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Who was funding the Gaza flotilla?

Terrorist flotsam:

The Turkish organizers of the Gaza Strip-bound flotilla that was boarded this morning by Israeli commandos knew well in advance that their vessels would never reach Israeli waters. That's because the organizers belong to a nonprofit that was banned by the Israeli government in July 2008 for its ties to terrorism finance.

The Turkish IHH (Islan Haklary Ve Hurriyetleri Vakfi in Turkish) was founded in 1992, and reportedly popped up on the CIA's radar in 1996 for its radical Islamist leanings.  Like many other Islamist charities, the IHH has a record of providing relief to areas where disaster has struck in the Muslim world.

However, the organization is not a force for good. The Turkish nonprofit belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella organization known to finance terrorism called the Union of Good (Ittilaf al-Kheir in Arabic). Notably, the Union is chaired by Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who is known best for his religious ruling that encourages suicide attacks against Israeli civilians.  According to one report, Qardawi personally transferred millions of dollars to the Union in an effort to provide financial support to Hamas.

In 2008, the Israelis banned IHH, along with 35 other Islamist charities worldwide, for its ties to the Union of Good.  This was a follow-on designation; Israelis first blocked the Union of Good from operating in the West Bank and Gaza in 2002.  

Interestingly, the Union of Good may not only be tied to Hamas. Included in the Israeli list of 36 designees was the International Islamic Relief Organization (IIRO).  In 2006, both the U.S. government and the United Nations designated the IIRO branch offices in Indonesia and the Philippines for financing al Qaeda.
 

Though I continue to struggle with the decision to land an underpowered force on a ship filled with terrorist sympathizers, I struggle even more with those who fail to see or worse, are purposely ignoring, the facts that are coming out about the flotilla incident.

Facts like the "peace activists" being armed with knives, clubs, bats, and slingshots filled with marbles.

Facts like the Israel commandos armed initially with paintball guns purposed in subduing the protestors but not causing any harm.

Facts like the blockade being in effect to stem the tide of munitions coming into Palestinian territories to be fired indiscriminately into Israel.  Over 10,000 rockets and mortars have been fired at civilian areas since 2005.

Facts like Israel offering to have the flotilla ships dock at Ashdod where supplies alleged to have been on board could be delivered to Gaza over land routes.

Facts like the humanitarian crisis in Gaza being more a figment of the imaginations of Arabs with an agenda15,000 tons of food and supplies enter Gaza each week, to include baby food, milk products and other essential goods.  The UN and Israel being largely involved in those transfers.

The facts are plentiful but will largely be overlooked as the fact of Jew hatred and all it entails are trump.  And make no mistake about it... Jew hatred is strong and getting stronger, emboldened by what they see to be blood in the water and by an American administration doing all they can to add chum.

Crossposted at Brutally Honest.


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Comments (95)

Perhaps a "blockade" around... (Below threshold)
Don L:

Perhaps a "blockade" around Syria might help things out also?

Good post Rick.... (Below threshold)

Good post Rick.

Yeah, Rick, good post. Coul... (Below threshold)

Yeah, Rick, good post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Although it certainly looks like I tried...

J.

Best thing would be to torp... (Below threshold)
cstmbuild:

Best thing would be to torpedo the ships. Keep the soldiers safe and there wouldn't be another run.

Jay... no intention to step... (Below threshold)
Rick:

Jay... no intention to step on ya bro... muh bad... I should've checked before posting and referenced your "fact finding"...

Apologies...

Israel has a long history o... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Israel has a long history of choosing to expose their own forces to additional risk rather than expose the uninvolved to harm. So, while it would have been easiest and safest to just sink the vessels that was not the course taken.

From the start it was a given that these ships would either be turned away or stopped. Audio files of the ships refusing to alter course to unload in the port designated by the IDF forces is available on line for those interested. So is video of the "peace activists" meeting the landing party.

For those who are going to refer to this as an armed assault please explain: only sidearms, paintball guns and ONE rappelling rope. Sorry, this was a boarding party, not an assault.

There is a word to describe those who push the "peace activist's" story line, anti-semite.

A torpedo is a good idea. E... (Below threshold)
Roy:

A torpedo is a good idea. Especially if they use a North Korean one, which are immune from bad press.

Anatomy of a lie.I... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

Anatomy of a lie.

It's really simple. You don't have to just open and swallow anything that's fed to you. Look and think.

For example, look at the link under the line where Rick wrote "peace activists" being armed with knives, clubs, bats, and slingshots filled with marbles.

Click on the pictures and enlarge them.

Do you see a "cache of weapons"? I don't. I see that they went to the ship's galley and pulled out the knives and then went around and rounded up all of the tools and assorted chains and other items you'd typically find on a ship.

You're being lied to. It's called propaganda.

Look for yourself. They didn't find a cache of weapons. That's bullshit.

You're being li... (Below threshold)
You're being lied to.
Well, why don't you stop?
Yeah...lot of well made woo... (Below threshold)
Rich:

Yeah...lot of well made wooden clubs. Gas masks and those molotov cocktails,sling shots. I can see how those are probably right at hand around a peaceful ship of supplies.

Granted I probably wouldn't be as dramatic to call it a "cache of weapons". If I wanted to make sure to give the israeli's a really good pr black eye as these idiots did, I wouldn't arm them with much of anything either.

Yeah, hundreds of people ar... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

Yeah, hundreds of people are murdered by gas masks each year.

Did you click on the photos to enlarge them? No molotov cocktails or sling shots in sight - just kitchen knives and crescent wrenches.

Click on the and play the v... (Below threshold)
914:

Click on the and play the video! All kinds of slingshots for hunting albatros, sawed off bats for playing stickball in Gaza, gas masks for...For??....For? Halloween?

Your right Lee nothing at all suspicious there.

Check out the faces on the happy camper peacekeepers being led off the ship. They look like they are straight out of Obamas southside goon squad.

Speaking of propaganda and ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Speaking of propaganda and lies...

