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No Submission Here

Well, the planned Ground Zero Mosque/"Muslim Community Center located coincidentally close enough to Ground Zero that debris from one of the airliners landed on its roof" is continuing to stir controversy.

I've made my own position clear: I oppose it. I don't know what can be done, legally, to stop it, but I would very much like to see it stopped.

Andrew McCarthy's piece over at National Review sums up a lot of really, really good points, but there's a few things more that need to be brought up.

Islam is, at its core, an aggressive religion. It actively promotes spreading its faith by force and conquest. And, historically, it makes a point of supplanting pre-existing faiths and symbology thereof.

For example, Mecca. Mecca was a very important city before the founding of Islam, and the city was run by what we would call pagans. Mohammed was born there, and his conquest of Mecca began the spread of Islam by the sword.

The holiest place in Islam? A former pagan high holy site. After the conquest, the it was stripped of its pagan elements and declared for Muslims only. Non-Muslims are forbidden by law from even setting foot in the city.

Then there's Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount.

The Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism. According to the Jews, it is where God's creation of the Earth started. It is where God gathered the dust to form Adam. It is where Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac.

When the Jews decided to build their first, most important temple, it is where they built it. Then, when they were conquered by the Babylonians, it was destroyed. They rebuilt it, and then they were conquered by the Romans -- who destroyed that one. The only remnant of that second temple is the Western Wall. The Jews say that they will not build the Third Temple until their Messiah arrives, and that temple will stand forever.

Many are also reluctant to set foot on the site of the Temple directly. Jewish law forbids all but a few from stepping on the place where the Holy Presence rested, and they don't want to take the chance of stumbling on it by accident.

Well, when the Muslims conquered Jerusalem in the 630s, they suddenly decided that they had found the site of Mohammed's last moments on earth. According to the Koran, he didn't die; he physically ascended into heaven on a horse or some such thing. His point of departure wasn't spelled out, but Muslim scholars at the time decided that it must have been atop the Temple Mount (despite the fact that Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. So they built two mosques atop the ruins of the two Jewish temples and promptly forbade any non-Muslim from setting foot up there.

And even to this day, Muslim "scholars" and "archaeologists" are busy trying to erase any evidence that the Jews ever had a presence on the Temple Mount.

That's "Islam's Holiest Sites Number One And Three." Let's take a look now at a former mosque -- the Great Mosque Of Cordoba.

During the Muslim invasion of Europe, they occupied a large portion of Spain. One Muslim leader bought a Visigothic Christian church that had fallen into disuse and started converting it into a mosque. It became one of the most important Islamic sites in Muslim Europe.

And a key element was the symbolism that it was built on the site of a former Christian church. Just like in Mecca, just like in Jerusalem, it had to be shown that Islam was greater than the preceding faiths that had held the site, and the building of the mosque was a sign that the area had submitted to Islam. (Remember, "Islam" does NOT mean "peace," it means "submission.")

This message was not lost on the conquered Europeans. After the Muslims were driven off, they went in and converted the Great Mosque of Cordoba to a Catholic cathedral.

The relevance here? The New York City project is to be named after the Great Mosque of Cordoba.

The parallels are inescapable, especially when dealing with a culture like Islam that is so wrapped up in symbolism. The New York City project is in a building acquired not by conquest but by legal purchase, and is situated very, very close to a site that many Americans hold sacrosanct -- a site where almost 3,000 people were killed by people who proclaimed their actions in the name of Allah and a great victory for Islam.

That the backers plan to open their mosque on September 11, 2011 -- the tenth anniversary of the attack -- can not be a coincidence.

As I said, I don't know if there is any legal way to stop the mosque project from going forward. Whether or not it is stopped, though, it must never be forgotten that its purpose is to assert and advance the conquest of the United States by Islam.

And I will never submit to that.


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Comments (41)

The planned building is com... (Below threshold)
Russ:

The planned building is community center, not a mosque, and you've attributed motives to the project's proponents that, quite frankly, aren't based in fact.

Besides, the building that's planned isn't at ground zero, it's several blocks away.

Personally I see nothing wrong with it.

