Which is still about 200 points higher than yours.


BTW Lee"They want ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

BTW Lee

"They want Obama to be at fault for the problem,"

Actually we would like to see some leadership. He has exhibited none.


"but they don't want to give the federal government the regulations to do a better job of preventing future spills, "

Regulations, like laws, are nothing but words on paper if you dont enforce them. The Obama administration gave this rig a waiver just a few weeks before. Are you going to blame Bush on that one?


"and they want to blame the feds for not fixing problems "

We want the feds to get the hell out of the way. Just ask Bobby Jindel.


"yet are unwilling to tax the oil companies to pay for it.
"

You mean tax us. Any tax on BP will be passed on to the consumer. You are not hurting them one bit. You are hurting us because we will wind up paying it through higher gas prices, higher costs of tires, and other petroleum products. I havent heard one republican say BP shouldnt pay for the clean up. Not one. But fines on companies are paid by the consumer. Want to fine the CEOs pay? the board of directors pay? That is fine by me. But keep your grubby liberal hands out of my pockets.

Ok Lee, Jessie Jackson, Al ... (Below threshold)
Stan:

Ok Lee, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and Calypso Louie are calling you on the phone. Seems that your last talking points did not set too well with them. Be careful, to follow the talking points to the letter the next time or you will get docked a day's pay.

Lee, when you called Obama ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Lee, when you called Obama a pathological liar, was it because he was black?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! HILA... (Below threshold)
Drago:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! HILARIOUS!

Here we go:

Lee Ward: "Let's change the law and take responsibility for response and cleanup away from the oil industry and make the Coast Guard responsible for those efforts - funding it with a tax on offshore oil produced and fines from events like this."

What has stopped the Democrats from doing just that from Jan 2009 until now?

IT GETS FUNNIER!

Lee Ward: "They want Obama to be at fault for the problem, but they don't want to give the federal government the regulations to do a better job of preventing future spills, and they want to blame the feds for not fixing problems yet are unwilling to tax the oil companies to pay for it."

There was nothing, NOTHING, stopping the dems from doing just that since Jan 09.

Lee, why didn't the dems do that?

Where is the link to the Law that the poor, helpless li'l dems wanted to pass that the big bad republicans kept from getting passed?

Where Lee?

Where is it?

You made an assertion. Where is the evidence?

How sad for Lee and his ilk that now, there really is no one else to blame and they have to actually start shouldering some responsibility.

Expect more screaming from the perpetually-infantile left as they find all their political "tools" simply can't be used effectively when they have been running the whole show for a year and a half, and the entire congressional show since 2007.

Maybe we should start ta... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Maybe we should start talking about how much Obama hates the black man since he is allowing the oil to damage so much of Louisiana's shores. I mean hell, libs did it for Bush with Katrina.

Barack Obama hates black people.

/Kayne West

Drago... to continue your t... (Below threshold)
Marc:

Drago... to continue your theme:

Why, WHY did obummer suggest massive cuts to the Coast Guard?

The trouble with Obama (and... (Below threshold)
retired military:

The trouble with Obama (and Lee Ward's) vision of America is this.

When things go great Govt takes the accolades. When shit goes wrong they want to turn around and say "Hey it isnt my fault".

Case in point. Lee Ward saying "BP should be cleaning up the oil spill because the govt cant" yet he wants to nationalize everything.

But WAIT, there's more...</... (Below threshold)
Marc:

But WAIT, there's more...

The Obama Administration proposed cutting the budget of the Coast Guard Crisis Center 3 months prior to the Gulf Oil Spill.

Three months before the massive BP oil spill erupted in the Gulf of Mexico, the Obama administration proposed downsizing the Coast Guard national coordination center for oil spill responses, prompting its senior officers to warn that the agency's readiness for catastrophic events would be weakened.

That proposal is feeding a mounting debate over whether the federal government is able to regulate deep-sea oil extraction. Defense analysts and retired agency leaders question whether the Coast Guard -- which shares oversight of offshore drilling with the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service -- has the expertise and resources to keep pace with industry advances.

Accidents happen, "but what you're seeing here is the government is not properly set up to deal with this kind of issue," said Robbin Laird, a defense consultant who has worked on Coast Guard issues. "The idea that you would even think about getting rid of catastrophic environmental spill equipment or expertise at the Department of Homeland Security, are you kidding me?"

"Cutting a strike team is nuts," said Stephen Flynn, a former Coast Guard commander and now president of the Center for National Policy, a Washington think tank. "Whether it's an accident of man or an act of terrorism, it requires almost the exact same skill set to clean it up."

lee ward... why does obama hate both the Gulf Coast state and the environment?

Well I can see Lee won't be... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Well I can see Lee won't be back for this thread!

"why does obama hate both t... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"why does obama hate both the Gulf Coast state and the environment?"

Honestly, I don't think that he hates them. It's just that he doesn't care. Obama wants to rule over everyone and not be bothered with the messy details of actually doing the things he wants done. He wants to dictate the way the world should be and have his sycophants make it so for him.

Local and regional issues are too small for the one. The issues are simply not important to him. He feels that he should be making decisions of how the nation lives it's life, how society is structured. Having to actually deal with a regional crisis that requires direct and forceful action is outside of his understanding.

Charlotte Randolph... (Below threshold)
jim m:
Charlotte Randolph, president of LaFourche Parish, said she spoke to Obama in person during his visit to the oil-stricken region Friday.

"I expressed to the president that we are dying because of the oil spill, but if he allows this suspension to happen it will kill us," she told reporters Saturday, noting that her parish has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country.

Thanks a load Barry. Instead of a serious crisis we can extend the effects to multiple industries and send shock waves throughout the national economy.

I guess this is what they meant by not letting a crisis go to waste. Why let a handful of people be effected when you can use it to put a few million more people into poverty.

I would like to take a mome... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I would like to take a moment and COMMEND Lee Ward's favorite president.

He's consistent!

A man with no record of accomplishments (that we can find); a man with a past track record of spending large amounts of money, accomplishing nothing; a man who intoned that from the moment of his coronation; 'the earth began to heal, the seas began to cease their rise'; was faced with a catastrophic event in the Gulf of Mexico. Seizing the initiative, and donning his cloak of leadership; he began throwing out blame and stepping on necks. When those affected asked for assistance; HIS administration of hand-picked cronies leaped into the fray; citing lengthy government regulations (similar to those that they conveniently waved that caused this catastrophe) - thus prolonging the response time that might have averted or minimized some of the damage.

Have I got that right, Lee?

"Why let a handful of pe... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"Why let a handful of people be effected when you can use it to put a few million more people into poverty."

Think of it as creating more people who will vote for whoever promises the largest handout. They won't question WHERE the money is coming from, for the most part - they'll just vote for the biggest possible reward.

And since the Dems will gladly buy your vote today with a promise of a reward tomorrow, they're going to make out like bandits from this.

Just remember - one man, one vote, one time. That's the ultimate goal, and once it's acheived the Dems will be helping us forever.

