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The Oppressed Care To Dissent

During the whole Ground Zero Mosque mess, one sticking point has been the name of the new place. Originally, it was going to be named after the Great Mosque of Cordoba, but the backers dropped the name "Cordoba House" and went for the exceptionally creative "Park51" -- named in honor of its street address of 51 Park Place. The backers are still using the name "Cordoba Initiative," however.

According to them, this is to hearken back to the halcyon days when much of southern Europe was occupied and controlled by Muslims, and Cordoba was one of the most important cities in Al-Andalus. At that time, according to this story, the Jews and Christians lived happily under the rule of the Muslims, all of them singing Kumbayah (or whatever the Arabic equivalent would be).

But it seems that they weren't all shiny happy dhimmis living in Cordoba. They kept records, too, of their time as subjects of their Islamic masters -- and some of those records have survived to this day.

Now, I'm sure that the Christians of that era weren't the most tolerant of masters to their Jewish and Muslim subjects, but that doesn't mean that the Islamic rule was preferable. Especially since it was achieved and sustained by the sword.

That seems to be a common thread in Islamic relations to non-Islamic peoples: "Everything will be just fine -- as long as you let us run things and live by our rules."

That seems to be the way to get along with Muslims -- just submit to them. Let them have their way, respect their ways and beliefs. After all, "Islam" means "submission."

Just never -- for an instant -- think that your "respect" will ever be reciprocated. Concepts such as "respect" and "tolerance" and "understanding" are strictly one-way streets. They are things due to Islam, not things Islam owes anyone else.

Just ask the martyrs of Cordoba.


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Comments (24)

By the sword to get there,b... (Below threshold)
G.:

By the sword to get there,by the sword to get off.

24% of Americans believe Ba... (Below threshold)
Nine Fourteen:

24% of Americans believe Barry would fit right in at this community center.

Perhaps it should be named Hussein center as a real bridge building teachable moment.

What would you guys be gett... (Below threshold)

What would you guys be getting worked up about, if it wasn't this completely symbolic distraction? Just curious...

"But it seems that they ... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"But it seems that they weren't all shiny happy dhimmis living in Cordoba."

I've been arguing this point since 2002. People are told all the time that "Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in peace together for centuries" and they just take it at face value.

I've head this repeated to me many times over the years. When I explain at what cost this "peace" was achieved no one seems interested in continuing the discussion.

jim x is a fine example of such denial. Much better to ignore it and cast aspersions instead.

Yes, as Oyster says, please... (Below threshold)

Yes, as Oyster says, please ignore all logical, constitutional and moral disagreements and continue to pursue this community center construction with all the freaked-out fervor you can muster.

jimx,Kind of a jer... (Below threshold)
MichaelC:

jimx,

Kind of a jerk aren't you. You don't deal at all with anything that has been discussed at length but merely beat upon your talking points which have little to do with anything. Do you really take any pride in your contributions to this forum?

People like you you come on this site, post endless off kilter objections to just about anything that is up for discussion and then no doubt sit at their keyboards feeling smug and impressed with their masterly command of all subjects great and small.

Most people here see you for the fool you are. But I don't suppose you'll ever understand this. Have you no shame at all or even a shred of embarrassment for crapping in the public spaces as you do?

Just never -- for an ins... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

Just never -- for an instant -- think that your "respect" will ever be reciprocated. Concepts such as "respect" and "tolerance" and "understanding" are strictly one-way streets. They are things due to Islam, not things Islam owes anyone else.

Jay, are you basing this on pre-conceived notions or through actual interation with other Muslims?


Other muslims?... (Below threshold)
Nine Fourteen:

Other muslims?

MichaelC, I'm kind of a jer... (Below threshold)

MichaelC, I'm kind of a jerk? Interesting. Do I also start my comments with insults?

Yes, I do take pride in my contributions to this forum - because I am either proving you guys wrong with cited facts, or, as happens, I learn something new or somewhere I was wrong, in which case I try to acknowledge it.

And on this subject in particular, you guys are buying into this "Muslims are out to kill us and taunt us with their new Mosque" hook, line and sinker.

But here, I'll address the central point of this post - the name "Cordoba" has a history which isn't necessarily 100% awesome.

And?

Is there some place on Earth that was, at that time, guaranteed to be better?

It's a name, it's just another symbol, like the mosque itself as a symbol. And you guys are freaking out about all of it. So, if not freaking out about it makes me look a fool in some of your eyes, that's a sacrifice I'm happy to make for America.

jim xDont you find... (Below threshold)
Nine Fourteen:

jim x

Dont you find it the least bit peculiar that they want to erect this mosque so close to ground zero?

Or that the saudi/iranian funding connection is being covered up?

jim x:While it is ... (Below threshold)
epador:

jim x:

While it is true that symbols only have power that we give them, the use of symbols is a basic human characteristic that separates us from the animal world. So denying their power is in essence denying your own humanity.

Flags, written documents, buildings, these all are symbols that have a power to project ideas and mold action. While you annoyingly and rudely distort many of the reactions you see here as "freaking out" in an attempt to minimize them without providing a salient argument, your acknowledged disregard for these symbols seems more to me akin to a disregard for flashing lights at a railway crossing.

Disregard the symbols at your peril and the peril of others.

I missed the "cited facts" ... (Below threshold)

I missed the "cited facts" from Jimx. Where did they go? All I see are rants and snark. Hmmm ...

The significance of Cordoba... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

The significance of Cordoba to the mussel-men (as Adams and Jefferson both referred to them, even in communications to them, as was the custom of the time to call the pagan barbarians - quotes from either using terms like "muslim" or "islam" have been altered) is it symbolizes victory over the infidel Christians and Jews there, and subjugating them to islamic domination.

