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Intolerable

OK, this shit's gotta stop.

No, that's not quite right.

That shit's gotta be stomped down, and stomped down HARD.

In Utah, someone's put together a list of alleged illegal aliens, complete with names, addresses, dates of birth, Social Security numbers (apparently ones they've allegedly stolen), workplaces, even names of children and pregnant women's due dates. Then, under the name of "Concerned Citizens Of America," they've sent the list to a variety of people and organizations, including state agencies and media outlets.

The list has about 1,300 names, and mostly seem to be Hispanic.

I'm a hawk on illegal immigration issues. I have no problems declaring that the law is the law, and needs -- desperately needs -- to be enforced. I am utterly disgusted with the Obama administration's militant refusal to do what it swore to do a year ago January 20.

But this... this is so far over the line that it can't even see the line.

Remember the fuss in California when those who had supported the gay marriage ban had their names, addresses, and work places publicized, and many were harassed and hounded for daring to express their opinions? That was wrong.

This is the same damned thing, to the nth degree.

We have no idea who is behind the list. We have no idea about it accuracy. And if it has even one person on that list who is not an illegal alien, then the distributors have committed a serious crime, if not several. ("Libel" and "harassment" and "reckless endangerment" come to mind. "Accessory to Identity Theft" might not be an actual crime, but if it is, toss that in there too.)

I have my own theory who did this, in a general sense. Actually, two.

The first is that some whackjob in a position to access this sort of information (I'd look at government workers in the welfare/human services department) put it together out of disgust over what they saw as illegal aliens getting what they saw as undeserved benefits at American taxpayer expense, and decided to do something about it.

The second, less likely but still possible, theory, is that someone in a similar position but more pro-illegal-alien put togther the list, "salted" it with some people they knew were not illegal aliens, and sent it out to discredit the enforce-the-law side.

In any case, I doubt that the "Concerned Citizens Of America" (an exceptionally generic name) number more than a couple -- at best. It smells like the sort of thing that one guy (and I'd bet it was a man) uses to make it seem like he's not just some lone nut.

Regardless, the distributor of this list needs to be identified and prosecuted. There's no way I can see for this list to be assembled without breaking some serious privacy laws, and sending it out violates even more of them.

And if/when he's caught, regardless of his motivation, he needs to spend some serious quality time behind bars.

We don't need this shit. And we need to make certain nobody else is tempted to try anything like this again.


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Comments (41)

Jay: Don't worry. This Ad... (Below threshold)
Bob:

Jay: Don't worry. This Administration may patrol the border but it has no interest in evicting those who have made it into the US through whatever means. Even if they go to Arizona after July 29, are caught and turned over to the feds, I expect our DOJ to release them so as not to stretch its scarce resources. After all, if you can't catch all the law-breakers, why try to catch any of them?

Yeah, it's either just a wh... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

Yeah, it's either just a whackjob or a pro-illegal alien plant.

OT - new book about Anne Frank just released on July 12th:

"A graphic novel version of Anne Frank's biography was released in the Netherlands.

The 160-page book, launched last Friday, uses text and illustrations to tell Anne's story and make connections between her life and historical events during the period."

Say I'm Juan Smith, third-g... (Below threshold)
James H:

Say I'm Juan Smith, third-generation American, SSN 123-45-6789. And somewhere out an illegal immigrant took the alias Juan Smith and discovered that he can get a job with the SSN 123-45-6789. Now this fact has been disseminated willy-nilly. Now, I've got to deal with a bunch of people assuming that I'm an illegal immigrant ... and my name and SSN are out there for any potential fraudster to take and use. Thanks a lot guys.

It smells to high heaven. I... (Below threshold)
exceller:

It smells to high heaven. I would be very surprised if this anonymous group wasn't from the pro-illegal side of things. Regardless I hope they find out who put togther the list and that they get whats coming to them.

Yeah, it's either just a... (Below threshold)

Yeah, it's either just a whackjob or a pro-illegal alien plant.

