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The Seven Percent Problem

Over at Outside The Beltway (a web site I really need to write about soon, and not in a tremendously favorable way), James Joyner expounds on the Ground Zero mosque and the larger issue of radicals within Islam. And, I have to say, he makes a fundamental error in logic.

According to Joyner, the actual number of "radical" Muslims is only about seven percent. I don't know if I buy that number, but I'm willing to accept it for the sake of argument. And, he says, the other 93% are being unfairly tarred and blamed for the misdeeds of that tiny minority. We shouldn't judge the entire group for the actions of, essentially, one in fourteen.

The flaw in Joyner's argument is one of the few things I actually learned about sociology and human nature and group dynamics. And that rule is, in any group that is not explicitly democratic, the most passionate members will wield influence far out of proportion to their numbers.

Think about any group you've ever been a member of. Haven't there always been a few people who drive the action, who put themselves out front, who push and pull the whole group in a direction that the individuals might not fully embrace?

Now extrapolate that, and ratchet up the passion a zillion times. After all, these "fringers" are doing God's work, striving to win their way into Heaven and punish those who are defying God's will. They're not just willing to kill and die to achieve their goals -- they're eager to.

And it's a tossup who's worst in their eyes -- the West, or the moderates within Islam. The infidels and unbelievers or the apostates and heretics. Personally, I think they see the "traitors to Islam" as worse than the "enemies of Islam," but it's a tough call.

How do they keep the would-be traitors in line? Simple. Terror.

Those who would challenge the radicals within Islam are targeted and isolated, often even killed, along with their families and associates. It's a simple matter of hammering down the nails that stick up. Squeaky wheels get greased.

So the nails learn to not stick up, and the wheels stop squeaking on their own.

Yes, the non-radical Muslims do vastly outnumber the radicals in their midst. But that isn't really relevant, because the non-radicals have learned -- the hard way, over decades and centuries -- that the best way for them to survive is to go along to get along. To them, the radicals in their midst are a flamethrower with no off switch. The only thing they can do is to try to aim it away from themselves.

Perhaps there's a way to cut off the fuel to the flamethrower. Perhaps we can find a way to excise the incredibly malignant tumor of radicalism from Islam, or -- better yet -- the Muslims themselves can bring about the change within their own ranks.

In the meantime, though, we have to deal with the reality of the situation. Like it or not, fair or not, the radicals are the "face" of Islam in the world today.

I understand and sympathize with the plight of the moderate Muslims. I agree that needs to be a "Reformation" of Islam, a maturing and mellowing of the faith like Judaism and Christianity underwent. And I hope that it comes soon.

In the meantime, though, I have to reject the calls for "patience" in the struggle. Because that "patience" is measured in human lives. Innocent human lives.


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Comments (63)

How does one deal with a "r... (Below threshold)
Joe Miller:

How does one deal with a "religion" that says it's okay to lie to nonbelievers?

Good question, Joe. I can ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Good question, Joe. I can think of a couple of ways, but it'd give the 'tolerate anything from anyone except the right' crowd nightmares, and I don't like 'em myself.

The thing is, our country was founded on tolerance of opinions and religions. That tolerance was fine - because the folks being tolerated realized it was a two-way street. If they wanted their ideas and religion to be tolerated, they had to tolerate (not approve, not sign onto, not adopt) the same from others.

Islam is spectacularly, explicitly intolerant of ideas it finds objectionable, and of other religions.

Imagine, if you will, a Muslim cleric dropped into the middle of Salt Lake City with a stack of Korans to give away. He likely would face no threats from the Mormons and other Christians and Jews in the area, the agnostics would look at him with curiosity, and the atheists would immediately hate him. Some folks would take the Koran to be polite, others out of curiousity. (Took a copy of the Koran and a copy of Moby Dick on a backpacking trip once. Fell in a stream, got both books wet - the Koran merged into a solid block of wood pulp, while Moby Dick could be read carefully, even with wet pages. Go figure.)

Now, drop a Methodist minister into Mecca with a stack of Bibles. If he were exceedingly lucky he'd just get deported after being beaten by the Morality Police. If not - he'd be killed, or jailed for a long time...

Tolerance and respect need to be a two-way street. But when you get someone or a group that depends on that tolerance to 'take over' then things get very interesting indeed.

"In for a penny, in for a p... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

"In for a penny, in for a pound"
Until they excise the 14% from their midst I will continue to treat them as I do any other scourge, with extreme prejudice.

It boils down to a simple matter of survival, they want me dead because of my non-belief, I want them dead because they are terrorists, all of them.

Their silence makes them all complicit in the actions of a few.