Barry's consistent alright.... (Below threshold)
914:

Barry's consistent alright.. He's wrong all the time.

"why does obama ha... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:
"why does obama hate both the Gulf Coast state and the environment?"

Honestly, I don't think that he hates them. It's just that he doesn't care.

If a natural disaster hits Indonesia he'll jump up so fast he'll step on his dick.

Dammit Jay! #48 made me la... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Dammit Jay! #48 made me laugh so hard I spilled my drink.

Jay, Barry's got one? That... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Jay, Barry's got one? That would then lead one to assume he's also got a set. When did that happen?

Lee scuttle back under his ... (Below threshold)
Michael:

Lee scuttle back under his rock to be close to his butt buddy jim x.

Michelle's got those, Garan... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Michelle's got those, Garandfan! She's had 'em for years, and she's not giving them back!

In case you missed the news... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

In case you missed the news conference, the President gets daily, sometimes HOURLY briefings on the situation. He has conferred with some of the most prominent scientists in the field, has been on top of the developments from the first... oh... wait... you don't really care about the truth, though, do you?

And as for getting us here.........well,
the GOP spent 30 years telling us deregulation was great for us.... And suddenly a lot of people are realizing they've been lying all along ......

De-regulation is tremendously expensive when all costs are considered .

So tell me how Obama, or the DEMS blah, blah, blah are to blame....

I have only one thing to say:

Argue for your limitations & they are yours.

Only by changing what we consume & how we live, can we address the root cause of tragedy's like this. If you are not doing your part, you are part of the problem.

"So tell me how Obama, or t... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"So tell me how Obama, or the DEMS blah, blah, blah are to blame...."

Who WAVED the environmental requirements on "Deep Horizon" just WEEKS before the tragedy occurred? What Administration did that? Whose hand-picked cronies were in charge?

Bush has been gone 17 months. So YOU tell us Indiec. WHO was to blame?

"Only by changing what we c... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Only by changing what we consume & how we live, can we address the root cause of tragedy's like this. If you are not doing your part, you are part of the problem."

Do I hear the bleat of the 'environmentalist'? Do it somewhere else! NIMBY! Nuclear power? Not here in LA - but hey!, let's build the plant in Arizona and ship the power here. Do it out of sight. So they're drilling 1 mile down to the ocean floor. Instead of 150 feet in ANWAR. WHERE 99.9% of the population NEVER GOES, NEVER BEEN, and NEVER WILL!

Look in the mirror Indiec if you really want to see "part of the problem".

Indie, this industry has n... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indie, this industry has not been deregulated. The government controls where they drill, when they drill and how they drill. The government controlled how this spill was confronted, although mostly by inaction and delay.

So how are we to take this spectacular example of the failure of government regulation to be a reason to expand that very regulation that failed?

If Barry is so on top of this why did it take so long for them to act? Why when they had pre-approved action plans in the event of a spill did they not activate any of them? Why did they seem to not be aware of them? Why did your precious omnipotent government cut BP a deal that is now being criticized by everyone? Is it because Barry is their biggest beneficiary?

So you are arguing that the government, which failed to apply its regulations consistently, which failed to act when necessary is superior to letting people act on their own and that we need to strengthen government regulation so it won't do what it just did in the future?

What are you smoking/drinking/shooting up? The idea that we need more of what caused the problem is amazingly ignorant. Do you bother to think about these things or did you just follow the dem talking points and give your two brain cells the day off?

Here's the problem, Indiec ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Here's the problem, Indiec - Obama has got all the government's resources at his fingertips. All he had to do early on was make a decision to let the pre-approved oil spill plans go ahead.

He didn't. He wouldn't. Like the seasoned politician he is, he waited to see what would give him the BEST possible leverage on this mess. Because a bad decision would call into question his capability and competence... so he waited.

And all those briefings? They aren't helping, because the more info he has, he sees even MORE ways he can fuck up if he makes a bad decision.

Jindal's berms? He might get the enviros mad at him, disturbing beach and wetland ecosystems - better slow down the approval process for 'em, after all, nobody EVER got in trouble for NOT approving a permit. Fire booms to burn the oil? Wait to deploy those, because it'll get the enviros mad, and the might not be needed in the first place if BP gets it under control. So, wait and see - and a decision will eventually become clear..

Obama doesn't know how to make hard decisions - which is a damn sad thing for a President. If the decision is wrong, or pisses some people off if's it's right - then take the responsibility for it and go on because SOMEBODY has to make the decisions that perk up to Presidential level.

And this poor, sorry sap doesn't know how. The shit hit the fan, and he can't cope.

Like him or loathe him, at least Bush didn't meep and whinge and dither about pissing people off if he made a bad call - he acted on the best info he had, and did what he thought was right.

Obama? I wouldn't be surprised if he has cabinet meetings about what tie he should wear for a particular photo-op.

These areas had been OFF LI... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

These areas had been OFF LIMITS to drilling, until Bush was elected:

1. May 2001. Cheney chaired a secret Energy Task Force, (NEPDG), releasing a document pushing offshore drilling and removing restrictions.

2. August, 2005, the Republican/Bush passed the "Energy Policy Act of 2005" authorizing drilling on the outer continental shelf..

3. December 2006, the Republican/Bush pass the "Gulf of Mexico Energy Security Act" (GOMESA), mandating leasing 7.8 million acres in the Central Gulf, the area of the current spill.

4. April 2007. Bush cleared millions of acres in the "Central Planning Area" for drilling including this site. The EIS downplayed the risks:

"Offshore oil spills resulting from a proposed action in the
WPA are not expected to damage significantly any wetlands
along the Gulf Coast." (Page 83)

"A subsurface blowout would have a negligible effect on GOM
fish resources or commercial fishing." (Page 89)

6. July 2008, Bush lifted the ban on offshore drilling in place for 26 years. Originally passed by congress in 1982, it was expanded in 1990 by Bush's father and Clinton extended it to 2012.

Bush said:

"For years, my administration has been calling on Congress to
expand domestic oil production. Unfortunately, Democrats on
Capitol Hill have rejected virtually every proposal."

"Failure to act is unacceptable. So today, I've
issued a memorandum to lift the executive prohibition on oil
exploration in the Outer Continental Shelf."

"James 'The Skull' Carve... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"James 'The Skull' Carvelle"

I'd never heard that one. I always thought of him more along the lines of being Gollum-like.

Those filthy little Republicanses. They tricksied us!

"what the rest of us knew s... (Below threshold)
Scrapiron:

"what the rest of us knew shortly after we checked the man out" That is a major problem, either the democrats can't or won't read the man's history, including his own written words. Mention a fact to a dhimmi who voted for him and the standard remark is 'I didn't know that',

Indie,Those areas ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indie,

Those areas were off limits due to government regulation you dope. The same government regulation that is the proximate cause of the problem.

Mind you that deep water oil drilling is far riskier than doing he same at lower depths or on land, both of which the government still bans for the most part.

