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Hallowed Ground

As Kim noted below, there is quite a bit of excitement about a plan to build a mega-mosque in New York City, practically within spitting distance of Ground Zero. (No, that metaphor was deliberate.) Quite a few of the left don't understand why that could cause so much consternation among Americans. So I figure I'll explain it to them, in their own language.

The establishment of this mosque, so close to the site where almost 3,000 people were murdered on 9/11, is an act of tremendous insensitivity. On that day, a small group of very determined men committed the single greatest act of terrorism in history -- in the name of Islam. They cited specific tenets and quotations from the Islamic faith in justifying their actions.

Around the world, many, many Muslims rejoiced in the attack, celebrating it in the name of Islam.

The attack wasn't something carried out by people who happened to be Muslim. It was carried out by people who were united and motivated by their Muslim faith, in full accordance with Islamic laws and traditions.

So while it might be unfair to blame all Muslims for 9/11, or even a majority, the connection between that attack and Islam is inescapable. And many of those who lost loved ones on that day, many of those who survived the attack, will bear the psychic scars of that beautiful, terrible day for the rest of their lives. They deserve our respect and our consideration.

Further, look at the name chosen for the Mosque. It will be named after the Great Mosque of Cordoba, which was hailed as the greatest monument of the Islamic invasiion of southern Europe. It started as a Christian church, spent 450 years as a mosque, and was converted to a Christian cathedral almost 800 years ago.

Let's repeat that: this mosque, so close to Ground Zero, is being named after one of the greatest accomplishments of the Muslim invasion and conquering of part of Europe.

Names like this are not chosen at random. Like the Cordoba mosque, this new one was not conquered or stolen, but bought legally. And it was a symbol of Muslim supremacy, deliberately placed at a place held sacred to those who had come before the Muslims.

Finally, the new mosque is scheduled to open its doors on Sunday, September 11, 2011. The tenth anniversary of the terrorist attack.

365 days in a year, and the day the mosque's backers choose to open it is that one. Like names, that is not something that happened by accident. No, that was a deliberate choice.

If the mosque backers were truly respectful of others, if they weren't trying to exploit the atrocities carried out by Muslim extremists, they would not be building a mosque in what once was the shadows of the twin towers. They wouldn't be naming it after one of the greatest symbols of Muslim conquest of the West. And they wouldn't schedule its grand opening for the tenth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

No, this is clearly an "in-your-face" move, designed to prey on Americans' traditional tolerance and acceptance of others, our eagerness to show how open-minded we can be, and the willingness of so many of us to "blame America first."

No.

Not this time.

Not in this place.

Not so close to that hallowed ground.


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Comments (37)

They build it? I will come.... (Below threshold)
914:

They build it? I will come.

... .... ... ..... .. .... .

That's exactly what it is, ... (Below threshold)
Maggie Mama:

That's exactly what it is, Jay Tea! It's an "in your face move!"

Who are the asses who okay ... (Below threshold)
mag:

Who are the asses who okay this thing to be built? People should be going after them.

When a Synagogue, a Catholi... (Below threshold)
SShiell:

When a Synagogue, a Catholic and a Baptist Church are built in Mecca, then and only then will I consider a Mosque within 5 miles of Ground Zero.

Until then, build it and I will join 914 in visiting the site.

Jay Tea:I do not a... (Below threshold)
James H:

Jay Tea:

I do not agree with you.

Pay attention to the current method of protest. Those opposed to this mosque recently attempted to persuade a local New York City board to block consruction of the mosque/cultural center.

This should be deemed unacceptable for two reasons:


  1. First Amendment. If a New York government entity blocks mosque construction solely because its sponsors are Muslim, that entity facially discriminates based on religion, and, indeed, breaches the First Amendment guarantee of free exercise of religion. Of the objections articulated against the mosque, none of them pertain to religiously neutral criteria such as building safety or infrastructure concerns. The objections raised are solely an attempt to enlist government sanction for private religious bigotry.