7% What questions?<a... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

7% What questions?
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/196545.php
Read that survey and know what we are really up against.

here is some hope in 207 56% of Indonesian had positive to mix feelings for Bin Laden. In 2009 it down t just 35% That the most populous Muslim country.

Re 'how many people does it... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Re 'how many people does it take to radicalize a country or religion'... You don't need a percentage of the population, all you need is one charismatic that's got some support..

The Ayatollah Khomeini did a pretty good job of leading Iran into a messy period. Marx wasn't terribly charismatic, I understand, but there were enough people who latched onto his ideas and put them in practice that it didn't matter. And we won't talk about He who would Godwin the thread...

As you point out, all that's needed is a small percentage of ruthless believers - and the society will change.

I fear you tread on an acce... (Below threshold)
epador:

I fear you tread on an acceptance of Islam path that is the first step down the trail of dhimmitude.

Bad idea.

Joyner is a putz and has be... (Below threshold)
gary gulrud:

Joyner is a putz and has been for many years. So we need 'moderates' in the "Big Tent", that does not mean giving them the attendance log, the purse, the keys to the gate, etc.

If they want to vote Democratic, form their own party, move to Canada I say call their bluff.

The "face" of islam must be... (Below threshold)
SmartyMarty:

The "face" of islam must be killed before it kills (physically, economically, ideologically...) anyone in its path to world domination. Too extreme? We are at war, real war. History demonstrates what will come to pass if appropriate and forceful action is not taken. After enough jihadists are exterminated - which may involve innocents, on both sides, since the enemy uses their own for shields - the so-called moderates will more expeditiously strive to bring their religion to the 21st century. We have not the leaders who will confront the obvious and call this nation to action in a Machiavellian fashion; self-interest and fear have blinded them to squarely addressing the problems threatening, not just our Country, but the entire western civilization. The history of Israel and the middle-east is sufficient example. Failure to act, while unthinkable, is seeming to be the course we are taking. I despair.

Couple of thought...<... (Below threshold)
Hank:

Couple of thought...

Reading the excellent comments by JLawson, especially this:
"Tolerance and respect need to be a two-way street. But when you get someone or a group that depends on that tolerance to 'take over' then things get very interesting indeed."

I wondered if he was referring to muslims or liberals.

As to: "he [Joyner] says, the other 93% are being unfairly tarred and blamed for the misdeeds of that tiny minority."

This time I wondered, muslims or the Tea Party.

from NY1:A city ca... (Below threshold)
Adrian Browne:

from NY1:

A city cab driver is in the hospital after being stabbed by a passenger who allegedly asked if he was Muslim, police tell NY1.
Investigators with the New York City Police Department say it all began Monday night when a 21-year-old man hailed a cab at 24th Street and Second Avenue in Manhattan.

Police say the passenger asked the driver, "Are you Muslim?" When the driver said yes the passenger pulled a knife and slashed him in the throat, arm and lip.

The 43-year-old driver was able to lock the passenger in the back of the cab and call 911.

Both the driver and the passenger were taken to Bellevue Hospital.

As of late Tuesday, no charges had been filed.

After posting my comment (#... (Below threshold)
SmartyMarty:

After posting my comment (#8), I scrolled down to discover the link supplied by Wizbang for Phyllis Chesler's "Now, we are really all Israelis". Wow, what an article, q.v.

Nice fear mongering, Mr. Te... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Nice fear mongering, Mr. Tea.

I'm sure you won't deny that here in the United States there are more radical Christians than there are radical Muslims.

Or is that reality just too big for you to wrap your head around?

Jay highlights an excellent... (Below threshold)

Jay highlights an excellent point about group dynamics: an enraged bus driver endangers all.

This group dynamic is compounded by simple mathematics (if one accepts Joyner's 7 percent estimate): seven percent of one billion Muslims is 70,000,000.

That's A LOT of enraged bus drivers - on a scale of global conflagration.

Yeah, Dane - and honor kill... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Yeah, Dane - and honor killings by them are at an all-time high. Not to mention the stonings of women who dare wear bikinis at the beach.

(Well, let's be honest - you'll ALWAYS find women at the beach who shouldn't be allowed to wear bikinis. Or spandex for that matter. (shudder))

Oh, wait - it's MUSLIMS that are doing the honor killings. My bad... that's simply a cultural trait that shouldn't be condemned!

The big difference between radical Christians, like the occasional abortion clinic bomber - and radical Muslims is that while the nominal Christians are condemned and prosecuted, the radical Muslim is seen as a heroic martyr. And you know, I can't remember the last time a Christian strapped a bomb to himself, went into a bunch of kids and blew them up.

