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Birth -- And Death -- Of A Notion

OK, President Obama released his "long form" birth certificate this week. Apparently the polling that had been showing the issue as a plus for Obama finally turned, and became enough of negative that he decided it was time to put an end (mostly) to it. I say "mostly" because there will always be enough nuts to keep it somewhat alive, but this should shut down most of those who've been pushing it.

But while it answers a lot of questions, it also raises quite a few points. For a couple of years, we've been told that Obama released all that was sufficient; Hawaii's privacy laws blocked the release of the "long form" to the public. Not even Obama himself could get past that law.

Well, that turned out to be a crock. Obama (through his lawyer) sent in a request for the form on Friday, April 22; it was returned on Monday, April 25 -- one business day later. All it took was the right letter, and -- poof! -- there it was.

And yes, the birther nuts are already screaming "fake" at the form Obama released. I've tried to avoid the details, but a few have come out -- and they're so laughably absurd that they're readily dismissed with the slightest application of common sense.

"The photocopy shows a curve, as it is from a bound book, but the security paper patterns don't curve! It's a fake!"

"Security paper," as we know it today, didn't exist in 1961, when Obama was born. So, obviously, the copy Obama presented was printed or copied on to contemporary security paper.

"His mother's first name is written above the signature! It was added after!"

We already know that Stanley Ann Dunham Obama didn't like her first name -- she went by "Ann" most of her life. Here's how it probably played out: she was presented with the form, and asked to sign it. She signed it as she always did, and then was told it had to be her full, legal name. So, instead of getting a whole new form, she adds the disliked "Stanley" above the rest.

"The numbers don't match up with other certificates! They're slightly off!"


The bureaucrats who process these forms and assign the numbers could have easily shuffled them. The numbering is in the right general sequence. This is precisely the sort of thing that prompted the phrase "good enough for government work."

"The date in box 20 is in an entirely different font and size than the rest!"

The date was applied with a rubber stamp, not a typewriter.

"His father's race is listed as 'African,' not 'Negro!'"

His father was, literally and legally, an African -- a native-born citizen of Kenya. At that point, a lot of people drew a distinction between American blacks and actual, African blacks.

"It's not a 'Birth Certificate,' but a 'Certificate of Live Birth!'"


It's got the words "birth" and "certificate" in the title. Good enough for me. Plus, it attests that the baby survived, and was not a stillbirth.

So, it's over. Donald Trump called Obama's bluff, and took away the hole card he and his supporters have been using for a couple of years to keep the whole birther mess alive, so they can paint a lot of his critics as nuts. And yeah, I do put the blame on Obama and his supporters -- here's a bit of proof: noted Obama rumpswabs CNN and MSNBC gave the issue tons and tons more coverage than noted Obama critic Fox News.

At this point, the "birthers" are reminding me more and more of the "Bush stole the 2000 election" nutjobs who kept on re-fighting that election long after it was over, and still bitterly cling to that delusion over ten years later. The most important thing now is not to fight over how to undo the 2008 election, but to focus on defeating Obama in 2012.

And birthers: you're not helping. The most useful thing you can do is to simply STFU. Stop giving them an excuse to dismiss all of us as whackjobs.

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Comments (74)

I've got my son's birth cer... (Below threshold)
jim m:

I've got my son's birth certificate. It says "Certificate of Live Birth" on it. Anyone wanting to come here and tell me that it's a fake and he wasn't born when and where it says he was can come on over an meet Mr crowbar.

Enough already. The dems have kept this alive for 3 years (CNN and MSNBC have devoted far more time to this issue than any other news outlets). Stop letting them distract from the real issues at hand and force them to deal with the economy.

Now Barry can get back to i... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Now Barry can get back to improving his golf game.

I suggest every interested ... (Below threshold)
Oldpuppymax:

I suggest every interested party got to the following link:

http://thedailypen.blogspot.com/2011/04/out-of-order-obamas-non-sequential.html

Then, make up your own mind.

Im not a birther, never hav... (Below threshold)
Pretzel_Logic:

Im not a birther, never have been, the newspaper clippings were good enough for me, but this is compelling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7s9StxsFllY#at=369

Max:"... (Below threshold)

Max:

"The numbers don't match up with other certificates! They're slightly off!"

The bureaucrats who process these forms and assign the numbers could have easily shuffled them. The numbering is in the right general sequence. This is precisely the sort of thing that prompted the phrase "good enough for government work."

