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"He undermines the left's preening moral posturing on the War on Terror"

That from John at Verum Serum after watching Chris Wallace pointedly question White House National Security Adviser Tom Donilon:

Interesting that the justification for shooting an unarmed bin Laden in the head (we're at war with Al Qaeda) is justification we can't use to support enhanced interrogation of Islamist radicals.

Going back to John at VerumSerum, he speaks for me when he writes:

Gitmo and waterboarding are moral horrors which show America to be a ruthless, murderous monster-state run by Chimpy McHitlerburton. On the other hand, if President Obama orders an unarmed man shot in the face that's not only legal it's heroic and deserves a victory lap through ground zero.

Memo to the left: One of these two positions is wrong. You can not have it both ways.


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Comments (31)

For the tenth time, Bin Lad... (Below threshold)
Chico:

For the tenth time, Bin Laden's dead, get over it and quit yer bitchin'

I wish I had those torture tapes destroyed by the CIA, I could have made a fortune streaming them from behind a paywall for y'all to wank off to.

Allegedly, Bin Laden was no... (Below threshold)
Steve Crickmore:

Allegedly, Bin Laden was not yet in our custody. He was still considered personally too dangerous a terrorist, even as a retired super annuated unarmed one, to be captured alive. This is the working assumption. It may be indeed be a bald-faced lie, that the Seals had no such personl fears when they faced bin Laden, mano a mano. They probably sent in a reliable, experienced Seal to do the kill. The final official narriative is unlikely to be disproven .No more details will be forthcoming and it it might be more than the individual Seal's life is worth to tell what really happened?

But if bin Laden had surrendered, or was surrendering, it does undercut some of the moral high ground, we are a nation of laws not men, blah blah, of the Dems, that Obama has been undercutting, ever since he took office? My feeling it is our double standard versus yours´. When has the choice in American politics been but that?

"For the tenth time, Bin La... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

"For the tenth time, Bin Laden's dead, get over it and quit yer bitchin'"

He is indeed dead and I have no regrets. Yet as more information comes out about the setting in which it was done - very low level security at his compound, unarmed, etc. - I wonder if under a Bush administration bin laden would have been brought back alive. So, yes, the question raised about waterboarding versus shooting an unarmed man in the head is a good one. I don't blame the SEALs by the way. They were likely told that he should not be brought back alive under any circumstances. I think Obama painted himself into a corner with the Gitmo thing and having to secure bin Laden somewhere else would have been a real problem. So, for Barry's convenience, yeah, it was pretty much the better option to have him dead. I know this is an uncomfortable subject for you.

I know this is an uncomf... (Below threshold)
Chico:

I know this is an uncomfortable subject for you.

It's not at all uncomfortable for me. There is a huge difference between delibrately torturing someone on the safety of a U.S. base, even making torture official policy, and killing a dangerous terrorist on a raid in potentially hostile territory. There was a risk that OBL had a suicide vest or a bomb with a ton of explosives rigged in his house, perhaps with triggers in every room. That seems to have been a part of the operational planning assumptions: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8492908/Commandos-told-to-kill-Osama-bin-Laden-because-of-fears-he-was-wearing-suicide-vest.html

If the National Command Authority said to the SEALs "assume he has bombs rigged, take no chances, shoot him once identified rather than risk your life and the lives of your teammates," those are legal rules of engagement.

On the other hand, waterboarding, sleep deprivation, the use of cold rooms and cold water, prolonged standing, confining in boxes with bugs, etc., are all pretty clear war crimes.

Which is why our ally Canada will not extradite an Al Qaeda suspect to the USA: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/canadian-court-dismisses-appeal-to-extradite-terror-suspect-to-us-on-terrorism-charges/2011/05/06/AFUoAOBG_story.html

"For the tenth time, Bin La... (Below threshold)
Carol:

"For the tenth time, Bin Laden's dead, get over it and quit yer bitchin'"

Liberals really don't like to hear the truth so they have to change the subject and hope that it takes.

Fail.

Chico, your misstated summa... (Below threshold)
Upset Old Guy:

Chico, your misstated summaries for what others said are both annoying and, more importantly, fundamentally dishonest. We had such high hopes for you, our disappointment now expresses itself as contempt. It really is time to grow up, Chico.

Chico,That enhanced ... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Chico,
That enhanced interrogation practices may have started the CIA on the path to finding bin Laden is being debated but seems to have a credible basis. Do you feel asssassination of bin Laden was wrong because these practices may have played a role in finding him?