And once the government limits the freedom of one religion then we all will suffer. Do we want the government to decide where we can congregate? Seriously?

Let them build it. And the Mayor of New York agrees, let them build it.

The planned building is com... (Below threshold)
Jeff L:

The planned building is community center, not a mosque, and you've attributed motives to the project's proponents that, quite frankly, aren't based in fact.

Besides, the building that's planned isn't at ground zero, it's several blocks away.

Personally I see nothing wrong with it.

And once the government limits the freedom of one religion then we all will suffer. Do we want the government to decide where we can congregate? Seriously?

Let them build it. And the Mayor of New York agrees, let them build it.

Don't confuse Jay with the facts. He was having fun shredding the first amendment.

Its bad enough that we have... (Below threshold)
bostinks2:

Its bad enough that we have a muslin in the highest office of the land. Dont need islam hatred or racist ideals to flourish here.

Surely there are enough wis... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

Surely there are enough wise guys left in the city to take care of this . . .

"Nice mosque you have there, Haji. Shame if anything should happen to it . . ."

We already gave the moslems... (Below threshold)
s/w2001:

We already gave the moslems a victory marker in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Let's give them one in New York City as well! How about one at the Pentagon too?

The MOSQUE (not a community... (Below threshold)
CODEKEYGUY:

The MOSQUE (not a community center, unless you mean an Obama/ACORN community center) is an "in your face" insult to America.
It is roughly 600 feet from Ground Zero.
Jim Addison is Right On!! Also the suggestion that pork BBQ joints be opened on each side of this atrocity.
ISLAM is not a religion, it is a vile, murderous rule designed by a pedophile.
Russ and Jeff-Taking lessons in idiocy from "He who shall remain nameless here"?

Jeff, you're right. And it'... (Below threshold)
Russ:

Jeff, you're right. And it's not even a mosque they are trying to build. Do you see how many times Mr. Tea uses the word "mosque" to describe this project?

It isn't a mosque. It's a community center.

Russ and Jeff L are certain... (Below threshold)
Sky_Captain:

Russ and Jeff L are certainly good little dihimmis, aren't they?
Got their "Nameless one" talking points down, too - including the personal attacks on the author, as they can't really debate the subject.

Andrew McCarthy's article shows the "community center" for what it is.
If Russ and Jeff are so smart, why don't they provide links proving their point of view?

Jeff L - "...and you've att... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Jeff L - "...and you've attributed motives to the project's proponents that, quite frankly, aren't based in fact."

I won't be willing to accept that statement until you provide documentation by which we can ascertain that you have some special knowledge by which you are able to speak to the motivation of others. Or are you telling us you are part of that community.

"Besides, the building that's planned isn't at ground zero, it's several blocks away."

And they recovered bodies floating in the East River, so what's your point (if we were face to face jus now I'd make reference to a specific body part by name here)?

"Personally I see nothing wrong with it."

And I see nothing wrong with kicking toads out of my way. All I need to know is who's a toad.

"And once the government limits the freedom of one religion..."

Now that is lame. Permitting agencies, land use agencies, they have been limiting everyone's rights since those types of agencies came into existence. People, businesses, charitable organizations, and religious groups have all already had their rights restricted. You been in a coma or something, son?

As for the rest of your post, I prefer to not comment about things that were pulled out of someone else's ass.

"And I will never submit... (Below threshold)
Knightbrigade:

"And I will never submit to that."

I think that the majority (*not all* wink wink liberals) of America right NOW will agree with that statement.

The FUN for islam will begin when they push too far, and then an aggressive response comes.
It would be funny to see the symbolic BS that muslims implement be used against them.

Big smile at the thought of any mosques in conquered areas converted to a Hooters.

There can be no peace with ... (Below threshold)
LenS:

There can be no peace with Islam. They say it themselves repeatedly and it's laid down in the Koran. Yet too many Westerners would rather deceive themselves into believing that there can be peace with Islam. Fools. Dhimmis.

Russ:"The planned bu... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Russ:
"The planned building is community center, not a mosque,..."
Actually, the Cordoba Initiative acknowledges it is a community center and mosque.