Funny, that - maybe radical Christians actually aren't much of a threat? Maybe we need to worry more about the folks who have a propensity to hack off heads and blow themselves up in marketplaces, or who kill their children in order to maintain family honor?

(I'm thinking that multi-culturalism isn't a good thing. We're a country with 300 million people, not twenty countries with 10-15 million each. We NEED an overall national culture, a synthesis of all the cultures for a strong nation. The 'identity-based' cultural separatism that's 'multiculturalism' doesn't allow for a cohesive whole - but instead keeps us fractured and at each others' metaphorical throats.)

Of course Dane is correct, ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Of course Dane is correct, we hear on the news all the time about how many innocent people were killed by the radical Christians. Dane, you are the most stupid commenter I've seen on Wizbang and I have been here for many years.

If we apply the logic of the left they have towards radical's in Islam,that only 7% of muslims are radicalized. Then the left is really going to support the Catholic Church because less then 7% of the priests have been involved in pediphilia. Of course the left would support the USSR when it was around because only 10% of the citizens were members of the party.

How about we focus exclusively on the amount of death, damage and fear that 7% brings to the worlds table. How many thousands have to die before the view of stupid people like Dane realize the terrorists don't hate republicans but all americans? JT is spot on, the faith itself has to clean it's own house out as Martin Luther did and the reformists movement of the jews did. All we can do is protect ourselves and view muslims and potential murderers until they themselves fix the problem. They brought the suspicion on themselves they have to remove it. They are the intolerant ones. They are the ones that demonstrate no compassion. (ground zero mosque) ww

JLawson mostly beat me to i... (Below threshold)

JLawson mostly beat me to it, but I'll answer for myself, too.

I'm sure you won't deny that here in the United States there are more radical Christians than there are radical Muslims.

Or is that reality just too big for you to wrap your head around?

Not at all, Dane. I'll yield that point cheerfully.

And then point out that radical Muslims are a LOT more radical and a LOT more dangerous than radical Christians.

Add up all the radical Christians who've committed acts of domestic terrorism in the last 20 years, Dane. I bet you won't get to 19.

Here, I'll give you a head start. Eric Rudolph. Scott Roeder. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill. Michael Griffin. James Kopp. John Salvi. Shelley Shannon.

There's seven to get you going, Dane. Feel free to list another dozen.

And no fair listing Timothy McVeigh. He was pretty much an atheist.

J.

There are a couple of issue... (Below threshold)
OldflyerG8r:

There are a couple of issues here.

It is claimed that there are over a billion Muslims; so even 7% is a very large number.

The other issue is the question of what the 93% are doing about those (few?) who murder in the name of their religion? I never hear of an Islamofascist being "excommunicated" for acts of terror. I hear of folks being stoned for sexual misdeeds, but none for murder of fellow Muslims. You seldom hear of mass demonstrations for peace and tolerance between Islam and other religions, or atheists. In fact tolerance is a decidedly one-way street. There are precious few moderate Islamic leaders speaking out against the terrorist elements; even if they wish to, they are apparently afraid.

I am admittedly Islamophobic to the extent that I look upon them with skepticism. I think I am justified.

Hank -"I wonder... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Hank -

"I wondered if he was referring to muslims or liberals."

I think a lot of liberals, as well as a lot of Muslims, are live and let live sorts. (I worked for a Muslim-owned company, they'd fled Iran when the Shah was deposed. They could see the Farsi on the wall, and beat feet fast.)

I have no problems at all coexisting with pretty much anyone of any belief - as long as you respect MY right to NOT be forced to approve of or condone or believe what YOU think I ought to.

And I've noticed that it's mostly conservatives who are willing to leave you alone - while it's mostly liberals who insist on 'helping' with massively expensive programs which rarely have the effect they were hoping for.

But maybe I just don't associate with the proper radical conservatives...

# 1, are you talking about ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

# 1, are you talking about Progressives (ie Dane) or Islam?

"Personally, I think the... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"Personally, I think they see the "traitors to Islam" as worse than the "enemies of Islam," but it's a tough call."

Not really. If you take a look at islam what you quickly realize is that differences between factions rapidly evaporate in the face of an outside enemy. Differing sides will unify to fight off the infidel. Given that fact it is not surprising that so-called moderates fall in with the radicals.

After all, it's far better to let the radicals go on fighting and killing the infidels, because if they don't have the infidels to focus on they will then have time to focus on those within the religion.

Moderates give tacit support to the infidels because 1) they will side with their co-religionists before anyone else and 2) if they don't the violence of the radicals will be turned upon them.

So the U.S. has zero... (Below threshold)
hyperbolist:

So the U.S. has zero allies in the Middle East other than Israel? Is that actually what you're saying, jim m?