It's gotten to the point where the "he wasn't born here" explanations are almost infinitely more convoluted than the "he was born here" explanations. Time to hang it up.

J.

Occam's razor is very usefu... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Occam's razor is very useful in this case.

Is it more likely that this is an elaborate fake and Barry has spent he last 2-3 years concealing the fact that there is no Birth Certificate and that the conspiracy is so successful there have been NO leaks from the state of Hawaii? Or is more likely that obama is pathologically secretive about his past and present dealings and refuses to allow people to see any documents from his past or even witness a presentation of an award for transparency?

I think there is quite a lot of evidence for choice number two.

"the copy Obama presente... (Below threshold)
PBunyan:

"the copy Obama presented was printed or copied on to contemporary security paper."

A minor point, but the "security paper" appears to have been digitally added, not a result of printing or photocopying. Hence the digital document posted on the Whitehouse website appears to be layered.

I posted this in another thread, but I still believe it to be true:

I think they intentionally put just enough weirdness in the document (the layers that can be disassembled in illustrator) to keep the nuttier types going on this while satisfying the people who aren't quite so nutty, but were starting to doubt thanks to all the recent chatter. Win-win for team Marx.

Jay,Are you purpos... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Jay,

Are you purposely tweaking?

I mean "Birth of Nation' when talking about our first black president?
UGH!!!!

J,I'm not a birthe... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

J,

I'm not a birther either. Or at least, I havn't been. Ive been curious as to the release of his birth certificate so trolled several sites to see how the birthers would react to it, pretty much knowing that the hard core birthers wouldn't really accept anything.

But honestly, I havn't seen most people talking about the problems you mentioned above. Ive seen them in comments and such, but the sites ive been to havn't focused on those aspects that you focused on.

In other words, it seems like your response to the birthers is a straw man response.

Here is my only issue with the birth certificate. Posted on the internet (I have it on my facebook but cannot get there right now) is a side by side post of Obama's Birth Certificate. According to the post, the document given by the White House is a layered document. It's all technical jargon of which I understand none.

Now, maybe i'm being duped because I don't understand the issues involved in Adobe and Illustrator and i'm not a technofile.

Perhaps you could shed some light on this criticism?

Because my expertise comes with fraud documents. Ive worked in Immigration for 15 years now and the example they show is exactly what ive seen thousands of times on birth certificates when they are altered.

Granted, i'm talking about actual paper birth certificates that people have presented at the border, not ones posted online.

But, i'd honestly like to see someone address this. As ive got no desire to become a birther. But I don't know what to do with this information.

Here is a link to what i'm talking about:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=185094

Jay, I think you know more about these computer programs than I do. So I value your opinion on this criticism.

Was the document altered? If not, where are these guys wrong about putting it into illustrator and seeing those problems with it?

BTW, i'll try and find the ... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

BTW, i'll try and find the other link later today to show what i'm talking about with the side by side comparison.

Just dont' have time at the moment.

Man, triple post!S... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

Man, triple post!

Sorry about this, found the link I was referring to.

Here is the side by side I was talking about.

http://bryankeithnixon.com/?p=103

This is the only problem I have with the birth certificate.

But I have no way to know if this guy, Bryan Keith Nixon is telling the truth or not.

Do you have an explanation for the side by side he posts, Jay?

After all, Jay, it's PERFEC... (Below threshold)
Oldpuppymax:

After all, Jay, it's PERFECTLY NORMAL BEHAVIOR to spend MILLIONS in court to keep your birth records hidden, only to publicize them a few years later. I bet LOADS of people have done that...right?? So why on EARTH should any questions be raised?!

Bunyan, I dunno. I think th... (Below threshold)

Bunyan, I dunno. I think they're stupid enough to do that, but I dunno if they're smart enough to think of it.

Max, Baggi: let me repeat myself:

You're not helping.

hcddbz: Maybe, just a little. Like I said on my Superman piece, I have a puckish side. I enjoy occasionally poking these things with sticks.

J.

Time to move on. Nothing to... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Time to move on. Nothing to see here. The birthers will start looking like the TXANG nuts that tried so hard to prove Bush didn't serve. All nuts. Different tree. ww

I tend to agree with jim m.... (Below threshold)
Hank:

I tend to agree with jim m....

"Or is more likely that obama is pathologically secretive about his past and present dealings and refuses to allow people to see any documents from his past or even witness a presentation of an award for transparency?"

And yet, the man who refuses to release anything wrote 2 books about himself.

This is one strange dude.