SO you take the fact that the government manages to lift regulation over he riskiest area to drill as evidence that drilling should be illegal everywhere all the time. I'm sorry but for anyone with a brain he obvious answer is to drill in places where that risk does not exist. Open up areas on land to drill! We have huge resources that the dems for the most part have regulated to be off limits. You want safe oil production stop outlawing it in the safer areas.

Again, you only manage to point out how ineffective and inefficient government regulation has been. Government intervention is what brought us this problem. More of it is not the solution.

In response to the current ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

In response to the current oil spill and WHO is responsible, Indiec replies:

BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH!!!!!!!!!!

NEWS FLASH!! President Bush has been out of office 17 months! Barack Obama is in charge!
Or didn't you know that Indiec?

Come up with something 'new... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Come up with something 'new' Indiec. We get bored real easy with those who only engage in verbal masturbation.

It might make YOU feel good, but it doesn't ACCOMPLISH anything.

And just why are we having ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

And just why are we having to DRILL in such deep waters, Indiec?

Could it be because THERE'S NO PLACE ELSE WHERE IT'S ALLOWED?

The enviro's have got drilling on land pretty well blocked, as well as drilling in shallow sea-bed oil fields. Oil goes up to $140 a barrel - and the world economy staggers like a man hit in the head with a five-pound hammer. Everything depends on oil.

Use that gray matter between your ears for something other than a spacer to keep 'em apart. Oil is the LIFEBLOOD of our civilization - it drives transportation, it provides manufacturing feedstocks - we can't do without it. Take it away, and we're back in the late 1800s... and we simply have too many people to go back to a rural agrarian economy.

We have metric shitloads (as opposed to Imperial shitloads or English shitloads) of oil available here in the US. We've got enough oil to outproduce the ME for decades while we wean ourselves OFF oil through use of nuclear power created electricity - but WE CAN'T DO THAT.

We couldn't drill in ANWR, one of the most desolate and unattractive places on Earth. It would have been MUCH easier to drill there, than in 5000 feet of water. Much easier to handle any problems, too...

But out of sight, out of mind, eh?

MMS's mission is to manage ... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

MMS's mission is to manage the ocean energy and mineral resources on the Outer Continental Shelf and Federal and American Indian mineral revenues to enhance public and trust benefits, promote responsible use, and realize fair value."

For the most part, MMS is politically staffed by Bush appointees. You remember that guy right? He's the one that thought hard science was just a suggestion and that God would provide.... well his legacy lives on in the form of the goonies he appointed to the MMS.

Turns out that MMS created a report for President Obama related to the safety of offshore oil drilling. In this report they made a whole bunch of mistakes and omissions and used bad data to draw their conclusions (Conclusion as defined by the Bush administration - manipulating the information to support whatever we want to do). Unfortunately Obama then used the "information" gathered by MMS to assist in making the decision to expand offshore drilling.

Having read the "report" from MMS NOAA released a report that stated categorically that the references used in the MMS document are unclear and unsupported. They note many areas where the document ignores proven scientific facts.

The amount of corruption left over from the previous administration is still coming to light.

So keep on defending the Bush appointeed employees who regularly were accepting gifts from the industry, doing drugs and exchanging pornography-filled e-mails instead of regulating the very industry that is now killing the Gulf. But hey, let's not be too hard on these yahoos. After all, this was the whole point of voting Republican, remember? "Get government off the back of big business." What did you expect?

Indiec -Bush Bush ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec -

Bush Bush Bush Bush Bush.

Rinse, and repeat.

IndiecSince Bush l... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Indiec

Since Bush letting people drill in those areas is such a problem why didnt Obama put a stop to it on day 1. You know like he signed the order to close GITMO on day one.

News Item:Obama wi... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

News Item:

Obama will announce later today that Elizabeth Birnbaum has been taken off the job. She's been head of the MMS since July 2009.

Oh look! July 2009. AN OBAMA ADMINISTRATION APPOINTEE!

Ball is in YOUR court Indiec.

Indie,The MMS was ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indie,

The MMS was created in 1982, yet you tell us that it is staff almost entirely by Bush appointees?

I'm sorry it is far more believable hat it is staffed by your typical lifer DC bureaucrats, most of whom tend to be dems. Ultimately, it isn't the faceless bureaucrat who is the source of failure. sure, they create failure in crisis situations by their inaction and by creating bureaucratic stasis, but the real responsible people are the ones appointed by the administration.

So either accept that Barry is responsible because he has failed to appoint the people to run the MMS that he should have or the people that are in there are the ones he wants and therefore are his responsibility.

Blaming Bush for the entire staffing of an agency created in 1982 that has roots that go on far longer than that is just plain ignorant.

Indie,You are disp... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indie,

You are displaying an ignorance of both how government works as well as who is in it. If you wish to blame Bush for the failures of the MMS and government regulation you should make sure first that 1)he appointed the people in charge (he did not) and 2)he created the regulations that forbid oil exploration in safer areas (again he did not).

Your arguments stand truth on its head.

Indiec will be right back. ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec will be right back. Soon as he dashes over to DK or DU to score some more 'talking points' that he can cut and paste.

Saves time, saves thinking.

I'm hearing more drill baby... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

I'm hearing more drill baby drill mantra.

The answer to our oil problem is not to find more oil. It is a poor short-term solution and absolutely doomed to failure in the long run. The answer to our oil problem is to stop using so much oil. Our national energy policy should focus on developing alternatives to oil, not on ravaging our wilderness to provide a short-term sop.

Don't you remember when Dick Cheney met with all the big energy (oil and coal executives) at the White House and then would not tell us what the meeting was about? You silly, naive, people! Dick Cheney, Duke of Halliburton -- responsible for the cementing of the calamitous well, now under investigation -- had his aides conspire with BP America and other oil companies to draw up an energy policy. Don't you remember that Halliburton overcharged our government, served soldiers polluted water and electrocuted some of them in the bases? No?

Indie, when you are done wi... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indie, when you are done with your juvenile conspiracy theories of Cheny, Bush and Haliburton, go back and read JLawson's post at #64. If you can manage to read that post you will see that we are not madly calling for indiscriminate drilling. We are, however, calling for a rational policy of oil exploration that will make our country more self sufficient, more secure and won't destroy our economy. Your policies would make us more dependent, more vulnerable and they would set us on the road to a pre-industrial economy.

I'm sure that would be fine for you but remember that oil doesn't just run our cars, but it fuels our power plants and creates the plastics that are necessary for nearly everything we use in our daily lives. You cannot have modern medicine without plastic (but then again as a supporter of obama you wouldn't want modern medicine would you?). You can't build light weight electric cars without plastics. In short you cannot have your future fantasy world without plastics.

Indiec - having had his ass... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec - having had his ass handed to him, will now entertain us with his version of Lee Ward's,

OH LOOK! A RABBIT!!

Game plan - blame Bush.
Fall back - blame Cheney
More fall back - mention Hailburton

Garand Fan,Do you ... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

Garand Fan,

Do you have anything intellectual to contribute to the conversation, facts, figures, supported opinion or is all ad hominem? Do you have any logical arguments or just vacuous assertions?