Stupid, shitty people like you make it easier for radical imams to grow their businesses, so to speak. You're part of the problem.

Reliable, consistent allies... (Below threshold)

Reliable, consistent allies, hyper? Kindly name a couple.

Israel's been the only one over the years.

J.

Islam is not just a religio... (Below threshold)
FrenchKiss:

Islam is not just a religion. Its a blueprint for society, laws are applied to everyone (even infidels) under Sharia. We, the United States of America, can not, should not, will not allow the slow erosion of our laws and culture, to accomodate the cancer that is Islam. We must fight it wherever it tries to take hold in inappropiate locales. Free speech is for everyone. Freedom of religion is for everyone. But no group has a right to trample on sacred American institutions, icons, and values.

Adrian Browne & Dave... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Adrian Browne & Dave
The issue with Radical Islam in the US is that it is awash in blood.

Muslims number somewhere between 3.3 and 7.0 million in the US today, but Daniel Pipes believes that 7 million is a high number. J. Grant Swank writes "In America alone, there are 5,000 so-called 'honor killing' deaths every year. Five thousand!"
hcddbz, the only way I coul... (Below threshold)

hcddbz, the only way I could buy that 5,000 number was if the authors included abortions. Otherwise... it simply doesn't pass the smell test.

J.

Perhaps there's a ... (Below threshold)
Perhaps there's a way to cut off the fuel to the flamethrower. Perhaps we can find a way to excise the incredibly malignant tumor of radicalism from Islam, or -- better yet -- the Muslims themselves can bring about the change within their own ranks.

Yes! Great idea. What if there were a way to let moderate Muslims know that we really don't have a problem with them - it's just the extremists who are the malignant tumor.

For one thing, what if we didn't freak out about Muslims build churches where they like to, as long as they obey local zoning laws?

And what if we didn't construct massive conspiracy theories based on six degrees of guilt-by-association, but instead treated Muslims who are American citizens with a presumption of innocence - at least until actual evidence of wrongful intent surfaced?

That might be a good way to drive a wedge between extremists and moderates, wouldn't you think?

ARE YOU A MUSLIM? <bl... (Below threshold)
Dane:

ARE YOU A MUSLIM?

A city cab driver is in the hospital after being stabbed by a passenger who allegedly asked if he was Muslim, police tell NY1.

Investigators with the New York City Police Department say it all began Monday night when a 21-year-old man hailed a cab at 24th Street and Second Avenue in Manhattan.

Police say the passenger asked the driver, "Are you Muslim?" When the driver said yes the passenger pulled a knife and slashed him in the throat, arm and lip.

The 43-year-old driver was able to lock the passenger in the back of the cab and call 911.

Love those Christian values - and good job fanning the flames of hate, Wizbang.

manhattan.ny1.com/content/top_stories/124338/police--cab-driver-stabbed-by-passenger-who-asked--are-you-muslim--

Dane, you give the phrase "... (Below threshold)

Dane, you give the phrase "one trick pony" a whole new spin. While you denounce "stereotyping" and "scapegoating," you repeatedly use single, isolated incidents to indict those whom you don't like.

One right-wing blogger is caught taking payola. Suddenly, that means that "half" of us are on the take.

One nutjob makes one attack in NYC (a city we all know is renowned for its peaceful, sane, tolerant, loving citizenry) and that's a Holocaust that's our fault.

Christ, does that one brain cell of yours EVER get lonely?

J.

J. Grant Swank wri... (Below threshold)
J. Grant Swank writes "In America alone, there are 5,000 so-called 'honor killing' deaths every year. Five thousand!"

Then J. Grant Swank is a freaking idiotic lunatic. There are only 17,000 murders/year in the US - **total**. At the high mark of 7,000,000 - 1/50th of the population is responsible for 30% of the murders??

What Swank is probably mangling is the study fisked here - with a result 5000 murders worldwide. And even that study is counting women murdered by family members - horrible, but counting many more deaths than only honor killings.

http://www.examiner.com/muslim-in-san-francisco/honor-killings-lies-damn-lies-and-statistics

Swank should write fiction instead. He could probably have gotten a gig on "24".

It pains me to agree with j... (Below threshold)

It pains me to agree with jim x, but in this case I spoke first, so he's agreeing with me. That "5,000 honor killings in the US" figure is simply not believable. Not in the least. And jim x's explanation makes more sense than mine.

Ouch...

J.

You may agree with Jim X ab... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

You may agree with Jim X about the numbers JT, but the line Jim X threw about us and our whacko conspiricies should be called out. It was the left who said GW Bush personally helped the Bin Laden family high tail out of the country. It was the left that stated GW Bush and Cheney allowed 9/11 to happen. The conspiricy about the oil pipe line that went through Afghan. The list goes on of the number of conspiricy theories Jim X. and his buddies put out there and swore by and all of them motivated by hate.

