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Franken Elected by Felons?

Nothing about the following story should surprise you. With the caveat that the findings come from a conservative watchdog group, it would seem that a number of felons voted illegally for Al Franken in the 2008 Minnestota Senate election.

The six-month election recount that turned former "Saturday Night Live" comedian Al Franken into a U.S. senator may have been decided by convicted felons who voted illegally in Minnesota's Twin Cities.

That's the finding of an 18-month study conducted by Minnesota Majority, a conservative watchdog group, which found that at least 341 convicted felons in largely Democratic Minneapolis-St. Paul voted illegally in the 2008 Senate race between Franken, a Democrat, and his Republican opponent, then-incumbent Sen. Norm Coleman.

The final recount vote in the race, determined six months after Election Day, showed Franken beat Coleman by 312 votes -- fewer votes than the number of felons whose illegal ballots were counted, according to Minnesota Majority's newly released study, which matched publicly available conviction lists with voting records.

Click the link above to read the details if you are curious.

What is most annoying about these (unexpected!) findings is that one just knew that such shenanigans were in the mix as soon as the election was close. It is critical for a democracy to function that elections remain free of such corruption. The tenet that "if the people elected don't do the will of the people they will be voted out of office" only holds true if those elected don't control the elections.

Such charges should be very serious yet a search on keywords such s "felons vote Franken" return only the FoxNews link above and hundreds of conservative pundits talking about it. Ill-advised laws pushed through Congress via bureaucratic trickery may cause economic disaster but they can always be overturned or replaced by the next administration. But if elections don't remain free then what guarantee is there that there will be a next administration?


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Comments (46)

With the combination of Hol... (Below threshold)
jim m:

With the combination of Holder's DOJ, the existing dem apparatus for vote fraud with ACORN and the New Black Panthers, anyone who thinks that the dems are not expecting to hold on to their seats in the November election is a fool.

(Tenet.)If you wan... (Below threshold)
BlueNight:

(Tenet.)

If you want to see elections remain (or return to being) fair, do what I did: volunteer as a poll worker.

American elections are beco... (Below threshold)
arcman Author Profile Page:

American elections are becoming similar to playing the game with the refs stacked against you. It's still possible to win but you have to play faultless ball. We have gotten to the point in this country that we have to do a couple things: Learn to play hardball, and not let the Left get away with the amount of things they get away with, and make sure we get enough people to the polls so that they can't cheat. If it's not close they can't cheat.

So, is there anything that ... (Below threshold)

So, is there anything that indicates that these allegedly improper votes felons voted for Franken, and not Coleman?

Because if they voted like the rest of the MS population, it would have been 50% for Coleman and 50% for Franken - which would have narrowed Franken's lead but still left him ahead.

Same thing was happening in... (Below threshold)
914:

Same thing was happening in Florida 2000 only unlike my state which is full of Obama kissing socialist twist's they had a conservative majority and certified the results before Albert's leftists could figure out how much was needed to steal the election.

Now embarrassingly enough weve got a freak of nature in Franken. With a ferret face only Henry Waxman could love.

jim x - "Because if t... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x - "Because if they voted like the rest of the MS population, it would have been 50% for Coleman and 50% for Franken - which would have narrowed Franken's lead but still left him ahead."

Interestingly enough this study comes out of Minnesota. (PDF File)

To quote a small portion: "Because felons are drawn
disproportionately from the ranks of racial minorities and the poor, disfranchisement laws
tend to take votes from Democratic candidates."

Note it says "disfranchisement" which in the case of this post isn't relevant, the opposite is true.

Since when do election laws... (Below threshold)
Caesar Augustus:

Since when do election laws even apply to Democrats??

little jimmy x it is all co... (Below threshold)
Michael:

little jimmy x it is all coming crumbling down....so funny.

jim m"Wit... (Below threshold)
914:

jim m

"With the combination of Holder's DOJ, the existing dem apparatus for vote fraud with ACORN and the New Black Panthers, anyone who thinks that the dems are not expecting to hold on to their seats in the November election is a fool."


That is unfortunately all to true. With Holder being the grand poobah of the Panthers were going to see him go after Tea Party voter's with his brown shirts in jac boots. What has he got to lose?