Indiec, you cut me to the q... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec, you cut me to the quick! Ad hominem attack? Where? However, I spy one lurking within comment #75.

But that does not surprise me Indiec. Liberals such as yourself are past masters of "projection".

Would you also like me to define that word for you?

"Do you have anything intel... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"Do you have anything intellectual to contribute to the conversation, facts, figures, supported opinion or is all ad hominem? Do you have any logical arguments or just vacuous assertions?"

One might ask the same of you Indiec. All you've given are bogus assertions, inaccuracies, obfuscations, half-baked conspiracy theories and a strong resolve to ignore reality.

Indiec - I am also familiar... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec - I am also familiar with the liberal tendency to play 'victim'. Is that you're next gambit?

Wait I've got it...Projecti... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Wait I've got it...Projection is how the teleprompter displays the words on the glass pane for Barry to read.

Big Oil and its close frien... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

Big Oil and its close friends in the former administration have spent years deluding itself and others into believing that this kind of spill was impossible and that preparing for one wasn't necessary.

If you can't conceive of a disaster you'll cut corners on backup systems and testing. You certainly won't build or position any relevant equipment for staunching the flow. Since a disaster can't happen, you and your Big Business allies in Congress will block all serious safeguards and demagogue all efforts to oversee the industry as ......Big Government interference in the marketplace. Hogwash.

When we finally determine the extent of the environmental degradation caused by the current black monster in the Gulf those who were the loudest in denying what we needed to do their mea culpas will ring hollow.

We must stop drilling and mining for more fossil fuels. We must learn to live with the oil supplies we have now while aggressively transitioning to clean energy.

I asked for intellectual di... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

I asked for intellectual discussion and what did I get?

Exactly what I expected.

Nothing.

Indiec -"The an... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Indiec -

"The answer to our oil problem is not to find more oil. It is a poor short-term solution and absolutely doomed to failure in the long run. The answer to our oil problem is to stop using so much oil. Our national energy policy should focus on developing alternatives to oil, not on ravaging our wilderness to provide a short-term sop."

Indiec - I don't often call people stupid, but that was a STUPID response.

Look at your keyboard. That plastic? From oil. The electricity powering your computer? Likely from oil. Your clothing? If it isn't all wool, leather, and cotton or silk, your fabrics are oil based. Monitor? Even if you're on a laptop - plastics are all over the place. Look around your house. Paint? Petrochemicals. DVD cases? Plastic. Bet you've got some plastic plates and cups in the kitchen, and your fridge? Plastic. Don't even start looking at your foods and containers - you think that stuff all magically appeared at the market without oil ever being a part of either the growing, preparation, packaging or shipping?

Why do I get the feeling that the folks calling for abolition of oil drilling have no damn idea about how much oil is VITAL to the economy of the world?

Think of it as a game, Indiec - each energy source gives you the ability to get to the next, more efficient and energy-dense method of producing energy. Wood - to coal - to oil - and then with electricity (and a lot of hydropower) you could bootstrap yourself into nuclear power - fission, then fusion. After fusion - who knows? Zero point energy, perhaps?

You get to the next level, and you wean yourself off the previous. We no longer cut massive amounts of wood to fuel locomotives. We no longer need millions of horses to provide transportation and freight movement. By now, we should be far into an electrical economy, from cheap fission power...

But that got derailed in the '70s. We're SLOWLY starting to get back to that, but it's taken decades and the price to go on has been raised considerably - almost to a point where we cannot afford it and we will LOSE the game.

And once that's done, we're going to be stuck.

We HAVE to use oil to get to the next level - there's no other way. It's not 'drill, baby, drill' - it's 'use the shit wisely'. Wise use of it means using it - not shipping the shit halfway around the world and paying billions upon billions to people who would gladly cut our throats.

You want alternatives? Solar - blocked by Democrats. Wind? Blocked by Democrats. Bio? Uneconomical, failing the free market. Hydro? We're pretty much maxed out on dammable rivers, and the Dems pretty much cancel out the rest.

Nuclear power? Want to watch a green have a seizure? Tell 'em the founder of Greenpeace has said nuclear power's a good thing, and watch the twitching.

Bluntly? You're stupid. You think in talking points and have no idea of the reality behind them, and then say everyone ELSE is stupid because we don't immediately acknowledge the righteousness of your thinking.

Reality will not be kind to you in the future, I'm afraid.

It's rare to see this large... (Below threshold)
Drago:

It's rare to see this large a moronic strawman in single sentence, but indiec delivers on "teh stupid"--->

indiec: "Big Oil and its close friends in the former administration have spent years deluding itself and others into believing that this kind of spill was impossible and that preparing for one wasn't necessary."

Indiec, provide the link that demonstrates that anyone, from anywhere, from anytime, actually argued that "this kind of spill was impossible" and further, provide the link that demonstrates that anyone, from anywhere, from anytime actually asserted that "preparing for one wasn't necessary".

Indiec.....Liar.

Yawn,More talking ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Yawn,

More talking points and more ignoring what has been said here.

Thanks Indiec, but you are not engaging in any debate. You cannot ignore the points made here and refuse to rebut them. You have made inaccurate caricatures of our arguments and have ignored our calls for sensible oil exploration.

Your last comment appears to be nothing more than a call for an absolute ban on oil exploration and a ban on the utilization of the resources we currently have. Those are ultimately a call for the destruction of our economy and this nation. I am sure that nothing would please you more than for that to happen. However, as I said before, you cannot have you socialist utopia without oil and the things that oil provides. You are ignorant and deluded to think otherwise.

You have not even begun to think how eliminating oil production before identifying substitutes would destroy this country and our way of life.

Or is it that you just don't care? Is it that your ideology is more important than the lives and livelihoods of other people? That would explain your devotion to obama. He has the same personality disorder.

"Big Oil and its close frie... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Big Oil and its close friends in the former administration have spent years deluding itself and others into believing that this kind of spill was impossible and that preparing for one wasn't necessary."

IN THE FORMER ADMINISTRATION

Bush Bush Bush Bush

"Since a disaster can't happen, you and your Big Business allies in Congress will block all serious safeguards and demagogue all efforts to oversee the industry as...."

Hey Jim! WHO has had the MAJORITY in BOTH houses since January 2009? WHO COULD PASS ANYTHING THEY WANTED?

To quote Indiec from an earlier post:

"Turns out that MMS created a report for President Obama related to the safety of offshore oil drilling. In this report they made a whole bunch of mistakes and omissions and used bad data to draw their conclusions...."

Oh, yeah. That was the OBAMA Administration, wasn't it?

"When we finally determine the extent of the environmental degradation caused by the current black monster in the Gulf those who were the loudest in denying what we needed to do their mea culpas will ring hollow."

Nice prose - to quote another "Full of sound and fury....signifying NOTHING!"

"We must stop drilling and mining for more fossil fuels. We must learn to live with the oil supplies we have now while aggressively transitioning to clean energy."

