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How would we have fared in WWII...

... if our troops were as handcuffed as they are today?

Troops.jpg
To the U.S. Army soldiers and Marines serving here, some things seem so obviously true that they are beyond debate. Among those perceived truths: Tthe restrictive rules of engagement that they have to fight under have made serving in combat far more dangerous for them, while allowing the Taliban to return to a position of strength.

"If they use rockets to hit the [forward operating base] we can't shoot back because they were within 500 meters of the village. If they shoot at us and drop their weapon in the process we can't shoot back," said Spc. Charles Brooks, 26, a U.S. Army medic with 1st Battalion, 4th Infantry Regiment, in Zabul province.

Word had come down the morning Brooks spoke to this reporter that watch towers surrounding the base were going to be dismantled because Afghan village elders, some sympathetic to the Taliban, complained they were invading their village privacy. "We have to take down our towers because it offends them and now the Taliban can set up mortars and we can't see them," Brooks added, with disgust.

In June, Gen. David Petraeus, who took command here after the self-inflicted demise of Gen. Stanley McChrystal, told Congress that he was weighing a major change with rules for engaging enemy fighters in Afghanistan. That has not yet happened, troops say. Soldiers and Marines continue to be held back by what they believe to be strict rules imposed by the government of President Hamid Karzai designed with one objective: limit Afghan civilian casualties.

"I don't think the military leaders, president or anybody really cares about what we're going through," said Spc. Matthew "Silver" Fuhrken, 25, from Watertown, N.Y. "I'm sick of people trying to cover up what's really going on over here. They won't let us do our job. I don't care if they try to kick me out for what I'm saying -- war is war and this is no war. I don't know what this is."

It's idiocy, plain and simple... and with Obama and his minions running this show, it'll only get worse.

Our guys are dying because of this and Americans ought to be outraged.  If we're not going to let them fight, then bring them home.


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Comments (27)

Vietnam all over again. Did... (Below threshold)
Stan:

Vietnam all over again. Didn't the Generals learn their lesson there? Seems that Obama has struck fear into the General staff at the Pentagon and now controls things down to the squad level again.

If what is now taking place in Afghanistan, took place in WW2, we would now be speaking German on the east coast and Japanese on the West Coast. They did not care about being politically correct about fighting a war. Georgie Patton is turning over in his grave.

we won't fight without hand... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

we won't fight without handcuffs again, as we did in WWII, until we fight on our own soil.

sadly, the actions of our Pretender-In-Chief are hastening that day.

Would Barry take the handcu... (Below threshold)
914:

Would Barry take the handcuffs off if his own children were in the line of fire?

They are since he is C.I.C. Unfortunately he is choosing to Dukakis the military/.; Dumb, very dumb..

It's a dumb premise - it's ... (Below threshold)
galoob:

It's a dumb premise - it's not conventional warfare like WWII. In a counterinsurgency, slaughtering noncombatant civilians, women and children, only causes more insurgents to fight. But I agree, GTF out of there, it's another Vietnam. Except that a million plus Vietnamese were killed, and we still lost.

You can't bring Afghanistan into the 18th Century, let alone the 21st. They don't want it.

If Al Qaeda comes back (they're in Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan and Somalia now, anyways), you can bomb them with drones.

Taking down watchtowers bec... (Below threshold)
Mike Giles:

Taking down watchtowers because villagers complain it invades their privacy! Who is their CO? Doesn't he have the nerve to either resign or be court martialed first? Is he willing to allow his men to be placed in such a position?

Our President campaigned on... (Below threshold)
BlueNight:

Our President campaigned on the perception that Iraq/Afghanistan were Vietnam. It's pretty much too late to turn Iraq into Vietnam, but he's doing his best to "salvage" Afghanistan.

"If Al Qaeda comes back (th... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"If Al Qaeda comes back (they're in Pakistan, Yemen, Sudan and Somalia now, anyways), you can bomb them with drones."

My, my. Bloodthirsty SOB aren't you? Aren't you afraid of 'collateral damage'?

