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This is tolerance... this is open-mindedness...

This is hard core liberalism from the man who was once the Bishop of the Diocese of Newark in the Episcopal Church USA:

A Manifesto! The Time Has Come

I have made a decision. I will no longer debate the issue of homosexuality in the church with anyone. I will no longer engage the biblical ignorance that emanates from so many right-wing Christians about how the Bible condemns homosexuality, as if that point of view still has any credibility. I will no longer discuss with them or listen to them tell me how homosexuality is "an abomination to God," about how homosexuality is a "chosen lifestyle," or about how through prayer and "spiritual counseling" homosexual persons can be "cured." Those arguments are no longer worthy of my time or energy. I will no longer dignify by listening to the thoughts of those who advocate "reparative therapy," as if homosexual persons are somehow broken and need to be repaired. I will no longer talk to those who believe that the unity of the church can or should be achieved by rejecting the presence of, or at least at the expense of, gay and lesbian people. I will no longer take the time to refute the unlearned and undocumentable claims of certain world religious leaders who call homosexuality "deviant." I will no longer listen to that pious sentimentality that certain Christian leaders continue to employ, which suggests some version of that strange and overtly dishonest phrase that "we love the sinner but hate the sin." That statement is, I have concluded, nothing more than a self-serving lie designed to cover the fact that these people hate homosexual persons and fear homosexuality itself, but somehow know that hatred is incompatible with the Christ they claim to profess, so they adopt this face-saving and absolutely false statement. I will no longer temper my understanding of truth in order to pretend that I have even a tiny smidgen of respect for the appalling negativity that continues to emanate from religious circles where the church has for centuries conveniently perfumed its ongoing prejudices against blacks, Jews, women and homosexual persons with what it assumes is "high-sounding, pious rhetoric." The day for that mentality has quite simply come to an end for me. I will personally neither tolerate it nor listen to it any longer. The world has moved on, leaving these elements of the Christian Church that cannot adjust to new knowledge or a new consciousness lost in a sea of their own irrelevance. They no longer talk to anyone but themselves. I will no longer seek to slow down the witness to inclusiveness by pretending that there is some middle ground between prejudice and oppression. There isn't. Justice postponed is justice denied. That can be a resting place no longer for anyone. An old civil rights song proclaimed that the only choice awaiting those who cannot adjust to a new understanding was to "Roll on over or we'll roll on over you!" Time waits for no one.
 
I will particularly ignore those members of my own Episcopal Church who seek to break away from this body to form a "new church," claiming that this new and bigoted instrument alone now represents the Anglican Communion. Such a new ecclesiastical body is designed to allow these pathetic human beings, who are so deeply locked into a world that no longer exists, to form a community in which they can continue to hate gay people, distort gay people with their hopeless rhetoric and to be part of a religious fellowship in which they can continue to feel justified in their homophobic prejudices for the rest of their tortured lives. Church unity can never be a virtue that is preserved by allowing injustice, oppression and psychological tyranny to go unchallenged.
 
In my personal life, I will no longer listen to televised debates conducted by "fair-minded" channels that seek to give "both sides" of this issue "equal time." I am aware that these stations no longer give equal time to the advocates of treating women as if they are the property of men or to the advocates of reinstating either segregation or slavery, despite the fact that when these evil institutions were coming to an end the Bible was still being quoted frequently on each of these subjects. It is time for the media to announce that there are no longer two sides to the issue of full humanity for gay and lesbian people. There is no way that justice for homosexual people can be compromised any longer.
I will no longer act as if the Papal office is to be respected if the present occupant of that office is either not willing or not able to inform and educate himself on public issues on which he dares to speak with embarrassing ineptitude. I will no longer be respectful of the leadership of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who seems to believe that rude behavior, intolerance and even killing prejudice is somehow acceptable, so long as it comes from third-world religious leaders, who more than anything else reveal in themselves the price that colonial oppression has required of the minds and hearts of so many of our world's population. I see no way that ignorance and truth can be placed side by side, nor do I believe that evil is somehow less evil if the Bible is quoted to justify it. I will dismiss as unworthy of any more of my attention the wild, false and uninformed opinions of such would-be religious leaders as Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Albert Mohler, and Robert Duncan. My country and my church have both already spent too much time, energy and money trying to accommodate these backward points of view when they are no longer even tolerable.
 
