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We remember (UPDATED)

Emotion rules the day... and that's not always a good thing... but in this case, I might just make an exception.  When it gets down to it, the most impacting reasons we don't need a mosque at Ground Zero are heard through the voices of these people.  Take a listen.  Then tell me they're intolerant, or bigoted, or xenophobic.

UPDATE: If he saw this video, would he still say what he said today?

President Obama has made his first public comment on the mosque controversy since Saturday -- a very short comment.

It came when a television reporter in Ohio asked Obama if he had any regrets about weighing in.

"The answer is no regrets," Obama said.


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Comments (48)

"The answer is no regrets,"... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"The answer is no regrets," Obama said.

Then he'll understand this fall when a lot of New Yorkers fail to vote for Barry's fellow party members, and tell Barry and the DNC, "No regrets!"

Terrorism is only effective... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Terrorism is only effective is there are terrified victims.

Growing up and out of being terrified is an important part of the healing process for a nation.

Saying No - we will not deny our fellow Americans their Constitutional rights is a big step for us a nation.

It's a shame some can't grow up and out of being "victims"... Continuing to play the victim and acting victimized is extending the will of Osama bin Laden. You are playing into his hands.

Grow up. Seriously, grow up. Put on your big boy pants, wipe your runny nose, and grow up and be adult about this. Seeing Americans play right into terrorists hands and wring their hands with fright at every sight of a turban is utterly sickening.

Oh, and a suggestion for a ... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Oh, and a suggestion for a new title to this article...

"We're so frightened and brain-damaged we can't stop playing the victim and surrendering to terrorists"

Ok a little long perhaps, but more accurate than "We Remember"...

Wow Dane, at what point do ... (Below threshold)
Meiji_man:

Wow Dane, at what point do you think these people are PLAYING at being a victim?

Dane, Dane, Dane, you ignor... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

Dane, Dane, Dane, you ignorant slut. We're not frightened, we're not terrified. We remember, and when we do, we're pissed-off. We're not into appeasement. We believe that while the GZM's backers may, under our law, have the "right" to do the thing they have threatened to do, it is not the "right thing" to do. In fact, it is profoundly wrong, and they know it. According to ABC news, they won't rule out taking money from Iran and Saudi Arabia to fund the GZM. Sorry Dane, no trophy mosque at GZ. If the backers can't/won't understand that, then I hope that there are massive demonstrations and picket lines against those who would build the mosque, and if it is ever built, I pray that gay, transvestite prostitutes walk their pet pigs in front of the mosque 24/7.

You may lie about having re... (Below threshold)
914:

You may lie about having regrets Barry but we have no such compunction. We've regretted every single day you have been in office.

Terrorism is only effective... (Below threshold)
Maddox:

Terrorism is only effective is there are terrified victims.
Growing up and out of being terrified is an important part of the healing process for a nation.
Saying No - we will not allow you to desecrate the memory of Americans who died here is a big step for us a nation.

It's a shame some can't grow up and out of being victimized... Continuing to play the victim and acting victimized is extending the will of Osama bin Laden. You are playing into his hands when you bow to their demands rather than taking a stand. The goal is to destroy America not to have a dialogue to make peace, these are their words.
There, I fixed it for you Dane. I hope you can learn but I doubt that.

"Grow up. Seriously, grow u... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"Grow up. Seriously, grow up. Put on your big boy pants, wipe your runny nose, and grow up and be adult about this. Seeing Americans play right into terrorists hands and wring their hands with fright at every sight of a turban is utterly sickening."

Sounds like you're describing yourself Dane. Must be that 'projection' thing again.

Oh, and is the "Hate!" meme not working anymore? Or the RACIST! gig?

DANE 8:22Most of tho... (Below threshold)
Sir Toby Belch:

DANE 8:22
Most of those leaping to their deaths were
wearing adult clothing....had families that
mourn them. Wipe your own nose, you sniveling
punk. Your tears are for the thumping that
Obama and the Dems and their ideology may take
in November. I've been in the military,
and done my duty. Dane, we fought for relative
moralistic clones like you to crap on
Americans. You'll get no free toilet paper
from me or mine. Ask Obama....he's got a "stash", and by the way it's YOUR RETIREMENT!