I always had thought the sa... (Below threshold)
mag:

I always had thought the same thing. If we had today's rules and PC we would have lost the war. Then what??? After Hilter kill all the Jewish people, cripple people, and homosexuals, etc...who was he going to go after than? Hilter would have most certainly gone after the minorities in this country. He would have gone after people if he did not like the color of their eyes. No one would be safe.
So what would all these peace loving people do then....Oh, they probably would not be around.

The 'war' in Afghanistan's ... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

The 'war' in Afghanistan's shifted from being a war to a police action.

Police actions aren't winnable, unless you've got a population that's willing to be policed - and the Taliban/Al Quaeda guys most definitely are not.

So we're faced with two choices - lose with dignity, or win by shifting back to a war footing and going after the bad guys regardless of how many hostages they hide behind. It's not PC to do so, and it won't set well with the Afghani government - but they've basically thrown their lot in with the enemy so it might be just too bad.

There's actually a third option, isolation - no aid, no money, no nothin', and WE blockade to make sure nothing gets in and out - and it's possible, but not likely. It's tempting to say "Fuck 'em, let them stew in their own juice" - but that's just setting things up for even more problems down the road.

The Taliban has one great advantage that we don't - a constancy of purpose. All any enemy faced with defeat by us needs to do is hold on long enough, and we just plain abandon the effort.

Good thing the Germans and Japanese didn't decide to wait it out...

RE: How would we have fared... (Below threshold)
kevino:

RE: How would we have fared in WWII...
We'd be speaking German.

galOOb~"In a co... (Below threshold)
914:

galOOb~

"In a counterinsurgency, slaughtering noncombatant civilians, women and children, only causes more insurgents to fight"


Dont be an idiot! Oops, too late.

What were "insurgents" doing otherwise? Picking their asses among the poppies?


And WHERE is that great con... (Below threshold)
oldpuppymax:

And WHERE is that great conservative, pro-military bastion of towering COURAGE, Mitchie the Kid McConnell?? Why is he not SCREAMING about this ludicrous nonsense?? Why is he not on FOX, Rush, etc 24/7 speaking of this and demanding the rules be changed??

The present course... (Below threshold)
irongrampa:


The present course of action virtually guarantees an outcome similar to Vietnam. Just as that war was lost HERE, so this one may yet be.

Not much hope here that Petraeus will be allowed to prosecute the war as he is capable of doing.

And that will constitute a denial of the effort and sacrifice those proud young men and women have undertaken.

The left is intent on handc... (Below threshold)
jim m:

The left is intent on handcuffing us and it won't stop even with action on US soil. The left has convinced itself that all cultures are equal except ours and that ours is inferior to all others. The left actively seeks to destroy our influence and damage our military abroad. They would do even more if that action were here and they could act more directly.

Today's left is racist and antisemitic. They would have done everything they could to prevent us from going to war against Germany. FDR had enough trouble as it was. He would never have been able to do it today.

As much as I dislike Barry'... (Below threshold)
SOH:

As much as I dislike Barry's policies, I find it hard to blame the current or future ROE on him directly. Yes, Afganistan is the new Vietnam and there is nothing we can do to stop it, short of total all out war (but that will never happen).

On the other hand, more tha... (Below threshold)
Paul Hooson:

On the other hand, more than a few folks around here opposed the bailout of Chrysler and GM, although both were important military contractors both in WWII and now.

Non sequitor, Paulsh... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

Non sequitor, Paul
should we resurrect all the companies that were once great contributors to previous war efforts? Maybe one of your failed business ventures will rise from the grave with them

should we resurrect all ... (Below threshold)
galoob:

should we resurrect all the companies that were once great contributors to previous war efforts? Maybe one of your failed business ventures will rise from the grave with them

By all means, let your industrial base disappear. We will make everything you want, and when the time comes, relieve you of not only the burden of making things, but the burden of governing yourselves.

- - - signed, Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party

I don't think that any dire... (Below threshold)
ryan a:

I don't think that any direct comparison between WWII and the current war in Afghanistan is really very useful, ROE or otherwise.

Sorry, but these are two very different cases.

Good thing they won't be ab... (Below threshold)
ODA315:

Good thing they won't be able to vote this year.....

We need to bring the troops... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

We need to bring the troops home.
Once home it time to poor billions into the military so that we can redeploy in 2 years after we have absorbed 3-4 attacks.


