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The Shoulders Of Giants

If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants.
-- Sir Isaac Newton

In the pursuit and killing of Osama Bin Laden, President Obama showed a bit of presidential mettle. He gave orders -- difficult orders -- that led to eventually finding his hideout and assaulting it. And the man who was behind the greatest attacks on Americans is now dead.

But those decisions were based on decisions made by others. That intelligence was developed from intelligence developed by others. Obama made the right choices, gave the right orders, because he had the advantage of his predecessor and his administration.

The intelligence that led to Abbottabad (and how fitting is it that arch-Islamist Bin Laden was living in a city named after a Christian religious title?) owes its sources to Al Qaeda leaders captured by the Bush administration and interrogated -- in what was most likely "enhanced methods" -- in secret CIA detention centers abroad and in Guantanamo Bay. Those leaders -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al Libbi -- gave up the nom du guerre of Bin Laden's most trusted courier in 2007. It took four years of hard work -- including electronic surveillance, drones, and agents on the ground throughout the Afghanistan/Pakistan region -- to take that and then get his real name, his real identity, find him, and start following him around.

There are problems with following couriers like this. For one, they are highly trained to detect followers. For another, figuring out just where their base is can be tricky -- they constantly move, and determining bases from stopover points takes a lot of time and a lot of work.

Eventually, our intelligence agencies discovered the compound where Bin Laden was hiding, and Obama passed on the guaranteed efficiency and safety and sanitary nature of bombs or missiles, and took the riskier -- but more potentially rewarding -- option of sending in actual live troops to identify and then capture or kill (preferably kill, it's my understanding) Bin Laden. It was not the easier choice, but it was the right one, and Obama deserves full marks for making it.

But it must be remembered that it was the decisions and actions of the Bush administration that laid the groundwork for Obama's victory. It was under Bush that so many of the top leaders of Al Qaeda were captured alive. It was at Bush's order that they were held in places like the CIA detention centers and Guantanamo Bay. It was at Bush's order that they were treated as illegal combatants, not accused criminals, and denied the rights of the accused -- such as the right to remain silent and the right to demand counsel -- and interrogated so effectively. It was at Bush's order that interrogators were free to use whatever techniques they thought most effective, right up to (but not past) the legal definition of "torture" to extract intelligence.

Many of which were techniques and methods and procedures that Candidate Obama, many of his supporters, and many other Democrats decried and vowed to end.

Obama is a lawyer by training (but not so much by trade). In law, the intelligence gathered by these methods under the Bush administration would be called, in court, "the fruit of the poisoned tree" and discarded -- if we considered the War on Terror a criminal matter. But in war, the concept is downright laughable. Intelligence is intelligence, and the only time it is discarded is if it is proven incorrect. And even when it's wrong, it can still be useful.

Here, President Obama did not act like a lawyer, but a Commander In Chief. And he scored a victory in the War That Dare Not Speak Its Name, for which he must be lauded. And if he chooses to not note the key factors that gave him that opportunity for victory -- methods and techniques that he repeatedly denounced and vowed to end -- then so be it. It's his prerogative.

But the rest of us need to remember and remind each other that it took the efforts of two presidents to finally bring justice to Osama Bin Laden.  It was a relay race, and while Obama was the one to cross the finish line, he didn't win the race by himself.

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Comments (49)

Amen!!!... (Below threshold)
RB:

Amen!!!

Bin Laden's contempt of the... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Bin Laden's contempt of the US was based partly in the belief that our democracy would prevent us from waging a campaign for more than 8 years since he believed that changing of administrations would mean that we could not sustain a long term effort against him.

I'll bet he'd like to reconsider that if half of his head wasn't splattered on the wall.

I don't get the cheerleadin... (Below threshold)
Chico:

I don't get the cheerleading for government torture among people who say they're for limited government.

It's like, hiking the gas tax to pay for roads is an outrage, but torture the hell out of whoever the government says is a terrorist.

It was torture, too. The USA charged Japanese who did waterboarding with war crimes after WWII. Just because some whore lawyer like Yoo wrote a memo does not change the standards.

The intelligence that led to this is TS-SCI. Any pundit claiming to know what led to it is full of shit.

If Bush had been a competent president, the wars and bin Laden would have been ended a long time ago.