Wow, Dane sure is a tough g... (Below threshold)
howcome:

Wow, Dane sure is a tough guy. I am glad we have people like him defending us instead of the U.S. Military. Him and his buddies on the left can surely talk a good game while they stands behind the military, police, fireman and all others who charge to danger instead of from danger. It sure is easy to be a tough guy when you have people defending your rights that people in your movement spit on, figuratively, any chance they get. Remember those little punks in school who used to stand behind their bigger friends and talk shit. That is what you remind me of.

Sir Toby, actually, moral r... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Sir Toby, actually, moral relativism implies changing your moral standards from case to case. Unless Dane has previously suggested that a particular group ought not be able to build a community centre in Manhattan then he's being consistent, and so your pejorative doesn't apply.

'Moral relativism', actually, is a good way of characterizing the reaction of those who want someone (the government? BIG GOVERNMENT?!) to stop Muslims from constructing a community centre (with a mosque in it) out of political correctness; and yet they complain every time someone suggests that people ought to be more temperate in their criticisms of, say, Muslims, for the sake of political correctness.

Slightly off-topic: does anyone remember when the United States invaded Iraq in part for the good of the (Muslim, Arabic) Iraqi people? I guess the message should have been "Saddam's dead--YOU'RE WELCOME--but stay the hell away from Ground Zero because to us you're all the same and we, as a nation, are collectively over-sensitive." Kudos to your president for being on the right side of an issue for a change.

Hyperbolist - I have yet to... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

Hyperbolist - I have yet to hear of anyone who wants the government, and certainly not "big government", to stop the building of the mosque. We would like those who would build the mosque to have to good sense to not build it two blocks from GZ. I don't think that's too much to ask, since those who brought us what is now known as GZ did so in the name of Allah. I mean, it's not like we're asking for something totally unreasonable, like building a church or synagogue somewhere in Saudi Arabia or something like that.

Personally, I'll believe th... (Below threshold)
Sky Captain:

Personally, I'll believe that Dane feels this way about Constitutional rights when he supports the Second Amendment the EXACT same way he touts the First.

And when he comes out in support of a Nativity scene on the White House lawn this Christmas.

Otherwise, Dane is just another Lee Wuss looking to cause trouble.

The president as usual is o... (Below threshold)
914:

The president as usual is on the wrong side of history. Thank god he had affirmative action to help him get rich and GD affirmative racial action because it is making US poorer for it.

Politically correct would be building it to moslem specifications Hyper. Since Barry has put on his lurch flip flops it is clear even he is acknowledging a muslim shrine at ground zero is taboo x 2

This mosque is in the same ... (Below threshold)

This mosque is in the same category as Dr Laura saying "nigger" repeatedly. Can both of these things be done legally? Is it the wisest way to build a bridge of understanding between two groups of people? Of course not. This mosque should not be built & it should be Muslims who should stop it, the same way local churches try to shut up the Westboro Baptist church & their crazy protests.

Hyperbolist 10:00Y... (Below threshold)
Sir Toby Belch:

Hyperbolist 10:00

You're right. I used a big term loosely that
allows you to ask for some of the toilet
that Dane wants. You two fight over it.

Oh, if that's your point, W... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Oh, if that's your point, Walter, then great--but I really doubt that these Muslims (or any Muslims) read this blog, watch Fox News, or care about what most people here think. Try writing them a letter or signing a petition or something, or bribing an NYC zoning official or building inspector.

And comparing the United States to Saudi Arabia is really, really dumb. Stop doing it. You're implying that the rules that govern the United States are the same as those in Saudi Arabia, and the reason why you're wrong is the same reason why the United States is morally superior to Saudi Arabia in terms of general principles of governance.

Sky Captain, the White House is government property. They will have a Christmas dinner but won't decorate the front lawn with tacky religious trappings. The President is Christian but gives no privilege to Christianity as far as decorating the property of the United States--which is absolutely correct on his part. Designating the White House as Christian for Christmas, or Muslim for Ramadan, or Hebrew for Rosh Hashanah, would be an affront to all other faiths on those days, not to mention to atheists who are no less American than religious people are.

914, I'm not sure I understand your "point" but I imagine it's something along these lines: Golly jee whiz, black people tick me off! faaaaaaart

You can call me a bigot, ra... (Below threshold)
recovered liberal democrat:

You can call me a bigot, racist, homo-phobe, right wing extremist, red neck, Islamo-phobe, A$$hole. I don't care. I am so happy Obamalala is helping the Conservative cause every time he opens his mouth. When I saw him make that speech at that dinner I jumped out of my chair. We are not only going to take back the House but, the Senate also. I don't care if he picks Billary for VP and dumps "plugs", which by the way Michelle Antoinette will not approve for a second, he is toast in 2012. There was a movie I saw once. It wasn't very good but, I loved the title,"SWEET NOVEMBER".