Given the article at <a hre... (Below threshold)

Given the article at http://thedailypen.blogspot.com/2011/04/out-of-order-obamas-non-sequential.html, my comment would be the following

Given that he was born on the evening of Friday August 4, and the document was signed by the mother on August 7, and the doctor on August 8, it would seem that he indeed was probably born in Hawaii. I do not think that a newborn would be taken by airplane to Hawaii before any registration of birth had occurred. It does seem that the mother could have insisted on using a midwife instead of going to the hospital or insisted on going home as soon as possible. Given that this would be just "the way things are" he may not even have been told the story.

For example, someone may not be told the story of how his mother got to the hospital unless it was a "family history" or an unusual event. In that case, the only way he might know where he was "born" would be from the birth certificate.

I am of the opinion it is r... (Below threshold)
retired military:

I am of the opinion it is real.

Even if it was faked per the law discussed in the other thread it appers that Obama meets the definiton of natural born citizen.

His mother was a citizen. His father wasnt but since his father was a bigamist IMO (and given we are talking 1961 here most likely in the opinions of the writers of the law) that makes Obama an illegitimate chid. Per the statue quoted, illegitimate children were citizens if their mothers were citizens even if born outside the US.

Thought the issue was dead?... (Below threshold)
914:

Thought the issue was dead? If the document was altered at all it is null and void.

Thats all

Damnit Jay it was obviously... (Below threshold)
Eric:

Damnit Jay it was obviously typed in Microsoft Word.

...and then faxed from a Ki... (Below threshold)

...and then faxed from a Kinko's in Texas, no doubt, Eric...

J.

JT @ 5,Jim M is ri... (Below threshold)
Rodney Graves:

JT @ 5,

Jim M is right @ 6, Occam's razor pertains.

The folks who are emotionally invested in this will not let it go. There will be no convincing them.

Jay wrote;You'r... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

Jay wrote;

You're not helping

That's disappointing. I actually was hoping someone with the technical no how would offer a counter to the information posted at this link:

http://bryankeithnixon.com/?p=103

Rodney writes

The folks who are emotionally invested in this will not let it go. There will be no convincing them.

What of those of us who have never been "birthers" and don't want to be?

I try and follow the information where it leads and use the knowledge I have to make decisions.

For example, having worked in immigration for so long, I know that the arguments about his not being a US Citizen due to his mom's age and his dad not being a citizen, etc, are all stupid. When you're born in Hawaii, that's the United States, thanks to the law of Jus Soli, he's a Natural Born US Citizen.

And of course, Jay's arguments above are all the same arguments i'd make. They are silly and illogical. I'm sure every single birth certificate out there has little marks that we could analyze into oblivion.

Even when this certificate came out, I found myself doing the same thing. But after careful consideration and looking over the facts, everything appears as you would expect it to appear on a normal birth certificate. As ive said, ive seen thousands upon thousands of them working for Immigration on the southern border.

So, i'm past all that.

And i'm left with something I have no expertise and knowledge of, found at the link above.

What's the occam's razor explanation for that?

Baggi,The layering... (Below threshold)
Faith+1:

Baggi,

The layering effect shown in the website link you provided can reproduced with just about any paper using default settings in Illustrator using standard "Optimize for Scanned PDF" in Reader. A common process used by many and requires only a few mouse clicks.

So, you asked for Occam's Razor....what is more likely--an effect produced through standard actions with default setting sin software, or an elaborate hoax involving hundreds to cover it up and lts of complicated manipulation?

I am no Obama fan. didn't vote for him, won't vote him in the future. I think he is and will continue to be a disaster for this country, but people pushing this issue are actually doing more to get him re-elected by being so consistently and persistently stupid about this point. This is RatherGate on steroids in the level of ridiculousness.

Faith, Thanks for ... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

Faith,

Thanks for that answer.

Maybe Jay chose not to give it because he didn't know it, or didn't want to research it. I read through the comments at that link, also, and see that someone named Jamie came up with a similar answer.

I also noticed that the author, Mr. Nixon, didn't bother to answer Jamie, which is pretty damning if you ask me.

I'm satisfied and I appreciate you're going the extra mile to satisfy me.

I'm not a birther. The birt... (Below threshold)
Alan:

I'm not a birther. The birth certificate has never been the issue to me (except why he kept it hidden for so long).

There is however the issue of his adoption by a Mr Soetoro and his living in Indonesia. Does the birth certificate get a note attached when that happens? His name would have been legally changed, right?