That's my hunch, Adrian. Largely based on my own speculations, but let me expound on it a little.

There are very few places that such complete information about people would be aggregated. "Health Care" and "Welfare" are two such places. Further, "Welfare" includes "public health care," so that increases the odds that the source is a government worker.

Most government workers, especially those in the welfare field, tend to be liberals. And most liberals support illegal aliens and oppose enforcing existing laws, let alone passing new laws.

On the other hand, a disillusioned social worker who's fed up with illegal aliens getting public benefits could also be the source.

I tend to think that people are marginally more sincere than deceptive, so I give more weight to the possibility that the leaker is an anti-illegal-alien person. But we've seen enough "false flag" operations (like the fake "Tea Party" in Nevada set up by Democratic apparatchiks, among others) that it's also a possibility. So I give that a slightly less likelihood.

So, Adrian, those are my theories and my reasoning. Care to offer your own? Hell, care to make a wager on it? I'll say that it will be one of the two I've outlined above, and that the "Concerned Citizens Of America" that did this will have a membership in single digits. What's your prediction?

J.

"And we need to make certai... (Below threshold)
gary gulrud:

"And we need to make certain nobody else is tempted"

We're a nation of laws, laws for lawyers made by lawyers. The Police, more and more, are like those in Britain and Italy, enforcing behavior on law abiding citizens. They are unable or unwilling to protect and serve.

There is your crux, your fulcrum-pick up those turds and fling again.

Jay, Adrian has no predicti... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

Jay, Adrian has no prediction. Adrian just wants to spout off-topic statements and make snide remarks. In other words, Adrian has nothing to offer.

Me? I think it's an anti-illegal alien nut case. I have no problem with the anti-illegal alien part. It's the nut case part I take issue with.

Just two possibilities. The... (Below threshold)
OLDPUPPYMAX:

Just two possibilities. The first, it's a pro-illegal alien thug, working to discredit those of us who want these people deported. The second possibility, it's someone fed up with the total inaction of Big Brother in the person of the Hussein regime. However, if he/she is criticized and subsequently jailed for publishing the names and addresses of criminals, every reporter for every newspaper should join this individual behind bars. Aren't the names of thieves, murderers, rapists etc published? (At least, unless their identity--ie RACE, ETHNICITY-- are NOT disclosed so as to not interfere with the leftist agenda.) Now if those named on the list are indeed NOT here illegally, this individual should be punished according to the law. If they ARE illegally in the US, he should be Knighted. By the way, arguing this is no different from the publication of the names of those against the homosexual agenda in Kalifornia will not wash. That individual did NOT publish the names of criminals and should therefore be prosecuted.

I do have questions about t... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

I do have questions about the list.

Is it accurate? If so, where did it come from? How did the originator "find" these people when the all-knowing, all-seeing Federal government says that it can't?

"How did the originator ... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"How did the originator "find" these people when the all-knowing, all-seeing Federal government says that it can't?"

Excellent question, but one that I think we all know the answer to.

Holder will get right on it... (Below threshold)
914:

Holder will get right on it.

Social Security nu... (Below threshold)
Anon Y. Mous:
Social Security numbers (apparently ones they've allegedly stolen)

Who is making that allegation? There's nothing about it at your link. Is it something you just made up? You are assuming criminal activity without one scintilla of evidence. There are all kinds of companies that do background checks of people merely by searching public records, and there is all kinds of stuff that can be found in public records, including social security numbers.

If the list is accurate and was lawfully compiled, then it is perfectly legitimate. The criminals are the ones who are here illegally.

OLDPUPPYMAX,<blockquo... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

OLDPUPPYMAX,

However, if he/she is criticized and subsequently jailed for publishing the names and addresses of criminals, every reporter for every newspaper should join this individual behind bars. Aren't the names of thieves, murderers, rapists etc published? (At least, unless their identity--ie RACE, ETHNICITY-- are NOT disclosed so as to not interfere with the leftist agenda.)