Chico, it's been demonstrat... (Below threshold)

Chico, it's been demonstrated time and time again that the Japanese water torture was NOTHING like the CIA's waterboarding, and you're repeating yoru standard DU talking points.

If you want to be banned, just say so. I'll be glad to oblige.

J.

"And if he chooses to not n... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"And if he chooses to not note the key factors that gave him that opportunity for victory -- methods and techniques that he repeatedly denounced and vowed to end -- then so be it. It's his prerogative."

No, it's called "selective amnesia".

"I don't get the cheerleading for government torture among people who say they're for limited government."

That statement makes absolutely no sense. But then, most of the time you don't Chico.

"It was torture, too. The USA charged Japanese who did waterboarding with war crimes after WWII. Just because some whore lawyer like Yoo wrote a memo does not change the standards."

Bullshit! I seriously doubt the Japanese used all the safeguards in place when shit heads like Mohammad were water boarded. Did the Japanese have doctor's in the room Chico? Or psychiatrists? Medical monitoring devices?

Give it a fucking break!

I talked to my Green Beret ... (Below threshold)
twolaneflash:

I talked to my Green Beret son who is in Afghanistan yesterday. Troops in camp were able to see their CIC's teleprompter reading and were disgusted with his "I, I, I, Me, Me, Me" speech. They don't give him much credit for anything except making their lives harder with his rules-of-engagement, denying them needed equipment, and sending them into harm's way without the will-to-win. Buck O'Fama.

Chico, it's been d... (Below threshold)
Chico:
Chico, it's been demonstrated time and time again that the Japanese water torture was NOTHING like the CIA's waterboarding, and you're repeating yoru standard DU talking points.

If you want to be banned, just say so. I'll be glad to oblige.

How was the Japanese practice different? They used Japanese water? Yeah, that's totally different.

Hell, Chris Hitchens, Erich "Mankow" Muller, Oliver Harvey, and Mike Guy all volunteered to be waterboarded, all begged for it to stop and said it was torture.

Not to mention stuff like stripping guys and lowering the AC down to room temperatures in 50s Fahrenheit.

Even innocent guys were tortured to death, I remember one case of a taxi driver picked up because of mistaken identity and tortured to death by beating his legs.

The USA used to to stand for decency and human rights - we treated EPWs well during WWII. Now the name of our country is identified with torture.

Challenge an authoritarian's beliefs and defenses, and the authoritarian comes right out. Does it mean that people who believe in torture can't handle open dialogue - the dialogue has to conform to their internal narrative and party-line sources? Goes to the worship of power, I guess.

Chica is the typical lefty ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Chica is the typical lefty dem. He's willing to take credit for the benefits reaped from the interrogation of prisoners and just as willing to put in prison those very people who did the interrogations and collected the intel that made the victory possible.

It's so much easier to reserve all credit for yourself when you silence those people whose work made your success possible. And if you have to break the rules to get something done just make sure that someone else will take the fall for the rule breaking.

Only one thing, Khalid Shei... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Only one thing, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in, March 2003 and gave up the courier's name supposedly years later you say? Doesn´t sound so effective that 'interrogation technique' .

As for Abu Faraj al Libbi he was interrogated or tortured in 2005, gave up the courier´s nom de guerre in 2007 mnnnnnn.

Christ, how many times has ... (Below threshold)

Christ, how many times has this been asked and answered?

1) The most prominent distinction is that the Japanese didn't "waterboard," they partially drowned their victims. Water was introduced into their lungs. In the US practice, water is kept out of their lungs -- it's merely the SENSATION.

B) KSM was not "waterboarded" 183 times, he was subjected to 183 "pours." Good thing Steve isn't a cop -- get beat up, and he'll charge the attacker with a separate assault charge for each individual punch.

This is NOT a debate on waterboarding, and WILL NOT become one. The fact is, it was used, and those who were subjected to it gave us intelligence that helped get Bin Laden. Rehashing the arguments about the precise nature of it are NOT on topic. Chico, I expect this from, but not you, Steve.

Now, anyone wanna talk about how Obama vowed to end all these terrible things, hasn't, and instead used them to get Bin Laden?

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

J.