The real issue to me is his citizenship after adoption - Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship, so he would have been an Indonesian citizen. Being born in the USA he would have had the option of choosing US citizenship at the age of majority, 18. But he only had 6 months to do so or it was forfeit.

He tells us in his own book that he travelled to Pakistan at age 20. Apparently you could not do so on a US passport at that time.

It leaves a question: did he lose his US citizenship?

And one of the answers to this is on what scholarship did he attend Occidental College? Was it a scholarship for foreign students?

My evil thinking goes like this: he goes to college on a scholarship for foreign students. Now that he's in the USA he brings out his birth certificate and gets a US passport etc. Never mind that legally he forfeited his citizenship (its possible it was inadvertent, its not like the State Dept sends you a notice about these things).

I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on all this, but the fact that he's pathologically secretive about it makes you wonder. And maybe that's why he's pathological about it. It introduces distraction - and you should always be watching what the other hand is doing.

Whatever.All I kno... (Below threshold)
TexBob:

Whatever.

All I know is that I'm really enjoying working for half of what I used to and I really love the high gas and food prices these days. Oh, yeah, I especially love the 40% increase in health insurance premiums the Obamacare triggered.

I'm just loving it so much I can't wait to see what Barry has in store for me next....

/sarc

...and then faxed ... (Below threshold)
Eric:
...and then faxed from a Kinko's in Texas, no doubt, Eric...

Well, Obama's mother came from Wichita, the Rathergate documents were faxed from Waco. Both start with a W. Like in George W. Bush.

Coincidence?

I'm only asking questions.

But, Karl Rove you magnificent bastard, I read your book.

Barry is a fraud with or wi... (Below threshold)
914:

Barry is a fraud with or without a BC.. Just can't understand the cover-up though?

Only makes sense if we are believe he never heard a sermon given by Jebidiah Wright.

My issue with the certifica... (Below threshold)
Hawk:

My issue with the certificate is that even if you accept it as legitimate and unaltered it is still not an acceptable form of id. This is because it lacks a registrar's seal. Obama could not even use this document as proof of citizenship to apply for a passport. Here is a link to the State Department website that specifies acceptable forms of id for proof of citizenship.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html#step3first

I just wish all this stuff ... (Below threshold)
Rich:

I just wish all this stuff could be set aside till after we get rid of him in 2012. Then everyone can finally get as crazy as they want about his life without all the excess drama affecting our government problems.

I'm just loving it so mu... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

I'm just loving it so much I can't wait to see what Barry has in store for me next....

Probably free colonoscopies next time and EVERY time you fly, courtesy of the TSA, TexBob....

The Founding Fathers did no... (Below threshold)
Pile of Pooh:

The Founding Fathers did not nail this issue down tightly enough, so it's essentially an unenforceable stricture of the Constitution in the lack of clear and incontestable evidence. Remember that the burden of proof is on the accuser; if you're going to claim that he is not a natural-born United States citizen, you must provide absolute proof of that fact. Lack of evidence is the problem of the prosecution.

What I really dislike about this entire issue is the fact that many on the Right are letting the Left play the tune of the jig. The leftist press and their lackeys in the blogosphere (or is that the other way round nowadays?) engaged in what's known as "discrediting by association" when the birth certificate issue first started to gain traction. They coined the term "birther" -- in very premeditated fashion -- to describe people who doubted Obama was a legitimate and legal candidate. This was to associate that movement with the "Truthers" -- who both the Left and Right agree are total whackjobs. It effectively marginalized the entire idea from the beginning. While I rather admire it as a socio-political maneuver, I am highly disappointed that so many conservatives are playing along, whether consciously or not.

In the end, however, it doesn't really matter. Barack Obama is not qualified to be President of the United States of America. Whether this is due to a dubious proof of birth or his dubious political ideas is of no moment. He must be defeated at the polls in 2012 -- legally, legitimately, and very soundly. Because if we get another four years of Barry, it won't matter one whit whether he or anyone else in this country possesses a legitimate birth certificate.

America as we know it won't... (Below threshold)
Caesar Augustus:

America as we know it won't survive another four years of Obama, regardless whether he was born in Hawaii, Kenya, Kansas, Oz, somewhere else, or even Uranus.

If conservatives would spend 1/10th the effort voting this miscreant out of office as they do obsessing over his place of birth then we might be able to avoid that calamity.