" ~400 phony ACORN votes + ... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

" ~400 phony ACORN votes + Al Franken = passage of socialized medicine

election fraud has consequences

8. Posted by Les Nessman | December 18, 2009 9:51 AM |"

JIm x,You know ver... (Below threshold)
jim m:

JIm x,

You know very well that there is no way of knowing who someone voted for unless they themselves disclose that information.

You also know that polling has shown over and over again that the prison poopulation breaks strongly dem. The lieklihood is that those votes indeed gave him the winning magin. It is disingenuous to imply otherwise.

Jim M,You know ... (Below threshold)

Jim M,

You know very well that there is no way of knowing who someone voted for unless they themselves disclose that information.

Yes, I do know that. That's why I asked if there was any other evidence. Since there is apparently not, that's what makes this unprovable speculation.

You also know that polling has shown over and over again that the prison poopulation breaks strongly dem.

That's certainly true in some places. I don't know if that's true in a specific region like Minnesota. It seems like a pretty low minority population, as it's a far North state with a rather Scandinavian culture if "Fargo" is to be believed.

But even if this particular group of ex-prisoners is a large group of minorities, it have to be ALL minorities who then voted 90% Democrat to erase Franken's 312 vote lead - which is a pretty extreme slant even if it's an all-minority population.

And Les Nessman, if only we... (Below threshold)

And Les Nessman, if only we actually did get socialized medicine. Then we could be as well covered as other first world nations that actually give a crap about the health of people who don't have money. Imagine that.

No jim x, The twin cities ... (Below threshold)
914:

No jim x, The twin cities are a high minority area, especially in dem controlled districts, outstate it is low.

I would say 90% is about right on cue and you could even throw in some dead votes to make sure Franken won. Everytime there was a recount he magically got closer and closer.

Amazing.

"And Les Nessman, if only w... (Below threshold)
ODA315:

"And Les Nessman, if only we actually did get socialized medicine. Then we could be as well covered as other first world nations that actually give a crap about the health of people who don't have money. Imagine that"

I'll make sure and tell that to a buddy who lives in Vancouver. His wife Angela died waiting on a list for radiation treatment.

jim x,Obviously yo... (Below threshold)
jim m:

jim x,

Obviously you didn't bother to read the link Marc provided. Having been to the twin cities numerous times I can tell you that there is a sizable black population there as well as hispanic and asian. Minneapolis has a significant gang problem and not too long ago was being referred to as Murderapolis due to the gang violence there. It doesn't hold a candle to Detroit but so it was.

While outside of the city the population might be predominantly caucasian the overwhelming amount of criminal activity is in the metro area.

So to get back to the point, only the most disingenuous of people would deny that this is a distinct possibility.

As for socialized medicine providing better outcomes I would beg to differ. The US lead the world in nearly every single cancer diagnosis for long term survival. Compare prostate cancer survival in the US 97% to that in the UK 77%. One in 5 people in the UK will die unneccessarily.

If you consider that 97% for a moment you will realize that people who have no insurance are getting treated in the US and surviving their disease. So all the BS the left has put out over the past few years that we don't treat people without insurance is just that.

Quoth the present holder of... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Quoth the present holder of the Flea Ward Folding Chair of Trolldom:

Because if they voted like the rest of the MS population, it would have been 50% for Coleman and 50% for Franken

Please don't be so disingenuous. You'd have us believe that criminals vote for politicans who are tough on crime? Spare us.

There's a reason why Democrats want to give convicted felons the vote: they at least expect - if they don't know it for a lead pipe cinch - that criminals vote 99/1 for Democrats.

Birds of a feather, and all that.

Jim x...by your logi... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim x...
by your logic, the movie witness, featuring the Amish of Lancaster and Chester county PA, proves that the cities of Philadelphia and Chester are all white and speak a curious dialect of German...

Jim M,I just went ... (Below threshold)

Jim M,

I just went to the link, and saw no specific population breakdown for Minnesota's prison population.

Were there any that I missed, there? If so, please provide them.

As for the Minnesota prison population having a "sizable" amount of minorities - is it more than 95%? Because that's what it would have to be, for it to be barely possible that ALL of those votes went for Franken.

To suggest that this is more than a bare possibility without any actual statistical evidence, is what's truly disingenous.