I make these statements because it is time to move on. The battle is over. The victory has been won. There is no reasonable doubt as to what the final outcome of this struggle will be. Homosexual people will be accepted as equal, full human beings, who have a legitimate claim on every right that both church and society have to offer any of us. Homosexual marriages will become legal, recognized by the state and pronounced holy by the church. "Don't ask, don't tell" will be dismantled as the policy of our armed forces. We will and we must learn that equality of citizenship is not something that should ever be submitted to a referendum. Equality under and before the law is a solemn promise conveyed to all our citizens in the Constitution itself. Can any of us imagine having a public referendum on whether slavery should continue, whether segregation should be dismantled, whether voting privileges should be offered to women? The time has come for politicians to stop hiding behind unjust laws that they themselves helped to enact, and to abandon that convenient shield of demanding a vote on the rights of full citizenship because they do not understand the difference between a constitutional democracy, which this nation has, and a "mobocracy," which this nation rejected when it adopted its constitution. We do not put the civil rights of a minority to the vote of a plebiscite.
 
I will also no longer act as if I need a majority vote of some ecclesiastical body in order to bless, ordain, recognize and celebrate the lives and gifts of gay and lesbian people in the life of the church. No one should ever again be forced to submit the privilege of citizenship in this nation or membership in the Christian Church to the will of a majority vote.
 
The battle in both our culture and our church to rid our souls of this dying prejudice is finished. A new consciousness has arisen. A decision has quite clearly been made. Inequality for gay and lesbian people is no longer a debatable issue in either church or state. Therefore, I will from this moment on refuse to dignify the continued public expression of ignorant prejudice by engaging it. I do not tolerate racism or sexism any longer. From this moment on, I will no longer tolerate our culture's various forms of homophobia. I do not care who it is who articulates these attitudes or who tries to make them sound holy with religious jargon.
 
I have been part of this debate for years, but things do get settled and this issue is now settled for me. I do not debate any longer with members of the "Flat Earth Society" either. I do not debate with people who think we should treat epilepsy by casting demons out of the epileptic person; I do not waste time engaging those medical opinions that suggest that bleeding the patient might release the infection. I do not converse with people who think that Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans as punishment for the sin of being the birthplace of Ellen DeGeneres or that the terrorists hit the United Sates on 9/11 because we tolerated homosexual people, abortions, feminism or the American Civil Liberties Union. I am tired of being embarrassed by so much of my church's participation in causes that are quite unworthy of the Christ I serve or the God whose mystery and wonder I appreciate more each day. Indeed I feel the Christian Church should not only apologize, but do public penance for the way we have treated people of color, women, adherents of other religions and those we designated heretics, as well as gay and lesbian people.
 
Life moves on. As the poet James Russell Lowell once put it more than a century ago: "New occasions teach new duties, Time makes ancient good uncouth." I am ready now to claim the victory. I will from now on assume it and live into it. I am unwilling to argue about it or to discuss it as if there are two equally valid, competing positions any longer. The day for that mentality has simply gone forever.
This is my manifesto and my creed. I proclaim it today. I invite others to join me in this public declaration. I believe that such a public outpouring will help cleanse both the church and this nation of its own distorting past. It will restore integrity and honor to both church and state. It will signal that a new day has dawned and we are ready not just to embrace it, but also to rejoice in it and to celebrate it.
 
- John Shelby Spong

Imagine the Pope coming out with the flip side of this pronouncement... how do you think it'd be received?  Do you think it would be criticized?  How would the press treat the Pope?  And yet this bromide will barely get any notice from our leftist media unless it's to agree with most if not all of it and to treat Spong as some sort of hero.

There's a lesson here for all who honestly think that leftists desire dialog.  A huge one. 

H/T to Wheat & Weeds.


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Comments (53)

Did anyone actually read th... (Below threshold)
Les Nessman:

Did anyone actually read that paragraph-needing, filibusting drivel all the way through? No thanks.
A few excerpts and a link would have been enough.