As for the mosque in NYC, I say if they build it there, we will forever see a symbol of Islam's total lack of compassion for their community. So, let them have it. They seem to not care about the damage their faith did.

As for Dane, how about we just not give him the attention he craves. He reminds me of Lying Lee. (Damn, I owe $5 to a charity) ww

Just as I thought. You can'... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Just as I thought. You can't wrap your mind around facts and the truth, Mr Tea.

I didn't say half the right wing bloggers are on the take. That would be a GOP operative who said that.

It's just amazing that right wing bloggers hide the facts like these from their readers.

And today answering yes to the question "Are you a Muslim" gets a knife stuck in your throat.

But nothing to see here folks, move along...

Really, you should be ashamed.

How many Christians got their throats slashed because of their religion this week?

This month?

This year?

This blood is on your hands, Wizbang bloggers, not mine.

It was the left wh... (Below threshold)
It was the left who said GW Bush personally helped the Bin Laden family high tail out of the country. It was the left that stated GW Bush and Cheney allowed 9/11 to happen. The conspiricy about the oil pipe line that went through Afghan. The list goes on of the number of conspiricy theories Jim X. and his buddies put out there and swore by and all of them motivated by hate.

So ww, I'm not sure I get your point here. You're saying that because some on the Left said ridiculous things, the Right should also?

I didn't say half the ri... (Below threshold)

I didn't say half the right wing bloggers are on the take. That would be a GOP operative who said that.

No, some writer said an anonymous "GOP operative" said that. And you keep parroting it like it's gospel. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't keep repeating it.

And today answering yes to the question "Are you a Muslim" gets a knife stuck in your throat.

No, not quite. Almost 10 years of warning about the "backlash" against Muslims after 9/11, one Muslim is asked that by one nutjob, and the nutjob does something crazy. Again, you're basing your entire argument on a single, highly-questionable data point.

Dane, why don't you just throw the grand hissy fit you're working yourself up to and stomp off in impotent yet amusing fury? You're running out of entertainment value fast.

J.

So you can't think of a sin... (Below threshold)
Dane:

So you can't think of a single instance where a New Yorker had his or her throat slashed just because of their chosen religion?

No, neither can I.

Hate crimes like this are fanned by the fear mongers like this blog and Fox News.

Shame. The blood is on your hands so of course you duck responsibility.

Shame.

Sorry that the truth doesn't provide the "entertainment value" you are seeking.

Wow, that's pretty pathetic. I guess the good news is that you'll denounce the actions of this murderous thug in an upcoming blog post.

Naw... Christians slashing the throats of American Muslims isn't "entertaining" enough for Wizbang.

Dane--You ought to... (Below threshold)
Joe Miller:

Dane--

You ought to be less eager to jump on a recent story to back up your opinions until more is known about it. I'm just sayin'...

OK, I'm calling the SPCA. D... (Below threshold)

OK, I'm calling the SPCA. Dane's beating that dead horse something fierce.

So, if I'm responsible for this one nutjob, can I blame all Muslims for 9/11 and all the other atrocities committed in the name of Allah? Please?

J.

the 5K number is for Women ... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

the 5K number is for Women killed by Islam worldwide.
The part I wanted to have was the rise of Women and Children Killed in IUSA for so called honor killing which is on the rise.

Dane,

We do not know the religion of the person who attacked the Muslim. He could be Christian, he could be an atheist but I do not think you find that was an edict issues that said get Drunk and kill any Muslims where ever you may find them.

Fro those keeping score:</p... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Fro those keeping score:

Knife-wielding New York Muslims attacking Christians because of their religion - 0

Knife-wielding New York Christians attacking Muslims because of their religion - 1

Just keeping everyone up on the news that a Wizbang editor says doesn't have enough "entertainment value".

Dane, you are SO narrow-min... (Below threshold)

Dane, you are SO narrow-minded:

Muslims killed by non-Muslims in New York City for the "crime" of being Muslim: almost 1

Non-Muslims killed by Muslims in New York City for the "crime" of being non-Muslim: ~3,000 and rising.

Also, it's worth noting that this nutjob was slightly more successful than the Muslim who set the car bomb in Times Square earlier this year...

J.

More info? What's that for?... (Below threshold)
Conservachef:

More info? What's that for?

Linky


You mean this guy worked with a group supporting the ground zero mosque? (sorry- the community-center-that-happens-to-have-a-mosque-built-two-blocks-from-ground-zero.)