Well, except for the sun doesn't shine 24/7, nor does the wind. But we're working on those carbon-free, non-polluting, FREE energy unicorns.

Just look at Spain. The "going green economy" has done wonders for them.

"I asked for intellectual d... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"I asked for intellectual discussion and what did I get?
Exactly what I expected.
Nothing.
81. Posted by Indiec | May 29, 2010 10:40 PM

VICTIM! VICTIM! VICTIM! VICTIM!
(see post #78 for clarification)

I was going to hang up for the night and leave you to your self-abuse Indiec. But you're so predictable, I may just hang around for the entertainment.

Indiec -You wanted... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Indiec -

You wanted an intellectual discussion - but you're not prepared for it. A discussion is a sharing of ideas and conversation about them - you're shoving out talking points and trying to pass them off as something novel, new, and worth consideration.

They aren't. They are old, and stale, and worthless since they've been superseded by events.

"We must stop drilling and mining for more fossil fuels. We must learn to live with the oil supplies we have now while aggressively transitioning to clean energy."

And the Dems keep blocking alternative energy that works. Ask Boxer how that solar plant in the Mojave strikes her fancy.

There's a saying - "I'll believe there's a crisis when the people TELLING me there's a crisis are ACTING like there's a crisis."

Al Gore - there's a CO2 crisis. He jets all around the world, half owns a carbon trading firm, has a hell of a mansion, and just bought a seaside house. He sure thinks the oceans are gonna rise due to the evils of CO2, doesn't he?

Do we need to get off oil? Shit, yeah! But it's really funny how EVERY possible alternative just... fails. Politically, you can't do shit for wide-scale alternative power. Ever ask yourself why, when the Dems own the House, the Senate, and the Presidency, that it's the DEMS that kill alternative power projects?

Use your head for something other than a hat rack. You've been fed a pile of crap, you're expecting US to chow down on it and agree with you that it's the best thing EVAR! and WE are the unintelligent ones because we see the Democratic hypocrisy behind calling for alternative power one year, and then blocking it the next? Or vilifying the oil companies, then letting them do what they want in exchange for proper contributions?

Yeah, you're an 'indie' thinker, all right...

Indiec,We have pro... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indiec,

We have provided a number of rational responses to your irrational comments. JLawson has given several detailed posts on the costs of not pursuing oil exploration.

You have only responded in talking points. You have not provided any meaningful response to the statements that alternative energy is not realistically available today, that plastics are ubiquitous and we have no reasonable substitutes on the horizon, that government has prevented safe and reasonable utilization of the oil resources that we do have, that government has prevented the development of alternative energy resources that we could move toward, and so on.

You have persisted in spewing talking points and ignoring our points. You have provided fantasies of how Bush and Cheney are responsible and ignored how it is the current administration that appointed the leadership of the MMS and that the administration has dragged its feet on solutions to the point that the Governor of LA is acting without the fed legal approvals that he was supposed to get because they are too frozen in fear in DC to do anything.

Don't go bitching that we aren't providing substantive arguments when you are ignoring them over and over again.

Garandfan -I think... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Garandfan -

I think ol' Indiec isn't even bothering to read the replies here. He just has a script, posts pre-made entries without even reading them. Then complains because nobody can match his intellectual (lack of) prowess, hits the end of the list, and signs off.

Kind of pathetic, really... but then again, he's about as useful in honing arguments as a piece of sandstone is in putting an edge on an axe.

Jim M -Thank you, ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jim M -

Thank you, thank you... don't applaud, just throw money...

LOL.

Have a good evening, everyone (Even you, Indiec, whatever you are!) - I've about had it for tonight myself.

JL - agreed. As said earli... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

JL - agreed. As said earlier, he exemplifies those who engage in verbal masturbation. Makes them feel good, accomplishes nothing.

Prediction - possible return, accusing us of 'ganging up' on him. Being unfair. Etc.

'N guys. As Tigger told Po... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

'N guys. As Tigger told Poooh.

Ta ta for now!

JL,You're welcome.... (Below threshold)
jim m:

JL,

You're welcome...don't get a big head. ;)

But you did leave out that Teddy Kennedy blocked the wind farm here in MA and that biofuels as currently subsidized by the federal government are going to cause mass starvation in parts of the third world (but them indiec probably thinks that the world is over populated so starving a few 100 million brown skinned people into extinction would probably fit in with his Malthusian outlook on the world)

I'm always amazed that the ... (Below threshold)
John:

I'm always amazed that the answer to any and all bad things is Bush, Cheney, Haliburton. I was under the impression that Obama was president.

Oh my God. We've have <a h... (Below threshold)
Neo:

Oh my God. We've have Chance Gardener as President.

IndiecJlawson beat... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Indiec

Jlawson beat me to it

"The answer to our oil problem is not to find more oil."

Hey say the words nuclear power plant and watch the lawsuits from the greenies start flying. Same with wind farms.

Hey Lee Take a lookY... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Hey Lee Take a look
You are in the Sunday cartoons


http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/

Jim M - There were... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jim M -

There were so many things I could have put in, examples of Dems touting alternative energy on the one hand and then blocking it on the other - but what was the point? Indiec wasn't going to be convinced by facts - that poor fool's running on sheer ideology and talking points. Facts just don't figure into his 'reality'.

RM -The problem I ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

RM -

The problem I see with the left is that they cannot, will not, think beyond their talking points.

"We need to get off oil." - Agreed - but what do we use?

"We need to transition to alternative energy solutions!" - Okay - Just what do you propose we use that'll provide power for 330 million people, transportation, food and goods for the same number, that isn't being BLOCKED by the Democrats and environmentalists?

"..."

They absorb the talking points without bothering to look into them, without seeing what's already been done re Alternative Energy, and the rare one that DOES actually think about it believes something that works on a very small scale can be successfully expanded to work nationwide.

I'd love to see us get off oil too. And I think we WOULD be doing that now - IF the enviro's hadn't sidetracked nuclear power in the '70s.

Ah, well. Have a good day, all!

Indie - BUSH did itL... (Below threshold)
John:

Indie - BUSH did it
Lee - you're all RACIST
One trick ponies.
If Obama doesn't own this who the hell does, BUSH. IS. NOT. PRESIDENT. ANYMORE.
Oh and Lee is the most racist person on this blog he see absolutely everything thru a racial lens.

As John points out, the lef... (Below threshold)
jim m:

As John points out, the left is great at assigning blame, but woefully short on actual answers to problems. They have beliefs (like "no more oil") but no legitimate way to implement them without imposing immense hardships on millions of people.

The left has many ideals which are mutually exclusive such as "let's build alternative energy wind farms" and "we cannot build anything that will alter the environment". So we preserve the environment by not building clean energy plants and therefore we destroy the environment by not building clean energy plants.