This helps clarify what it means to them. We already know what it means to us.

When the Carmelite nuns sought to erect a convent near Auschwitz, dedicated to the lost souls, they expected favor from Pope John Paul II, known to be fond of their order. But he directed them to find another location, that no one be able to take offense even if none were intended.

Number 7, in case you didn'... (Below threshold)
chai:

Number 7, in case you didn't know it, Mohamed's deathbed command to his followers was to kill all nonbelievers. So you don't have to interact with a Muslim to know that he/she wishes you dead if you are not a Muslim. I am not a Muslim. My children are not Muslim. So should we all die because I refuse to accept this religion???? I don't need to interact. I just need to read history to know.

By the way, Number 7: just ... (Below threshold)
chai:

By the way, Number 7: just read this on another blog. Nice, tolerant people:
"Prosecutors alleged that Paul Rockwood, also known as "Bilal," converted to Islam about a decade ago and began studying the teachings of American-born cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who has professed hatred for the United States and supports acts of terrorism. The couple then moved to King Salmon, where he worked for the National Weather Service.

"While in Alaska, Rockwood researched and discussed methods of execution often at great length and in significant detail, components for mail bombs were purchased, the targets had been selected and a loose time line was established," assistant U.S. attorneys Steven Skrocki and Bryan Schroder wrote in their sentencing memo.

Prosecutors said he gave the list of targets to his wife in April, and she carried it on a trip to Anchorage, where the FBI obtained it."

Thank you, Mr T - well said... (Below threshold)

Thank you, Mr T - well said.

"Yes, as Oyster says, pl... (Below threshold)
Oyster:

"Yes, as Oyster says, please ignore all logical, constitutional and moral disagreements and continue to pursue this community center construction with all the freaked-out fervor you can muster."

That's odd. I've searched and searched and can't find anywhere that I said that.

As a matter of fact, I'm having trouble finding where anyone here has said it's unconstitutional for them to build there. I've personally made no attempt to get into any discussion of moral or logical disagreements here with you either. So stuff it.

That's odd. I've searche... (Below threshold)

That's odd. I've searched and searched and can't find anywhere that I said that.

Of course you haven't. You want to think your objections are logical, and so you refuse to see their illogic. Specifically, how the objections are based on symbols which have only emotional connections to the issue, and not logical ones.

So you automatically don't see how nitpicking the meaning of the word "Cordoba" doesn't *logically* connect to the debate over the community center - only emotionally.

But it no more connects than calling a football team "The Lions" actually means they're furry yellow felines who eat raw gazelles.

Dont you find it the lea... (Below threshold)

Dont you find it the least bit peculiar that they want to erect this mosque so close to ground zero?

Or that the saudi/iranian funding connection is being covered up?

No, I don't. I've looked into it, at least by reading. And there are TWO other Islamic religious centers in the same area, both of which are currently overflowing. They want to build this on an available site, a close distance to both.

As for the funding, both Iranians and Saudis are muslims. Iran has no connection to 9/11 - if anyone does, it's Saudia Araba - who are our **allies**.

So, yes, honestly and logically, this is 100% a big distraction. This is literally the Freedom Fries of 2010.

Lissakay, feel free to revi... (Below threshold)

Lissakay, feel free to review my other comments on other articles, and see comment after comment with links and citations. None have been necessary here yet - but any time you guys want me to back up something with facts, you should know that I will back it up or I will actually retract it.

While it is true that sy... (Below threshold)

While it is true that symbols only have power that we give them, the use of symbols is a basic human characteristic that separates us from the animal world. So denying their power is in essence denying your own humanity.

Sure. We also do many things with symbols - put them in movies (AKA Star Wars), put them in novels (Harry Potter), make sex symbols out of idiots (Lindsay Lohan, the cast of Jersey Shore).

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to judge other people based on symbols that have only emotional connections to reality, and lack logical ones.

And you guys are judging not only the building of this center, but basically an entire religion and everyone belonging to it, based on these two symbols: a) 9/11 and b) Muslims Are Bad.

I want you to really understand how much trouble this has already caused:

Bush was able to convince the US to invade a country ***we didn't need to invade**, Iraq, causing the deaths of over 3000 US soldiers and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis - AND thus splitting our concentration, allowing the actual 9/11 murderers and conspirators get away- AND making it possible that we may lose Afghanistan to the Taliban AGAIN. Which may mean we invaded Afghanistan and lost lives there for **nothing**.

That's what concentrating on emotional symbols does. It robs people of their MINDS, and causes us to do things which aren't based on logic. And we need to use our logical minds, more than ever, if we are going to survive as a nation, as a civilization and even as a species.

Right now, thanks to this Manhattan Mosque Mania, Al Qaeda is achieving exactly what they want: to stir up trouble and division between moderating influences and The West.

Just as when Iraq was invaded, this effort is actually helping and not hurting our enemies. It is dividing us from our own countrymen - Muslim Americans. Some of whom died in 9/11, trying to save other Americans' lives.

That's my salient argument, that you somehow missed. Sorry if you don't like to hear it straight. but that's the way it is.

Oyster, on looking over the... (Below threshold)

Oyster, on looking over the comments, I have not found any comments saying that the Muslims building of this mosque either a) is unconstitutional or b) should be. So, I retract that part of my statement in # 5.

Amazing. I didn't think jim... (Below threshold)

Amazing. I didn't think jim x had the honesty and integrity to admit he was beating the crap out of that poor straw man, but he did. I'm impressed.

jim x, you've just scored yourself a Brownie point. An "indulgence," if you like.

J.

Well thank you for the back... (Below threshold)

Well thank you for the backwards compliment Jay Tea. I've done it before, I strive to be consistent.




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