You know... I love conversion stories. Example: I am especially fond of the Apostle Paul and St Augustine.

With this in mind, I would love to hear Lee's conversion story. Back in 2008, he repeatedly called the President a liar. A pathological liar. A danger to the nation.
What happened to convert you Lee? What made you see the light?

Given how the current administration has altered the political calculus of the ME, you might have been right back in the first half of 2008...

"Best thing would be to tor... (Below threshold)
914:

"Best thing would be to torpedo the ships. Keep the soldiers safe and there wouldn't be another run."

Yes there would. They are that damn stupid and hell bent on killing joos.

You guys blow my minds agai... (Below threshold)

You guys blow my minds again.

Is there any damn reason why the Israeli military couldn't have just disabled the boats' propellers and rudders, and towed them to wherever the Israeli military wanted?

Not. One. Damn. Reason.

Instead they wanted to be a bunch of tough guys, and killed civilians in international waters on an aid mission.

Which was an appallingly stupid and callous action.

Not. One. Damn. Reason.<... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Not. One. Damn. Reason.

Aside from great potential of damaging the ship, having to pay for repairs, having to tow the thing (lot easier to move the ship under it's own power) and being assured by everyone that it was a 'peaceful' aid supply run and you DON'T do shit like that pre-emptively to someone you think is 'peaceful' - I sure can't think of any...

What, you think disabling the props and rudder is as simple as putting The Club on a steering wheel or a boot on someone parked in a handicapped slot without a permit?

IF these guys WERE peaceful, open and above-board, they could have avoided a lot of trouble. There was, apparently, quite a bit of communication of intent between the ship and the Israelies. And frankly, I'm thinking the commandos were almost bait. Going into an unknown environment, facing unknown resistance, with paintball guns? And then requesting authority to use PISTOLS when they were attacked by the crew? No rifles, no grenades?

Fuckin' loaded for bear, weren't they? Yeah, these guys was regular pirates, they was...

For some reason, Jim X, I'm not impressed with your ability to game out scenarios that don't turn out other than how you imagine them to be.

But then, we're looking at things from opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't see the Paelstinians as an oppressed people - I see a group willing cooperating with all the other countries in the region to keep THEMSELVES oppressed, aggreived, and pissed off. I've watched for decades, and my sympathy for them has dwindled into the negative numbers as each damn choice they made, time after fucking time, ensured they'd NEVER get out of the trap they were in.

The Palestinians are so popular in the ME that NOBODY wants them. Israel gives them land as a token of peace (Like the Gaza Strip) and they go in, destroy any means of making it livable (like destroying greenhouses and ripping up sewers to make rocket casings) and have inculated in their children a nihilstic midset where the highest possible achievement is for the kid to go blow himself up.

How does THAT sort of psychotic behavior end up making a functional state?

jim x... it is quite risky ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

jim x... it is quite risky to disable a large vessel's prop or rudder without damaging more than just the prop or rudder. Esp if the vessel's crew try to prevent said sabotage.

Aside from great potenti... (Below threshold)

Aside from great potential of damaging the ship, having to pay for repairs, having to tow the thing (lot easier to move the ship under it's own power) and being assured by everyone that it was a 'peaceful' aid supply run and you DON'T do shit like that pre-emptively to someone you think is 'peaceful' - I sure can't think of any...

Exactly my point. There aren't any.

Because those reasons are ridiculous.

- "Great potential of damaging the ship" - as opposed to shooting civilians and even endangering your own soldiers?

- "Difficulty" of towing the ship - while tug boats can tow supertankers.

- "peaceful supply run" meaning what? That civilians **won't** react with anger when their ship is boarded by another nation, without warning, in international waters, while delivering aid supplies?

Please.

jim x... it is quite ris... (Below threshold)

jim x... it is quite risky to disable a large vessel's prop or rudder without damaging more than just the prop or rudder. Esp if the vessel's crew try to prevent said sabotage.

It's all risky. But it's the way you go about things if you are interested in not escalating a situation, and also interested in not killing civilians or endangering your own soldiers. You at least TRY it.

That's why the US planned this strategy when blockading Cuba, during the Cuban missile crisis in 1963.

http://www.hpol.org/jfk/cuban/

Jim X -And if they... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jim X -

And if they HAD, you'd be screaming just as loud about how they'd bunged up the ship, how they DARED intercept a legit aid mission, and so on.

You're so damn blinded by your own hate you can't even see how stupid you're being on this matter. What's important to you is proving the Israelies as wrong as you possibly can, so the Palestinains are on the side of the angels.

Congratulations to Lee Ward... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

Congratulations to Lee Ward and jim_x for being forthright enough to come out and openly support their terrorist friends!

Thanks, guys, for showing your true colors for all to see.

And if they HAD, you'd b... (Below threshold)

And if they HAD, you'd be screaming just as loud about how they'd bunged up the ship, how they DARED intercept a legit aid mission, and so on.

But at least four people who are now dead would still be alive.

*You're* so blinded by your own hate that *you* can't even see how stupid you're being on this matter. What's important to you is trying to prove the Israelis as absolutely blameless as you can, no matter what they do.

There are no angels here, nor are there devils. There's a bunch of humans in a mess - and Israel is making it far worse with this kind of completely irrational action.

Typical Obama-bashing witho... (Below threshold)
Lee Ward:

Typical Obama-bashing without a clue as to what is really happening...

The facts are plentiful but will largely be overlooked as the fact of Jew hatred and all it entails are trump. And make no mistake about it... Jew hatred is strong and getting stronger, emboldened by what they see to be blood in the water and by an American administration doing all they can to add chum.

Reality bites Wizbang again. The US, under Obama's leadership, continues to be a friend to Israel.

Israel should lead investigation into attack on Gaza flotilla, says US

Turkey's demands for international inquiry blocked at meeting of United Nations security council.

The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

Yes, let Israel investigate itself. That's the US position.

All of the hate that spews from the right - makes you wonder what drives all that hatred and lying.

"...and Israel is making it... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"...and Israel is making it far worse with this kind of completely irrational action."