Names are generally published when people are detained by law enforcement, and there is a reason why the news media uses the words "suspect" and/or "alleged" all the time.

Do you really want people to start sidestepping our legal procedures and publishing lists of people who they think are breaking the law? Really?

Now if those named on the list are indeed NOT here illegally, this individual should be punished according to the law. If they ARE illegally in the US, he should be Knighted.

Ah, I see. So if they get it right, they get rewarded. And if they happen to ruin the lives of a few American citizens, they go to jail. How about skipping this kind of vigilante bullshit and instead leaving this up to trained law enforcement officers instead? The same laws and procedures that protect the rights of SUSPECTED law breakers and criminals ALSO PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS. Don't forget that.

I am pretty sure that we do not want to turn this into some massive free-for-all.

By the way, arguing this is no different from the publication of the names of those against the homosexual agenda in Kalifornia will not wash. That individual did NOT publish the names of criminals and should therefore be prosecuted.

This is where you seem to be missing the bigger point, MAX. How do you know that these people are criminals? Based upon what evidence? Because it SOUNDS like they are? Is that how you think our system is supposed to work? You see, these people are innocent until proven guilty according to our legal system, not proven criminals.

Actions like this are only going to make things worse, and they are going to result in god knows how many civil lawsuits.

I completely agree with Jay Tea on this one.

Jay,OK, Ima hafta ... (Below threshold)
Sheik Yur Bouty:

Jay,

OK, Ima hafta disagree with you here, at least in part.

Remember the fuss in California when those who had supported the gay marriage ban had their names, addresses, and work places publicized, and many were harassed and hounded for daring to express their opinions? That was wrong.

This is the same damned thing, to the nth degree.

The people in California were exercising their LEGAL/CONSTITUTIONAL right to free speech.

The people on this list (and, yes, I'm assuming the list is accurate for the sake of this argument) are here ILLEGALLY, and therefore have no right to even be here.

Do we know whether "Concerned Citizens Of America" made efforts behind the scenes to get this list to the proper authorities? If they made every effort to get the authorities to do their job (enforce the damn law) and those authorities chose not to, then I won't condemn "Concerned Citizens Of America" for their actions here. I find it more akin to civil disobedience against "The Man" than the situation in California.

Regardless, they certainly should have withheld the SSNs. On that we can agree.

-syb

Anon, sorry about the carel... (Below threshold)

Anon, sorry about the careless phrasing. I meant that IF the people on the list are illegal aliens AND the list provides Social Security numbers, then I am presuming (or "alleging") that the numbers are stolen, as lack of an SS # is a pretty good indicator of illegal alien status. Likewise, possession of a valid one usually means the possessor is NOT an illegal alien.

That's why the inclusion of the SS # jumped out at me as very odd and why I highlighted it.

J.

While the drums are being b... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

While the drums are being beaten because of 'the list', no one has yet said whether it's valid or not.

At this point, I think that alone speaks volumes.

Many individuals have reported their SSAN as being stolen and used, some in MULTIPLE states at the same time. Yet the administration of "Yes we can!", can't seem to find the individuals doing this. Despite the fact that they have a NAME and a COMPANY and a LOCATION where they might be found. IF anyone cared to LOOK.

SYB,The p... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

SYB,

The people on this list (and, yes, I'm assuming the list is accurate for the sake of this argument) are here ILLEGALLY, and therefore have no right to even be here.

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the list is accurate and all of these people are here in the US illegally for one reason or another. As you say, they do not have the right to be here legally. Correct. But what RIGHTS do they have under our system of law? How are we going to deal with these people? Do they have the right to fair and just treatment by our law enforcement system?

Here are a few more questions for you. Do you think that all illegal immigrants should be treated the same? Should violent criminals be treated the same as people who migrate here to find work, or people who overstay their visas? You see, this isn't just some simple solution, and if you read the linked article and consider the position of ICE you might get that. There is a reason why they avoid broad immigration sweeps.