The left is at it's core irrational and inflexible. It is unwilling to consider compromise of any of it's ideals and therefore achieve any of them in a manner which is without serious disruption to the lives of everyone else. Nor is it willing to reconsider it's ideas even when objective evidence mounts against those ideas (the failure of socialism, AGW etc). No, instead they push even harder to see those ideas realized regardless of the cost.

Indiec and Lee are great examples. They both ascribe blame to Bush and conservatives for everything regardless of whether they are accountable or not. They both demand that we adopt leftist ideas and dismiss the problems that the attempts at forcing those ideas creates. They also dismiss the historic failure of those ideas. In fact they refuse to even acknowledge the existence of any problems they create (problems are not from their flawed ideology, but from the flawed implementation of it and the flawed implementation is due to resistance from the right. Thus they avoid having to account for heir own failures). Likewise they refuse to address historic failures of their ideology elsewhere as those ideas were either sabotaged by the right or the people implementing them were insufficiently hard line in their ideology to implement it correctly.

John "Indie - BUSH... (Below threshold)
retired military:

John

"Indie - BUSH did it
Lee - you're all RACIST
"

You forgot Jim X - "CHeney is guilty"

FACT:We consume 9.28... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

FACT:
We consume 9.286 million barrels of oil per day for motor gasoline out of the 20 million barrels we use in a day. We burn it up. Literally.

We don't use it for plastic, shampoo, shaving cream, medicines, computer cases or any of the other things that you claim I am leaving out of my equation. We burn it. We burn it so that the American public can ride around in fancy cars touting their status. The PR industry has made darn sure you wrap that manhood up in a purty car.

So we burn it. Half of it. Burned.

Me, I'm am happy to have it rationed. Cut it in half. Cut it down to where we are only burning 4 million barrels per day. If that means most of it is used to transport food to the supermarket or buses or you need to carpool with neighbors to get your groceries or get to work then its time for some sacrifice. Use it for the best and most comprehensive coverage if we BURN it.

And sacrifice? Yep. You. Me. The guy who thought he was so tough buying a hummer when he was given a tax deduction for calling it a work truck. Sacrifice. Time for it.

And don't give me your la-de-da explanations of how the Dems have blocked all energy alternatives either. You and I know what that is......BS. You use one wind farm off of the Vineyard as an example. Call them all on the table. Dems and Pubs alike.

Funny though that the Pubs scream about how we are all tree huggers and how it will economically hurt us to do anything other than allow the free market to work. Try doing anything economically while you are killing the health of the planet. Ask the fisherman how that is going to work for them. Try that economic strategy and see how it works for you.

This black monster is going to cost you plenty and you conveniently like to ignore the groundwork laid by the prior administration. During the Bush era, Interior became a revolving door for industry lobbyists. MMS developed a hands-off approach to regulation and was known for its deference to the companies it was supposed to be policing.

It is about regulation. And it extended into many areas including what we have also witnessed in the financial sector.

FACT:
In February of 2009 BP filed a a 52-page plan and EIS that it was "unlikely that an accidental surface or subsurface oil spill would occur from the proposed activities." MMS even certified that the company had "the capacity to respond, to the maximum extent practicable, to a worst-case discharge, or a substantial threat of such a discharge." That was one month after Obama took office. This in effect gives you the facts needed to have the memeory of what the protocol was for many many years under republican rule.

And you call me stupid?
Laughable.


Nancy Pelosi weighs in on w... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Nancy Pelosi weighs in on who is to blame:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/pelosi-blames-bush-administration-for-bp-oil-spill-95175304.html

It gets the ball rolling, seeing as the Democrats, running on their own record this November, will be telling the public: BUSH! BUSH! BUSH!

Questions is, will the American public be that stupid again?

"And you call me stupid?"</... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"And you call me stupid?"

In a word. Yes.

What have you got for a cheap and reliable energy source 24/7? You don't. But you're willing to throw away what we do have.

And when we're all subsistence living in caves, burning all the wood in sight, what will be your next grand plan?

Indiec:Proposal: ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec:

Proposal: 10 SQUARE MILES of solar generators in the desert (out of sight, out of mind). A power line will link the generators to the coast. "Millions and millions" of green jobs! Non-polluting, carbon-free!

Reality: The environmentalists scream "the horned desert lizard! You're destroying it's habitat!" Then they find out that a second power link is required to get all that 'free energy' to the coast. "You're scarring Mother Gaia!"

Can you people at least get your act together?

Sacrifice? We ALL have to ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Sacrifice? We ALL have to sacrifice?

Al Gore.

Yeah, Al's really SACRIFICING isn't he? Just purchased a McMansion on the left coast, on the ocean. The same ocean that will RISE and wipe out the coast line. Does he really BELIEVE what he preaches?

I'll leave you with a final... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I'll leave you with a final thought Indeic:

Throughout the history of mankind on this rock we call a planet, EVERY transition from one power source to another was because the 'new' source WAS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFICIENT.

indiec "And don't ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

indiec

"And don't give me your la-de-da explanations of how the Dems have blocked all energy alternatives either"

Why havent we had a nuclear power plant built in 30+ years?

Come now. Clinton was President for 8. You cant say it was republican rule then.

Obama had a super majority for 18 months. He has both houses of congress on his side. He said he would build nuclear plants. WHere are they?

You say one windfarm. Every windfarm that gets proposed gets shut down.

How about this site (which is enviromentally friendly)

http://www.protecttheflinthills.org/information/Boston%20Globe%20Windfarms%20&%20Environmentalists.pdf
or

http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2010/05/06/dep-approves-permit-for-wind-farm-project/
or

http://www.heartland.org/publications/environment%20climate/article/25804/Wind_Farm_May_Violate_Endangered_Species_Act.html

Shall I go on? Those are from the first page of google results for "wind farm" Permit and evironmentalists. It only returned 341,000 hits.

And you want to ration oil to half of what it is now. What about the millions who will have to either relocate or lose their jobs? Do you even care that you would wreck not just the US economy but the rest of the world?

You are making Lee Ward look like a genius. Are is this Lee Ward in disguise?


IndiecHere from wi... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Indiec

Here from wiki answers (whicbh is where you got your 9.236 million number from)

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_does_it_take_to_build_a_Nuclear_Power_Station

"The licensing process in the USA is a two step process. First the utility applies to build the plant; an action that can be, and frequently is; challenged in court. After a protracted
period of lawsuits and public comment - the construction permit is granted and the utility
can build the plant. After the plant is constructed, the utility has to apply for an
operating license; and the whole process - lawsuits and all, questioning whether the plant
should even exist; starts all over again.

Can you imagine building your home in such circumstances? You convince all the zoning
boards and planning boards that your house will be acceptable to the community and
obtain your building permit. Then after properly construction the house as per the permit,
and as verified by the building inspector; you would then have to apply for a permit to
actually inhabit the house. During this second permitting process; anybody can challenge
any of the features and siting of the now completed house.

"

The last nuclear plant that opened took 20 years to start producing electricity. Not from construction but due to delays by the lawsuits.

Now who is doing the challenging on all the permits and filing the lawsuits?

Idiots like you.