Yep Barry is just what Nove... (Below threshold)
914:

Yep Barry is just what November ordered. A real thrashing of Dumbocrats for hope and change.

For every "Dane" there are ... (Below threshold)
Sir Toby Belch:

For every "Dane" there are myriad "hyperbolists" who will fight to the
death for the rights of bathtub rings to
remain in place whether YOU want a clean
tub or not. They are graduates of the human-
ities programs of our higher education.
They know best how to govern. They know
best how tribal scuffles should be settled.
They had Obama and the Democrats running
THE BIG SHOW. Their hemorrhoids must be
on fire right about now.

Growing up and out... (Below threshold)
Brett:
Growing up and out of being terrified is an important part of the healing process for a nation.

Saying No - we will not deny our fellow Americans their Constitutional rights is a big step for us a nation.

It's a shame some can't grow up and out of being "victims"... Continuing to play the victim and acting victimized is extending the will of Osama bin Laden. You are playing into his hands.

Grow up. Seriously, grow up. Put on your big boy pants, wipe your runny nose, and grow up and be adult about this. Seeing Americans play right into terrorists hands and wring their hands with fright at every sight of a turban is utterly sickening.

Another sock puppet raises it's head.

Hey, twit, why do you think this is about FEAR? I *despise* terrorists and hope to kill every single one of them brutally, but I can't say I actively fear them. But to ignore the threat is utterly idiotic. That's what we did BEFORE 9/11 - they said they were at war with us, they tried to blow up the WTC, did blow up the Marine barracks. And we did *vritually nothing* to respond. Partly because Americans tend to believe the best of people, and partly because imbeciles such as yourself were so concerned with offending people that you forgot (and apparently still don't understand) that *freedom requires defense*. Sometimes aggressive defense. Sitting around petitioning King George didn't get the job done in the 1770's. So if you want to talk rights and drone on about freedom, you had God damn better be willing to pull a trigger. Pantywaist hand-wringing over "rights" ain't going to cut it.

And, for the umpteenth time, no one denies their right to put a Mosque anywhere they want. But putting it on the 9/11 site is nquestionably calculated to offend the vast majority of Americans and to celebrate their "victory". That's not the responsible exercise of their rights any more than is Holocaust denial, holding Nazi rallies, or keeping black people at the backs of busses (which I might note was PERFECTLY within the rights of those doing it at the time - thanks to God, LBJ, and the Republican party, no longer). If the government was trying to claim that it was illegal, then you might have a point and I would defend the fact that they have the *right* to do it. This isn't a debate over who has the "right" to do anything.

This Mosque situation is no different in principle from the KKK holding a rally. They have a clearly-defined right to do it. But the rest of us have a right to protest it, and try to prevent it from happening because it is a nauseating offense to all right-thinking people. The only difference is see is that liberal imbeciles would likely decry the KKK rally but seem to want to encourage the Mosque.


But to passively sit back while they abuse their *rights* and fail to live up with the concomitant *responsibility* to their fellow citizens is foolish and in this case suicidal. These people have demonstrated time and again that they have the intent and capability to kill innocent people at random. We would be foolish indeed not to take the necessary steps to prevent it. Those steps need to be effective and "common-sense".

An example - searching grandmas in wheelchairs at the airport is neither effective nor rational. we do it because imbeciles like you *scared* of offending Muslims. Hey, here's an idea - if innocent, peace-loving, and responsible Muslims don't want to be singled out, maybe they ought to take aggressive action to purge themselves of the bad apples. Instead of trying to put mosques and dance halls on the graves of their victims.

If Muslims want to "build bridges", they ought to start out by not intentionally antagonizing virtually everyone else in the country.

So, in short, people who want to "reconcile" are the cowards running in fear. You appear to be willing to sit around while people die for fear of offending someone. I can't imagine anything more chickenshit.

Hyperbolist-Good grief, cou... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

Hyperbolist-Good grief, could you be more obtuse? You made the point concerning our supposed reliance on "big government". My response was to your false assumption, not to those who would build the GZM, unless of course you and they are the same. And I'm not comparing the US to Saudi Arabia. Learn to read. I'm comparing the tolerance we [citizens, not government] are supposed to show to the tolerance of those who would spit in our face in our country, and imprison us in theirs.

