West's got some baggage. He was drummed out of the army for torturing prisoners in Iraq and narrowly escaped court-martial with an Article 15 and premature retirement. He probably feels the constant need to justify himself.

Chico, West has never denied his actions, and accepted the full responsibility for them.

He had a captured terrorist who knew about a plan to kill his men. West threatened to kill the terrorist, including firing his weapon into a bucket of sand, to convince the terrorist he was serious. The terrorist cracked, the attack was thwarted, and no Americans were harmed. And, for that matter, neither was the terrorist.

West knew he was breaking regulations by doing that, knew he was throwing his career away, and did so to save the lives of his men. He accepted that.

We need more men like West -- and fewer racist asshats like you who just can't stand that a black man could be a successful conservative.

J.

Yes, that's West's version of events leading to his cashiering. The Privacy Act prevents the Army from giving its version.

So, chico, based on absolutely nothing, you're calling a black man a liar?

You really are a hateful, racist bigot, aren't you?

J.

Jay Tea, I'd TELL you what Chico is--but it would result in instant banning.

It would be unChristian to call him/her/it bi-pedal feces, human in shape only, so I will refrain from calling him/her/it bipedal feces, as it would reflect poorly on the level of discourse here.

And I would further caution the rest not to describe him/her/it as an illegitimate afterbirth of a maggot. Such is not to be used here.

We, after all, must NOT sink to the level of the left.

wow, Chico just may be the dumbest troll in the history of Wizbang...and there's some stiff competition for the title!

Every...single...fact in the case of Colonel West's actions in saving the lives of his men is wide open...NOTHING is hidden. He saved the lives of his men, and then immediately reported his actions and resigned. He declared he would "walk thru Hell with a pail of gasoline" for his men.

Honor. Colonel, now Congressman, West has it in abundance...Chico never heard of it.

It's not a matter of lying, but almost everyone looks at themselves and their actions in the most favorable light, forgetting some embarrassing details.

Objectively, Gen. Odierno, a tough guy in the best sense, after hearing the facts by witnesses, immediately relieved West of command. West then took non-judicial punishment under Article 15, a $5000 fine and forced retirement. For those of you unfamiliar with the military justice system, he could have turned that down and demanded a court-martial, where he would have been judged by post-command lieutenant colonels and colonels. A military jury is allowed to consider operational necessity and the hugely mitigating circumstane of "saving his men's lives," if that was the case, and acquit him.

West took the Article 15 and retirement. Those are the facts of the case.

Rather than dispute anything that Rep. West said in the video, the asshat raises an attack on his military record, which West successfully answered in last November's campaign. The Koran is, at best, inconsistent and, at worst, a call for forced submission to its tenets, including Sharia law. I look forward to West's debate with the pro-Islam questioner.

Lest this devolve into a discussion of Col. West's actions, I would suggest that everyone concerned take under review the full account of his actions. You may Google it.

THEN you may better understand.

And yes, I'd pay money to see the Colonel rip this CAIR twit a new asshole in a debate.

Col. West will mop the floor with the CAIR shill, much like J Tea just trashed the troll de jur.

I seriously hope it's covered at least by CSpan1 or that it gets You Tubed.

I don't know why I'm getting the abuse.

It wasn't little Chico who fined West $5000 and ran his ass out of the Army upon threat of court-martial, it was General Ray Odierno. If you want to speciously call someone "racist," call the Big O racist.

To all that have served in combat, Col West is the officer that you would follow to He$$ and back. Now Obama? I wouldn't follow him to the ice cream store. Those that fight know the difference, so I say Chico what's your point.

Chico is the type of guy that would rather see people die than to in anyway possible get the info from one that knows who, where, and when. That is the worst type of cowardice just to watch others die because you can't bring yourself to do what it takes to stop it. Chico is a coward.

Chico,

If West Actions were truly the level you think that they were He would not have been allowed to take Non Judaical Punishment which is an Article 15.

Chico would you feel better if he gave the terrorist a lawyer the negotiated and while all this was going on American Soldiers died for your high ideals?

All that being said, Was anything that West said in error?

I don't know why I'm getting the abuse.

Of course you do. It's what you want, troll. Your first comment in this thread was an attack not on the subject at hand, but an attack against West for something that has nothing to do with his debate with CAIR.

galoob-

"I don't know why I'm getting the abuse."