Many of the people appointe... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

Many of the people appointed in the Bush administration are still burrowed in the agencies that are supposed to oversee the [oil] industry," Pelosi said.

Are they? The answer is a resounding yes.


Will the American public be that stupid again?

God forbid we are stupid enough to allow leaders who are in bed with the oil industry sharing porno to lead us away from the black monster as history teaches us that is faulty thinking.

What have you got for a cheap and reliable energy source 24/7?......... But you're willing to throw away what we do have.
And when we're all subsistence living in caves, burning all the wood in sight, what will be your next grand plan?

You need to get a grip. All I hear from you is whining about how you can't do without. Boo friggin hoo.
Read some of these facts http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats and stop your crying.

Burning fossil fuels is NOT the answer. Got it? Using it wisely to improve the state of humanity is.

Instead of sucking on the worlds resource tit we should be leading in stringent rationing measures for our own country and at the same time excelling in the cleanest forms of energy, solar, wind, tidal, geothermal,biomass and a couple of others that are viable if the big industries that have bought up patents and shelved them would stop with the greed and share them with the world. Stop hoarding.

You and I look at the world from two different perspectives. You base every single argument from the basis of what it's going to take away from you and how cheap it is for you. I on the other hand see the planet as a whole and the cost to humanity. I see even the horned lizard as part of the human condition, you find most things natural abhorrent.

And to bring radioactive waste into the mix as a solution is simply another laughable entry in the halls of absurdity. Uranium-235 (U-235) is one of the elements most commonly used to produce nuclear energy. It is generally used in a mixture with Uranium-238, and produces Plutonium-239 (Pu-239) as waste in the process. It's radioactive life is 24oooo years. Animal studies found that a few milligrams of plutonium per kilogram of tissue is a lethal dose. How about we bury it in your back yard?

I'm embarrassed to say I share a planet with people who could care less what happens to it.

Indiec,It's a ques... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Indiec,

It's a question of priority. You place priority on the environment you so clearly worship. The rest of us place priority on human beings and the quality of their lives. The short sighted policies you advance would mean snuffing out millions of lives. You refer us to some Malthusian web site that misrepresents all sorts of data to create the impression that the world is being destroyed. The author of that website is no authority in any of what he writes about and does not provide convincing links or excerpts. He takes snippets of data out of context to create a false impression.

You have repeatedly ignored the facts presented here. Like the site you refer to the facts are not worth addressing. You spout talking points without reference to the underlying facts that contradict them. You refuse to address those contradictions.

You then disparage the rest of us as uncaring monsters. Well, I'll return the favor: Your ideology would result in mass poverty and loss of life. Your policies have been pursued by countries like N Korea, Cambodia and the Soviet Union. Those policies have lead to the starvation of millions. While those countries have not used environmental religion (yes you are a religious nutbag) as a basis for their efforts, they used a supposedly omniscient government to impose flawed and short sighted policies on a hapless and defenseless population. Such is what you advocate. You are no better than they are.

Bullshit - (n): specificall... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Bullshit - (n): specifically male bovine excrement. Colloquially, a specious argument with little or no merit. The difficulty in dealing with bullshit is that it is wrapped in generalizations, unsupported suppositions, half-truths, and blatantly obvious truths (ex: water is wet). Bullshit has no warning smell. The receiver is forced to wade through the chaff, liberally disbursed in order to conceal or obfuscate the generalizations and unsupported suppositions, thus making the encounter tedious and time-consuming. The ability to resist bullshit is predicated on one's ability to exhibit the patience of a saint and the ability and desire to think rationally; based on prior learning and experience; most often associated with what is euphemistically called "common sense".

One engaged in bullshit can be counted on to demonstrate several qualities:

1) repetition
2) ignoring the refutation of a previously offered piece of bullshit
3) claiming the receiver is 'ignorant'
4) claiming the receiver is 'biased'
5) claiming the receiver is 'obstinate'
6) claiming he is 'misunderstood', leading to
7) claining victm-hood and persecution

GaradFan's Corollary: Bullshit has magical properties. It can be dressed up in many ways, but always remains the same. It can be packaged in many different forms. You can put 5 lbs. in a 10 lb. brown bag and it will fill it to the top. You can put that same 5 lbs. in a gold foil 2 lb. bag, and it will still fit. Magical stuff.

Indiec the "no nuclear powe... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Indiec the "no nuclear power" idiot
It actually helps if you educate yourself before you stick both feet in your mouth.

http://www-
formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/nuclear-faq.html

Q. What about nuclear waste?

A. After the fuel has been in the reactor for about 18 months, much of the uranium has already fissioned and a considerable quantity of fission products have built up in the fuel. The reactor is then refueled by replacing about 1/3 of the fuel rods. This generally takes one or two months. {2002 note: Entergy Nuclear, an enthusiastic buyer and operator of American nuclear power plants has been reducing this time for their plants. They refueled their River Bend plant in Louisiana in 17 days and expect to reduce their average refueling outage time to two-three weeks.] Canadian CANDU reactors replace fuel continuously.

When fuel rods are removed from the reactor they contain large quantities of highly radioactive fission products and are generating heat at a high rate. They are then put in a large tank of water about the size of a swimming pool. There they become less radioactive as the more highly radioactive isotopes decay and also generate less and less heat. The longer the spent fuel is stored, the easier it will be to handle, but many reactors have been holding spent fuel so long that their tanks are getting full. They must either send the rods off or build more tanks.

The fuel rods should then be chemically reprocessed. Reprocessing removes any leftover uranium and the plutonium that has been formed. The U.S. shut down its reprocessing plant during the 1970s and hasn't replaced it. European reprocessing plants (Belgium, France, Russia, UK) continue to operate, and the Japanese are building their own - in the meantime sending their spent fuel to Europe for reprocessing. The French plant they use sends their plutonium back to Japan, where the Japanese plan to use it as reactor fuel.

The fission products are then put in a form for long term storage. A large reactor produces about 1.5 tonnes of fission products per year. The fission products are originally in a mixture with other substances, so reprocessing is required to get it down to a 1.5 tonnes. [If the waste is incorporated into a glass, the total weight is 15 tonne. If the density is 3.0 times water, that means the volume of the waste is 0.5 cubic meters, and the volume of the waste glass is about 5 cubic meters. [from Prof. Bernard Cohen] Many schemes for long term storage have been devised, but lawsuits and politics have prevented any of them from being implemented in the United States. Unfortunately, the U.S. is not reprocessing so the volume to be stored is about 10 times larger - still entirely feasible.

The French have decided on a scheme, but I don't know if they have put it into operation. Because the fission products become less radioactive with time, the longer you wait, the easier the task becomes. The Canadians are reviewing a plan for storing waste deep underground in the Pre-Cambrian "Canadian Shield".

The U.S. plan is to store the waste in Nevada in the same area as has been used for underground nuclear tests. This plan is still tied up in long term indecision. A big step forward was taken in 2002 when the President signed a bill to over-rule the objections of the State of Nevada.