As I stated in another thre... (Below threshold)
retired military:

As I stated in another thread. WIth the Resources avaiable to a political party who controls the WH and at least one branch of congress forging a world class forgery of a BC is childs play. Care would be taken especially after getting burned on the TX NG papers.

This issue is a nonwinner, and has been since Obama won the nomination the first time.

Of the hardcore birthers I would say that less than 1% are motivated by race (vs what the dem MSM report). Probably 90%+ are motivated by abject rejection of Obama's policies and the easiest LEGAL way to get Obama out of office is to prove that he isnt eligible. The other 9 % or so are folks to whom the legal ramifications (constitutional eligiblity) matters. THose numbers are purely BOGSATT (bunch of guys sitting around a table talking) numbers but are probably closer to the truth than conspiracy theory crowd (if you hold the document under unltraviolet light for 5 seconds in a full moon at 87 degrees you will see a slight discoloration of the 9 in the year) is.

This isnt like Obama says it is a real typed document from 1961 and you type the information into MS word straight out of the box and it lines up perfectly.

JT, Please don't bring this... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

JT, Please don't bring this up again. It is like an article on Palin that draws out the left wing nuts. This whole thing is not worth the time to think it through either way. ww

You don't loose citizenship... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

You don't loose citizenship at birth unless it unless an affirmative action is taken by the Citizen.

I really don't care where h... (Below threshold)
yttik:

I really don't care where he was born. Let's deport him anyway and let immigration sort it out.

Rather then his birth records, I think we should focus on his job record as president. It stinks. Where the president was born is not nearly as important as trying to figure out how to stop from having to write an obituary for America.

"Stop giving them an excuse... (Below threshold)
yttik:

"Stop giving them an excuse to dismiss all of us as whackjobs"

Well, I wouldn't blame the people or try to imply they shouldn't be asking questions. I mean, are we supposed to be afraid of being called "whack jobs" and just go back to being called "racist teabaggers"??

Unless you salute this President's agenda and constantly stroke his ego, they're going to try and label and dismiss you. People shouldn't be afraid of that, that's just business as usual.

"Remember that the burde... (Below threshold)
Baggi:

"Remember that the burden of proof is on the accuser; if you're going to claim that he is not a natural-born United States citizen, you must provide absolute proof of that fact. Lack of evidence is the problem of the prosecution."

This is and isn't true. It's true if you are here, present in the United States, and someone is accusing you of not being a citizen.

However, this is not true if you are attempting to make entry into the United States.

A lot of people do not realize this but border law has been well established via the Supreme Court throughout the years.

If you are attempting to make admission (used to be called entry) into the United States, the burden of proof is on you, not on the government, to prove that you are admissible to the United States.

Weird, eh?

Is the B.C. a fake???... (Below threshold)
mag:

Is the B.C. a fake???

I know for sure that Obama the man is a fake.

Yeah, you're right, Jay. A... (Below threshold)

Yeah, you're right, Jay. Asking questions about this form is stupid and doesn't help. If only people had listened to wisdom like yours back when that memo about GWB's TANG service came out. Think of how dumb the questions about that were and how they didn't help, either.

By the way, I'm no birther, but then I don't unquestioningly swallow things that are shoved in my face with a "There, I told you so!", either.

The salient point raised by... (Below threshold)
Oldflyer:

The salient point raised by the birth certificate will never be raised publicly. Considering his birth date, his mother's birth date, and the marriage date, it appears that his mother was quite possibly 17 years old, and not married to the 25 year old sire, when BHO was conceived.

Where I came from that was called stautory rape; and it was a crime.

Where I came from ... (Below threshold)
Where I came from that was called stautory rape; and it was a crime.

So arrest his dad.

I have read numerous times ... (Below threshold)
mag:

I have read numerous times in the 50's and 60's, that many a white communist father would offered their young daughters to black men to win them over to the communist party. Could this have been the case?

Obama sure came from a disfunctional family.

Burden of proof? Balderdas... (Below threshold)
Oldflyer:

Burden of proof? Balderdash! Frequent mistake, or deliberate tactic, attempting to apply the requirements for conviction in a court of law to a general situation.. I would argue strenuously that in the case of an election to public office, the onus is on the office seeker to prove eligibility.

We frankly we see similar attempts to confuse rights and privileges; e.g., with respect to abortion, collective bargaining, etc.

Don't be stupid Jacob. The... (Below threshold)
Oldflyer:

Don't be stupid Jacob. The point is that this little embarrassment could explain why he tried to keep it hidden.