Even if all names on the li... (Below threshold)

Even if all names on the list are illegal aliens, there is absolutely no value in making the list public. As "ryan a" says:

Actions like this are only going to make things worse, and they are going to result in god knows how many civil lawsuits.

I completely agree with Jay Tea on this one.
Me too.

Sorry about the error above... (Below threshold)

Sorry about the error above. The line "I completely agree with Jay Tea on this one" is from "ryan a"'s comment.

I would never support this ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I would never support this kind of intrusion in the debate. It is vile and totally unfair.

I have been involved in politics and political discussions for 35 years. One thing I have learned is if an act if vile and unfair, it was done by the democratic machine. Or more procise, a pro amnesty group that had helped these people get fake documentation in the past. The reason they are doing this is simply to garner sympathy for the plight. How mean conservatives are a Tea Party people in particular. There is no positive result for a Pro Arizona group to achieve by an action of this kind. Pro amnesty group's fingerprints are all over this. ww

Some things are, or ought t... (Below threshold)

Some things are, or ought to be, beyond the pale -- and in that regard it makes no difference which side did it or why.

I too am with Jay Tea.

I completely agree with ... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

I completely agree with Jay Tea on this one.

Me too.

Me too. There's no place for this kind of crap. It may or may not be legal, depending on exactly what they posted and how they got it, but it's still a crappy thing to do. Just like when the Proposition 8 opponents did it.

Shameful.

Or more procise, a... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:
Or more procise, a pro amnesty group that had helped these people get fake documentation in the past. The reason they are doing this is simply to garner sympathy for the plight. How mean conservatives are a Tea Party people in particular. There is no positive result for a Pro Arizona group to achieve by an action of this kind. Pro amnesty group's fingerprints are all over this

Makes a lot of sense. Applying the cui bono test, what would an opponent of illegal immigration gain by doing this? Embarrassing the state a bit, but that's about it. It's not likely that LEOs are going to use the list to track down people.

OTOH, what would an illegal immigration proponent gain? Embarrassing opponents, making them look nasty and mean-spirited, generate grist for leftist propaganda, stir sympathy for illegal immigrants...much more substantial motivation, methinks.

Great points upthread about the likely source of the list. How would your average Joe ever come by such information?

So I provisionally pencil this one in one left's side, alongside

1) the leftist numbnuts who threw a brick through the window of a Democrat Party office,

2) the black woman who hung a noose on her own door, and

3) the wholly unsubstantiated claims that Tea Partiers spit on and used racial epithets toward black Congressmen. Breitbart still has his $100 K. Case closed.

I think the left is more prone to outrageous behavior because its adherents include a high proportion of the young, the stupid, and the ruthless ideologues, groups not known for sound judgment and moral compass.

This list is disturbing on ... (Below threshold)
James H:

This list is disturbing on a lot of levels. According to The New York Times, it was sent to major media outlets and to federal immigration authorities. As Jay Tea reports, it contains names, addresses, and Social Security numbers. It ALSO contains due dates for pregnant women -- material that probably comes from medical records.

I find it very, very disturbing that somebody has essentially taken confidential information and -- with very little discretion -- leaked it to the national media. Leaving aside that we can't know for certain whether any given individual on this list is an illegal immigrant without speaking to them, the fact is that somebody apparently has access to all sorts of confidential information and is willing to use it as a weapon.

That breach of confidentiality needs to be stopped. Immediately. And cold.

If it become's about race a... (Below threshold)
914:

If it become's about race and racism it's a sure thing Larazza or whatever thier name are behind it.

Let's say the speculation i... (Below threshold)
Anon Y. Mous:

Let's say the speculation is right: someone in a welfare office compiled this list. Well, what does that tell us about the people on the list? That they are here illegally and collecting welfare. Getting free medical care to have their anchor babies, all on my dime, in violation of the law.

But, interestingly enough, what does everyone get excited about? That the privacy rights of these criminal leeches have been violated. Period. Not that plus the fact that all these criminals are defrauding our welfare system. No, no, no. Because they are victims, you see.