"And once the government limits the freedom of one religion then we all will suffer."
The government is not contesting the building of this edifice.

Just want to get the facts straight.

"I prefer to not comment... (Below threshold)
Russ:

"I prefer to not comment about things that were pulled out of someone else's ass."

Wow. Such language. Are there any moderators around who could clean that up?

Are the liberals on this si... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Are the liberals on this site really stupid or playing stupid. If in fact it is a community center, why build it in an area that no one lives. It is all office buildings for many blocks. Plus, you liberals would have to prove there is no worship center in the building and that would be called a? Anyone? That's right. A mosque.

This is an atrocity and a blatant act of "rubbing our nose" in the business of 9/11. How much of this shit do decent, tax paying citizens have to swallow until our government gets the balls to stand up for the majority? Patience is getting very thin. ww

"Wow. Such language. Are th... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

"Wow. Such language. Are there any moderators around who could clean that up?"

Russ, a lot of things here began to change for the better on September 11, 2001. Among those things was my willingness to suffer fools quietly. Deal with it.

Moderator right here, Russ.... (Below threshold)

Moderator right here, Russ.

Upset: Mind the fucking language, or I'll kick your ass.

J.

Since long before the Is... (Below threshold)
john:

Since long before the Islamist terrorist attack of Sept. 11, 2001, a storefront mosque has been sitting on West Broadway in TriBeCa, a dozen blocks from the World Trade Center. No one seems to have ever minded its being there.

Now, assuming he can raise the money and clear some remaining bureaucratic hurdles, the spiritual guide of that mosque intends to build a multistory Islamic community center, including a space for prayer, on Park Place, two blocks from what is routinely called ground zero.

Cries of protest have been loud and insistent from certain quarters. They include people who lost relatives on Sept. 11 and who describe the trade center site with words like "hallowed" and "sacred." To put an Islamic center so close, they say, would amount to a defilement.

At least now, in terms of geography, we know where outrage begins. That point is somewhere between 12 blocks and 2. The exact spot remains a mystery, though. Would it be O.K. if the Islamic center, called Cordoba House, were to be put four blocks from ground zero? Or is that still too close? How about eight blocks away?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/nyregion/28nyc.html

Be interesting to see what,... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Be interesting to see what, if any, construction company is going to do the work.

This is no community center... (Below threshold)
epador:

This is no community center. The folks at war with us want to put up a structure to glorify their victory. Of course they don't say that when looking at the non-believers, but when they talk to each other that IS what they say.

All this silly arguing and postulating is supporting their obfuscation.

Russ, take the fingers out of your ears and stop mumbling nah-nah-nah-nah.

Thanks for the clean up, mo... (Below threshold)
Russ:

Thanks for the clean up, mod.

"The government is not contesting the building of this edifice."

Only a governmental agency has the power to stop it. The project will go forward unless someone in a governmental agency puts the halt on it.

"Actually, the Cordoba Initiative acknowledges it is a community center and mosque."

I just looked it up. It's a 13 story building and the mosque is one of those 13 floors. That means about about 8% of the building is a mosque and 92% is a community center.

Sounds like a community center to me. But if the mosque wasn't part of the building would it make any difference? I doubt it. It's the religion involved, not what they intend to do inside this building, that has people pissed off.

So go ahead and call it a mosque but it isn't a mosque, it's a community center.

"Are the liberals on this site really stupid or playing stupid."

I consider myself a moderate, but I think calling any group "stupid" is a display of poor manners.

Maybe Jay Tea can check the... (Below threshold)

Maybe Jay Tea can check the IPs of "Russ" and "Jeff" since disinformation seems to be their M.O.

The Cordoba house will be a 13 story building TOPPED BY A MOSQUE. Regardless of the claimed activities of the rest of the building, by having the mosque on the top of 13 stories makes it "taller" than any other religious building in the area. This is symbolic for the rest of the Muslim world, that Islam triumphs over all. Check the rules in other muslim countries concerning non-muslim religions.

If a convent on the grounds of Auschwitz was a horrible idea, how is allowing a mosque within the shaddow of Ground Zero a good one?

J-Message read and... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

J-

Message read and understood, Sir.