  2. Property rights. My own beliefs on private property rights are not nearly as expansive as those held by others here. However, I do believe that as long as a private transaction is enacted in accordance with existing laws, it should not be nullified by government action. The contract in question here is a private-sector affair that involves use of privately owned land. I can't help noticing that the same group that supports, say, an individual restauranteur's right to discriminate based on race would then turn around and seek government interference in a private affair.

But outside government action, the sky's the limit. March around the site with your signes? Fine. Attempt to persuade a landowner not to allow a mosque to be built? Fine. Block access to the construction site? Well, you'll be arrested for trespass. But if you're trying to draw attention to something you don't like, you're following a grand American tradition, even if you're wrong.

But do the rest of us a favor, and stop trying to enlist government action in service of your private biases.

Any thinking person should ... (Below threshold)

Any thinking person should be able to see what a travesty this Cordoba mosque is.

I do wonder why Moslems even consider building a mosque on that ground. Pigs and hogs once roamed there. Really. The ground should be defiled as long as Moslems are concerned.

Spread the word.

Personally I tend to side w... (Below threshold)
P. Bunyan:

Personally I tend to side with James H on this topic.

I do think the mosque is offensive and wrong, but I don't think there is a legal basis to stop it.

Except there is kind of a gray area. For example free speech rights do not extend to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. It's a bit of a stretch but if you look at everything they're doing here (which JT did an excellent job of detailing above) this is, in some ways, an incitement to violence which is not protected by the First Ammendment.

Jay,I guess I'll tak... (Below threshold)
codekeyguy:

Jay,
I guess I'll take the "low" road here, unlike Jamers H. and P. Bunyan. There is no such thing as a "moderate" muslim, for if there were any, they, too, would be protesting this atrocity. My humble belief is that all muslims either are jihadists, or strongly support jihadists. I do not want America to become another United Kingdom, so it is time to put a complete stop to ALL of this muslim asskissing, and give all muslims an ultimatum: accept that we hate what you (the universal YOU) did on 9/11, and either AGREE that you (again the muslim universal)ALSO SUPPORT THAT POSITION, OR GET THE HELL OUT OF AMERICA.
Heck, they are followr4s of a pedophile, what do you expect.

Consider: Regardless of th... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Consider: Regardless of the legality of the purchase, what would reactions be if Tim McVeigh's fellow sociopaths legally erected a monument nd training center named in his honor near the site of the Murrah building, or neo-Nazis opened branches across the street from every federal cemetery in the nation? Legal or not, those would be incredibly offensive.

Offensive, yes. But I woul... (Below threshold)
James H:

Offensive, yes. But I would not support using gov't action to shut them down or prevent their construction.

Or how about a museum to th... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

Or how about a museum to the KKK in Memphis next to the hotel where MLK was slain?

But James there is some pre... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

But James there is some precident. I'd have to find the details, but I remember about a decade ago here in St. Louis when the state had granted the KKK rights to sponsor roadside cleaning along a stretch of I-55. Civil rights-types and others were outraged, and the state wound up recinding what was legally granted. That stretch of highway is now named after Rosa Parks.

I'm finding myself in agree... (Below threshold)
Clay:

I'm finding myself in agreement with James H and P. Bunyan on this. While I disagree with the very notion of moderate Muslims and that this is clearly 'in your face',, I also am staunchly in favor of the freedom of religion and ardently believe that property rights are the very foundation of our Republic. As much as I detest the idea, this is America after all. The annoying truth about the principles of Liberty is that they must be accepted even when they hurt.

I suggest immediate action ... (Below threshold)
John Hansen:

I suggest immediate action on this. Someone should start a fund to purchase this property.

Then we should buy it.

Your precedent is inapposit... (Below threshold)
James H:

Your precedent is inapposite. Highway == public right of way.

Of course we could instead ... (Below threshold)
John Hansen:

Of course we could instead purchase the adjoining piece of property and start a pig farm.

James - I stand corrected. ... (Below threshold)
Big Mo:

James - I stand corrected. Thanks.

I guess what really would be ideal -- in an ideal world -- that good Christian, atheist, etc. men and women could approach these Muslims and explain to them why, although perfectly legal, their mosque is offensive **where it will stand** and **when** it will be opened and **what** it will be named.