"How was the Japanese pract... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"How was the Japanese practice different? They used Japanese water? Yeah, that's totally different."

Hey shit head! It was already explained to you how it was "different". So you just ignore it.

Why not just shag your fucking liberal ass over to Huffpo or DU where you'll be welcome. And it has nothing to do with 'stifling' anything. It's called 'the same old liberal shit - again'.

Garand, that language and a... (Below threshold)

Garand, that language and attitude is totally inappropriate and uncalled-for, and demands that I take action. Brace yourself for an Official Jay Tea Chastisement:

Don't be doin' dat.

And if you do it again, I'll say it again.

J.

Even Obama gets it now. And... (Below threshold)
Constitution First:

Even Obama gets it now. And that's saying something.

Chico"If Bush had ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Chico

"If Bush had been a competent president, the wars and bin Laden would have been ended a long time ago"


Ummm lets see " Bush was in office for 7 years of warfare. Obama has been in office over 2. How many wars did Bush win
? 2. How many did Obama win? 0.
Bush had to manage the occupation for years with a hostile congress. Obama hasnt had to do squat as far as the war is concerned with a hostile congress.
Saying Obama is suceeding where Bush has failed is like saying the pitcher who pitches one out in the 9th inning is responsible winning the game when the previous pitcher pitched 8 2/3rds innings.

It took 4 years to develop the intelligence to get Bin Ladaen. 2.5 years of the 4 of that OBama was in office. Yet you want to complain about Bush not ending this mess sooner.

The USSR was in Afghanistan for 10 years and left with the tails between their legs. They didnt worry about civlian casualties, allegations of torture, a hostile press, assinine rules of engagement, civil rights of prisoners and the Geneva convention.

Bush had all the above concerns to deal with plus Iraq on top of it.

GIve it a break Chico. Your statements dont even come close to reality.

Chico plays the dumb card w... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

Chico plays the dumb card well. When in doubt, woop it out!

Chicoa. japanese ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Chico

a. japanese didnt have doctors nearby when they did their waterboarding. Both medical and psycological.

b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[104] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[105] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[106][107][108]

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[109] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[35] The United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war.[9]

That isnt how we did it.

c.
Defendant: Sawamura, Masatoshi, Sergeant, Headquarters POW Camp;Taisho POW Camp (No. 10 Branch Camp); and Yokkaichi POW Camp (No. 17 Branch Camp or Nagoya No. 5 POW Camp), all in Osaka Area, Honshu, Japan Docket No./ Date: 136/ April 14 - 29, 1947, Yokohama, Japan
Charge: Violation of the laws and customs of war: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and abuse PWs (spec 1-5, 13-15, 20, 22, 23, 26, 27) 2. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PW (spec 6-8, 16-18, 21, 24, 25)
Specifications: beating using among others hands, sword scabbard, saber belt, belt buckle, bamboo sticks, rifle butts; kicking; subjecting PWs to ju-jitsu; forcing PW to stand at attention for a long period of time, sometimes in cold weather without sufficient clothing and on one occasion, in the nude; throwing a bucket of ice cold water over PW in cold weather;water treatment which entailed forcing water down PWs throat and nostrils using among others a hose, tubes; picking up and throwing PW to the ground; banging head against a wall; raising and lowering a sword on a PWs neck in an effort to make him give information.
Verdict: 30 years CHL
Reviewing Authority's Recommendations: Accused, at times brutally, beat and tortured PWs for minor infractions of camp regulations (failing to salute, stealing, being slow or failing to execute orders, accepting food from civilians outside of the camp, accepting cigarettes from a Japanese guard that they would not name, eating foodstuffs not given to them) and for no reason at all ("beaten, humiliated and pestered by Sawamura constantly"). Accused was known as the most brutal of all the Japanese in the camps, often inflicting brutal beatings and torture for anything that he did not find to his liking (the manner of reporting attendance, for mistakes made while reporting attendance or issuing commands in Japanese, not marching "to suit" the accused)


Gee dont think we forced hoses down people throats either.

I know Jay Tea doesnt want to make this a thing on water torture and I wont.

How about you get off the democratic talking points Chico?

Last time I checked Obama ordered a military invasion of a sovereign country and killed a man being protected by them. Last time I checked killing someone was worse than waterboarding them. This was done without UN or congressional approval. WHy arent you accusing Obama of war crimes?