So when someone "antagonize... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

So when someone "antagonizes" you you get all pissy and go tell the teacher? Jesus Brett, grow some stones. Moderate Muslims in NYC have as much in common with the KKK as you do. It's not a moderate Muslim's responsibility to purge Islam of shitheads anymore than it's a professional baseball player's responsibility to test other players for steroids, or for Catholic priests to spy on one another to make sure they aren't diddling kids. 1.2 billion Muslims, 19 hijackers: are you good with fractions?

I didn't realize that some people actually interpreted this as a threat to their personal safety. Man, those people are funny.

19 hijackers, 19 muslims. ... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

19 hijackers, 19 muslims. That's not a fraction.

Oh, so you were talking abo... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Oh, so you were talking about Saudi bigots, not the bigoted Saudi government. Fair enough, and better point. So, here's how a brave, principled, decent person reacts to bigotry: combat intolerance with tolerance. Turn the other cheek. Show the moderates in Saudi Arabia that you have their back in the event of a public uprising (however unlikely that may be). Do what Jesus would do.

How many more reasons do you need to be better than a Saudi bigot? It took me four seconds to think of four of them, give me a minute and I can come up with a few more if you need me to.

100% of the hijackers were ... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

100% of the hijackers were Muslim; ergo, every decent Muslim dude who wants to do anything Muslim in NYC is sticking a fork in your eye. Is that it?

"I didn't realize that s... (Below threshold)
914:

"I didn't realize that some people actually interpreted this as a threat to their personal safety. Man, those people are funny."


Its called seeing the writing on the wall. And no, its not funny.

"1.2 billion Muslims, 19 hijackers: are you good with fractions?"

Thats 19 too many.


I'm not going to respond to... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

I'm not going to respond to those who would have me live in subjugation to Sharia law by telling them what fine young men they are. Did you not learn anything from Neville Chamberlain? Or will you be murmuring "Peace in our time" when the GZM trophy mosque is built.

Right. Now they're closeted... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Right. Now they're closeted Nazis. Or stealth terrorists. They're going to build a gigantic building--and then fill it with explosive Qur'ans.

Stock up on diapers and sleep with one eye open forever because the Muslim community in the United States is growing and you're going to see a lot more swarthy guys with beards hanging out everywhere. They aren't any less American than you, and you aren't any more entitled to feelings of deep sadness and anger on 9/11 than they are. Ground Zero isn't yours, but a part of it is now the property of Muslims. Now that every Pam Geller-esque freak-show in the United States has their attention fixated on this project, do you really think they're going to use it to radicalize the population?

It's your problem--not theirs!!!--that you can't distinguish between Islam as commonly practiced, and radical jihadis.

No, actually only those who... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

No, actually only those who would build the GZM want to stick a fork in my eye. There are actually moderate muslims who agree with me that building the mosque two blocks from GZ is nothing if not provocative, and actually hurts the interests of "decent Muslim dudes". Why do you want to harm their interests?

Look at their religion. Li... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

Look at their religion. Living under Sharia law is their goal, their "religious" goal. Now, whether you want to give that ideology the name of "Nazi", or "Islam", or "Wizard of Ozism", the ultimate result is the same. It's their ideology. If you want to believe that they're all just "decent Muslim dudes", good luck.

So when someone "a... (Below threshold)
Brett:
So when someone "antagonizes" you you get all pissy and go tell the teacher? Jesus Brett, grow some stones. Moderate Muslims in NYC have as much in common with the KKK as you do.

Reading comprehension - clearly not your strong point.

Nearly all Americans would be out protesting or putting a stop to a KKK rally. Because their views are offensive and not in keeping with American values.

Moderate Muslims, by analogy, should be out protesting this mosque placement because it offends us, and should offend them just as much. A few brave souls in the Muslim community have stepped forwards to tell their cohorts to move it because it is an obviously intentional offense. And clearly symbolic of a "victory". But precious few. The majority stay silent, or support it.

Well, you live in a country... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Well, you live in a country that (sometimes) takes seriously the notion of separation of church and state. Tell me, is this how you see it?:

1) Step 1: build a community centre next to where those douche bags blew up their grandest symbol of commerce

2) Step 2: TAKE OVER THEIR ENTIRE CIVIILIZATION!1!1!!!!!