The 'peace activists', of course, were TOTALLY RATIONAL, weren't they?

"Typical Obama-bashing without a clue as to what is really happening..."

Translation: Leave the Obamassiah and his worthless 'smart diplomacy' out of this! HE is THE ONE! HE makes no mistake! Sob!


Jim X, no, you're wrong! Ir... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Jim X, no, you're wrong! Irrational is trying to drive a ferry boat through a military blockade. Provocative is refusing to follow orders from a ship enforcing a (legal) military blockade.

Jim X,The risk of ... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Jim X,

The risk of damage to a ship and that ship going down could result in greater loss of life. The less risky proposition is to fire on a ship and sink it. However if you care about life you board the ship and take on greater risk. When people come at you with weapons with the intent of causing harm and death then the only way to respond it protect yourself.
The ship
A) tried to run a blockade
B) Attacked the IDF

hcddbz - you're making it t... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

hcddbz - you're making it too simple. jim x would rather talk about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. He practices what is known as 'the art of verbal masturbation'. Feels good. Accomplishes nothing. Lee on the other hand, excels at polishing dollops of fecal matter.

The 'peace activists', o... (Below threshold)

The 'peace activists', of course, were TOTALLY RATIONAL, weren't they?

I don't consider expecting to be able to sail with medical and food supplies in international waters to be irrational.

But let's say this was just too much to rationally expect the Israeli military to tolerate.

That still does not justify the Israeli military taking a rash and irrational action that has, according to some reports, killed at least 15 people.

Jim X, you're elevating you... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Jim X, you're elevating yourself to the Lee Ward level here.

The people on that ferry could have sailed the damn thing past The Rock and out into the Atlantic ocean and the IDF wouldn't have lifted a finger.

However, when the ship's Captain announced over the radio that his destination was Gaza and he refused being re-directed to a controlled port for unloading and transfer of his cargo to the Red Cross for delivery, he chose to put himself, his ship, cargo and passengers into harms way.

But I understand that you'll not understand that.

Jim X,Do you know ... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Jim X,

Do you know what the Word blockade means?
Why a Blockade because both Egypt and Israel were tired of arms and munitions flowing into the Gaza strip under the pretext of Aid.

Israel offered them passage to an open port they refused.
So the irrational points 1 and 2 ignore know blockade, refuse accommodation. Finally attack a boarding party with knives, and guns.
After this expect them to die by your hands without a fight.

IDF rational ships crew monumentality stupid.


In other words attack men with guns they kill you.
Clear JIM X?

Jim X, you're elevating ... (Below threshold)

Jim X, you're elevating yourself to the Lee Ward level here.

Yes, he disagrees often with you guys too, doesn't he?

However, when the ship's Captain announced over the radio that his destination was Gaza and he refused being re-directed to a controlled port for unloading and transfer of his cargo to the Red Cross for delivery, he chose to put himself, his ship, cargo and passengers into harms way.

But when the Israeli soldiers stormed the deck, they did NOT choose to put their soldiers in harms way. Is that it?

So any use of disproportionate force *towards* civilians is right, proper, and completely understandable. But any use of force *by* civilians, means the Israeli is entirely justifiable in shooting and killing at least 15 of them.

Does that make sense to you?

But I understand that you'll not understand that.

Oh I understand it. I'm just saying it was stupid, callous and unnecessary. But besides that, a great move.

Do you know what the Wor... (Below threshold)

Do you know what the Word blockade means?

Sure. Do you know what the words "insanely disproportionate response" mean?

It means shooting 15 civilians because you put your own soldiers stupidly at risk, trying to pull a night raid on a ship when it would have been far more easy to disable the propeller.

As for "blocking weapons", what the Israeli military could have done is demand an inspection by a neutral party. Instead, they wanted to be macho tough guys. And now 15 people are dead, our NATO ally Turkey is p'o'd to Hell and back, and the Middle East in general hates Israel more than ever.

Smooth, Israeli military. Smooth.

Jim X,Give it up! ... (Below threshold)
914:

Jim X,

Give it up! Its over and the bad guys lost. Deal with it.

But when the Israe... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:
But when the Israeli soldiers stormed the deck, they did NOT choose to put their soldiers in harms way. Is that it?

So any use of disproportionate force *towards* civilians is right, proper, and completely understandable. But any use of force *by* civilians, means the Israeli is entirely justifiable in shooting and killing at least 15 of them.

When a Civilian wields a knife, fires a gun and attack soldiers they are no longer consider off limits. When deadly forced is being used you respond with deadly force. We know two pistols were recovered from the people on board with empty clips. So not all of the deaths may have been caused by IDF.

If the IDF came aboard and lit-up the place you could complain. The came down with non lethal weapons and and had to ask to use lethal force.

Boarding the ship, after ma... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Boarding the ship, after many warnings, with paint guns... this is more provocative to you than risking destroying the entire ship... sinking it and risking all hands and all of the aid supplies it supposedly carries?

Seriously?

As for a neutral party... the UN has been wonderfully effective in that role so far...

Speaking of lies Lee... wer... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Speaking of lies Lee... were you lying before when you called the President a pathological liar, or are you lying now when you defend him?

Jim X -"There's... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jim X -

"There's a bunch of humans in a mess - and THE PALESTINIANS are making it far worse with this kind of completely irrational action."

FIFY.

I don't hate the Palestinians, I don't love the IDF. I see the IDF attempting to protect Israel from, for all they know, massive deliveries of weapons. Maybe you believe the Palestinians have a right to do whatever they can to Israel - but the UN (in a rare moment of sanity) established the state of Israel, and since then they've managed to survive everything their 'neighbors' have managed to throw at them.

And the Palestinians have fouled their nest everywhere they've been given sanctuary. Jordan had a hell of a time with 'em, as did Egypt.

When ordered to pull into port, this 'aid flotilla' refused. If a traffic cop tells you to pull over, and you refuse and speed up - what happens then? Who's to blame when the inevitable wreck occurs?