Also in previous posts you stated we should have concentrated on Afghanistan instead of going into Iraq becuase that is where Bin Laden was.

By your logic does that mean we should do a full scale invasion of Pakistan especiallyh since they were harboring Bin Laden? You wanted the same for Afghanistan so why not Pakistan?

Also ref Steve's mention of... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Also ref Steve's mention of them giving up names later after the waterboarding.

It has been documented that they felt according to their religion once they were broken (via waterboarding) then they could in good conscience (because they had resisted all they could) give up all the information they knew since they had resisted enough.

Had they never been waterboarded they would not have been broken and they wouldnt have given up squat.

You guys go straight to C without going through A and B first.

Liberals

Obama got him(but Bush had noting to do with it)

KSM gave up the name without any waterboarding.

Reality

Bush wore down AQ resistance and put OBL on the run and dogged him for 7 years.

KSM broke under waterboarding, thus fulfilling his religous obligation to resist as much as possible and then spilled his guts.

Steve<a href="http... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Steve

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/227376/cracking-ksm/deroy-murdock

Besides waterboarding KSM, Abu Zubaydah, and Rahim al-Nashiri, enhanced interrogations for less hardened terror suspects who ignored simple interview questions involved face slapping, sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and dietary manipulation. Even softer terrorists needed to be leaned on, though more lightly. Are any of these techniques too much? One memo quotes Abu Zubaydah himself on what it takes to crack a terrorist: “Brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship.” Preventing mass murder sometimes requires American security personnel to push these sworn killers past that line.

As Jay Tea so aptly put it. Obama is standing on the shoulders of giants.

As usual when the right is ... (Below threshold)
419:

As usual when the right is wrong, they resort to flat out lies.

Fact: Waterboarding is torture.

Fact: Torture is wrong. Always.

Fact: The intel that led to Osama was not obtained through torture. And even if it had been, see fact #2.

Cue the right wing lies in 3...2...1...

Obama's press conference sh... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Obama's press conference should have been 7 words

"Bin Laden is dead. I blame Bush."


-------

419

Using a page out of hte abortion text book, waterboard "was legal" so therefore it was acceptable to use it.


Reading yours, steves, and chicos posts are torture. Please go back to the left loony bin oyou crawled out of.

Liberal idealogy.K... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Liberal idealogy.

Killing 30 million unborn children is acceptable.

Using approved interrogation techniques on terrorist is horrid, abdominable and wrong.

I know it's hard, but pleas... (Below threshold)
419:

I know it's hard, but please try to stay on topic, rm.

I met a women who after a l... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

I met a women who after a long day took off her high heels and said "That was torture".

I had to sit on a Grand Jury Panel this morning, and THAT was torture.

The left has made the word torture as effective and the word racist. Over used and not applied correctly.

JT, on your post: Here, here. Fabulous. ww

#22Its nice to see... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

#22

Its nice to see 419 never forgets to leave home without the 'Woop' card. However the card is over the hypocritical limit and may need a back up ' sling galoob' card to proceed further.

Osamas dead! For once 'I bl... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

Osamas dead! For once 'I blame Bush!' Applies accurately.

"Here, President Obama did ... (Below threshold)
davidt:

"Here, President Obama did not act like a lawyer, but a Commander In Chief."

I would say he acted like a politician, trying to do his best to avoid what might make him look bad in the eyes of voters, and to do what might make him look good in the eyes of voters.

419"I know it's ha... (Below threshold)
retired military:

419

"I know it's hard, but please try to stay on topic, rm"

The pot calls the kettle black. Ooops did I say black. Cue the accusations of racism in 3...2....1...

BTW 419What's the ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

BTW 419

What's the matter? Truth hurts dont it.

Only one thing, Khalid S... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Only one thing, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in, March 2003 and gave up the courier's name supposedly years later you say? Doesn´t sound so effective that 'interrogation technique' .

I support Crickmore's suggestion that we get even harder nosed with these a-holes. You're right on the money, Steve. I didn't know you had it in you.

I did write a long reply to... (Below threshold)
Chico:

I did write a long reply to retired and Garand on the issues they raised, but that has been "held for approval."