Christian? No mention either way that I can find. So your broad brush is amazingly idiotic. Wizbang reader? Again, no mention of it in anything I have read, so your magical broad brush smear tactic has officially gone over it's credit limit. You should really try to curb your enthusiasm.

Maybe--- Just maybe--- this guy is a nutball who got drunk and went crazy with his leatherman. What he did is deplorable and in no way representative of anything other than... A drunk nutjob.

7% might very well be high,... (Below threshold)
wtfo:

7% might very well be high, depending on how you distinguish between "moderate" and "radical".

But 7% of 1 and a half thousand million is a very, very large number. So is the remaining 93%.

And when a large portion of that remaining 93% has shown that is is willing to sit on its hands, look, the other way, or just plain pitch in with safe-houses when needed (which still somehow makes them moderates), then you have a problem.

That problem is, how many of us have to die while we fuck around trying to sort out that 7%.

Given how many people we're talking about here, I'm betting we run out of patience before we find out.

In #40 Jay Tea equates Al-Q... (Below threshold)
Dane:

In #40 Jay Tea equates Al-Qaeda terrorist responsible for 9/11 with Christian Americans killing Muslim Americans.

if you needed any proof that the right wing is off the fracking tracks there it is.

Jay Tea says it's okay for Christian Americans to kill Muslim Americans in retribution for 9/11.

Wizbang declares religious war, sanctions open attacks on Muslim Americans.

I knew it would come to this.

the 5K number is f... (Below threshold)
the 5K number is for Women killed by Islam worldwide.

Then that number is just as wrong if not even more so.

First, please get a link to where that number comes from. Second, let's then compare it to the number of women killed by Christians, how about that?

The part I wanted to have was the rise of Women and Children Killed in IUSA for so called honor killing which is on the rise.

Then please provide a link for that assertion as well, and how it's supposedly "on the rise".

Jay, you need to get off th... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

Jay, you need to get off the Axe Body Spray or at least change the scent. The stuff you're wearing seems to attract the crazy anti-American pro-terrorist types like Obama . . .

JT, where in this "taxi cab... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JT, where in this "taxi cab, throat cutting" incident did it say the perpetrator was Christian? Is it there or did Dane as usual pull it out of his ass? As far a a count goes, the muslims are in the tens of thousands of murders this year alone. Not counting the maiming, disfiguring, etc. Again, Dane is like that other commenter that was banned. Just throws accusations around in a juvenile way without regards to facts. ww

Jay Tea, for years, has bee... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Jay Tea, for years, has been urging moderate Muslims to stand up and expose their radical extremist brethren, particularly in the more 'fundamentalist' Islamic countries. The majority, as Jay writes have learned that for decades and centuries -- that the best way for them to survive is to go along to get along. Those who have not, have learned that accomodation, have generally paid the price. Easier said than done, to speak truth to power.

Just listen to the mealy-mouthed phrases Bush and Obama have spoken, when as guests ,they have acquiesced, to the 'House of Saud', one of the most hardened Islamic despotic regimes, on their tours in the Mid- East. Certainly no talk of regime change there, by our fearless leaders or even root and branch reform.

But the one person, who hasn't been afraid to urge Muslims, in their own countries in the Mid-East, to adopt the American Constitution and it`s Bill Of Rights is Iman Rauf, whose

revisionism extends so far as to trash most putatively Islamic states--since 656 C.E., that is, when "the Muslims succumbed to dynastic rule, a paradigm of governance that did not display Islamic religious values." No wonder it's been a rough 13+ centuries for Islam ever since. But the moment, he argues, is ripe for American Muslims, for "no contradiction exists between Islam's theology and the longing of many Muslims for democratic values and equality of opportunity. ... Islam's theology and jurisprudence demand it." That is, the American system is the answer to an Islamic prayer.

And does he get any praise or encouragement from right wing conservatives...Yes sure, you have seen the outpouring of comments and posts the last couple of weeks about Iman Rauf; it is as if he were the second coming of Osama bin Laden.

1.5 trillion muslims world ... (Below threshold)
Darby:

1.5 trillion muslims world wide...

7% of that are "radical"

I find it highly suspect that number.

That would mean there are 105,000,000,000 muslims that are "radical" all calling for the downfall of the United States? I'm sorry, but that's just not a realistic number. 105 Billion people... Think about that for a minute...

A quick google search for "How many rounds of ammuntion does the world produce per year" fouunda link from a paper in the UK regarding potential ammo use from the IRaw and Afghanistan wars back in 2005.

"A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine."

Think about that... 1.8 Billion rounds, per year... The United States at the time was forced to buy ammo from Israel to fill the need. Our own ability to make bullets was maxed out.