To me, one of the saddest descriptions of the entire situation there is as follows:

If the Palestinians stopped fighting - there'd be peace with Israel.
If the IDF stopped fighting - there would be no Israel.

They're both victims - on the one side, victims of a murderous ideology that doesn't allow them to compromise and live in peace with Israel (primarily because their leadership derives too much power and prestige - and a hell of a lot of money - from fighting Israel, see the late and unlamented Arafat and the missing $900 million...) - and on the other hand, Israel's stuck with people who want to destroy it doing pretty much whatever they want with no condemnation of their actions, no matter how heinous - utterly surrounding it, and criticized by the world community whenever they dare defend themselves.

If they were the bad guys - the Palestinians would have ceased to exist as a culture decades ago.

Maybe there's just something about 'progressive' ideology that loves murderous bastards like Arafat, that looks upon unguided rockets fired into civilian areas as perfectly justifiable, which takes statements vowing total genocide and manages to transform them mentally into something akin to promises of puppies and unicorns for all sides - but I sure as hell don't get the unquestioning support by the left for the Palestinians and their cause.

Is the IDF blameless and stainless? No - but they're fighting for their survival as a nation, and HAVE to err on the side of caution. To me, the IDF has been damnably restrained in their dealings with the militant Palestinians who would gleefully destroy them utterly, and not care how many of their own people they destroyed in the process.

I realize you see things differently - but I really can't see how.

Jim X,If this was ... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Jim X,

If this was a "raid" why did the IDF personnel use only ONE rope to rappel to the deck of the ferry instead of the team members coming down in unison, each on their own rope? Do you think the IDF's operational budget was a little tight and they could only afford one rope?

If this was a "raid" why were the IDF personnel carrying paint ball guns and wearing holstered pistols?

If this was a "raid" why were only 10 killed on the ferry, with no reported injuries or acts of violence on the other five ships?

The only answer that fits these facts is that it was not a "raid", it was a boarding party. They were there to take the ship to the port of Ashdod. Oddly enough, that is exactly where all the ships ended up, and that is the port where the IDF originally offered to take the ships for unloading.

"As for a neutral party.... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

"As for a neutral party... the UN has been wonderfully effective in that role so far..."

Please... stop... can't...

laugh... any...

harder........

Give it up! Its over and... (Below threshold)

Give it up! Its over and the bad guys lost.

Wow.

Nope, sorry. I'm not accepting that 15 + civilians deserved to be shot for the crime of trying to take food and medical supplies to the poor.

UOG: Exactly. The IDF is t... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

UOG: Exactly. The IDF is the most effective military in the world, man for man. If they wanted a raid, it would have been begun and over before the flotilla knew what was going on.

When ordered to pull int... (Below threshold)

When ordered to pull into port, this 'aid flotilla' refused. If a traffic cop tells you to pull over, and you refuse and speed up - what happens then? Who's to blame when the inevitable wreck occurs?

Well, besides the fact that a policeman has authority to pull you over - which is entirely different from a sovereign nation's ships in internatonal waters -

Let's say a policeman didn't want me to take food and medicine to someone in a certain area, which the same policeman also claimed was not a prison - and at the same time tried to control all access to and from. Would that be a legal situation? No.

Then let's say I was driving my car in a territory that was neither the policeman's legal area, nor even the area the policeman was controlling. Would that be legal? No.

Then let's say the policeman turned his lights off, drove up behind me and had his buddy jump into my car. This then freaked out my wife, so she slapped him. Then he shoots and kills her.

Is that right? You tell me.

As opposed to any number of other sane reactions.

They're both victims - o... (Below threshold)

They're both victims - on the one side, victims of a murderous ideology that doesn't allow them to compromise and live in peace with Israel (primarily because their leadership derives too much power and prestige - and a hell of a lot of money - from fighting Israel, see the late and unlamented Arafat and the missing $900 million...) - and on the other hand, Israel's stuck with people who want to destroy it doing pretty much whatever they want with no condemnation of their actions

So you think they're both victims - the Palestinians because they're bad and deserve to be victims, and the Israelis because the Palestinians are bad and deserve to be victims.

And the Palestinian leadership derives power and prestige from fighting Israel - but the Israeli leadership doesn't get any power and prestige for fighting Palestinians?

It honestly looks that one-sided to you, always?

You honestly don't think that Israel overreacts, ever?

Jim X you can't just leave ... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Jim X you can't just leave shit out and still make a valid argument.

"Let's say a policeman didn't want me to take food and medicine to someone in a certain area, which the same policeman also claimed was not a prison - and at the same time tried to control all access to and from. Would that be a legal situation? No."

Wrong, because if your example were to accurately reflect reality the place you were trying to take the food and medicine would have been (lawfully) circled in police tape. And no, you would not be able to legally cross the tape line.

I'm giving up on you as just another CWA.

If this was a "raid" why... (Below threshold)

If this was a "raid" why did the IDF personnel use only ONE rope to rappel to the deck of the ferry instead of the team members coming down in unison, each on their own rope? Do you think the IDF's operational budget was a little tight and they could only afford one rope?

I have no idea why the IDF thought this was a good idea. Maybe it doesn't fit the technical definition of "raid", or maybe it has its own category of "raid -> incredibly and unbelievably stupid raid which puts soldiers in a position that results in tragic and unnecessary loss of life".

All I know is, the results:

- at least 15 dead people
- a p'o'd (hopefully still) neutral nation Middle Eastern nation, Turkey
- said p'o'd nation who is also a member of NATO
- increased anger in the rest of the Middle East

Way to go.

UOG,More than that. ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

UOG,
More than that. The traffic cop in this example instructed JimX to go around the corner to the property entrance where they had set up a checkpoint. Go to check point. No contraband. Cross police tape.
But instead JimX/HHF/Hamas decided to go through the tape on the far side of the property from the check point...

Wrong, because if your e... (Below threshold)

Wrong, because if your example were to accurately reflect reality the place you were trying to take the food and medicine would have been (lawfully) circled in police tape. And no, you would not be able to legally cross the tape line.