There had to be a reason. I do not buy for a moment that it was some grand plot to sucker Republicans. This gang can't even keep their stories straight from one news cycle to the next.

Oops, Jason is the one who ... (Below threshold)
Oldflyer:

Oops, Jason is the one who needs to wake up.

Re#44. No one needed to "w... (Below threshold)
PBunyan:

Re#44. No one needed to "win" Barack Obama Sr. "over to the Communist Party", he was firmly in that camp all along. Most likely why young Stanely Ann was so attracted to him.

From Bryan Keith Nixon's bl... (Below threshold)
Sky Captain:

From Bryan Keith Nixon's blog:

http://bryankeithnixon.com/?p=131#more-131

Somebody at the White House must have decided to "make it look better", resulting in a pdf with edits and layers.
The WH released pdf is thus a fraud on the media and the American people.

The high-res original from ABC news -

http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/ap_obama_certificate_dm_110427.pdf

- lacks the added stuff (like the green hatched security paper effect) that rendered it a fraud.

Case closed people!
It's just the usual amateur crap from the White House staff.

my take is that the origina... (Below threshold)
Jeff:

my take is that the original was printed onto security paper and had more on it than just the Obama record ... so they scanned it (notice the left side page curving away) pasted the scan onto a security watermark image and lined up the watermarks ... then printed the whole thing up for signature ...

alot depends on what form the original was in ... hardcopy, scanned or microfiche ...

my bet it was fiche ... printed on security paper because the watermarks in the final document curve back with the scanned image (left side) ...

Of course the important point is that there is an original document ...

Just to be clear, the White... (Below threshold)
Sky Captain:

Just to be clear, the White House DID release a phony document.

It wasn't necessary to do so, but they did anyway.

And Obama needs to take ownership and answer for it.

So both sides of Obama's fa... (Below threshold)
mag:

So both sides of Obama's family were entralled with communism...how nice...and 52% voted him president of the USA.

OK.Occam's Razor d... (Below threshold)
DJ Drummond:

OK.

Occam's Razor didn't do it for some folks.

Time for DJ's Chainsaw:

[*] Mr. Obama has already won the Democratic Party nomination, then the 2008 General Election for President of the United States.

[*] There is no legal prcedent for impeaching a sitting President on the basis of his place of birth.

[*] There are no witnesses or documents in support of a birth outside the United States.

[*] There is documentary evidence that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii, supported by the contemporaneous testimony of relatives.

[*]Even if Federal Judge Kray Zanzibar Burther decided there was grounds to declare Obama a non-citizen, there is no statute in place which would void his election to office

[*] Even if the case were filed and appealed to the United States Supreme Court, there is no possibility the case would be heard, let alone rendered against Obama

[*] Even if all of previous were thrown out and Obama was declared a non-citizen, the result would be President Biden.

It's not just over, it never had a chance in the first place.

Where I came from ... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:
Where I came from that was called stautory rape; and it was a crime.

Treu but in Hawaii age of consent is 16 now. It was raised from 14 in 2001 and they add the 5 year difference between ages.

The age difference was public record. Hell it was played up in the Time magazine and BHO book.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1729524-1,00.html
She was young white girl in love with Child like black men depicted in movie, who marred 3 months pregnant.
Of course they met in Russian class.

Amen, DJ.Also:... (Below threshold)
PBunyan:

Amen, DJ.

Also:

[*] There is no way to un-spend the trillions of dollars his corrupt administration wasted.

Oldflyer: I do ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Oldflyer: I do not buy for a moment that it was some grand plot to sucker Republicans

It is no grand strategy, many GOPers were so easily convinced, that Obama is an illegimate occupier of the White House. Trump is playing them, like a carvival barker. Everyone is hearing what they want to hear. They don´t need evidence.

Jay (partly answered this too )And birthers: you're not helping. The most useful thing you can do is to simply STFU. Stop giving them an excuse to dismiss all of us as whackjobs.

45% of Republicans still believe Obama was born in another country, or did last week according to the NYTimes/ CBS poll. His eighth month old pregnant mother was secretly shipped half way around the world from Hawaii, so that Obama could have the dubious privilege of being born in colonial Kenya for what earthly reason, certainly not for obsetrics or citizenship, and then shipped back again to apppear in Washington State within weeks, with his mother. Give me a break. Obama has for two years put up with this idiocy..

"Whack jobs" doesn´t adequately describe or define the 45 plus% of Republicans who believe this nonsense, and still are clinging to it, judging by many comments.