So?Is anyone surpr... (Below threshold)
jim m:

So?

Is anyone surprised that this fool has decided to curse his own faith? Spong has made himself rich off of courting liberal opinion. He was a member of the Jesus Seminar that declared that virtually all of the Bible was a lie. He doesn't believe in basic Christian doctrine and his actions in the American Episcopal church have caused division and isolation from other churches in the Anglican communion.

Like many, Spong has become enamored of his own notoriety and the attention that his opinions generate for him.

The Episcopal church is divided. I would guess that if he does speak for a majority of its members it is a very thin majority. I've been waiting to see the episcopal church finally break up in schism. This takes it one more step toward the brink.

The man is not a Christian by any normal definition of the term. Why we bother paying any heed to what he says is beyond me.

<a href="http://www.conserv... (Below threshold)
Pedro:

Conservapedia says:

Male homosexual acts account for a large proportion of AIDS transmission in the US and Europe, but AIDS transmission as a result of lesbian sex acts are low (and lower than for heterosexuals).
The Bible makes the admonition against male queerness, but says nothing about lesbianism.

"I will no longer debate ... (Below threshold)
Will:

"I will no longer debate the issue"
Right. Well, that is a good first step. Control of ones tongue is the beginning of control of ones life.

So what? It's just another... (Below threshold)
galoob:

So what? It's just another form of religious orthodoxy, and thus not based on reason.

At least he's not expressing a desire to interfere with other people's rights.

The sooner we don't listen to people who claim to be channeling the word of God, and work to figure out things for ourselves, the better off we will be.

Wonderful!! Rick, you did w... (Below threshold)
MorningRain:

Wonderful!! Rick, you did well. Tolerance is so important. For me, I will be honest & say I don't understand homosexuals, but then I remember we are all Americans & we must support each other. Homosexuals are just as Americans as everyone else!

I can only mention a book out where ALL Americans unite & take a stand against those who try to divide us into 'tribes'. They divide & conquer us & we can't let them do this to us.

www.booksbyoliver.com

We have to be civil & respectful & stand together against corrupt govt. & celebrities to want to keep the power in Washington.

Remember, it's We the People....not you the government....and we stand united even if we don't agree on the issues. I recommend the book. IT's about Americans uniting again.

Pedro ... look at Romans 1:... (Below threshold)

Pedro ... look at Romans 1:26-27.

The entire first chapter of Romans puts it in perspective. God's wrath will be visited upon the unrighteous. And because man has been so unrighteous, some have been condemned to live in sin (Romans 1:28-31).

It is also in Romans, however, that we (believers) are admonished not to judge. That is is God who will judge us all, believers and non-believers. (Romans 2:1-5) This is where some Christians fail to serve their fellow man, the neighbor they have been commanded to love as themselves. Homosexuals are sinners, yes, but so is everyone else. Even the most pious and obedient Christian has the stain of sin. The only difference is that those who have submitted their life to Christ and accepted the gift of life eternal through faith in Him, they have been washed clean of that sin and will not be condemned to death (hell). We all will be judged for our works and motivations though, and those who have persecuted and judged homosexuals will be called on that as they stand at the Throne of Judgment. It will not be a happy time.

That said, however, a look at Romans 1:32 - this is where the vast majority of Christians are coming from on this subject. Not only is it a sin to commit the deeds described in the previous verses - including sexual immorality and homosexuality - but it is also a sin to condone such behaviors. So, when I am told to shut up when I say homosexual activity is wrong, or extra-marital sex is a sin, that I am being hateful and bigoted and I should instead allow for these lifestyles as acceptable choices, I am being told to commit a sin. That I will not do.

It is not judgmental to say that something is a sin. We are commanded by Christ to call out evil where we see it. But we are not to condemn others for committing those sins, that is up to God. We are to love them, share the message of God's grace with them and pray for them.

Completely OT: Breaking new... (Below threshold)
Jeff Blogworthy:

Completely OT: Breaking news. One of the writers should be posting about this. It is a blogstorm in the making.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/31/palin-calls-alaska-media-corrupt-bastards-over-leaked-voicemail/

Before we start ta... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Before we start talking openly about what the Catholic Church defines as a disorder with a" a tendency towards evil"- hompsexuality- parishoners would be more interested if there was a open debate on Is Pope Benedict XVI Gay? Wonders Andrew Sullivan. Fat chance the Church would have that dialog? or on the large number of priests that have died of aids.