Because you love it galoob.

Chico's one of those cowardly trolls on the payroll of Organizing for Aholes or Moron.org to defend Barry and to smear great patriots like Col. Alan West.

Chico would rather his mother die, than let Col. West scare a terrorist to get information to save her. Way to go Chicoputz. We point at, laugh at, and ridicule libtard regressives like you. Thanks for the entertainment value of your paid astroturf talking points.

Chico is the perfect asshat lib of the type I work with in a NJ State department.
PROCESS and BUREAUCRACY are FAR more important than getting the job done.
Chico, had Colonel West taken the Courts martial he might have NOT been given the benefit of the law you thought. He defended his men, and took the consequences.
You know, like a MAN.
"The measure of a man is taken when having risked it all on one rol of the dice and lost, picks up and moves on."

The point is that West has baggage from the disgrace of the end of Army career that leads him to have a simplistic and hostile view of Muslims.

Battalion commanders aren't relieved of command and given Article 15s every day, like PFC Schmuck is for failure to repair. It's a BIG thing.

So West can't accept the fact that he was turfed out at the command of professional officers. He's probably built psychological defences making himself a hero in his own mind fighting the totalitarian Muslim menace.

I find it "conduct unbecoming" for a member of Congress to be leading Two Minute Hate sessions against a religion. I had to admire the young Muslim guy who stood up for his beliefs, pointing out how Mary and Jesus were honored in the Koran, in the midst of all that hooting and hissing.

No, chico, the point is what West is saying and doing now. I understand that your bonus is contingent on derailing the discussion, but you'll just have to find a more honest way to make a buck.

I hear ACORN is looking to hire some folks to pimp for underage illegal aliens...

J.

Chico: "I had to admire the young Muslim guy who stood up for his beliefs, pointing out how Mary and Jesus were honored in the Koran"

The problem there, sir, is that the Koran does not honor Jesus and Mary:

First off, the Quran does not call the man 'Jesus', or any of the other names attributed to Christ by Christians or even Jews, but applies the fictitious name "Issa". It's as fake as if I decided to call the Buddha "Bubba".

Second, the Quran contradicts clear statements made by Christ in front of witnesses, and replaces them with claims by Mohammed that oh so conveniently support Islam. We are left to choose between statements supported by multiple witnesses' testimony, and the claims made a half millenia later by a man who was not there and rejected the evidence of people who were. That is great disrespect for Jesus and his teaching.

Third, the Quran demotes Christ to a rank below Mohammed, and the sum effect of Islam's teachings regarding women is undeniably an insult to women. That pretty much removes any claim that Mohammed meant to praise Mary.

Islam has some valid teachings, but to claim that the Quran does anything but lie about Jesus and Mary would be just another lie.

Chico,
Disgrace is OTH, BCD or DD. Any service member knows that.

He spent two minutes stating Facts the Muslim spent the time lying.
In Mulsim countries Jew and Christians are supposed to pay tithes.

Koran verse 009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Muslims so respect Jews and Christians if a Muslims converts they kill them.

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas [like-for-like punishment] for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Those are not made up it they are from the Islamic religious text.
Sharia Law is Islamic law that governs every aspect of Muslim life cause everyone else does not matter.

Bukhari Hadith Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukhari Hadith Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Verse:--"You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind." means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state, usually under the power of a single political person, faction, or class, recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.

Theocracy is a form of government in which a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.

So what did West say that was in error.

DJ,

Just to nitpick, I don't think your point (1) is correct...

A Comprehensive listing of References to Jesus in the Quran

Among the major world religions, Islam is the only non-Christian faith that recognizes the person of Jesus. Qur'an talks a great amount about Jesus. However, Jesus Christ is the most controversial personality in Islam. In the Qur'an, Jesus is referred to in over ninety verses in fifteen surahs. Islam corroborates that Jesus was born to a virgin, was sinless, performed miracles, and was superior to other prophets. Yet, Islam teaches that Jesus was no more than a prophet. It denies the central message of Christianity by denying Jesus' divinity, crucifixion, and resurrection.

The Quran has plenty of references to Jesus by name but it does not affirm the Deity of Christ. I wouldn't argue any of your other points- they are valid.