If these Muslims seek to be good neighbors, surely they must realize this. If they don't care, then a pox on them.

This could be tough and deb... (Below threshold)
Knightbrigade:

This could be tough and debatable on stopping this through government involvement and regulations, BUT it MUST be stopped.

I understand the freedom of religion and property/speech aspect, but one would have to be brain dead to NOT see the offensive insult and statement this mosque makes to the American people.

One way or another a stand on this BS has to be taken.
Push back could come from some suggestions above, or other ways such as putting a HOOTERS restaurant across the street etc.
Islam needs to understand America is not Europe and we will not be manipulated and pushed to their liking.

Emanate domain was used to ... (Below threshold)
Mac Lorry:

Emanate domain was used to clear the way for the World Trade towers in the first place, so let them build their mosque. Then in a few years use emanate domain to remove it to rebuild a true replacement for the World Trade towers. If that's too expensive, then a downtown garbage facility could replace the mosque. It's the American way.

Mac:As far as I kn... (Below threshold)
James H:

Mac:

As far as I know, it's a couple blocks away from WTC property.

I don't think that the mosq... (Below threshold)
_Mike_:

I don't think that the mosque should be built and don't think that the government should block the building.

I do support buying the property surrounding the building and opening a pig farm on it or maybe a poster shop with lots of caricatures of big Mo.

Well, if they can't be stop... (Below threshold)
Cindermutha:

Well, if they can't be stopped, I'd be perfectly happy if a bunch of barbeque restaurants surrounded the place with the delicious smell of smoked porcine flesh wafting their way no matter which way the wind blows.

I would just like to say th... (Below threshold)
Prof. J. Detalio:

I would just like to say that you really should do your research. Islamic and Muslim are not the same faith or religion. They believe in very different views and idealizations. The Muslim religion is in fact one of three religions with near identical beliefs; Muslim, Jewish and Christianity.
All the same stories just told different ways.
Now that you are aware that they are not the same religion why don't you go back and read through your post. That way you can see how absolutely obnoxious and doltish it really is.
Islamic is to Muslim
as Nazis are to Christian

it's called an identity crisis and people like yourself who do not have the proper education to make such statements are giving Muslims a bad name and assisting in the prosecution of a culture of people whose values are far nobler than your own.

How about a nice southern s... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

How about a nice southern style BBQ joint across the street.

The wonderful aroma of cooked pork wafting through the mosque 24/7...ahhhhhhh...

The restaurant would have no responsibility whatsoever for any of their patrons who might 'accidentally' discard their rib bones on the mosque property.

Cindermutha,Darn y... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

Cindermutha,

Darn you all to heck! You beat me to it.

23 == trolland not... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

23 == troll

and not a very good one, either.

Remember all that phony out... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Remember all that phony outrage and indignation about "backlash" Mayor Bloomberg declared he would not permit after the Times Square Bombing fiasco? Let 'em build the mosque, and backlash will look like a walk in Central Park on a Sunday afternoon.

Prof. J Detailo,You ... (Below threshold)
codekeyguy:

Prof. J Detailo,
You are a schmuck, if you don't realize that ISLAM is the religions of the MUSLIME. If you are MUSLIM, you follow ISLAM, the pedophilic religion(?) of the child molester and pervert Mohammed. Islam is infested with jihadists and cowards.

Yeah, Prof., "nobler values... (Below threshold)
Dave:

Yeah, Prof., "nobler values" such as hanging a 7 year old boy, throwing acid in the faces of little girls trying to get an education, stoning women and blowing up marketplaces. If those are "noble values", I think I would rather be an infidel.

Left or Right we should all... (Below threshold)
dee73:

Left or Right we should all be Americans or compassionate human beings first! Thank you Jay Tea for the simplified dissertation on why this would be offensive and a travesty. There's no gray area on this subject, unless you believe it's okay to kill innocent children, babies, men and women.

James, here's what your fir... (Below threshold)

James, here's what your first comment says:

Those opposed to this mosque recently attempted to persuade a local New York City board to block consruction of the mosque/cultural center.

This should be deemed unacceptable for two reasons:
The first reason you give for why this effort should be deemed "unacceptable," is freedom of speech -- yet attempting to persuade a government body to do something is a use of that very same freedom of speech, which you've just deemed unacceptable.