Ok, let's extend the metaphor then. The area was surrounded in Police tape. The people inside the tape can't vote or make any decisions about the people who surround it with tape - they don't even have the right to own their own property. If some of the policeman's relatives want to go in and live there, than anyone else in that area suddenly have no property rights. Their homes are bulldozed. They have no recourse to courts. And if they resists they're beaten, if they're lucky.

And you're trying to take them food and medicine.

And the policeman tries to jump in your car 12 miles before you're even at the tape, and shoots your wife.

Cool for you?

Oh, and most of the rest of... (Below threshold)

Oh, and most of the rest of the world disputes the legality of the way the police are treating people within the taped area - but the police treat any criticism of what they do as being "anti-police".

Jim X, you probably blamed ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim X, you probably blamed the Japanese when the whale wars idiots got their shiny new boat sank...

SCSIwuzzy, you probably bla... (Below threshold)

SCSIwuzzy, you probably blame these 15 deaths on the 15 dead.

Jim x, you forgot the part ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim x, you forgot the part about firing rockets out from behind the police tape. Firing rockets from schools and hospitals to deter rapid response in kind.
You also forgot that the "friendly neighbors" outside the police tape kicked the people inside the tape off of their property... even the ones that had lived their long before the police came along and pulled out their police tape.

I blame their deaths on the... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

I blame their deaths on the mooks that thought it was a good idea to play chicken with the IDF naval vessels to cross a blockade AND thought it was a good idea to meet the inspections boarding party with violence. They wanted an incident. They got an incident. The surprising thing is that the IDF showed the restraint that they did. Once the fighting began, they could have really taken off the gloves. Holed the vessel's hull and only taken on the crew and passengers that would come aboard empty handed. But they didn't.
They probably weren't the 15 people that died, the onces making these choices. They rarely are.

SCSIwuzzy, you're one ratio... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

SCSIwuzzy, you're one rational guy. May I call you SCSI?

UOG

"SCSIwuzzy, you probably... (Below threshold)
914:

"SCSIwuzzy, you probably blame these 15 deaths on the 15 dead."

Out of respect for the dead would you please refrain from speaking of them in the past tense.

jim x - "SCSIwuzzy, you... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x - "SCSIwuzzy, you probably blame these 15 deaths on the 15 dead."

Well doesn't the drunk driver get the blame when he/she kills themselves?

The phrase, "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" seems to apply here.

jim x - "Well, besides... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x - "Well, besides the fact that a policeman has authority to pull you over - which is entirely different from a sovereign nation's ships in internatonal waters"

Except the fact they did has legal authority to board the vessels in international waters as part of the embargo.

What would have been illegal is if the IDF had boarded the vessels in a third parties/countries waters.

Jim x, you forgot the pa... (Below threshold)

Jim x, you forgot the part about firing rockets out from behind the police tape. Firing rockets from schools and hospitals to deter rapid response in kind.

Ok, sure. Some people within the tape fire rockets outside of the tape. None of them have any right to vote, or any right to property. And the policeman refuse to give any of them the right to vote or the right to property, using the few who fire the rockets as a rationale.

Oh, and the neighbors outside the tape don't want to help those inside the tape - but are happy to use the way the police treat them, as an excuse to hate the police too.

But the police see any better treatment of those inside the tape as giving in - so they'd rather deny rights to all of them. Rather than just deny rights to the guilty.

Anything else?

Except the fact they did... (Below threshold)

Except the fact they did has legal authority to board the vessels in international waters as part of the embargo.

No Mark, Israel's authority to embargo can be disputed. A policeman's authority to block access within that policeman's lawful territory is much more difficult to dispute.

While we're splitting hairs with metaphors here, anyway.

I blame their deaths on ... (Below threshold)

I blame their deaths on the mooks that thought it was a good idea to play chicken with the IDF naval vessels to cross a blockade AND thought it was a good idea to meet the inspections boarding party with violence.

Well that's your privilege. I blame it on an Israeli military that would rather put soldiers in an awful situation, and then blame those who were shot for the mess.

And as a side note, inspections party? Come on. Customs does not board without warning, in the middle of the night, rappelling from a frickin' helicopter.

I'd like to stay and watch ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I'd like to stay and watch the further adventures of jim x doing his version of rhetorical gymnastics, But I have to draw the line somewhere.

Watching bryanD waltz in, piss on his own foot, and smugly congratulate himself at his 'accomplishment' is more than I can take.

Besides, dinner is ready.

None can vote or own proper... (Below threshold)
rich:

None can vote or own property? I thought they voted a replacement for Arafat...and then voted for hamas. If Hamas is in charge..why won't they let the people own property? I am so confused. I could swear someone said that those people in the tape were getting lots of food and supplies from the guys outside the tape. Tons of the stuff.

jim x - "And as a side ... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x - "And as a side note, inspections party? Come on. Customs does not board without warning, in the middle of the night, rappelling from a frickin' helicopter."

Then you're woefully ignorant of history, not just nay history, but U.S. history.

Might I suggest you research the U.S. Navys efforts in the Arabian Gulf between 1991 and 2003.

Specifically the Maritime Interception Force. 10's of thousands of boardings occurred enforcing UN sanctions, many at night and with the use of helos.

None can vote or own pro... (Below threshold)

None can vote or own property? I thought they voted a replacement for Arafat...and then voted for hamas.

Oh, they can vote in a government. It's just a government that has no actual power - the actual government which has the most effect on their lives is Israel.

If Hamas is in charge..why won't they let the people own property? I am so confused.

I understand. Here, I'll straighten it out for you.

1. Israel refuses to listen to any Palestinian government, if and when that government wants Israel to not allow the expansion of "settlements".

2. "Settlements" occur when Israelis, usually with the backing of the Israeli military, decided they want some land. If a Palestinian family has lived for years, and has property deeds going back generations? Tough. He better move out or get bulldozed along with his building.

Understand a bit clearer now?

Basically, no Palestinians have any rights if Israelis want anything different.