Even if they wanted Step 2, there would be a shit-ton of other intermediary steps, i.e. re-writing the constitution. How long until 5 out of 9 Supreme Court Justices are devout conservative Muslim? I'd give it at least ten years.

And all that stupidity aside, I don't know any Muslims who move to the Western world so that they can make their new (Western, progressive) home as shitty as the one they fled. People don't bring their families here from Pakistan because they just love Pakistan so much that they want our daughters to experience how great it is first-hand.

Turn off your TV set and go make some friends in the Muslim community. I'm amazed that conservatives in the United States haven't embraced Muslims at all: they like traditional gender roles; expect their children to respect their elders; pray a lot; work hard and are an incredibly successful demographic within your capitalist society (most of them coming from nothing, too); feel shame when unemployed...

If I were a surgeon in Islamabad and I moved to NYC so that my kids could flourish in a fair capitalist society, and some redneck motherfucker gave me stink-eye because some Saudi/Egyptian assholes blew up some office towers in NYC nine years ago, I'd be incredibly angry.

I know you don't care about people like that but I bet you have a hard time articulating why you don't.

Moderate Muslims would have... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

Moderate Muslims would have a problem with the KKK too, Brett. "Nearly all" Americans would include a lot of Muslims. "America" is not a religion and "moderate Muslim" is not a nationality. I'm not sure "reading comprehension" is the route you want to take here. Individual Catholics didn't apologize to any victims of the sex abuse scandal, did they? Nobody would have expected them to, anyway. Would anyone have been offended if the Knights of Columbus opened a [whatever they call their places of ceremonial assembly] next to a kindergarten? Absolutely not. That would be strange. Similarly, it's strange that so many are bothered by a group that is in no way affiliated with radical Islam wanting to open a decidedly non-radical community centre at Ground Zero. Everybody understands that a lot of people are bothered by this, but instead of asking moderate Muslims to assuage the fears of uninformed non-Muslims, why don't you explain to anyone who will listen why the people building the community centre in NYC have an entirely different interpretation of the Qur'an than Osama Bin Laden? That's what these Muslims are going to do once they open the goddamn community centre.

So, those who come here don... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

So, those who come here don't want to to make their new home as shitty as the one they fled? Are you serious? Do you read the newspapers? Well, I take that back since we're not allowed to talk about Islamo-Nazis.
What about those "decent Muslim dudes" who tried to blow up the Army base by using a fake pizza delivery truck? What about the Army shrink who shot his fellow servicemen? What about that "decent Muslim dude" who tried to blow a passenger plane out of air in Detroit? We're not talking about giving a Pakistani surgeon the "stink-eye" because of 9/11. We're talking about not wanting a mosque built at GZ because, in the name of Allah, GZ came into existence.

I'm not going to list examp... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

I'm not going to list examples of Christians doing terrible things because, let's face it, most acts of terrorism in recent history have been committed by Very Bad Guys who read the Qur'an. I'm not disputing that. However, I don't think that an "us vs. them" mentality is going to help anybody's cause except the jihadists'. It will increase the likelihood that Muslim youth will radicalize. I think that moderate Islam is inevitably going to play a prominent role in Western society, and the best way to prevent radical Islam from gaining a solid foothold in our countries is to embrace its moderate counterpart. Whether or not we act defensively towards Muslims in general, it will always be possible for someone to kill a few hundred people for whatever reason. So, combat extremism by encouraging the growth of moderate, Westernized, capitalist Islam--because doing otherwise gives the bad guys more propaganda.

As for your examples, I could give you a few hundred thousand examples in Ann Arbor of Muslims who didn't blow anything up but you're only interesting in outliers that support your generalization of a whole and there's no point in arguing with someone who generalizes from the narrowest set of particulars. The Muslims that I work with, went to school with, from which I have received world-class medical attention, traveled with, slept with (yikes! I hope Islam isn't contagious!), don't live in North America because they want to subvert our way of life. They live here because they like our way of life.

I bet this pissed you off, didn't it:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2010-08-17-michigan-football-ramadan_N.htm

OH SHIT GUYS!!!! THE BARBARIANS ARE AT THE GATES AND THEY DON'T LIKE BACON!!!!!!!!!

Since it's the American mus... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Since it's the American muslims who are being denied their right to practice their religion where and when they wish I'm sure the message "We Remember" comes through loud and clear.

It clearly says "We remember and you will be punished because of what Osama Bin Laden did".

Now you may ask yourself "what on earth did American muslims living in New York have to do with Osama bin Laden and 9/11?