Even if all of previous ... (Below threshold)

Even if all of previous were thrown out and Obama was declared a non-citizen, the result would be President Biden.

DJ, you had me right up to the last item. At this point, I'm not convinced that "President Biden" would necessarily be worse.

J.

What's your source, Crickmo... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:

What's your source, Crickmore? Same place you got your facts on the 2008 Rep National convention?

Among Republicans, 33 perce... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Among Republicans, 33 percent said Mr. Obama was born in the U.S., and 22 percent said they did not know.(45% said outside the U.S.) Source CBS News.

It that more comforting for you, SCSIwuzzy?

Apparently another portion ... (Below threshold)
Dodo David:

Apparently another portion of the birther hoax lives on. For example:

After all, Jay, it's PERFECTLY NORMAL BEHAVIOR to spend MILLIONS in court to keep your birth records hidden, only to publicize them a few years later. I bet LOADS of people have done that...right?? So why on EARTH should any questions be raised?!

If you are going to claim that President Obama spent millions of dollars to keep his birth record hidden, then the decent thing would be for you to provide evidence supporting your claim. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe such a claim.

Of course the above-quoted claim is false. Hawaii state law prevented the public from having access to President Obama's "long form" birth certificate. So, President Obama didn't need to spend any money in order to keep his "long form" certificate out of public view.

Also, the "short form" birth certificate is sufficient legal evidence of the President's place of birth, and thus the President had no need to make public the long form. He finally did so in order to prove that Donald Trump and his ilk were in the wrong.

[FWIW, I am not a supporter of President Obama.]

Jay,You do know mo... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

Jay,

You do know most of the evidence for all of this came from Democrats.
1. Hillary raised the issue
2. A former Hillary Staffer was the one to bring the first law suit.
3. It was quote (mis)attributed translated to Obama's Grandmother that he was born in Kenya. She said she was present in Kenya when Obama was born in the USA.
4. Was Obama wife who said she visited his family in Kenya. (but we knew the family did not like him dating a white women so why would he take her to see them?)

Who kicked up all the questions in January why it was Chris Matthews
The it was CBS polls hoping to paint Tea Party folks but they found it was gaining tractions with independents.
Next was the commie Governor of Hawaii.

Notice the lack of any big name talk radio host?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSnTLV235Fk

Last was Trump who had 200 investigators who could not do the Job that Aaron Klein did back in January. This show Trump is a blow hard. Also look at the fun Jim X, RM and I had talking about the INA 1952. He could have had a real debate using immigration law and the founding documents.

One silver lining in this w... (Below threshold)
PBunyan:

One silver lining in this whole bizzare cloud is that lately it seems the blogs-- both posts and comment secations-- have been littered with variations of: "I don't support Obama, but..."

I always enjoy reading that. Almost makes me wonder: Who does anymore?

Jay,The True Death o... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:
At this point, I'm not c... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

At this point, I'm not convinced that "President Biden" would necessarily be worse.

I think, Jay Tea, that he'd suffer a 'Come to Jesus' moment... or a heart attack, depending - once he realized that it was HIS ass in the hot seat.

But I'm starting to think that we need to just take Washington and wall it off from the rest of the country. You want to be a politician? Campaign all you want, and if you get elected then you get dropped down the wall to the insane asylum with the regularly scheduled food and water. 'Cause there's something seriously wrong with someone who believes that only THEY know how to run the country.

My question is why did he n... (Below threshold)
epador:

My question is why did he not have a birth certificate to release on his own? Ihave several originals and copies for myself andy kids.

crocksomore-"45% o... (Below threshold)
914:

crocksomore-

"45% of Republicans still believe Obama was born in another country, or did last week according to the NYTimes/ CBS poll. His eighth month old pregnant mother was secretly shipped half way around the world from Hawaii"


So? Barry believes there are 57 States that make up the US. No suspicion there is there Crockmore.


This poll was con... (Below threshold)
SCSIwuzzy:


This poll was conducted among a random sample of 1,224adults nationwide, interviewed by telephone April 15-20, 2011. The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus three percentage points. The error for subgroups is higher. An oversample of Republicans was also conducted for this poll, for a total of 543 interviews among this group. The results were then weighted in proportion to the average party distributions in previous 2011 CBS News and CBS News/New York Times Polls and in the random sample in this poll. The margin of error for Republicans is plus or minus four percentage points.

And neither the NYT nor CBS have ever displayed any bias or dishonesty when advancing the cause...