In perusing this thread I haven't seen this contradiction addressed overtly. I think calling the attempts to persuade "unacceptable" is evidence of a poorly thought-out position. I'd like to attempt to persuade you to reconsider.

Let's just face the facts. ... (Below threshold)
BlueNight:

Let's just face the facts. How long would it be until the worshippers are attacked or the building vandalized? How long would it be until some "self-radicalized" American bombed the mosque? This is a (literally) monumental act of trolling, designed to turn Christians into the violent ones.

Let them build a mosque, according to the laws they have observed in obtaining the land. Let them go to and from their place of worship in peace. Do not desecrate them or their property; legally, that's harassment.

But make them live by the same laws that protect them. Christian, Bhuddist, Jewish, and Atheist believers can hand out tracts within earshot, and can legally express their own free speech opinions with the worshippers. Sharia law will not be forced upon the population of New York. If there is a church next-door, or a synagogue, they will not be allowed to harass them.

It is fairness and equity that will show them their religion is built on death and force, and that they should be ashamed of the act which occurred ten years before an less than a half-mile from that spot.

AK, you got me. Attempting... (Below threshold)
James H:

AK, you got me. Attempting to persuade is fine.

But for a board to block construction because of religion ... that would be unconstitutional.

So, our friends the protesters are lobbying their friendly neighborhood board to undertake an unconstitutional act. That makes it all better.

Ultimately, though, what's ... (Below threshold)
James H:

Ultimately, though, what's really telling in all of this is that the protesters have chosen to hold an entire religion guilty for the transgressions of a relative few.

It's as if a Presbyterian stole a child's lunch money, so the kid goes and beats as many Catholics as he can find.

Seems Like we have forgotte... (Below threshold)
Tony Kenyon:

Seems Like we have forgotten America has been sold out We do not have the Rights that we were Established with
They Keep On Talking how Lincoln Freed a Nation but in truth all he said was those states wanting Freedom for all Will Be Backed and Those States that want Slavery intact will be accepted
Read the whole story
Read how in 1941 the Japenese Americans Were put into Camps but when 9/11 happen nothing was done
Read how One Man Said no matter how the Turnout I am President
Read that since 1973 When Nixon Was Forced out how this Country started the Recession
everything went up and jobs were being lost
The Country Was Being Sold to other Countries and We became Further in the hole according to the Government
Yet where is all the Money Found in the Palaces
of Husein Where is all the Money Confiscated from the Drug Lords
Where is the Rights For All Nations as it is Suppose to be
Why is it that the Government has to Vote on a Bill that Allows African Americans the Right to Vote every 5 or 10 Years
If we are all Suppose to Be of One Nation
Then Protect our Rights as a Nation not just some
Americans are Americans no matter what Nationality they are
So Give America Back to the ones who Created it to be as it should be
Not Owned as the Government seems to Want it

Building a mosque at the ol... (Below threshold)
moseby:

Building a mosque at the old WTC site? At least I'll know where to go if I am ever down there and have explosive diarrhea....

JamesHI have perso... (Below threshold)
MichaelC:

JamesH

I have personally taken plenty of exception to your position in this thread, but your post #34 finally pushed me to print. The backers and and those who chose the name of this travesty of a building seem clearly to know what they are doing in creating a monstrous insult to all people whose hearts contract in pain when considering the attack on September 11, 2001.

In their own cultures, these slime would recognize instantly and halt any similar type of action. But we all know that in their culture, no such action could ever be so much as contemplated because of their totalitarian views concerning all other religions. Now you feel it incumbent upon yourself to speak for such people and to put down those of us who are offended and feel like expressing how we feel about what these people intend and what we think should be done about it.

I find your very urge to do so disgusting and inflammatory. You couch your views in "oh so reasonable" lingo, much the way the Idiot in Chief does. Some of us are not fooled and whatever support you seem to be drawing in this thread strikes me as coming from those sorts of Americans who try their hardest to understand such issues with an open mind. I think here that they are trying too hard. The issue is not hard to understand at all.




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