So now I'm the subject of a... (Below threshold)
Russ:

So now I'm the subject of an IP witch hunt. That's pretty silly.

"If a convent on the grounds of Auschwitz was a horrible idea, how is allowing a mosque within the shaddow of Ground Zero a good one?"

This isn't Germany. This is the United States of America.

"This isn't Germany. This i... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"This isn't Germany. This is the United States of America."

And with that comment, you lose.

"This isn't Germany. This i... (Below threshold)
Sky Captain:

"This isn't Germany. This is the United States of America."

Last I checked, it wasn't a Muslim country. It can't be, since the Islamofasicts are at war with the US.

Yes, the US has some of the more tolerant people in the world (with the exception of liberals). However, this "community center" has the purpose of being a symbol of the Islamic "victory" over the US on 9/11. Thus, the mosque is included in its design.

Oh, and Russ - as pointed out previously in this thread, with build a "community center" where NO ONE LIVES?

oh, pooo, Russy-babe, "IP w... (Below threshold)

oh, pooo, Russy-babe, "IP witch hunt"??

You voluntarily posted here. It would be nice to see if you're really a "Russ" or more like someone with ties to "Cordoba" House.

See, I understand what "waqf" and "taqiyya" mean.

Where's that $100 million to build that symbol of Islamist victory over America coming from, "Russ"? Hmmm?

You score high points on ha... (Below threshold)
Larry Dickman:

You score high points on hate in your high school essay.

"Islam is, at its core, an aggressive religion. It actively promotes spreading its faith by force and conquest. And, historically, it makes a point of supplanting pre-existing faiths and symbology thereof."

Yeah, that's how the gnostics defined Christianity.

Have you ever been outside the rural counties of West Virginia?

"Yeah, that's how the... (Below threshold)
914:

"Yeah, that's how the gnostics defined Christianity."

This is called being clued in by the clueless.

Problem is, Dickman, Christ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Problem is, Dickman, Christianity learned better, and so far Islam hasn't. Pointing at what a religion WAS many centuries ago doesn't have anything to do with what it IS in contemporary times.

And there's an 'evangelical' strain to Islam that's perfectly comfortable killing off abberant strains of it's OWN co-religionists.

(Rather like the massacres of Baptists that regularly occur at the hands of Catholics, in between the depredations of both by Methodists and Jehovah's Witnesses... Or maybe not. /sarc )

It's not far from justifying your own massacres of other Muslims who do not believe as you do to killing anyone who does not believe as you do, and is seen as an enemy.

And yet you seem to find it so unlikely. Why is that?

Russ:"So go ahead an... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Russ:
"So go ahead and call it a mosque but it isn't a mosque, it's a community center."

I wrote that it is a community center and a mosque. That is the truth. That is what is proposed to be. You are also free to call it whatever you wish as well, or better yet, whatever you wish it to be.

I wish it to be what it is ... (Below threshold)
914:

I wish it to be what it is now. Nonexistent.


I wonder if the 'call to prayer' will be heard echoing down the streets down to ground zero? Now that would be disgusting.

Submission accomplished.

Russ, look at the first two... (Below threshold)

Russ, look at the first two comments on this posting. You're damned right I looked at the IPs of you and Jeff, because it was unclear as hell what was going on.

It's only the really, really stupid people who quote several paragraphs, and then add on a one-sentence agreement. I didn't think we had people that stupid, but I guess I was wrong.

I finally decided that Jeff was quoting you and agreeing with you, but didn't do anything to indicate that it was a quote. But yeah, I checked to make sure you weren't using the same IP. "Due diligence" and all that.

J.

....Islam, at its core, is ... (Below threshold)

....Islam, at its core, is an aggressive religion...

Close -- but no Christmas Box.

Islam, on its face, is a hostilely invading, colonizing, raping, sexually-mutilating and murderously-enslaving totalitarian ideology.

Be very afraid: "radical Islam" is The Beast and "moderate Islam" its Trojan Horse.