Bullshit.

If I break into a neighbor's home, and find evidence of their involvement in the creation of child pornography, I would have a choice to make. If I go report this to the authorities, I would be admitting to my own crime. But, even if I have to answer for my misdeeds, it does not mean that my neighbor gets to skip away. He too is a criminal, and should also pay for his crimes.

Anon:"Let's say th... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

Anon:

"Let's say the speculation is right: someone in a welfare office compiled this list. Well, what does that tell us about the people on the list? That they are here illegally and collecting welfare."

This is why speculation is usually a waste of time. Now you're arguing a fictitious point.

"But, interestingly enough, what does everyone get excited about? That the privacy rights of these criminal leeches have been violated. Period."

Wrong. You're getting all worked up and missing the bigger point. This is about the way that our legal system works. People are innocent until proven guilty. You are already assuming that all of these people are "criminals," but based upon what proof? What evidence? Because IT SEEMS to be the case? Well, if we let our legal system work on the hunches and assumptions we would be in a real mess.

The goal is to enforce laws without destroying some basic principles about human rights, privacy, and dignity.

Step back and think about this. Do you really want our legal system to work like some kind of vigilante mob, where people are turned in solely on the basis of their neighbors' suspicions? What happens when innocent peoples' lives get destroyed? What happens when peoples' rights get trampled? Talk about a slippery slope.

Yes, laws need to be enforced. And yes, the immigration system needs to be addressed, seriously addressed. But not like this.

At a minimum, the perpetrat... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

At a minimum, the perpetrator was someone opposing illegal immigration in a truly unacceptable and utterly reprehensible way.

On the other hand, if the perpetrator was someone supporting illegal immigration, he is not only on the hook for the violation of privacy outlined above, but also for the equally unacceptable and reprehensible attempt to smear political opponents through fraud and deceit, thereby compounding his offense.

Hmmmm. Lee W gets himself ... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

Hmmmm. Lee W gets himself banned from Wizbang, and suddenly this happens.

Coincidence?

I don't think so.

"Let's say the speculati... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

"Let's say the speculation is right: someone in a welfare office compiled this list. Well, what does that tell us about the people on the list? That they are here illegally and collecting welfare."

IF they are collecting welfare AND they are here illegally. Even then, this was a chickenshit move on someone's part, and I wholeheartedly condemn it.

Also, consider the likelihood of confusion between people of similar names. I have a generic name of the English yeomanry (not quite "John Smith," but close) and I get hassled all the time (e.g., last night) by debt collectors looking for people of similar name. (Other branches of the wildly extended family apparently take a relaxed attitude about paying their debts.) If some debt collector in this connection published my name and details I'd be thoroughly pissed.

My fellow Jay has it right:... (Below threshold)

My fellow Jay has it right: if there is a single name, address, Social Security number, or employer on there that is incorrect, the potential harm is incredible. And out of a list of 1,300 people, the odds of them ALL being illegal aliens -- without a single typo, transposed digit, or other mistaken identity -- is simply not worth calculating.

I stand by what I said: the most likely source of this is a public assistance database, and the leaker is either a nutjob anti-illegal-immigration militant or a nutjob pro-illegal-alien militant pulling a "false flag" stunt. I give the former slightly more probability, but in either case I want them identified, charged, and locked up.

And I am so glad that I am not alone there. Thanks, folks.

DJ, I'd have to see the original notice sent out before I rendered judgment on that suspect. I doubt it, though. For all his other flaws (and man, were they legion), he was always up-front about his motives and agenda. Not exactly the type to pull a stunt like this.

Kind of like imagining Bernie Madoff sitting at home typing up Nigerian 419 e-mail scams. It's scummy, but the wrong flavor of scummy.

J.