Steve,There is a d... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Steve,

There is a difference between Episcopals and Catholics. Don't waste our time with your ignorance or by citing the paranoid Andrew Sullivan.

Would sspong marry gay brot... (Below threshold)
ThomasD:

Would sspong marry gay brothers who wished to be a couple? If not, why not?

And if so, then would he marry heterosexual brother and sister? How could he ever 'discriminate' against the heterosexuals?

How many times did this tir... (Below threshold)
Webster:

How many times did this tiresome drip use the first person singular in his long-winded screed? Who cares what he listens or doesn't listen to? Big yawn.

I'm with Les - this ... (Below threshold)
macofromoc:


I'm with Les - this stream of consciousness diarrhea is unreadable.

Spong could have saved a lo... (Below threshold)
Maddox:

Spong could have saved a lot of time and effort if he just said "I am no longer listening to GOD or following his teachings. Our society has risen above his Word."
Liberalism has brought many changes to society, influencing and degrading religious values is the worst.

jim m: There is a diffe... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

jim m: There is a difference between Episcopals and Catholics. Don't waste our time with your ignorance or by citing the paranoid Andrew Sullivan.

Rick: Imagine the Pope coming out with the flip side of this pronouncement... how do you think it'd be received? Do you think it would be criticized? How would the press treat the Pope?

It was Rick who spent half of his post, outside of the blockquote, talking about a Papal pronouncement of homosexuality...outside of the Vatican no doubt?

If the msm press was doing its job, they would expose that the Vatican is riven with homosexuality which has an almost opera bouffe qualtity to it.

" The relationship could not be other than one of a homosexual nature," Ida Magli, a prominent anthropologist, told the Roman daily Il Messaggero. ""The Holy See wanted to close a case in a hurry, perhaps out of a need to hide a sad, worrisome truth."

LissaKay-Right! Trut... (Below threshold)
Pedro:

LissaKay-
Right! Truth is the new hate speech.

Pedro spoke thusly: The ... (Below threshold)
Jim:

Pedro spoke thusly: The Bible makes the admonition against male queerness, but says nothing about lesbianism.

Try reading The whole of Romans chapter 1 and get back to me with your recantation of this obviously false premise.

Completely OT: Bre... (Below threshold)
Completely OT: Breaking news. One of the writers should be posting about this. It is a blogstorm in the making.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/31/palin-calls-alaska-media-corrupt-bastards-over-leaked-voicemail/

Jeff ... I think this would be a marvelous opportunity for you to fire up YOUR blog again! Just sayin' ...

galoob: "The sooner we don'... (Below threshold)
Drago:

galoob: "The sooner we don't listen to people who claim to be channeling the word of God, and work to figure out things for ourselves, the better off we will be."

I'm quite sure Lenin and Mao were of the same mind.

"Imagine the Pope coming ou... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

"Imagine the Pope coming out with the flip side of this pronouncement."

Ummm, I'm pretty sure that the Church's dogma on this issue IS the flip side of this pronouncement.

Galoob is right, but there ... (Below threshold)
Woody:

Galoob is right, but there will always be a group of people who need to be told what to think.

They don't know what the bible says, for example, even though they read it and cherish it -- they need someone to tell them what it says and that's what they believe.

They don't know wh... (Below threshold)
They don't know what the bible says, for example, even though they read it and cherish it -- they need someone to tell them what it says and that's what they believe.

21. Posted by Woody | October 31, 2010 2:44 PM

Wha-a-a-ttt? Explain how you have arrived at this conclusion, because it is so completely off-base and totally whacked out, I cannot even comprehend how a sane, rational mind could think it.

We believers read the Bible, and we pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten us with understanding. Yes, we do turn to those who have made deeper study into the Word of God for clarification, but we do not take their word as absolute - they are men, and as men, can be wrong or misguided, which is why we pray for discernment.