JaySteve wanted to... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Jay

Steve wanted to capture Bin Laden, and put him on trial. He also suggested that there was a possibility of turning Bin Laden. He didnt mention how we were supposed to do that. Maybe by throwing twinkies at him or something? Having Obama bow repeatedly to him? Maybe make him listen to Obama's speeches via Ipod?

RM, so Crickmore isn't prop... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

RM, so Crickmore isn't proposing to get brutal with detainees?

Then I guess we won't need those videotapes of The View after all.

Retired military, thus far,... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Retired military, thus far, I have not heard of Osama putting up much of fight, if any? There were eight children and two of his wives in the compound. I don´t know whether he could have taken alive, without endangering the Seals. I haven't heard of any or many weapons in an arsenal being found.

My preferred option would have been that we capture him and then send him to Baghdad to be tried, in a trial similar to Saddam Hussein's with the same assured fate. That would have been a real coup.

Let him sweat a little under the hands of shiite interogators who lost their loved ones through the al Queda bombings. Their victims were in the thousands. Maybe we would have gained some intelligence as well, as to had been supporting and protecting all these years?

Unfortunately, bin Laden got off lucky, considering all the possibilities.

SteveI will take t... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Steve

I will take the 100% option vs the 99% option any day of the week.

Better off dead and deal with the consequences than alive and dealing with those. Suppose the world court stated that Iraq and no authority over him as far as trial goes. Suppose he was broken out of prison like the recent Iranian(?) jail break. Suppose Russian or China had gotten involved? The humanitarian movement would have wanted to give peace a chance and show mercy to teach Islam a lesson. He oculd have tripped and broken his neck and the US would have been accosted world wide as killing people in custody. Not to mention the $10s of thousands of dollars in medical treatment he would have required which could be spent much more wisely here in the US.

A thousand more things can go wrong with a live martyr than a dead one. With the dead one you say "ooops he resisted. Sorry about that" and pay your quarter for the bullet. . With a live one you have to cover every second of every day and pay out millions not to mention putting hundreds if not thousands of lives were at stake.

I would have had no problem with Obama coming out and saying "Our sole purpose int his mission was to kill him. Mission accomplished."

---------------------
As for Chico

Please no long winded diatribes full of left wing talking points. Been there done that and the govt took the Tshirt for back taxes.

My preferred option woul... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

My preferred option would have been that we capture him and then send him to Baghdad to be tried, in a trial similar to Saddam Hussein's with the same assured fate.

You think Eric Holder would have been good with that? Or the unhinged anti-war left? Or the ACLU? Or CAIR?

They all would have been bleating about "showcase trials" and "kangaroo courts," and babbling about how OBL should be tried in NYC.

C'mon. You know this is true. Hell, you might have been one of them for all I know.

Jay, Im not sure. i know th... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Jay, Im not sure. i know this goes aginst conventional wisdom but is Saddam any more or less a martyr because he died in a noose than being shot resisting or not resisting arrest? or Che in Bolivia, who was killed sumarily after being detained for about half an hour? I think actually Che is more of a martyr for having unknown grave for many years and Saddam less so, than if he had been shot instead of being capturedand tried.

Osama was pretty well hated in the Arab world, judging by the reaction across the Middle East and now we find he was unarmed but resisted, how? so he might not have been so difficult to take down. and then plunged with a syringe.

He is liable to become more of a martyr if Arabs find out he was just mowed down. I woud have preferred to take him alive, plus many credulous people are questioning whether he died a long time ago or is still alive?

corrected <a href="http://w... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

corrected link to Osama being hated in the Arab world, judging by reaction.

Glad he's dead. The New Yor... (Below threshold)
jim crane:

Glad he's dead. The New York Times ( I'm pretty sure ) published the fact that the cell phones were being tracked, and that is what caused the delay to be so long - the left has been on the terrorist's side for years for political expediency, and now is gleeful that the big bad guy was deleted. What a joke!!

It's amazing how everyone i... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

It's amazing how everyone is trying to ride on Obama's coat tails. I just read how even Pakistan is now taking credit for helping bring down Bin Laden.

My preferred option woul... (Below threshold)

My preferred option would have been that we capture him and then send him to Baghdad to be tried, in a trial similar to Saddam Hussein's with the same assured fate. That would have been a real coup.