If there truly was 7% of muslims who truly wanted the downfall of the US. They could easily accomplish it. Quite simply we do not produce enough bullets to kill 105 BILLION potential invaders.

If they really wanted to destroy us, they could simply drown us in bodies. I mean "radical" muslims are all for martydom right?

I would say that the percentage is probably much lower then 7%. Perhaps .5% maybe. Anyways, I just thought that putting a number on the "radical" amount of muslims is fairly useless.

"So the U.S. has zero allie... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"So the U.S. has zero allies in the Middle East other than Israel? Is that actually what you're saying, jim m?"

No, of course not and you know it wasn't. I was talking about the behavior of individuals and the impact that social circles and religion has upon their decisions. The behavior of governments (dictatorships in this case) is quite different and that behavior is motivated less by social affinities as it is by the realities of staying in power and the consequences for falling out of power.

Never mind New York city, ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Never mind New York city, we are always told how brutal the other side, radical Muslim extremists are, (as if that is an excuse,) but this story ,makes we wonder what we as the are doing over there, and how common the deliberate or wanton of killing of civilians is, by our so called civilized side,

"Never mind New York city..... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"Never mind New York city..."

NO Steve. Stop being an ass and refusing to confront the violence of these people and excusing their actions by the supposed misdeeds by our military in a theater of battle. The two simply do not equate.

Now we hear that the idiot who attacked the cab driver is a GZ mosque supporter. I suppose that you don't want to hear about leftist violence either.

Maybe you could take a page from your own book and stop turning your eyes from the violence and hate perpetrated by one side upon the other.

Steve, when "our side" susp... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Steve, when "our side" suspects a soldier of gunning for civilians, there is a trial and if needed, harsh punishment. The other side? They egg him on.

Maybe you could take a p... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Maybe you could take a page from your own book and stop turning your eyes from the violence and hate perpetrated by one side upon the other.

Jim m.. Wizbang presents enough evidence of atrocities from those of the 'muslim faith' along with many knee jerk, pro -military pieces, it is hard to miss them. Far be it for me to look for more. I`m just trying to give some balance. I think we have to discharge more responsibility right up to Obama, the Commander-in-Chief for rooting out the bullies and miscreants, rather than concentrating on singling out only gay soldiers. We must be get serious about 'collateral damage' or the killing of innocents, which provides kindle for anti-American feeling, as every General in Afghanistan for years has confirmed, rather than just talking about it.

I don't know what these soldiers were thinking. The right wing always says its people that kill, not guns, Fair enough , but by the same token then, the vague theater of war (these weren't battles) can not pardon men in US uniforms, from taking reponsibility for the deliberate killing of civilians. From my link,

"Others told investigators Gibbs eventually turned the talk into action, forming what one called a "kill team" to carry out random executions of Afghans.

Great, they sound more bored than anything, and if they could get away with it they would. I wonder how they are going to conduct themselves back on US soil, as well.

Steve, when "our side" s... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Steve, when "our side" suspects a soldier of gunning for civilians, there is a trial and if needed, harsh punishment.

This 'kill team' only was revealed five months after the first incident, by a soldier who was involved from Sarah Palin`s small home town of Wasilla, in the bible belt, part in "the real America", as Sarah refers to it.

The alleged murder plot came to the attention of the Army in May, according to court documents.

Army officials were initially investigating a brutal assault on an enlisted man not (the Wasilla man) who had informed on soldiers smoking hashish. The informant told investigators he'd heard other soldiers talk about civilian killings.


It is not the men who were smoking hashish and opium who were brutally assaulted but the soldier who informed on them that was brutally assaulted and the 'kill team' plot was only learned of secondarily as a unintended consequence...great, I guess now wizbang commentators will be excusing this, as being in the 'haze' rather than 'fog of war'.

Darn, Dane has figured it o... (Below threshold)

Darn, Dane has figured it out. I, Wizbang's resident agnostic, am trying to instigate a religious war. Let all us doubters rise up in the name of "To Whom It May Concern" and butcher those whom either worship a deity or deny the existence thereof. The only true answer is no answer, and those who claim to know the truth must be destroyed.

Christ, Dane, I can't even get into your type of stupid, and I'm trying. One nutjob -- for reasons as yet undetermined -- does one crazy thing, and that's the fault of... well, anyone who doesn't agree with you. But I'm hysterical and hate-mongering for pointing out that the motives of the 9/11 terrorists, the DC snipers, the would-be Times Square bomber, the Fort Hood shooter, the African Embassy bombers, the USS Cole bombers, and countless others were all the same: for the greater glory of Allah.