Q. Why isn't the U.S. reprocessing?

A. The Carter Administration decided not to reprocess nominally on the grounds that if other countries could be persuaded not to reprocess, the likelihood of nuclear proliferation would be reduced. So far as I know, not one other country has been persuaded, because the economic advantages of reprocessing are so great. The Reagan and Bush Administrations wanted to reprocess, but it would have been politically expensive so they temporized.

Q. What if you don't reprocess?

A. You lose the economic benefit of the plutonium, the spent fuel remains radioactive longer and has to be better guarded, because it contains plutonium. However, there is plenty of uranium for now, so it may not be economic to reprocess at present provided the spent fuel remains available for later reprocessing.


Q. Is the use of nuclear absolutely essential to the sustainability of progress?

A. Probably not. Solar energy would also work, but at considerably greater cost if relied upon for most of the world's energy.

Q. Then what about giving up on nuclear energy because of the danger of nuclear war?

A. Giving up on nuclear energy is unlikely to reduce the danger of nuclear wars. In fact it is likely to increase the danger, because of the advantage it would give to whoever would first reintroduce nuclear weapons. Also the poorer world that would result from the abandonment of nuclear energy would be more likely to have wars.


So Iniec the IDIOT if you reprocess you reduce the waste to about 1/10 of what you have. In addition, you get more benefits. Yet why dont we? Answer. IDIOTS LIKE YOU.

How about the advantages of nuclear over oil and coal?


A lot less digging. A lot less oil wells needed. We arent sending billions of dollars overseas to prop up dictators. We become energy self sufficient.

ANd you say you care about humanity. The question is how much humanity do you care about? 10% 5% whatever is left that is able to survive thanks your grandeose schemes to save the planet.

"Burning fossil fuels is NOT the answer. Got it"

yEP WE GOT IT. That is why we should get another 50 nuclear power plants up and going.

A. It increases jobs.

b. It would just about eliminate our need to import oil

c. we could build the electric grid that could actually support millions of electric cars.

d. It would eliminate probably 75% of the pollution created by coal and oil plants with that number going up as we get electric cars on the road.

Instead we have "lets go back to doing things the way we did in the stone age" mentality from you and your ilk. Go crawl back into your cave as the electricty you are using for your computer is killing Gaia.


BTW Idiot<a href="... (Below threshold)
retired military:

BTW Idiot

http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=ZGY3ZjdhZTg2MDBiOTYxZTVhYWExYTBlMThkYjM4MjA=


"On the issue of persistence, bear in mind that reprocessing the fuel means that, after ten years, the fission products are only one-thousandth as radioactive as they were initially. After 500 years, they will be less radioactive than the uranium ore they originally came from. The waste question is therefore simply one of storage. It is a political, not a scientific, dispute":

It is only political because of IDIOTS LIKE YOU.

You are so utterly clueless... (Below threshold)
Indiec:

You are so utterly clueless that there is simply no hope. Unless you have a clean, functioning "environment" you cannot have a quality of life. You have what the Lousiana coast will be enduring for the next however many years. Suffering and pain because the environment has been destroyed.

This isn't about snuffing out people's lives. It's about saving them. It's about getting people like yourself to understand the interdependence of what we need to make our way through life. A greater part of what we need is a clean planet. One where big business does not take the profits and destroy everything in its wake leaving the crumbs for the rest to wage war.

Your version of a materialist ego is poisoning the whole planet. I suppose if I were you hanging onto the republican ideology though I too would feel betrayed and refuse to admit to bei complicit in making things the way they presently are. You advocate for corporate domination of Earth's people and resources. Me, I know there's a better way. It starts by recognizing that we are only here to steward this planet. Not rape and pillage it for some dubious economic benefit.

We simply hold two separate and distinct philosophies. One based on continuing to build an empire while another finds reason to build an earth community. Guess we'll see which one holds the trump card.

Yawn.ZzzzzZZZZzZzz... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Yawn.

ZzzzzZZZZzZzzzzZZZZ.

Translation of Comment #116... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Translation of Comment #116

"I am victim, hear me roar!"

Ref Comment 116Wha... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Ref Comment 116

What kind of ecophysco bullshit is that.

How old are you Indiec? Either you are something like 14 or you are a throwback to the 60s.

" One based on continuing to build an empire while another finds reason to build an earth community. "

Gee the first one has been kicking the 2nd one's ass for oh 14000+ years or so. I think I will like the odds of going with the first one.

AlsoI guess you are ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Also
I guess you are all out of straw men (1 wind farm, nuclear power, nuclear waste -140000 years ) so you decided to go with the generic "My way saves Gaia and yours destroys her" bit.

talk about a loser.

IndiecPlease let u... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Indiec

Please let us know where you show up at in this video so we can at least know what you look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElJFYwRtrH4

Indiec's latest rant remind... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Indiec's latest rant reminds me of a cartoon I saw years ago. Two hippies are walking down the street discussing the errands they had to run:

HE: I'll go by the 'free' pantry for food.
SHE: I'll go by the 'free' clinic for my birth control pills.
HE: I'll meet you at the Diggers for some 'free' clothes.
She: Don't forget the rally at noon, we're going to protest the MotherF.... establishment.

A Lee Ward is burped up and... (Below threshold)
Sir Toby Belch:

A Lee Ward is burped up and out into society
every second, except in Frisco. There,the rate
is much higher......and the orifice of birth
is much lower.

Poor Indiec -We do... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Poor Indiec -

We don't agree with his prescripted talking points, so naturally WE are the ones who are ignorant and erroneous.

Poor sap - reality is NOT kind to those like him...

Relax, everyone. School wil... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Relax, everyone. School will be back in session on Tuesday, and that'll be the last we'll see of this clown, at least until summer vacation.

Our friends to the left of ... (Below threshold)
John:

Our friends to the left of center can clearly point out everything that's wrong with the world the evil conservatives have created, Bush appointees in key positions blah, blah, blah. There were no entrenced democrats in the Bush administration, right?

The democrats have been in control of congress since 2006. They have held the presidency since Jan 2009. It is now time for them to take ownership, they hold all the power. Like I said in another thread BUSH. IS. NOT. PRESIDENT. ANYMORE. If they have an idea how to get us off oil without destroying the economy and our way of life please by all means have at it.

It's amazing to me that they now hold all the power and the new problem is entrenced conservatives in government? So what's the solution NO conservatives in government at all? What's next? DO they even hear themselves talk?

"If they have an idea ho... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"If they have an idea how to get us off oil without destroying the economy and our way of life please by all means have at it."

Your mistake is in thinking they'll actually WANT to avoid what you see as a problem. It's not a bug to THEM, it's a highly desired feature.

Minimal disruption's a good thing - yes, we're too dependent on oil... but there's nothing else that can do the job. We need to find and promote something else - but it's going to take (at best) decades to wean us off oil.

They want us to go cold turkey, regardless of the side effects. They figure if they throw a big enough tantrum, they'll get what they want - whether it's physically possible or not.




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