Well, Steve, that's very Obama of you -- kind of like his promised "show trial" for KSM, where he assured us there would be a fair trial at which his conviction would be assured -- but even if acquitted, he'd never go free.

I can't believe that you would actually PREFER a rigged show trial instead of the open honesty of "we found him and killed him on the spot." Are you saying that as long as you can plausibly lie about it and pretend it was fair, that's enough for you?

J.

Steve"plus many cr... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Steve

"plus many credulous people are questioning whether he died a long time ago or is still alive?
"

If he died a long time ago (define long time) then are you saying that it is plausible that Obama was in on a long term coverup to the American people and staged this for some other purpose? Or is Obama is covering up the fact that Osama is still alive?

People are going to believe what they want. Rather it be he is alive, died years ago or died last week. I sincerely doubt he is still alive. if he was and made an appearnace than Obama would have so much crap covering him a legion of snowshovels couldnt dig him out.

If he died a long time ago then why would Obama not come out and say so and implicate the Bush administration in another scandal? I mean after Obama has said that Bush was guilty of everything else so why not keeping this under wraps for political gain.

Neither of the above scenarios pass the common sense or good smell test.

As to your trial scenario. Too much risk for too much uncertain gain. Plus you would be putting too many people's lives in danger even if you were going to guard him for a week. Think of the coup and recruiting AQ could do if they broke OBL out of American custody. Then you have the "he has rights" crowd. Sorry.

BTW

What was the last thing that went through Obama's mind when he saw the Navy Seals?

two 7.62 mm rounds.

"It's amazing how everyone ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

"It's amazing how everyone is trying to ride on Obama's coat tails. "

Why yes Tina, Obama went in, rappelled off the helicopter, stormed the building and shot OBL all by himself with his own gun.

know this goes ... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

know this goes aginst conventional wisdom but is Saddam any more or less a martyr because he died in a noose than being shot resisting or not resisting arrest? or Che in Bolivia, who was killed sumarily after being detained for about half an hour?

I wasn't talking about the Arab world, or indeed any overseas enemies, I was talking about our domestic enemies. The various anti-American groups within America would have had a field day defending OBL. Demonstrations in the Bay Area on his behalf would be a certainty, as would protests from CAIR, the ACLU, Code Pink, MoveOn.org, ANSWER and assorted other communist front organizations. Why? Because doing so provides a vehicle for agitation. They don't care about the issue per se, whether it be OBL, feminism, eco-nuttery, shirtlifting rights, or anything else. The issue is just a way to create and mobilize a disaffected group. (If you doubt this, answer this question: What communist country then or now actually implemented any of the policies our homegrown communists advocate? Think the USSR, DPRK, PRC, DDR, Cuba, etc. actually gave a shit about the environment, or homosexuals? Homosexuality was a crime in Cuba until a while ago.)

Well-meaning but none-too-bright liberals think that these groups share their simple-minded do-gooder instincts, and their support for Obama. They do not. Obama is but a means to an end for them. The man they want is a Lenin, or a Mao.

Its amazing how... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Its amazing how everyone is trying to ride on Obamas coat tails

I'll tell you what's amazing: that at one point we thought the 19th Amendment was a good idea.

I'll tell you what's ama... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

I'll tell you what's amazing: that at one point we thought the 19th Amendment was a good idea.

What are you saying? Do think women should not be allowed to vote?

I'm beginning to worry that... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

I'm beginning to worry that there's a strong selection pressure for gullibility. See November 8, 2008.

Quibbling about how the inf... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

Quibbling about how the information was obtained is moot.
OBL is dead and the operation is in debriefing.

What is a certainty is that the (P)resident is in "I" and "Me" mode while the people responsible have worked tirelessly at finding and removing that bastard from the planet actually did ALL the lifting.

BHO will get a dead cat bounce from this but it'll be gone in less than a week. He's STILL an empty suit, devoid of leadership or the ability to make decisions.

What are you saying? Do ... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

What are you saying? Do think women should not be allowed to vote?

Absolutely not.

Tina. I know that generall... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Tina. I know that generally you are pretty clueless but I think he was talking about one woman specifically.




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