As for socialized care and the US having better care for cancer - that's great. But cancer is only one disease that people face.

Which is besides the fact that those without insurance AREN'T automatically treated for cancer anyway. If they don't have coverage, it may not even be detected - because people don't go to emergency rooms before they have to.

And even if it is found out, cancer is a chronic condition that can't be treated in emergency rooms until it's far too late. Fighting cancer requires having regular doctors for months or even years - which simply is not possible for those without insurance or specific financial assistance.

But even if it *was* treatable without insurance, it is still only one disease among many - which is why the citizens of other nations overall live longer and better than those in the US, including cancer figures.

You'd have us believe th... (Below threshold)

You'd have us believe that criminals vote for politicans who are tough on crime? Spare us.

You'd have me believe that 100% of ANY population votes entirely for ANY one party or another?

If so, go find me some vote figures that say 100% of all prison populations vote Democrat.

Otherwise, spare me.

Here's the deal: for this c... (Below threshold)

Here's the deal: for this conspiracy theory to be even possible:

- more than 95% of the prison population of that area would have to be non-white
- close to 100% of that population would have to vote entirely for Franken *because* he's the Democratic candidate - because otherwise he's whiter than the snow in Fargo.

Notice that requires more than a simple majority of non-whites, and a simple majority of non-whites voting Democrat.

That's the problem with this theory.

jim x,The US leads... (Below threshold)
jim m:

jim x,

The US leads in survival rates for treatments of most diseases not just cancer. Cancer happens to be the area where the best statistics are kept.

The point is that our system provides better care than socialized systems and always has. You conveniently ignored the fact that in the US prostate ca survivors exceed the rate of people with insurance. The fact that they do proves that they are getting treated somehow and that our current forms of safety nets are working and working better than the socialized safety nets elsewhere.

Much disease is genetically predisposed or influenced by lifestyle. Healthcare does not prevent illness, but it can cure it or at least prolong life. Our system is far superior to any other based on survival after diagnosis. You cannot blame the healthcare system for people's unhealthy lifestyle choices of their genetics.

You are being dishonest with your arguments on this as well as the voting of felons.

Jim x,So your argu... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jim x,

So your argument boils down to "the illegal vote from this one source wasn't enough to swing the election in and of itself so it's OK that there was fraudulant voting."

Nice.

Geez, where was the N.B.P.P... (Below threshold)
LiberalNitemare:

Geez, where was the N.B.P.P.A.E.T.S when we needed them? (New Black Panther Party Anti-Election Tampering Squad)

Jim M, the title of this ar... (Below threshold)

Jim M, the title of this article is:

"Franken elected by felons?"

My argument is showing that this is basically impossible, **even if** there was election fraud.

Election fraud is of course a grievous wrong, should be investigated and if found should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, **regardless* of it's effect on any election's outcome.

But the gist of this article is to use a speculation that has very little possibility of being true, to cast doubt on Franken's lawfully being a Senator. That is what I disagree with.

Jim M, The US l... (Below threshold)

Jim M,

The US leads in survival rates for treatments of most diseases not just cancer. Cancer happens to be the area where the best statistics are kept.

And all other nations with so-called socialized healthcare defeat the US in terms of life expectancy and infant mortality. Two of the "best statistics" you are ignoring in your opinion - an omission which I could easily cast as "disingenous".

The point is that our system provides better care than socialized systems and always has.

If that is so completely and automatically true, then our life expectancy and infant mortality rates would be much greater than other first world nations - instead of being behind them.

Healthcare does not prevent illness, but it can cure it or at least prolong life.

Which would actually indicate that so-called "socialized" medicine of other first-world nations is actaully superior, since their citizens live longer AND their systems cost less money.

Our system is far superior to any other based on survival after diagnosis.

Once again, if that were true then our nation would have people living longer for less cost than "socialized" medicine - rather than living less long while we spend roughly twice as much money.

As with the felon argument, you are accusing me of dishonesty because you don't like being contradicted. I can understand not liking being disagreed with. But just because you are hearing something you disagree with, doesn't mean someone else is being dishonest. You could also simply be wrong.