So Chico if you have your c... (Below threshold)
John:

So Chico if you have your choice between being waterboarded and shot in the face you take shot in the face?

Whether torture made any di... (Below threshold)
Chico:

Whether torture made any difference in finding Bin Laden is inherently unknowable to you or I, given the lack of recordings and the TS classification of the interrogation materials. A bald assertion that it helped made by the torture apologists means nothing. Even if it did, if you destroy the country in order to save it, does it mean anything? Torture is an inherently fascistic practice that will corrupt the government that practices it.

I'll leave it to this former interrogator to say why it's not effective:


But to understand the question "Does torture work?" one must also define "work." If we include all the long-term negative consequences of torture, that answer becomes very clear. Those consequences include the fact that torture handed al Qaeda its No. 1 recruiting tool, a fact confirmed by the U.S. Department of Defense's interrogators in Iraq who questioned foreign fighters about why they had come there to fight. (I have first-hand knowledge of this information because I oversaw many of these interrogations and was briefed on the aggregate results.)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/04/tortured_logic?page=0,1

Re: death of OBLPerh... (Below threshold)
epador:

Re: death of OBL
Perhaps he was shot in the back of the head, leading to a much larger exit wound on the face, thus the lack of photos published. Unless of course a low velocity low caliber bullet was introduced posteriorly and it was allowed to bounce around inside the cranium. They who know probably won't tell, at least truthfully, I hope.
Re: Canadian subject of extradition
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Politically Correct Islamification of Canada.

Poor poor chico"It... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Poor poor chico

"It's not at all uncomfortable for me."


He has time to denouce this thread and then write a discertation but claims he doesnt have time to answer Yes or No questions.

Remember Chico, A coward dies a thousand deaths a brave man but one.


"On the other hand, waterboarding, sleep deprivation, the use of cold rooms and cold water, prolonged standing, confining in boxes with bugs, etc., are all pretty clear war crimes"

Gee chico with the exception of waterboarding most of this stuff could be at any college frat initiation. Are you for them being charged with war crimes?

WHat is that show on TV ? Fear house or something like that where people get blindfolded and put their hands in boxes of bugs and snakes.

I guess survivor is a war crime as well. Make people live on a deserted island, undergo standing for long periods (during challenges), eating bugs, swimming in cold water, etc etc

Chico"Whether tort... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Chico

"Whether torture made any difference in finding Bin Laden is inherently unknowable to you or I, "

Actually it is a fact that waterboarding got the information. What is unknowable is if we would have gotten the information any other way.

"A bald assertion that it helped made by the torture apologists means nothing"

Of course you cant prove that, it is only your opinion. Opinions are like assholes, Everyone has one. Too bad you talk out of yours.

" Even if it did, if you destroy the country in order to save it, does it mean anything? "

Seems the US has survived 8 years of Pres Bush and his policies but with Obama at the helm we are going downhill fast after only 2.5 years.

"I'll leave it to this former interrogator to say why it's not effective:"

Not effective except that it lead to OBL's death.

Too bad it only took OBama 8 months to attack the compound where he knew OBL was hiding.

But nice straw men there Chico.

Now about those yes or no questions which you dont have time for.

BTW ChicoIf we had... (Below threshold)
retired military:

BTW Chico

If we had captured OBL what info would we have gottne out of him.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/05/10/obama_values_kill_but_dont_waterboard_109802.html

"The late al-Qaida founder knows that intelligence officials can't threaten him or try to strong-arm him; they can only read him his Miranda rights"

And from the same article Obama talks about the interrogators and other intelligence officials.

"On "60 Minutes," Obama said he could not praise intelligence officials enough"

Too bad his justice dept is trying to send them to jail.

Perhaps he was shot in t... (Below threshold)
Chico:

Perhaps he was shot in the back of the head, leading to a much larger exit wound on the face,

Who cares? He could have been running to the big red button to set off a ton of explosives in the house. Get it? Special Operations raids on mastermind terrorists are not like the westerns you watch, where you can't shoot a man in the back.

Re: Canadian subject of extradition
I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Politically Correct Islamification of Canada.

Funny that for all that Politically Correct Islamification Canada still has troops fighting with ours in Afghanistan. They just remember what a democracy is supposed to stand for.