I take it you are not a believer, as this verse fits what you seem to be saying:

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:18 ESV)

The media corrupt? Naw, cou... (Below threshold)
914:

The media corrupt? Naw, couldn't be.

And people wonder why the E... (Below threshold)

And people wonder why the Episcopal Church and its British counterpart, the Church of England, are collapsing and the doctrine has to get defended by the Third-World-based arms of the Anglican Communion.

If you find yourself in an "Anglican" church in the U.S. that still cares about the Word of God, it's a good bet it's associated with a "mission" organization out of Africa rather than the "mainline" Episcopals.

Apparently Spong has no tol... (Below threshold)
Dodo David:

Apparently Spong has no tolerance for people who accept the New Testament's teaching about homosexual behavior.

Jim-While I don't ma... (Below threshold)
Pedro:

Jim-
While I don't make judgments about what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms, the link I gave merely indicated that those who engage in butt hole surfing and swallowing are physically liable for the medical consequences. And that's not even getting into the societal costs for such behavior. So it looks like there is a valid reason for the original biblical admonition.

It must be nice to be able ... (Below threshold)
John F Not Kerry:

It must be nice to be able to pick and choose what you think is true or not in the Bible. There will be many, when they die, who will find out how that worked out for them, and regret the choices they made here on earth.

But not YOU, of course, not... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

But not YOU, of course, notSenator Kerry. YOU know exactly what the Bible says, and how it should be interpreted. Unlike "many."

LissaKay, you have it exact... (Below threshold)
pj:

LissaKay, you have it exactly right!

"They don't know what the b... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

"They don't know what the bible says, for example, even though they read it and cherish it -- they need someone to tell them what it says and that's what they believe."

Well, well, Woody, since - among your other talents - you are now a rather condescending expert on Christian theology would you mind citing at least one example where the believers in Christ are misinterpreting scripture and need to have it "clarified" for them?


Woody thinks that he unders... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Woody thinks that he understands Christians because he has heard libs spew criticism based on ignorant stereotypes. I doubt he has spent 2 consecutive seconds actually learning about contemporary Christianity in America. Had he done so he would know that many Christians do indeed read their Bibles and that central to Protestant belief is the idea that they do not need anyone to interpret it for them.

But like most libs he'd rather defame people based on his ignorant and uneducated views about reality.

A Manifesto!Like, ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

A Manifesto!

Like, Wow! Dude. Everything is like, you know, RELATIVE!

Lisakay, "Don't throw your ... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Lisakay, "Don't throw your pearls before swine". The bible is full of GODS view on homosexuality. If someone chooses to discount the word of God, they do at their own peril. As a Christian, I will pray for them. I do not hate homosexuals, but according to the word of God I have to be against the sin. That simple. There is no hate in that. ww

Bruce from last night-<br /... (Below threshold)
914:

Bruce from last night-

"All these authors here and nothing posted since noon Friday?

Next article, please.

Where's Mr Drummond been? Is Mr Mallow still unwell? Rick? Anybody?"


The next article has arrived. You have squandered it well.


Lisskay - What you said.<br... (Below threshold)
Walter Cronanty:

Lisskay - What you said.
This "Manifesto" is typical of "progressives." Not happy with what they read, whether it be our Constitution or the New Testament, they make grandiose proclamations based on how they think it should read. Unlike elitist judges who take it upon themselves to create new rights under the Constitution, while curtailing those rights which are specifically enumerated, what this man says about the Bible is of little consequence to me. I doubt that I'll ever be in his church, but if I am, I will attempt to respect whatever it is he happens to believe upon that occasion - and then promptly ignore it when I leave.

Steve, I realize you might ... (Below threshold)

Steve, I realize you might not be up on recent developments, but the church in question kind of split off from the Catholic Church about 440 years ago (finally; the first division was about 32 years before that).

So the Catholic Church -- and your problems with it -- don't really apply here.

Sorry to break it to you, but you GOTTA keep up with such fast-paced developments if you want to stay relevant.

J.