I could swear someone said that those people in the tape were getting lots of food and supplies from the guys outside the tape. Tons of the stuff.

Yeah. But the ungrateful jerks - they wanted more! 15 people totally deserved to die for that.

bryanD - "AND in Inte... (Below threshold)
Marc:

bryanD - "AND in International Waters!"

And so?!

A countries territorial zone is 200 hundred miles offshore and the limit of a State's potential exclusive economic zone.

However next territorial boundary marks the State's potential contiguous zone, which extends 24 miles offshore.

What!!! Nitwits like bryanD scream but the ship was 30 plus miles out to sea!!!!

To that ?I also say and so?

Traditionally, where the territorial sea ends, the high seas began and the laws of the coastal State no longer apply. However, policing maritime zones is no easy matter and, unlike land boundaries, they are simple to cross. The answer is to permit coastal States to arrest vessels outside their territorial seas in connection with offenses that either have been committed or which it is suspected are going to be committed within their territorial sea.
The potential territorial sea extends 12 miles off the coast. Here the State has territorial jurisdiction, but only up to a point--the right of innocent passage still applies. The LOSC says:

1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:

(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;

(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;

(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or

(d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.

MeThinks section (B) applies considering Israel had every reason to suspect weapons may have been on board.

And of course all of the legal mumbo-jumbo would have been moot if the vessels had followed orders, pulled into port and been inspected as thousand of other vessels have done in the past.

Marc, might I suggest you m... (Below threshold)

Marc, might I suggest you meditate a bit on the different between "inspections party" and "boarding".

An inspections party implies hailing someone aside their ship, and then coming aboard.

A boarding party strongly implies someone vaulting onto another ship by force. Of course there have been many legal uses of boarding parties.

I was responding, instead, to the euphemism of calling a boarding party an "inspections party". To do that is to imply a completely different situation.

P.S...... The <a href="http... (Below threshold)
Marc:

P.S...... The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

Seems to me it was announced well in advance these ships intended to run the blockade.

woeful sums up Jim x pretty... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

woeful sums up Jim x pretty well.
I love the part about not being able to vote or own property. And thinking that Isreal doesn't allow supply and aid into Gaza because it would be giving in... It's like he got high while watching Roots, Braveheart, Biko, The Patriot and Red Dawn in one sitting while trying to cram for his mideast history final. Getting it all confused...

jim x Gee just what I expec... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x Gee just what I expected a parsing of inspection and boarding party.

So smart guy you explain why a boarding party would be on board for any other reason but to inspect the ship or its occupants.

Again check U.S. Navy history in the Gulf the team they used were called VBSS (Visit Broad, Search and Seizure) teams.

Not all were conducted via helo in fact most were conducted via RHIB (inflatable boat) I'd estimate only 20% were by helo

So smart guy you explain... (Below threshold)

So smart guy you explain why a boarding party would be on board for any other reason but to inspect the ship or its occupants.

I'll try and say it a different way:

- saying "inspections boardings party" implies a peaceful situation, without forced boarding.

- saying simply "boardings" implies differently.

Do you understand what I'm saying, in terms of the implications of these terms?

Careful Marc, you're speaki... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Careful Marc, you're speaking with someone who (apparently) has not served in the U.S. Navy and has no idea as to the usage of the term boarding party.

p.s. he's also recently proven himself to be a cwa.

Jim...I am starting to thin... (Below threshold)
Rich:

Jim...I am starting to think that you really don't care about the 15 people that died because they chose to fight against the israeli teams. I think you took an opposing position and can't back down. Just like LW and the stupid purse in the New Orleans beating incident.
Having been warned about entering the blockade,and warned about being boarded those crew members CHOSE to fight when there was no reason. If they hadn't they would not have died. Israel did no go into this expecting to kill anyone. It is too bad it happened the way it did.
Honestly,it the whole political and historical bullshit doesn't mean anything in this situation. Those people on the ships put themselves into this position and made all the choices to force a reaction from the Israelis.

Ooops! Don't tell jim x:</... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Ooops! Don't tell jim x:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897667,00.html

Kinda blows that 'peaceful activists' thingy.

But at least four people... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

But at least four people who are now dead would still be alive.

Well, lesson learned. When you are told to get the fuck out of territorial waters, GET THE FUCK OUT.

If a cop tells me to step out of the car, I better god-damn step out of the car...WITHOUT A CLUB, BAT, MARBLES, etc.

Nope, sorry. I'm not acc... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Nope, sorry. I'm not accepting that 15 + civilians deserved to be shot for the crime of trying to take food and medical supplies to the poor.

No, they "deserved" to be shot for disobeying an order to stand to and be searched, and then attacking with lethal weapons (yes, bats are lethal weapons).

Please, next time you are stopped by a cop, pull out a bat and complain that you were in a hurry to deliver much needed supplies.

Damn, no wonder we got stuck with the O-dumba...look at the voter pool.

Anything else?... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Anything else?

Aside that your analogy is pointlessly stupid? Not really.

And as a side note, insp... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

And as a side note, inspections party? Come on. Customs does not board without warning, in the middle of the night, rappelling from a frickin' helicopter.

They received plenty of warning not to cross the blockade.

US Customs and Coast Guard will often board in the middle of the night of suspected drug runner ships if there is a compelling reason, and they get much less warning. Basically "Shut the engines and prepare to stand to."

The "Reality-Based" progres... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

The "Reality-Based" progressives have a certain model of how the world SHOULD be inside their minds... and extremely dislike it when actual reality doesn't match that model.

bryanD uses distraction and... (Below threshold)
olsoljer:

bryanD uses distraction and outright lies to bolster his blogs, jimx has found another way with his metaphors "what if". Lee is delusional.

WHY? ...did the flotilla announce in advance they would run the blockade?
...were they in possession of clubs, slingshots, knives?
...were there so many people on board, and WHY were they up and on deck at 3AM?
...did they refuse to be taken to a safe port, unloaded, with the "humanitarian" supplies to be transported via land?