All I'm saying, Dane, is if you wanna hang this lone nut on me, why can't we apply the same standards to all those Muslim fanatics? The tenuous logic you're using fits even better with them.

I reject that argument, but I am demanding that you either demonstrate honest consistency, or admit you're a dishonest hack.

The parallel is so obvious, that you simply can't be so stupid as to not see it. That kind of denial has to be deliberate dishonesty.

J.

Wow. Jay still can't bring ... (Below threshold)
Dane:

Wow. Jay still can't bring himself to denounce the slashing of an American's throat simply because of that man's religion.

When you can't say "that was wrong" motives become suspect.

Is it that members of the Wizbang community are secretly cheering on the man who took and knife and slashed a man's throat and stabbed him? are you afraid of pissing those maniacs off, Jay?

It's an amazing display of hate that takes place when American on American crime is secretly (and not so secretly) applauded - and it centers on religion. America isn't free when your chosen religion can get you murdered in cold blood in the streets.

Dane you should mosey on ov... (Below threshold)
Zelsdorf Ragshaft III:

Dane you should mosey on over the Outside the Beltway. Your logic and opinions will not often be challenged there by many. Here, your faulty logic and challenged intellect will be pounced upon and savaged. Your feeling could ge hurt.

What's wrong with Darby?</p... (Below threshold)
john:

What's wrong with Darby?

1.5 trillion muslims world wide... That would mean there are 105,000,000,000 muslims that are "radical" all calling for the downfall of the United States? I'm sorry, but that's just not a realistic number. 105 Billion people... Think about that for a minute...

Given that there are only 6 billion people in the world, we don't have to think about that number for even a second to know that you're spewing nonsense.

Dane, I don't get worked up... (Below threshold)

Dane, I don't get worked up about isolated, random incidents. If the attempted murder in New York was part of a larger pattern, I'd be concerned. In the meantime, the assailant has been identified and caught, and he needs to be locked up for a very long time.

The more details that emerge, the more wonko the whole thing is. The current story seems to be that the attacker is a violent drunk who was loaded at the time. He also is affiliated with a rather liberal media group that supports the mosque. He also is a student filmmaker who was embedded with the Marines in Afghanistan. He also had some serious anti-Muslim rants in his diary.

And the cabbie is apparently not in favor of the Ground Zero mosque.

This case is far, far too twisted to draw any patterns as yet. The kid who attacked the cabbie looks like he was just plain crazy.

Kind of like the far-left nutjob who flew his plane into the IRS offices in Texas.

I don't use lone psychos to condemn entire factions, Dane. If I did, I'd have to hold you up and blame all leftists for your words.

J.

Crickmore,Any other ... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Crickmore,
Any other thoughts you want to attribute? Strawmen to build?
Authorities investigating one crime found evidence of another, and are investigating. What is your major problem here?

J wrote "I don't use lon... (Below threshold)
dane:

J wrote "I don't use lone psychos to condemn entire factions, Dane."

Yeah - like you would condemn all Muslims just becasue of the actions of the 9/11 Islamic extremists, right?

Oh wait. That's exactly what you did in opposing the Park51 project. You ddecided the American muslims needed to make amends for what the Saudi Muslims extremists did on 9/11.

Hey! Is this one of those "irony" things - you know, where you say something that proves your really nothing more than a buffoon?

Or is that "hypocrisy" - I get them confused some times.

Yes, Dane, those 19 lone ps... (Below threshold)

Yes, Dane, those 19 lone psychos. And the lone psycho who tried the car bomb in Times Square. And the lone psycho at Ford Hood. And the two lone psychos who went on the sniper spree around DC. And the lone psychos who tried to bring down the WTC in 1993. And the lone psychos who beheaded Daniel Pearl. And the lone psychos who almost sank the USS Cole. And he lone psychos who bombed the US embassies in Africa. And the lone psychos who set off the bombs in London on 7/7. And the lone psychos who set off the bombs in Indonesia. And the lone psychos who attacked the hotels in India.

Wait a minute... all those were carried out by a group of people. A group of people all united by a certain interpretation of a certain faith. And if it's a group (even a loosely affiliated one), then the word "lone" doesn't apply.

Wow, Dane... you've just utterly beclowned yourself because you didn't understand the word "lone."

Go get yourself a dictionary, you gibbering dolt. Or bookmark one.

J.

JT, surprised you didn't pi... (Below threshold)
Olsoljer:

JT, surprised you didn't pick up on the totally most assinine question of Dane's (I know it's hard to choose sometimes)

"How many Christians got their throats slashed this year because of their religion?"

Personally I have no idea of the number, but how many were in the medical team recently executed in Afghanistan? (I'm pretty sure it was more than one)




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