"And all other nations with... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"And all other nations with so-called socialized healthcare defeat the US in terms of life expectancy and infant mortality. Two of the "best statistics" you are ignoring in your opinion - an omission which I could easily cast as "disingenous"."

As I said before life expectancy is not a function of health care but is more an issue of lifestyle and genetics. With obesity so dramatically high in the US are you going to suggest that it is the health care system that is the cause of it? Or are you going to suggest that our high rates of heart disease and diabetes are the result of a bad health care system?

If so I won't waste my time with such a fool.

Infant mortality is also widely regarded as a poor statistic as what is included in it varies widely from nation to nation. The US includes all deaths following live births in its data. Some nations will count deaths within several weeks as a stillbirth. MOst will count deaths shortly after birth as a stillbirth. We do not. We also get a large number of immigrants coming to this country for the purpose of having their child here for citizenship reasons and they have had no prenatal care. That skews our data.

So you have chosen two statistics that are not counted the same from nation to nation and have little or no reflection on the actual state of healthcare.

As for citizens of socialized medicine countries living longer, my comment was that once diagnosed with a serious illness we live longer. We have a 6% higher survival rate for cancer of all types higher than any nation on earth.

Healthcare effects whether you survive your illness not whether you get ill in the first place. That's why preventive medicine isn't cost effective. You can spend zillions of dollars on preventive medicine, but ultimately it's people's genes and their lifestyles that determine whether or not they get certain diseases. Healthcare didn't make people over eat or smoke or drink too much. Healthcare didn't give your friend a genetic predisposition for Breast ca. These things are outside the reach of health care. Socializing healthcare won't make them better it will just make the system for helping people who get sick worse.

We may have shorter life expectancies but not that much shorter than most other nations. Our lifestyles predispose us to higher risks for heart disease, kidney disease and diabetes. That is not an indictment of our health care system but of society in general.

You are confusing life expectancy with quality of health care. I am sorry if you cannot tell the difference between the two.

You are confusing life e... (Below threshold)

You are confusing life expectancy with quality of health care. I am sorry if you cannot tell the difference between the two.

You are stating that life expectancy is irrelevant to health care. I am sorry if you must deny any relationship between the two.

Yes, there are lifestyle differences between the US and other nations. This definitely has an effect on the populations. I don't see how a lifestyle difference is the sole reason why so many varied other nations and their "socialized care" all enable their citizens to **live longer** while spending **nearly half as much**.

I'm sure there is partisan analysts that compare different nations' statistics, in ways that adjust for different ways nation count infant mortalities, life expectancy and other stats.

If I find some of these and post them here, will you look at them?

I am not saying that there ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I am not saying that there is no relationship between the two, I am saying that the effects of lifestyle and genetic predisposition outweigh the benefits provided by good health care.

If you get diabetes it severly reduces your life expectancy. Heart disease as well. We lead the world in those two diagnoses. The fact that we live as long as we do is a testament to the quality of the health care system.

In Canada, at time of diagnosis with colon ca 80% of patients are deemed treatable. By the time the waiting period is over and the patient rises to the top of the list and can get treated the percent deemed treatable has fallen to 40%. So you sit at home waiting to find out if when you can finally get chemotherapy if you win that coin toss and you are lcky enough to have treatable disease. THAT's how they save money. I have talked to too many doctors from elsewhere to think that their systems are better than ours.

In the UK they refer to the NHS as providing a third world standard of health care. You want that for the US? That's what will be provided.

There are about 10 Democrat... (Below threshold)
John S:

There are about 10 Democrats that got into the Senate on stolen or otherwise shady elections. It's one of the reasons they will lose the Senate in November.

Jim x,In just 2 coun... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim x,
In just 2 counties, that happen to contain Minneapolis and St Paul, the study alleges that there were 1,359 felons that voted.
If 95% of them voted Franken, which you seem to think it would take, if we remove all felon votes including the 5% for Coleman, Coleman would win by 911 votes.
So it's not your 95% are not white and 100% of them voted Franken. No where near that. It would have only taken ~62% to voter Franken, regardless of race. I don't find it hard to believe that 6 of 10 felons would vote democratic. That's not far from the national average in the 2008 presidential election and far lower than some areas, like San Francisco.
It's a bit higher than the state's % for Obama (54%) but pretty close to how the state voted for their other democratic senator in 2006 (58%).