And neither the NYT nor ... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

And neither the NYT nor CBS have ever displayed any bias or dishonesty when advancing the cause. no have the birthers. When you take your lead from Hillary Clinton's campaign team you are asking for trouble. The people in the GOP should know better.

Obama said that 57 states see quote and how tired he is when he should have said 47.".one left to go"... I wanted to go to Alaska and Oregon but my staff would not allow me to go". He was obvious tired and thinking of of fifty, subtracting three at the same time so he said fifty seven. I do the same think when Im typing on a notebook at five oclock in the morning.

Well,it didn't take long fo... (Below threshold)
Dodo David:

Well,it didn't take long for FOX News to put another nail in the lid of the birther coffin.

From FOXNews.com:

It didn’t take long for some of President Obama’s doubters to claim the long-awaited birth certificate posted online by the White House on Wednesday had been altered or might be a fake.

But a leading software expert says there’s no doubt about its authenticity, and he dismisses claims of fraud as flat-out wrong.

The doubters have latched onto the idea that Adobe Illustrator — the premier program for computer graphic artists — “reveals” evidence of document manipulation in the Obama birth certificate. They note Illustrator reveals nine separate layers of the document, and claim it’s “proof” the file has been altered.

But that’s not so, says Jean-Claude Tremblay, a leading software trainer and Adobe-certified expert, who has years of experience working with and teaching Adobe Illustrator.

“You should not be so suspicious about this,” Tremblay told FoxNews.com, dismissing the allegations.

By the way, Obama's grandmother in Africa did not say that Obama was born in Kenya. CNN reporter Ed Hornick reports the following:

Trump makes the claim that Obama's stepgrandmother in Kenya, Sarah Obama, said in an interview that he was born in Kenya. But the interview was done by a man characterized as a “street preacher” through a translator and there appears to be confusion over her answer.

The translator then came back and said Sarah Obama was saying that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

As often as bithers posting here have repeated gossip, rumors and hearsay that have been debunked, if I didn't know better I'd think I was reading Daily Kos.

Steve CrickmoreREf p... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Steve Crickmore
REf post 68.

Do you think that same theory might explain some of Bush's misspeaks?

My my say that to folks on the left and watch the long knives come out. I think it is plausible for your scenario. The thing is the left doesnt accept such plausibility when it happens to someone on the right.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. But the left wants its cake and to eat it too.


Epadour"My questio... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Epadour

"My question is why did he not have a birth certificate to release on his own? Ihave several originals and copies for myself andy kids"

Well You generally have copies of BC because at sometime in the past it is part of the job interview process.

Name one job that Barry has had in the past 25 years where you had to go through an official interviewing process and fill out paperwork for it.

RM, The one where ... (Below threshold)
hcddbz:

RM,

The one where he was "Behind Enemy Lines".

Skycaptain -You kn... (Below threshold)
JLawson:

Skycaptain -

You know one of the great things about xerox machines?

You can put different types of paper in them.

This makes it able to (for example) put it on GREEN SECURITY PAPER for a copy sent to someone, for example or on WHITE PAPER to have something that'd be easily read by a variety of cameras.

You could even put (for example) BLACK paper in.

(This would, however, make things a bit hard to read.)

I swear - it seems like some folks believe we haven't gotten beyond oak gall ink on parchment as far as records keeping goes....

(Thows hands up in disgust.)

Screw it. If you're determined to find fault with this, you will. Doesn't matter one bit what I or anyone else says - you'll find something ELSE to gripe about on it.

JLawson,I do hope ... (Below threshold)
Sky Captain:

JLawson,

I do hope you're not trying to insult me, but just not understanding.

So, I'll explain this as carefully as I can for you.

- take the pdf of the WH released document.
- select all of the text.
- Copy it and paste into MS Word.

What shows up is the layer containing the EDITS the incompetent WH staffer did. This includes the "enhancements" they did to some of the letters/numbers, along with the security paper image.

YOUR CHALLENGE : show me a photocopy machine that does this to a document.
Sure, you can print on any paper, but it just doesn't to THAT. Also, scanners don 't do that sort of "enhancements", either.

- Now repeat the process of copy-paste with the high-res ABC document.
You get the ENTIRE document, indicating it is all one "layer".


My conclusion is the WH document has been edited / enhanced /changed and then released. The document was an attempt to make it look better, but it just wasn't needed. And it resulted in a fraudulent document. The ABC News document indicates all the information is valid.




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