I'm certainly glad that the traumatic trio above were on hand to inspect the cargos of the vessels, and to assure us that they were carrying only "humanitarian" aid items. Bet the IDF soldier who was beaten by at least three of the "peaceful" blockade members, and the one stabbed multiple times feel foolish already.

No, they "deserved" to b... (Below threshold)

No, they "deserved" to be shot for disobeying an order to stand to and be searched, and then attacking with lethal weapons (yes, bats are lethal weapons).

Ok. I don't think 15 people deserve to be killed while delivering food and medical supplies, for just about any reason.

Let alone whether they were actually formally ordered to stand to and be searched. Seeing as how their boat was stormed in the middle of the night, from some dudes rappelling down from a helicopter.

Oh and James C., I say *your* statement is pointlessly stupid. Nyah nyah.

As you all are apparently n... (Below threshold)

As you all are apparently not aware, the reason that these activists don't simply want to hand over the supplies to the Israelis and let them deliver it is that they expect the Israelis won't deliver them.

The Israeli government is pursuing a policy of making sure the Palestinians get the exact minimum they need to survive. Which is resulting in rampant malnutrition among Palestinian children, others receiving painkillers when what they need are cancer drugs, and many other similar travesties.

Which I expect many don't care about, as Palestinians somehow are less than human beings in a lot of estimation.

Nevertheless, that's why this group was intent on going to Gaza to deliver these supplies themselves.

If the Israeli government really needed to make sure that there were no guns on board - if this was their reason and not their excuse - they could have ascertained this in any number of different ways without storming the boat and killing 15 people.

But that's not what they're interested in, clearly. What they're interested in is pursuing this policy of continuing to treat the Palestinians like dogs - while at the same time wondering why the rest of the Middle East isn't warming up to them.

JLawson, fixed your post fo... (Below threshold)

JLawson, fixed your post for you.

The "compassionate" conservatives have a certain model of how the world SHOULD be inside their minds... and extremely dislike it when actual reality doesn't match that model.

See, Jim X?My post... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

See, Jim X?

My post didn't match your model, so you had to alter it. You could have ignored it, you could have rebutted it. Instead, you changed it.

Could you possibly have validated the concept any better?

Reality is what IS - it's not defined by what you wish it to be, or what you desire, or what you and your buddies believe can be changed if you chant and demonstrate and riot to 'speak truth to power'.

Reality is not defined by what the media decides to report, or the slant (in either direction) that a 'journalist' decides is appropriate for the story and the intended audience.

You seem to see the Palestinians as pitiable victims, blameless while everyone else fucks them over.

Me? I see the Palestinians as pitiful victims of their leadership, which continually fucks over the lower ranks while ensuring the higher-ups get theirs (Anyone ever find out what happened to that $900 million Arafat supposedly squirreled away?) and are dedicated to KEEPING the Palestinians in their current plight. The best way to do that is to keep the fight going. It's not good, it's not right - but it's what IS. To make peace with Israel is to lose the power they've accumulated, and the aid money they're used to stealing.

The Palestinians have had 60+ years of 'leadership' which has kept them in their current state. But they're useful idiots - cannon fodder in the proxy war Hamas and Hezbollah are engaging in against Israel.

Will that ever change? Not until the world community holds BOTH sides equally accountable for the peace process, and stops automatically excusing everything the Palestinians do to disrupt the process. This includes bombings, mortar fire, car bombs, body bombs, kidnappings, shootings, and the like.

It's time for the Palestinians to step up to the plate. This means the Palestinian leadership would have to crack down internally - and hard - if they really want peace.

And that's pretty darn unlikely, wouldn't you say?

Sigh.The fact that... (Below threshold)

Sigh.

The fact that you won't see my sarcastic changing of your post as rebuttal, is mind-blowing. And in fact, further evidence of your blinders in refusing to notice what *you* don't want to see.

But here, I'll play, and give you a rebuttal in a hopefully clearer form.

The "Reality-Based" progressives have a certain model of how the world SHOULD be inside their minds... and extremely dislike it when actual reality doesn't match that model.

Your statement about "Reality-based" progressives - given in what Jon Stewart accurately described as "douche quotes" - is very ironic. Because I see conservatives as doing the exact same thing.

I can point out any number of examples of this. Would you like me too? Global warming is one. Resisting evolutionary theory is another one. The ongoing worship of tax cuts and deregulation as a solution to everything, is a third. The belief among conservatives that Iraq had some connection to 9/11 is a fourth. The belief that gays being in the military publicly will destroy our military power is a fifth. And on and on.

Does that do for a rebuttal for you, or would you like some more?

I agree that reality is what it is. What you are apparently refusing to see, is how reality is not actually what you want to think it is.

If you hold any of the 5 above beliefs, consider that exhibit A in my rebuttal.

So, on to exhibit B:

You seem to see the Palestinians as pitiable victims, blameless while everyone else fucks them over.

No. That's what you want to think my belief is.

My actual belief is, as I stated earlier, that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are angels - and that Israeli mistreatment of the Palestinians goes far beyond what is necessary for their security. In fact, it WORSENS Israel's security. But because it makes them feel tough and macho, they continue it - and things escalate to tragedies like the one before us.

The other piece of reality that you refuse to see, even though I brought it up here previously, is that both sides are NOT being held equally accountable. If they were, Israel would be forced to stop building settlements - by forcing innocent Palestinians off of their land at gunpoint and bulldozing their houses.

If you think that Israel SHOULD be able to do this, and that this is peaceful and sensible, please explain why in your rebuttal.

Sorry, Jim. No more time. ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Sorry, Jim. No more time.

You've convinced me that there's no use at all in discussing anything with you - you believe what you believe and though I agree with some of it, the congruent points aren't sufficient to come to an agreement. I'm quite sure by what I've seen over the decades that you're pretty much dead wrong when it comes to your support of the Palestinians and your thinking about what Israel should do - but seeing we (at least, I - and hopefully not you) have any affect on it all, I believe we're at an impasse.

Have a good day.