And the answer is... nothing. New York Muslims Americans had nothing to do with 911.

Then you may ask yourself "well why punish New York muslims?"

And the answer is simple.

Simple-minded Americans, many of them Christians, hate you, New York Muslims, they simply hate you.

They hate you. They hate your culture, the color of your skin, the religious practices you've chosen.

But they don't know these people, how can they hate someone they don't even know?

And that's a very good question that I don't think any of us can answer.

So we're all knuckle draggi... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

So we're all knuckle dragging, gun and bible clinging, islamophobic bigots if we don't want a mosque at GZ? What about these folks? I'm proud to be on their side:
"American Muslims who support the proposed mosque and Islamic center near ground zero are facing skeptics within their own faith - those who argue that the project is insensitive to Sept. 11 victims and needlessly provocative at a time when Muslims are pressing for wider acceptance in the U.S.

"For most Americans, 9/11 remains as an open wound, and anything associated with Islam, even for Americans who want to understand Islam - to have an Islamic center with so much publicity is like rubbing salt in open wounds," said Akbar Ahmed, professor of Islamic studies at American University, a former Pakistani ambassador to Britain and author of "Journey Into America, The Challenge of Islam." He said the space should include a synagogue and a church so it will truly be interfaith."
Or this guy [Zuhdi Jasser, quoted in a post yesterday on this site, President and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy]:

"Mr. President this is not about religious freedom. It is about the importance of the World Trade Center site to the psyche of the American People. It is about a blatant attack on our sovereignty by people whose ideology ultimately demands the elimination of our way of life. While Imam Faisal Rauf may not share their violent tendencies he does seem to share a belief that Islamic structures are a political statement and even Ground Zero should be looked upon through the lens of political Islam and not a solely American one.

As a Muslim desperate to reform his faith, your remarks take us backwards from the day that my faith will come into modernity. I do not stand to eliminate Imam Rauf's religious freedom; I stand to make sure that my children's religious freedom will be determined by the liberty guaranteed in the American Constitution and not by clerics or leaders who are apologists for shar'iah law and will tell me what religious freedom is.

'Park 51', 'The Cordoba House' or whatever they are calling it today should not be built, not because it is not their right to do it - but because it is not right to do it." Mr. President, your involvement in this issue is divisive not uniting. Your follow-up stating that 'you will not speak to the wisdom of the construction of that mosque and center' indicates a passive-aggressive meddling on your part that only marginalizes those Muslim and non-Muslim voices against it while pretending to understand both sides of the debate."
Or, Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed, the director of Al Arabiya, also quoted yesterday at this site:

"I can't imagine that Muslims [actually] want a mosque at this particular location, because it will become an arena for the promoters of hatred, and a monument to those who committed the crime. Moreover, there are no practicing Muslims in the area who need a place to worship, because it is a commercial district. Is there anyone who is [really] eager [to build] this mosque?..."

Oh, and Hyper, especially n... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

Oh, and Hyper, especially note these quotes: "It is about a blatant attack on our sovereignty by people whose ideology ultimately demands the elimination of our way of life."
And this one: "I can't imagine that Muslims [actually] want a mosque at this particular location, because it will become an arena for the promoters of hatred, and a monument to those who committed the crime."

I still think the nub of th... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

I still think the nub of the debate revolves around location, location, location. At Ground Zero, no community center containing a mosque whatever its intent, rightly, would be offensive to so many Americans. Five blocks away, that is fine. Two to two and half blocks away, that is kind of a no-man`s land, but because it is in the unique cityscape of Manhattan with all of it's enormous canyons, and variety of buildings, Park51 is acceptable to me, with the condition that proper respect be given to victims of 9/11 within Park51.

And as the compromise of moving, the Developer Won't Budge On Mosque Location .

Since it's the American ... (Below threshold)
Joe:

Since it's the American muslims who are being denied their right to practice their religion where and when they wish I'm sure the message "We Remember" comes through loud and clear.

Dane, please provide evidence - a link, article, anything will do - where Muslims in this country have been denied their right to practice their religion.

You - like others - have missed the point. I have a 1st Amendment right to start spewing racial epithets when and where I want. Should I? Absolultely not. I just think it's sad that your and your ilk are so ready to take a giant sh#t on 9-11 families and those directly affected in the name of the "1st Amendment", which has nothing to do with this.