My point 1, Conservachef,is that the name used in the Quran, is "Issa", not "Jesus".

This is a point which, by itself, may not be important ("Issa" means "God Saves" in egyptian, just as "Jesus" means "God's Salvation", derived from "Yeshua"), although the name "Issa" appears to be a deliberate attempt to avoid using any Hebrew name .. which, considering Jesus' undeniable heritage, is a clear cheap shot.

DJ,

Again, sorry to nitpick, especially since I agree with your points about Islam. However, unless the translation is wrong, The Quran in fact, does refer to Jesus by name.

And I admit that I could be wrong simply because I'm reading an English translation of the Quran, instead of Arabic. But I would imagine that Quran.com would be accurate...

Conservachef,

The Koran uses the name "Issa" which (as DJ pointed out) is the Egyptian/Arabic translation of "God is Salvation" (a close translation of Yeshua/Joshua).

My name is Philip Snyder which comes from the Greek for "lover of horses" and the Dutch verb "to cut." Sould would an an English tome properly refer to me as "HorseLover Cutter?" I would submit that the English Tome would have alterier motives to refer to me in that manner.

I have two Qurans (don't ask). One printed in 1964, another in 1985. Different publishers, both use 'Issa' and not 'Jesus'. Mohammed did that on purpose, actually, because in his culture Jews were respected about as well as they are in Arab countries today.

Non-Arabic speakers arguing over the meaning of Arabic words, what's the point? Like virgins arguing about sex.

Yahweh, Allah, Dios, Gott, God, Jesus, Gesu, Issa, why make a big deal over minor differences?

English was not the language of Jesus or Mohammed, get it?

Chico, whatever you have to say about non-Arabic speakers does not change the fact that you are libtard asshat troll that we enjoy ridiculing.

By the way, the only disgrace about Col. West is the disgracing actions of a PC military that did not stand up for Col. Wests honorable and courageous actions. Only cowardly turds like you find it a disgrace, but I digress...

DJ/Phil,

Geez, did you guys even look a the link I provided? Search Quran.com for "Jesus" and you find 69 instances. For example:

2:87
And We did certainly give Moses the Torah and followed up after him with messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit. But is it [not] that every time a messenger came to you, [O Children of Israel], ...

2:253
... We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding ...

3:45
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

and for comparison...

3:39
... ): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Iesa (Jesus) , the Word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among ...

Quran.com (not me) uses Jesus. Not Issa. Not Odin God of Thunder.

I conceded that Issa may be the Arabic word for Jesus. However, in some verses the Quran (as I quoted above) uses Jesus, and some use Issa/Isea with Jesus in parentheses.

Anyway, I have other things to do. The Quran uses Issa in Arabic. I get that. The Quran, when translated into English, uses Jesus. Sorry I ever brought it up.

The problem, Conservachef, is that the site interprets the words, it does not do a direct translation. Hence the problem. Quran.com, like many Islamic sites seeking a western following, seems to use a 'Islam-lite' approach when translating the text of the Quran.

(I referenced the direct translation in my 642 comment, and noted the cultural implications of using/rejecting Hebrew words in the Quran).

In any case, we should leave off the stymology of words. We are confusing Chico (easy to do), but more to the point he thinks we will let him off the hook on his many logic fallacies and outright boorishness.

I respect Islam in the places where it teaches truth, and I respect and honor those who live in honest faith and reflect God's love in their words and deeds. But Chico's claim was simply a falsehood, perhaps mistaken because he does not understand how Islam degrades Christ by trying to make Him a puppet of Mohammed, and that is the main point of my comments.

I meant no offense to you, but I do insist that the actual wording is important in the Quran; context as well as the culture of the writer are important parts of the meaning.

The irony is that most of the things that people object to in "sharia" are directly from or rehashes of the Torah/Old Testament rules, for example stoning homosexuals and putting women in back. Islam is really just a plagiarism of Christianity as Christianity was of Judaism, each with changes in doctrine to benefit the new cult leaders, just like LDS or Branch Davidianism later on.

The difference is that more people calling themselves "Muslims" actually believe in that stuff than people calling themselves "Jews" or "Christians." In the west, people have pretty much given up on the old beliefs and pick and choose from scripture as from a cafeteria, in whatever way makes them feel good and lets them do what they want in the way of sex, greed, gluttony and boozing. Most Muslims do too, but a nut hard core of Talibans stick to the letter of Deuteronomy.