Sorry, Jim. No more time... (Below threshold)

Sorry, Jim. No more time.

So just to be clear: you demand a rebuttal on your terms, and accuse me of not being logical.

I produce just such a rebuttal.

At that point you declare, while rebutting none of my points in return, that there's no further point in discussion.

Interesting.

One last thing, Jim -... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

One last thing, Jim -

I didn't DEMAND a rebuttal. All I did was say:

"My post didn't match your model, so you had to alter it. You could have ignored it, you could have rebutted it. Instead, you changed it.

Could you possibly have validated the concept any better?"
What you choose to do, or not, is your call.

By the way, you know that aid that was so desperately needed? It's now a bargaining chip.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.

Ra'ed Fatooh, in charge of the crossings, and Jamal Khudari, head of a committee against the Gaza blockade, said Israel must release all flotilla detainees and that it will be accepted in the territory only by the Free Gaza Movement people who organized the flotilla.

Israel said it had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys.
And the reality of the situation is leaking out.
As we know, the Mavi Marmara was another story altogether. Revealed in cabinet briefings and reported in Israel Today on Wednesday: the large boat contained between 50-100 passengers who had apparently been recruited and put on the boat by the IHH organization -- which financed and organized the flotilla -- with orders to violently attack the IDF soldiers expected to board.

"They came ready for battle. They came to kill and planned violence against the soldiers ahead of time" a military official told the cabinet.
These men were organized and well-trained, with a clear chain of command -- there were leaders, deputies, and footsoldiers, divided up into specific groups, located in pre-designated locations on the top deck of the boat waiting for the soldiers to board.

They were fully equipped for battle. A search of the ship found weaponry -- knives, axes, metal poles -- as well as protective gear, bulletproof vests, masks, and night vision goggles. When they were apprehended, none of them carried any form of identification, and most of them had thousands of dollars in their pockets.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/as-reality-unfolds-about-the-flotilla-world-media-continues-with-fictional-narrative/

Reality is so complex sometimes, isn't it? And it rarely fits into a simple narrative.

Yes, that's true. You techn... (Below threshold)

Yes, that's true. You technically didn't demand a rebuttal. You just asserted my not providing a rebuttal on your terms, was proof that you were right.

My mistake.

In any case, I've provided that rebuttal now. Would you care to respond my rebuttal? If not, I assert that is proof that *I* am right.

Oh, and Hamas' position has... (Below threshold)

Oh, and Hamas' position has nothing to do with any of the points listed in my rebuttal. Including specifically your assertion that:

You seem to see the Palestinians as pitiable victims, blameless while everyone else fucks them over.

...an assertion which is proven wrong by my other statements on this very page.

Jim -I realize you... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Jim -

I realize you've got a need to be right on this.

So... you win. (Shrug.) There's more to life than arguing about this. Chat at ya later.

Thought I'd pop back on the... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Thought I'd pop back on the thread to see if Jim came up with any intelligent rejoiners.

I see he hasn't.

Ok. I don't think 15 people deserve to be killed while delivering food and medical supplies, for just about any reason.

Let alone whether they were actually formally ordered to stand to and be searched. Seeing as how their boat was stormed in the middle of the night, from some dudes rappelling down from a helicopter.

Oh and James C., I say *your* statement is pointlessly stupid. Nyah nyah.

They were warned off...repeatedly as has been noted above. They chose their fate. Turns out from recent video that the IDF were shot at with LIVE ammunition (whoever decided to send the IDF in with paintball guns really needs to be sacked).

No, I change my mind...it's not just your argument, but YOU that is pointlessly stupid.

And...nyah, nyah? What are you, eight?

Ra'ed Fatooh, in charge ... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

Ra'ed Fatooh, in charge of the crossings, and Jamal Khudari, head of a committee against the Gaza blockade, said Israel must release all flotilla detainees and that it will be accepted in the territory only by the Free Gaza Movement people who organized the flotilla.

Huh. Fancy that. Guess they weren't so desperate for those supplies after all.

Of course, if the Palis hadn't destroyed all those greenhouses after their takeover, perhaps they could grow their own food. I know, a silly notion. Growing your own food. Craziness.

Dealing with the simplest f... (Below threshold)

Dealing with the simplest first:

No, I change my mind...it's not just your argument, but YOU that is pointlessly stupid.

And...nyah, nyah? What are you, eight?

So you call me personally stupid - and then ask if I'm 8 years old. LOL.

Are you unable to connect your childish insults of others, to childish insults of you? Or are you just immune to irony?

By the way, I was responding to this argument of yours.

Aside that your analogy is pointlessly stupid? Not really.

How old are you?

It's only immature when it's done back to you, apparently.

They were warned off...r... (Below threshold)

They were warned off...repeatedly as has been noted above. They chose their fate. Turns out from recent video that the IDF were shot at with LIVE ammunition (whoever decided to send the IDF in with paintball guns really needs to be sacked).

To suggest they "chose their fate", as in being shot to death for delivering medicines and food - while at the same time saying those who shot them didn't make any kind of choice or even mistake - is simply ridiculous.

The Israeli military had any number of different options, including disabling the ships propulsion, physically blocking the ship like they did a similar ship from Cyprus in 2006.

The Israeli military has previously been able to deal with sending ships back, without midnight commando raids.

But I guess you all will continue to refuse to accept this. As is your privilege.

Huh. Fancy that. Guess t... (Below threshold)

Huh. Fancy that. Guess they weren't so desperate for those supplies after all.

Could be. However, as any look at the actual status of the average Palestinian including the amount of malnutrition would tell you, that appears unlikely.

Maybe what's actually going on is, they want this organization to not have been defeated in their attempt to bring **food and medicine** to Palestine.

But whatevs. What's a few thousand children starving to death in rubble, when the rest of the Middle East is mad at Israel? I'm sure it won't make a bit of difference.

It's clear I won't change y... (Below threshold)

It's clear I won't change your minds. I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems almost all of you are determined to stick to the notion that Israel must be absolutely blameless in any way.

Good luck in all your lives.




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