"they make grandiose procla... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"they make grandiose proclamations based on how they think it should read"

Unfortunately, Spong is from a group of liberal churchmen who have done exactly that with the Bible. Not content to accept it for what it says, they first declared that it wasn't really God's word so they had an excuse to not follow it or teach it and now they are denying the basic moral teachings that underlie it. No wonder the Episcopal church is dying. When religion is whatever you want it to be you don't need some moronic clergyman to encourage you to follow it.

The idiot, Spong, has made himself irrelevant. This is a desperate attempt at garnering some headlines.

Re # 36:Except the... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Re # 36:

Except the MOST recent development was Rick saying, in this post, "Imagine the Pope coming out with the flip side of this pronouncement." You wanna lecture Rick about the relevance of bringing the Pope into this debate?

I find it interesting how S... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I find it interesting how Spong, like other lefties, has declared that there is no more discussion to be had on the subject because he has made up his mind.

Just like obama declared "I won." Or how Gore declared that the science on AGW was settled and beyond discussion (and then the climategate computer files were leaked demonstrating that they had been falsifying their data for years).

It seems that when they know that they are wrong and do not have the support of the majority of the people they seek to cut off debate.

Like Gore calling people who disagree with him "Deniers" Spong conflates people who disagree with him with those favoring slavery. This is a tactic of the man who has nothing with which to make his argument. He offers nothing to support his position except ad hominem attacks on others.

Finally, he declares as some new revelation in support of his position something that everyone has agree upon: That gays are fully human and deserving of the same rights as everyone else.

Except the MOST recent d... (Below threshold)
galoob:

Except the MOST recent development was Rick saying, in this post, "Imagine the Pope coming out with the flip side of this pronouncement." You wanna lecture Rick about the relevance of bringing the Pope into this debate?

It's all about Rick's still being pissed off about the Episcopos asking about his penis, and his running back to the Catholic church after that.

In other words, the continuing psychodrama of a religious fanatic fighting the Thirty Years War and the Anglo-Spanish War again.

Rick: imagine the Pope ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Rick: imagine the Pope coming out ..? It would be refereshing, but since, according to Jay, it is not permissible or relevant to imagine or answer this, how about the present archbishop of the Anglican (Episcopal) Church being, lets us say, very sympathetic to the plight of gay bishops. Is the archbishop discounting the word of God as well, when he says,

he had been conscious of the issue of homosexuality as "a wound in the whole ministry" since his appointment as Archbishop of Canterbury in 2002.

But he had to decide against endorsing gay relationships for clergy and bishops because "the cost to the Church overall was too great to be borne at that point".

He said: "To put it very simply, there's no problem about a gay person who's a bishop. It's about the fact that there are traditionally, historically, standards that the clergy are expected to observe. So there's always a question about the personal life of the clergy".

But not YOU, of course, not... (Below threshold)
John F Not Kerry:

But not YOU, of course, notSenator Kerry. YOU know exactly what the Bible says, and how it should be interpreted. Unlike "many."

28. Posted by Bruce Henry

Yes, it should be interpreted literally. When something is declared to be a sin, then it is a sin. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

Sure, I understand. That's ... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Sure, I understand. That's why I always stone every adulterer I find out about.

And why I never ever eat a barbecue sandwich, or lobster. And I always make my wife sleep in another room when she's "unclean," if you get my drift.

You know, like it says in the every-word-is-literally-true Bible. Same as you, notSenator.

Of course it should be interpreted literally. Obviously the Earth is 6000 years old, the sun stood still at Jericho, and two of every animal in the world got on a boat and floated around for months, then repopulated the world. Everybody knows that that is literally true!

Yes, it should be interp... (Below threshold)
galoob:

Yes, it should be interpreted literally. When something is declared to be a sin, then it is a sin. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

Bruce beat me to it, but I assume you don't eat pork, which is a sin. (Leviticus 11).

Or do you choose your sins, like from a cafeteria?

@Bruce ... you obviously ha... (Below threshold)

@Bruce ... you obviously have very little understanding of the Bible. If you did, you would know what Christ coming to earth meant and how that affected the Jewish laws enumerated in the Old Testament, to which your post refers. I would attempt to explain, however, I have been graciously cautioned against casting pearls before swine. But keep in mind, it is not a very wise thing to try to argue theology with believers when you have very little comprehension of it yourself.