"Since it's the American mu... (Below threshold)
Hank:

"Since it's the American muslims who are being denied their right to practice their religion where and when they wish I'm sure the message "We Remember" comes through loud and clear."

As Joe requested, care to back this up?

Side note: dane sure sounds a lot like lee ward. ("Grow up. Seriously, grow up").

If religion is separate fro... (Below threshold)
olsoljer:

If religion is separate from government - is islam a religion if it requires adherence to and imposition of sharia law?
Please note the refusal to negotiate with the United States by Iran came from the ayatollah.

Dane and Hyper are excellen... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Dane and Hyper are excellent at trying to conflate an arguement.

There have been many building site plans changed because it was proven that the land was a sacred burial ground for a Native American tribe. We are a people, from government to land developer respected that and changed their plans. They didn't have to like it but they respected it.

One older person in that video said he last one half of his family in the towers collapse. That is quite a bit. No matter what Dane says so insensitively about sucking it up and quit playing victim (Dane you are clearly an asshole) that will effect you for life. Since most of the victims were never recovered and periodicly bones turn up, it is and should be viewed as a sacred burial ground.

Hyper and Dane, being the usual idiots on this forum try to make this about the muslims freedoms when in fact that is not the case at all. I do think that those two fellows do not have an idea about what sacred is, so it is through ignorance they comment. Hyper is canadian, and canadians have a long history of riding on the coat tails of our success but likes to poke the USA at any chance. But when crunch time comes, they come crying to the USA for help.

Since 1979, thousands upon thousands of innocent victims have been murdered at the hands of Islamofacists and it is that faiths duty and responsibility to stop it. This is why so many people are made at Cardinals and the Pope for not purging their priests to protect the innocent. Same here. So Hyper, you are of course wrong again. When the leaders of Islam start purging their ranks of their murderers, we have to view muslims as a risk to our safety. It is on them. Their faith caused this, their faith has to fix it.

If the Catholic Church plans to build a seminary in a boy school campus, the protests would be very loud and the church would change it's plans out of compassion. Islam, it seems, does not have compassion or empathy. ww

So you think it's alright t... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

So you think it's alright to build a Freedom Tower on top of the bones, Willie? That's somehow less crass?

Yeah yeah, Canada is a parasite on the United States, blah blah blah. You don't need our oil, timber, fresh water, Blackberries, etc. You're doing us a favour by letting us maintain our sovereignty. Thank you SO MUCH, Willie, for letting us exist.

"...we have to view Muslims as a risk to our safety." Let me finish that sentence for you: "...because I'm an ignorant, bigoted, gutless coward who is afraid of the monsters under my bed."

Again Hyper, you gloss over... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Again Hyper, you gloss over or purposely play ignorant. I actually have a few muslims friends and I recently hired a devout muslim for a position of bio medical engineer. You fall back on the lame name calling when someone disagrees with you or proves a point. Thus proving you lost the argument. A Freedom Tower would be a great, great headstone for the innocent people who lie there undiscovered. That is exactly what that area needs. A building to demonstrate America's continued strength and perserverance.

I have nothing against canada. I just think of it like my attic. Once in awhile I go "Gosh, I didn't know that was there". Except for musicians and comedians, we wouldn't even hear about canada. We all know president Obama but who is the prime minister of canada? No one know, or cares. It is just the way it is. Muslim extremists are afraid of us and hate us for what we are a represent. Freedom, warts and all. So, the threat is against US citizens so your opinion, though sometimes tolerable, isn't needed here.

I think Islam should should compassionately move the mosque. I submit if they do not, open it up to all faiths. Unfortunately, until Islamic leaders get a hold on their faith and purge their ranks of the terrorists that are bastardizing their faith, they will continue to be suspect. That is a reality. Nothing more. ww

They don't have to be "into... (Below threshold)

They don't have to be "intolerant, or bigoted, or xenophobic."

They're just wrong.

It's their right to be wrong.

And it's just as much the right of these American muslims to build where they want, as long as they're obeying the law.

Hyper August 18 2010:... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Hyper August 18 2010:

100% of the hijackers were Muslim; ergo, every decent Muslim dude who wants to do anything Muslim in NYC is sticking a fork in your eye. Is that it?

Hyper on June 23rd 2010:

A bartender in Hilton Head explained it to me: "normal people" (white people?) in South Carolina don't have a problem with black folk; they have a problem with niggers. So it's not racism. Stupid liberals!

Even his pet strawmen are douche-bags...




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