Five years ago, a Democrat ... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Five years ago, a Democrat governor by executive fiat gave all felons the right to vote in Iowa. "Gov. Tom Vilsack of Iowa announced yesterday that he would restore voting rights for all felons who have completed their sentence." June 18, 2005.

Just like with illegal aliens, the Democrats know who their likely voters are - those who value the law as little as they do.

jim x - "If that is s... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x - "If that is so completely and automatically true, then our life expectancy and infant mortality rates would be much greater than other first world nations - instead of being behind them."

You really that stupid not to see why?

In a nutshell, is not America by many, many accounts the fattest of the fattest of all industrialized nations?

That alone accounts for a large part of the problem.

As for infant morality rates I'd suggest study, in detail, how countries compile that figure.

It should be instructive, if it penetrates a possible thick skull.

jim x - "But the gist... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x - "But the gist of this article is to use a speculation that has very little possibility of being true, to cast doubt on Franken's lawfully being a Senator. That is what I disagree with."

Very LITTLE possibility?

Franken was trailing Coleman by 215 votes after the initial count in Nov. '08.

After all the challenges Franken won by 312 votes, a margin of victory of only 0.007%, and Colemen conceded in Jan '09.

Yeah, riiiight LITTLE possibility to you.

jim x "That's certainl... (Below threshold)
Marc:

jim x "That's certainly true in some places. I don't know if that's true in a specific region like Minnesota. It seems like a pretty low minority population, as it's a far North state with a rather Scandinavian culture if "Fargo" is to be believed."

Well that clears up my speculation, iof you drag out some half-backed movie as a characterization of a population... you ARE friggin' stupid.

First of all nitwit it's not minorities byt all convicted felons tend to vote the dem side of the ballot.

Secondly you apparently think Minn. natives are crime free or to a lesser exstent than other areas of the US.

Care to look at the Minn borad of corrections website.

A very quick look shows nearly 3000 sex offenders locked-up out of a total pop of over 10,000.

Care to research, rather than pull another move ref from your ass how many of the other 8,000 are violent criminals?

So in short, you are saying... (Below threshold)
Maddox:

So in short, you are saying our government was elected by a group of their peers?

Marc, it is a shame that so... (Below threshold)

Marc, it is a shame that someone disagreeing with your ideology apparently makes you pee your pants with fear and rage, causing you to fling around insults like a cranky toddler.

But as per the alleged point in your post at #35, the number of prisoners who are minorities, you may go back and look at post #6...which was made by a person with your same name, Marc.

i>To quote a small portion: "Because felons are drawn
disproportionately from the ranks of racial minorities and the poor, disfranchisement laws
tend to take votes from Democratic candidates."

The number of the ex-prisoner population who are minorities is directly relevant, as it's the MAIN REASON ex-prisoners vote Democrat -as quoted by someone who ***appears to be you***.

So if you think this is a stupid argument to be made - I suggest you a) grow up, and b) take it up with someone who actually appears to be you, and if so c) stop insulting yourself.

SCSIWuzzy, I"m going by the... (Below threshold)

SCSIWuzzy, I"m going by the number of felons this group alleges they actually found.

That's 341 voters. After the recount, Franken one by 312 votes. That means that over 90% of all these votes would have to go to Franken for him to win by one vote.

For that number of them go for Franken, literally 100% of them would have to be African-American - if not more, because as previously noted, Franken is whiter than Fargo snow.

If you read the article itself, you also may notice this tidbit tucked in there:

"The only way we can be wrong is if someone with the same first, middle and last names, same year of birth as the felon, and living in the same community, has voted. And that isn't very likely."

Well, it's likely enough that when Bush's brother Jeb tried to clear the rolls in Florida, hundreds and maybe ****thousands*** of legal voters were incorrectly denied their right to vote - often simply because they had the same names as felons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A99749-2001May30

I went to the Fox article this story references and the link that Marc provided before his tantrum, and was unable to find this 1,359 number.So, SCSIwuzzy, happy to look at the study you're referring to - just need a link.

This is skipping over a number of problems with this study, including that it comes from a "conservative watchdog group" - which means it is most definitely partisan. And also including that Marc's study dates from 2001, and references population data from before that.