And that goes for you too, ... (Below threshold)

And that goes for you too, Galoob. Go study the Bible, cover to cover ... not just read it, but study it. Then come back and try again.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that ... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Christ coming to earth meant that formerly pagan Europeans who were used to eating shellfish and pork before they converted could go ahead and ignore those restrictions if they felt like it. And the nobility could go around being adulterous as ever. And "theologians" could write long apologias justifying them.

But you're right, arguing theology with believers is useless. I have read a little about the history of the Bible, however, and wonder if you have, Ms Lissakay. About how errors in translation and transscribing, both inadvertent and deliberate, shaped how believers came to understand what they regard as the "authoritative" Bible. About what got in and what got left out, and who decided that, and why. (Hint: they were human beings. Worse, in many cases they were politicians.)

And it doesn't take a theologian to know that the the Jericho story, the Jonah story, and the Adam and Eve story are all, well, MYTHS. And the Book of Job? What the hell was that? A fable where God makes a cruel bet with Satan and a righteous man suffers unspeakably as a result?

And it doesn't take a th... (Below threshold)
galoob:

And it doesn't take a theologian to know that the the Jericho story, the Jonah story, and the Adam and Eve story are all, well, MYTHS. And the Book of Job? What the hell was that? A fable where God makes a cruel bet with Satan and a righteous man suffers unspeakably as a result?

This is my favorite Bible story: Ezekiel 23:20

Let's face it, the only thing Moses, Ezekiel, Jesus and Mohammed have on Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, Maria Devi Christos, David Koresh, Claude Vorilhon or Sun Myung Moon, is that they got there first and were among more primitive and less scientifically knowledgeable people.

It's all myths.

Spong has been about his ap... (Below threshold)
Jim Addison:

Spong has been about his apostasy for a very long time. That he was allowed to continue on this path without early rebuke and probably reassigned to a cloistered monastery - if the Anglicans even still have such things - illustrates the problem that Church been having over the last several decades.


Christian doctrine and Scriptures aren't so much subject to interpretation as the Stalinists would have us believe.

I see galoob has expanded his repertoire of areas in which he knows nothing but tells all to include Christianity. I applaud this - the closer he gets, the better his chances of getting it.

OK, then guys ... you tell ... (Below threshold)

OK, then guys ... you tell US what Romans 14 means. In fact, study the entire book of Romans and report back here on what you learn, OK? If you can find a different interpretation of it, by all means, explain it to us.

Or better yet, if it does indeed mean what it says - explain to us how you think God is wrong and that you know better. You can think of it as a rehearsal for when you get to do that for the Big Guy Himself.

"OK, then guys ... you t... (Below threshold)
914:

"OK, then guys ... you tell US what Romans 14 means. In fact, study the entire book of Romans and report back here on what you learn, OK?"


Dont expect any quick answers. Liberals are notorious slow leaners.

I cautioned you Lissakay, b... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I cautioned you Lissakay, but your effort is appriciated. If someone does not even understand what faith is, then they won't get it. Minds are closed and hearts are hardened. Good job though. Thanks. ww

Hey, ya got me, LissaKay. I... (Below threshold)
Bruce Henry:

Hey, ya got me, LissaKay. I'm not sure what that means. I guess that means I'm no theologian.

Only, I don't need to know all about phrenology to know it's bunk. Don't need to study the Book of Mormon to know Joseph Smith was a charlatan and that there was never an ancient Jewish civilization in North America. I don't need to read every word L. Ron Hubbard ever wrote to know he's a kook and Scientology is a scam. I mean, YOU know that, and I doubt you have read the complete works of L. Ron Hubbard, am I right?

It doesn't take a theologian to know that every word of the Bible is not necessarily literally true, as notSenator Kerry asserted. That was the point of my mockery of his comments.

I have no problem with religion, but I think it's funny when someone asserts that he, himself, is going to Heaven but "many" (who don't believe exactly as he does) are not. Who do these smug-ass Pharisees think they are?

So please, dispense with the "study the Bible and then get back to me" condescension. I don't have to study geology to know a divining rod ain't gonna find me water in a drought.




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