If there is an organization... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

If there is an organization (which I am sure there are several) that exist to help illegal aliens get papers so they can work and healthcards for Medicaid, etc. This same group has the data on hand because they issues it. That makes much more sense to me then anti immigrant people. I will leave a small chance that I may be wrong, but publicly the illegal immigrant debate is on the side of those against it. We don't need ammo. ww

"I find it very, very distu... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

"I find it very, very disturbing that somebody has essentially taken confidential information and -- with very little discretion -- leaked it to the national media. ... the fact is that somebody apparently has access to all sorts of confidential information and is willing to use it as a weapon.

That breach of confidentiality needs to be stopped. Immediately. And cold. "

For some reason I'm reminded of the NY Times (as just one example) revealing info that was damaging to national security and put Americans in danger. Or Joe the Plumber.

Anyhoo, I'm against tactics like this, but I don't think this particular case warrants such outrage.

Les Nessman makes a great p... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Les Nessman makes a great point. The dem's have recently divulged personal information publicly for political gain. ww

#33I immediately t... (Below threshold)
914:

#33

I immediately thought of the NY slime's to upon hearing this story.

Im not outraged but if it were Me I would be livid. Kind of like identity theft even if you are illegal your personage is out there for whom ever to see and use.

I agree with JT, except it ... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

I agree with JT, except it is not clear that laws were violated in assembling the list - as mentioned in an early comment, there are perfectly legitimate ways to get this information, at least most of it.

Of course, if any were obtained illegally, it should be prosecuted as any other violation.

BUT it isn't altogether fair to point the finger solely at the individual or group who assembled the list and "leaked it to the national media." The media didn't have to publish it or even mention it. Sure, the author could post it on a web site, but that would make his identity easier to trace, and web posts rarely get the instant credibility and dissemination of stories in the weakening but still strong legacy media.

I tend to agree with those ... (Below threshold)
John:

I tend to agree with those that are some what perplexed by what publishing this list accomplishes, first off the vast majority of conservatives and like minded people that want illegal immigration addressed aren't the type of people to go to an individuals house and harrass or harm them. That's more a tatic of union thugs and antiarchist. So if someone intended to rile up the tea party to go do harm to someone it's highly unlikely to work.

On the other hand if you want to make someone look bad and assuming the lazy ass media will connect the wrong dots for you (oppose illegal immigration = right wing) this make perfect sense.

Of course the right has kooks too that don't think past the end of their nose so I suppose either side might be behind it. Because of the potential harm that could come to someone if a "kook" decided to take action I think this is very bad thing for someone to have done.

Last point if the people on the list are illegals the SSN numbers are already stolen so I think that peice of info wouldn't make much diffence from a violation of privacy perspective.

Agreed, there is never a go... (Below threshold)
Shane:

Agreed, there is never a good reason for disclosing confidential information to the public at large. As much as I support a crackdown in "undocumented immigrants", nothing good can come of this.

As seen in a news release:<... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

As seen in a news release:

"Utah officials have identified at least two state workers who apparently accessed confidential documents to create a list of 1,300 purported illegal immigrants."

"Gov. Gary Herbert said Friday that the employees work for the Department of Workforce Services, which administers food stamp programs and other public benefits. The employees have been placed on administrative leave."

Remember the fuss in Califo... (Below threshold)
Trump:

Remember the fuss in California when those who had supported the gay marriage ban had their names, addresses, and work places publicized, and many were harassed and hounded for daring to express their opinions? That was wrong.

This is the same damned thing, to the nth degree.


>>>>> So the CA prop supporters were ILLEGALS?

yup, totally the same, no difference here. Nope, not a single thing.

John accurately observes th... (Below threshold)

John accurately observes that conservatives who want illegal immigration addressed won't go to an individual's house and harass or harm him.

But John misses the real point here which is that those who suffer the FasciSSocialist Psychosis -- and every other fascist, including the ideologues and those driven only by their own envy, hatred , scorn and/or derision -- defines himself by pathologically projecting the content of his own character.

Makes it about a New York City to a single brick lay-down misère that those who released this stuff are Lefties.




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