If I hadn't thought better ... (Below threshold)

If I hadn't thought better of it at the time, Comment #4 would have been from me -- predicting exactly what happened in this thread.

It didn't require clairvoyant abilities though; trolls like Jim X are just that predictable.

Jim X, since it would have ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim X, since it would have only taken a 6 of 10 ratio of felons to give Franken the victory he received, is it still so hard to believe?
Minnesota's "minority" population (non-Hispanic whites [I don't come up with these labels...]) is 87.5%, so the minority population is 12.5%.
Currently the prison demographics are 54.1% white (which includes Hispanic Caucasians), so I will infer that the parole and fully discharged population is similar. Looking on the Star Tribune's site, they broke down the white voting trend (they just did black vs white, and the black vote was too small for them to analyze...) which on a straight white basis would give Coleman a 43 - 40 advantage for that 54.1% group if you assume that felons vote like the rest of the population.
More interesting is the breakdown by income...
Until you get into the $50k and above groupings Coleman trails Franken significantly.
While I am sure MN has some white collar felons, and some of those managed to get back into professions that pay $50k+, I am guessing that vast majority of felons fall into the lower income brackets. In these brackets Franken leads by 54-28 for those under $15k, 52-33 for the $15k-30k crowd.
Now if we assume that 90% of the felon population fall into these demographics (and I am being generous here) and assume that felons vote like the population at large (and I think I am insulting the population at large by doing so...) we still get 48.5% voting Franken and 35.6% for Coleman (the remaining 16% for the ind. candidate)

SCSIWuzzy, without taking a... (Below threshold)

SCSIWuzzy, without taking a deep look at the math you present, the issue is felons who should not be able to vote but are voting illegally.

I'd need some sort of reliable breakdown that there are enough ex-prisoners who can vote but should not be able to, in Minnesota, in large enough numbers that could have erased Franken's lead.

There are further problems after that, including how many of this group would actually turn out to vote. But that's a separate issue.

jim x,Franken won, i... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

jim x,
Franken won, in a state of over 5 million people, by 312 votes
In two counties alone, 1,359 felons are believed to have voted illegally.
In Ramsey county, the study believes they found 460 felons voting, and the county attorney's office believe that when the dust settles their investigation may exceed that number.

It's not a question of could have voted even though they shouldn't, it is that they DID vote.

Just looking at those 2 counties you have enough fraudulent votes (not possible, but actual) to account for Franken's lead more than 4 times over. They may not have all voted for Franken, but nowhere near all of them had to.

SCSIWuzzy, I just want to s... (Below threshold)

SCSIWuzzy, I just want to see where you get that number of 1,359 felons. I didn't see that in the linked article at the top of this page, or the pdf that was lined to by Marc.

jim x,From the artic... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

jim x,
From the article that this post is discussing

The report said that in Hennepin County, which in includes Minneapolis, 899 suspected felons had been matched on the county's voting records...
...and
The report says that in Ramsey, 460 names on voting records were matched with felon lists...

Granted, I was doing my math for #31 after a couple of beers last night on a napkin, but I'm pretty sure that those two numbers equal 1359.

Your 341 number is for just the Twin Cities, and is a subset of the 2 counties.
I would suggest that before you say

If you read the article itself,

that you should, you know, read the article yourself with an eye towards critical comprehension. :)

I'll grant that there may be false positives in there, but even Ramsey county's attorney's office believes they may have more felons that fraudulently cast ballots than the margin of Franken's victory.

That is something that should concern us regardless of political persuasion and regardless of who benefited from the fraud this time.

Well SCSIwizy, I've been as... (Below threshold)

Well SCSIwizy, I've been asking for the source of that number for several comments now. So, reading comprehension might be of interest to you too.

That said, OK. That's a more acceptable percentage, that if accurate could have swung this election. I agree this should be looked into, with an eye towards making this sort of occurrence impossible in the future.

Jim, given that the source ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Jim, given that the source was the article we are discussing, I didn't think you could miss it for so long, and until comment 43 I held out hope. I didn't want to lead off with insulting you...

I don't like saying things like "read the article" unless I am dealing with someone like Lee or BryanD that lost the courtesy grant years ago.




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