We lost the Afghan war when we stated that we were going to pull out at a date. It has hamstrung everything. If your a village Elder and you know the US and NATO troops are leaving a a certain date why would you cooperate?

How hard will short timers push when they know we are going to bug out soon?

We have conceded victory now it time to leave and save the lives and health of our troops.

The alternative is to fight to win the war and that means a greater commitment of troops and resources than anyone is willing to commit in this current administration.

The alternative is to fi... (Below threshold)
galoob:

The alternative is to fight to win the war and that means a greater commitment of troops and resources than anyone is willing to commit in this current administration.

But don't raise my taxes!! Funny that the tax aspect doesn't come up in Rick's analysis - the top marginal tax rate on couples earning over $200,000 in 1944 was 94 percent.

You have to tax to get "troops and resources."

We won WWII for several rea... (Below threshold)
Matt:

We won WWII for several reasons.
1) We could out manufacture the Axis powers, especially after bombing campaings designed to damage their manufacturing base.
2) We could keep a steady stream of soldiers going on to the battlefield, Germany, Japan could not. Russia could, and was likely the only reason they were not defeated.
3) Our government was willing to take the fight to the populations of the countries we were fighting, rightly or wrongly, and make them sick and tired of the war. We demonstrated to Japan and Germany that if we had to destroy their entire countries to win, we would.
4) We were willing to work with most anybody (russian communists, chinese warlords etc) to win. We were willing to fight anywhere to win.
5) even though we killed thousands of civilians with targeted raids, a lot of effort was put in to limit civilian casualties on the ground battlefields. Soldiers were limited as to how and when they could engage ostensibly civilian targets and in several operations heavy bombing and/or artillery barrages were limited prior to the infantry attacks, limiting civilian casualties but increasing GI casualities.
6) We also had a moral imperative to win WWII, I am no sure so much about Afghanistan.

Gaboob, I am willing to pay... (Below threshold)
ODA315:

Gaboob, I am willing to pay higher taxes to support our foreign policy insuring our safety.

I'm NOT willing to pay taxes that will be given to ACORN, or used to bribe legislators to vote a certain way, or used to kickback to special interests who contributed to certain election campaigns, or used to fund "art" such as "PissChrist", or used to build an overpass for turtles, or used to pay unemployement for nearly TWO years, ......or any of the many of the foolish projects used to waste our $.

Gaboob, I am willing to ... (Below threshold)
galoob:

Gaboob, I am willing to pay higher taxes to support our foreign policy insuring our safety.

Well, the cost of Afghanistan and Iraq is a helluva lot more than ACORN or bridges for turtles.

Personally, bridges for turtles probably does more good than most of the money we piss away in the Middle East. Not to mention the sacred blood.

Doubly dangerous that Ameri... (Below threshold)

Doubly dangerous that America's rules of engagement poofters and a handful of seventh century barbarians are seeming to have the upper hand against the greatest military the world has ever seen.

More Americans and our only real boots-on-the-ground allies, Australians, will be killed by this bullsh*t, whose double edged sword is to also incite and motivate more of the world's many moronic manifestations of evil by encouraging them to believe America to be a paper tiger.

Although -- as the good folks of Dresden, Tokyo, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki might recall -- God forbid the basta*ds P us off enough.

For without the restrictions with which the rules of engagement poofters and other treasonous "Democrats" paralyze it, our Military is still capable of projecting its might to every corner of the world and every bit as capable of simultaneously engaging and summarily defeating Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization's every enemy from among the next twenty most "powerful" nations, states and dictatorships.

(Are you listening Moscow and Peking? And any other wannabe predator and/or PLA-like baby and women killers?)

hcddbz says we lost the Afg... (Below threshold)

hcddbz says we lost the Afghan War when we stated that we were going to pull out at a date ....

Reality is we lost Afghanistan soon after President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld and (despite its having been gutted by the co-serial-rapist treasonous Billy-Bubbah Blythe Gang) the world's mightiest-ever Military had won it, way back when the marijuana-mumbling modern Mussolini was still pretending to be a "senator." From the moment, that is, one Buraq Hussayn bin Buraq Hussayn bin Hussayn Ubambi both pathetically politicized and took absolute ownership of Obama's War.




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