Chico

1. Christians and Jew are under different commandments.
The LAW was replaced by Grace.
Or have you not noticed that Christians do not practice not work from the Sun going down on the Sabbath to the SUn going up? There are 613 laws in the Old Testament . Now some will say that Christians take the Clause on Homosexuality from there. However it is found in the New testament 1st Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:28.

2. As for Jews I am sure you can have fine discussion on that with a Rabbi on those 613 commandments who has studied the Talmud.

Yet one does not see modern Cristian and Jew with a penchant for Terrorism? On the Whole we seem to be more tolerant.

Chico,

Again I ask you what did West say that was in error?

Again I ask you what did West say that was in error?

Islam is a "totalitarian, theocratic" system?

All religions are totalitarian and theocratic - theocratic literally means "rule by God" - you either follow and have a duty to impose on others the "God's law" of your choice, or you don't care and turn on the porn.

Fundamental Christianity and some kinds of Orthodox Judaism are similarly "totalitarian and theocratic" and follow the same rules as Sharia with regard to sex and women.

So what West said makes no sense.

Chico: "All religions are totalitarian and theocratic"

Really? You have a problem in your neighborhood with Quakers telling you to go to prayer services or they'll put you in jail?

You worry about Buddhist monks stopping you in the street and inspecting your clothing, and beating you senseless if you have a t-shirt mocking Karma?

You see roving bands of nuns telling parents they should kill their own children if the kids have sex?

Are the Methodists in your town scarier than the Hell's Angels? Do Crips and Bloods flee in fear when a group of Mormons show up?

The thing you miss - deliberately, it appears, Chico - is that Islam not only does things that no religion has been guilty of for hundreds of years, they do and promote heinous things that no other religion in memory has done.

Like mass murder of innocents for the 'crime' of believing something other than Islam;

Like 'honor killings' of children by parents for 'dishonor' to the faith;

Like mob killings without even the pretense of a trial.

Where have you been for the past two centuries, sir?

Right, DJ, Christians used to do a lot of killing in the name of God, but now mostly they don't give a shit and don't even go to church but a few times a year.

But most Muslims aren't fanatics, either. It's just that there are more right now that do get into that fanatic thing in some places.

You can go to Dubai, Indonesia, Egypt, Morocco, Kuwait, Qatar, Malaysia, Jordan, or Turkey and you won't see much evidence of "totalitarian, theocratic" Islam.

That's why West is full of crap, replaying his heroic struggle against the Muslims in his own mind. He wasn't sophisticated or well-balanced enough to perform as a combat leader. Again, that's not my judgment, but Gen. Odierno's judgment.

Chico,

Which countries are you referring to?
USA, Israel, Germany, UK France, Spain let throw Japan in there to.

Are any of them Totalitarian or Theocracy?

Saudi Arabia, Iran.
What is happening now in Egypt?

Name Fundamentalist Christian groups that control modern countries and enforce these laws.

You also know that the Islam changes many standards that were in the Bible to make it harder for women to defend themselves.

let Look at the Big Bad Jewish bible

But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out,but there was no one to save her,

Now let look that the Sainted Muslim country

An appeal court in Saudi Arabia has doubled the number of lashes and added a jail sentence as punishment for a woman who was gang-raped.

Let look at how good sweet Muslims treat a women

Kabul, Aug 10 (THAINDIAN NEWS) The Taliban in Afghanistan have executed a lady whom they accused of committing adultery. The Taliban carried out the execution on Saturday.

The woman - Sanam Gul who is also called Sanam Bibi was shot and killed on Saturday by a Taliban commander - Mohammad Yousuf. She was shot in the head leading to the instant death of the 47-year-old widow. Before being shot, the woman was also punished with 200 lashes.

Now if they were following Leviticus there should have been two people.

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20:10

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her"

So again what did West say in the exchange in 2011 is wrong?

Dude best be prepared for the mopping of the floor he is about to undergo at Rep. West's hands!

Rock on Col. West, rock on!

Oh yes, Chico, what's your POINT or do you even have one!?

Just the point on his head, Gayle.

Any bets as to how long he remains before he finally goes full leftard and has to be put down with the ban hammer like a rabid Chihuahua?