For, as that subsequently quite well-known Anglo-American, Winston Leonard Spencer Jerome-Churchill, long ago observed:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as Hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property (either as a child, a wife, or a concubine) must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science (the science against which it had vainly struggled) the civilization of modern Europe might fall, (Whoops! B A)as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

-- The River War, first edition, Vol. II - 1899 - by Winston Churchill pp 248-250

Blasphemy Day is hardly the... (Below threshold)
James H:

Blasphemy Day is hardly the most mature secular activity out there, but I would like some opinions regarding the Christian love expressed here:

I will never forget that night-scrawling the words of Richard Dawkins in front of the music building, quoting Deuteronomy in front of the campanile, and drawing stick figures of Muhammad on the way to the business building. The response was immediate. Curious onlookers approached, many of them engaging us in conversation. Shortly after came the defacing.

[...]

Next to Thomas Jefferson's "Question with boldness even the existence of a god" was the less elegant "Imagine my cock in your eye socket, fun times you cunts." At the end of the sidewalk, hunched down by another of our chalkings, was the author of that sentiment. We raced to him and snapped some pictures, inquiring as to what he was doing. "Don't worry," he protested, "we're fixing it." We explained that we were the ones who originally did the chalking. He was rendered motionless by the realization. Then he lunged at my camera, managing only to graze it before sprinting away.

Pardon the language, please, but I'm trying to make a point here. I hardly think that man represents all of Christianity. He is clearly an extremist, possibly with some violence issues on the side.

Which is my point, really. If you run around judging all groups -- like, say, Christians or Tea Party activits -- only by the actions of the extremists among them, then all groups will be found wanting.

Knock knock, Who'... (Below threshold)
Indie:

Knock knock,

Who's there?

freedom of religion........

The goal of EVERY muslim ... (Below threshold)
olsoljer:

The goal of EVERY muslim is to conquer the world and place it under sharia law. The ultimate goal is for all "infidels" to be DEAD!!
I guess you who scream about freedom of religion would also support those radical "religions" who espouse human sacrifice?

Look out James has found a ... (Below threshold)
John:

Look out James has found a crazy christian, can't for all the christians to start dancing in the streets over the great act of violence this myter has committed. See I think there's a bit of a difference between the way christians deal with their crazies and the way far too many muslims (please not I did NOT say ALL muslims) deal with theirs. But if you think it's the same then by golly it's the same.

"But yeah, I checked to ... (Below threshold)
Russ:

"But yeah, I checked to make sure you weren't using the same IP. "Due diligence" and all that."

Thanks for following up and publishing your findings. It was very "Breitbart" of Darleen to shoot first and then force me to prove she was wrong.

I would like to state that ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I would like to state that Islam is not a 100% pure theological faith. It maintains a political message for the followers.

Secondly, what would we think of opening a seminary across the street from a boys school.

How come we can make sure sex offenders are publicly listed so anyone can find them.

If Islam is a compassionate religion and one of peace, why do they insist of going forward with this project when so many object? We all know why, they want to rub our noses in it. Their faith and ideology succeeded in killing thousands of infidels and their brothers were martyred. So, they want to build a trophy by the site of the success. It is very obvious the muslims in NYC have no compassion for their neighbors.

Spin it any way you want liberals, this building is an act of agression.

If they building is approved, I think the unions and mob will make deliveries hard to make, schedules running consistantly late, vandelism on a huge scale, picketers denouncing the project, etc. This whole business sickens me. ww

Russ, quit your whining. Yo... (Below threshold)

Russ, quit your whining. You didn't "prove" anything -- I did all the leg work.

Jeff L did something that made you both look suspicious. That led to me doing my job and checking it out, and finding out it was fine. I wouldn't have even mentioned it if someone else hadn't picked up on the suspicious nature of the postings.

Oh, and you're wrong about the facts. It's a community center -- that contains a mosque, is a considerable distance from any residential neighborhoods, and is close enough to Ground Zero that debris from one of the airliners struck the building.

All of which, of course, is utterly coincidental and irrelevant, of course.

J.

If I were a religious man, ... (Below threshold)
BluesHarper:

If I were a religious man, wouldn't I want to treat other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves.

So out of respect I wouldn't build anything (mosque) in an area where it would offend someone. Right?




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