Egypt

Clashes that broke out when a Muslim mob attacked thousands of Christians protesting against the burning of a Cairo church killed at least 13 people and wounded about 140, security and hospital officials said Wednesday.

The Muslims torched the church amid an escalation of tensions between the two religious groups over a love affair between a Muslim and a Christian that set off a violent feud between the couple’s families. The officials said all 13 fatalities died of gunshot wounds.

Dubai

You could be sharing an apartment with a friend of the opposite sex. And the arrangement could be innocent, purely for financial reasons. But in the eyes of Sharia law you are committing an offence.More and more people are being punished because they claim they were unaware of the law and its clauses.

There are hundreds of cases such as these that emerge each year either from the police or the courts. An increasing number of men and women, who are not blood relatives nor legally married, and have shared a flat, room or even sat in tinted cars, are being jailed and deported, a lawyer said. These men and women have shared no relationship.

Dr Adel Khamis Al Mimari from Al Itazan Consultant and Advocates said they are being punished in accordance with Sharia law. The clause is known as “Tawajed” or “Tahseen Al Ma’asiya”. These couples have been punished under this clause: sharing a closed place and encouraging sin even though they shared no relationship.

He mentioned: “The bottom line is awareness. Many foreigners are not familiar with Sharia law and hence they are punished. If these couples go unnoticed, then there is no trouble. But if the authorities for some reason or another know they are sharing a ?closed space’ they can be punished. This is the law.”

Chico you were say?

Chico: Johnny's got some baggage. He was suspended from school for torturing another student and narrowly escaped total expulsion with a mark on his permanent record and forced restitution to the parents of the student. He probably feels the constant need to justify himself.

Jay: Johnny had cornered the student who knew about a plan to beat up his brother. Johnny threatened to give the student a wedgie, including flexing his muscles, flagrantly, to convince the student he was serious. The student cracked, the attack was thwarted, and Johnny's brother was not harmed. And, for that matter, neither was the student.

Johnny knew he was breaking the "no tolerance" school regulations by doing that, knew he was throwing a future career away in law enforcement, and did so to save his brother a severe beating. He accepted that.

Chico: Yes, that's Johnny's version of events leading to his suspension. The Privacy Act prevents the school from giving its version.

Jay: So, chico, based on absolutely nothing, you're calling a Johnny a liar?

Chico: [Random degradation of anyone or anything that he disagrees with rather than defend what HE believes in, all the while continuing to avoid the actual topic]
================
Chico, you really are a little tool, aren't you?

@Oyster

The problem with your analogy is that "Jay" wasn't there and doesn't really know what happened. Just like Jay here wasn't there in Iraq with West.

General Odierno talked to the guys who were there, relieved West of command, punished him and ran him out of the Army.

You and Jay choose to believe West. I choose to believe in the judgment of Gen. Odierno and the Army that West wasn't fit to command.

Dead Soldiers Good, Live Soldiers Bad.
I rather have someone be Politically incorrect and save soldiers lives than by the book and have them dead. He did what he had to do then took his lumps and retired. The act was not that horrible. Otherwise he would have gotten an Other Than Honorable, Bad Conduct or Dishonorable Discharge, he would not have been offered the option.

We saw what happens at Fort Hood when the Army get all touchy and cares more about public relations than protecting the lives of Soldiers.

The authority for commanders to give an Article 15 is found in what is called Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. An Article 15 is considered non-judicial punishment, meaning that it is not considered a judicial proceeding. Non-judicial punishment is a military justice option available to commanders. It permits commanders to resolve allegations of minor misconduct against a soldier without resorting to higher forms of discipline, such as a court-martial. The decision to impose an Article 15 is completely the commander's. A soldier may, however, refuse to accept the Article 15 and instead demand trial by court-martial.

Mr. Puckett said the Tikrit hearing exposed a weakness in coalition interrogation techniques. He said released Iraqis promptly tell other Saddam loyalists that if taken into custody they do not have to talk.

“All of the intelligence witnesses regularly expressed the fact that detainees bragged they know they don’t have to talk because we can’t do anything to them,” Mr. Puckett said. “The bad Iraqis are ID’d by human sources. The Iraqis who are ID’d as bad guys and questioned all know we can’t touch them. We can’t even so much as threaten them.”