Nine experienced military and civilian interrogators decry glorification of torture in Bin Laden story:

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2011/05/04/former-interrogators-decry-glorification-of-tortures-role-in-killing-of-bin-laden/

It strikes me as ironic that the advocates of torture are right-wing chickenhawk types, while the professionals seem mostly to be against it.

retired, I will use your ow... (Below threshold)
Chico:

retired, I will use your own words to answer your questions, read your own comment to see that the torture practices like forced standing, sleep deprivation and the use of cold were prosecuted by the USA after WWII:

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2011/05/03/the-shoulders-of-giants.php#comment-1497220

Hell, if Obama tore off Bin... (Below threshold)
Tsar Nicholas II:

Hell, if Obama tore off Bin Laden's head and literally shit down the corpse's neck you'd have liberal idiots smiling and fawning and patting themselves on the back for being so "cool" to have voted for the 1st half-black president. Then they'd go back to counting their trust fund money or studying for finals or watching Jon Stewart.

Waterboarding terrorists, however, during a Republican administration, well, that's bad. And evil. And "not cool."

Nuanced.

ChicoIt is torture... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Chico

It is torture reading your words. Please stop subjecting us to it.

It is pretty strange that the administration that decried waterboarding due to it being "torture" is the same administration that basically has a shoot to kill order.

Now dont get me wrong, I dont have a problem with a shoot to kill order. I am just showing yours and the left's duplicity and double standard.

I love hearing righties com... (Below threshold)
Richardww:

I love hearing righties complain about the mistreatment of Osama bin Laden.

It reminds us all that the war on terror was a religious war that had nothing to do with bringing justice to the 9/11 perps.

Chico,"Whether tortu... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Chico,
"Whether torture made any difference in finding Bin Laden is inherently unknowable to you or I, given the lack of recordings and the TS classification of the interrogation materials."

"Who cares? He could have been running to the big red button to set off a ton of explosives in the house. Get it?"

Chico, I think over time I have gotten a pretty good idea where you are coming from. That's not meant to be patronizing it's just the longer you keep talking it just becomes clearer to me. So, in putting those two quotes from you back-to-back I just want to point out that I have a real problem that you tend to trivialize an opposing opinion that might have some basis in fact by relegating it to speculation, but for some reason your outright speculations should be given credence because of your self-perceived, more highly evolved insight.

So, okay, you are no a liberal because a few weeks ago you said you criticized Obama like one time. You don't want to be categorized because I guess labels for you can be so confining and don't accommodate the nuances of your very enlightened outlook on everything. Howver, you consistently allocate your most vicious personal criticisms to Republicans/conservatives. The character analysis of Victor Davis Hanson is the most recent example and that in reality was unfair, actually wrong, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We will never be Switzerland or Luxembourg. For better or for worse it is not in our DNA at least in my mind. You much like Obama would make a terrible leader. Your ideology is beyond compromise and if you did feel forced to compromise those morals it would have to be farmed out on the back of another warm body that if necessary you could toss under the bus.

Another quote from you: "Torture is an inherently fascistic practice that will corrupt the government that practices it."
Perhaps, but not necessarily.

UBL is dead.Torture ... (Below threshold)
Olsoljer:

UBL is dead.
Torture works, waterboarding doesn't kill or maim so you can do it repetitively.
If a group of pedophiles had your child or grandchild and was passing movies around of what they were doing to him/her, don't even try to tell me you wouldn't do whatever it took to get information from one of them. Your morals and pretended adherence to "law" would go right down the shitter. If you say you wouldn't, you are either a liar, or one of the most craven cowards walking the earth.

DaveD,I guess if y... (Below threshold)
Chico:

DaveD,

I guess if you can't see the difference between disputing your basis of knowledge for a factual assertion (that torture got OBL), and explaining why the subjective motivations and actions of the SEAL who shot OBL be given the benefit of the doubt (not saying OBL was going for a bomb, but that he might have been from the point of view of the SEALs on the scene), you just aren't getting it.

Also, please tell me about Victor Davis Hanson's career in the military or CIA, tell me how I'm wrong. If you can't, I'll continue to rely on his record of evading Vietnam-era military service and his writings advocating for aggressive military action in my characterization of him as a rank chickenhawk.

http://operationyellowelephant.blogspot.com/2006/03/victor-davis-hanson-chickenhawk.html

Olsojer,

Yes, I would do what it took and suffer the legal consequences if necessary. But if you can't see the difference between that and the government making torture a policy, what can I say? It did end up that there were innocent people tortured to death by the USA.

Hey there chicka,W... (Below threshold)
Rodney Graves Author Profile Page:

Hey there chicka,

We're still waiting for your bona fides since you have challenged others for speaking on this matter who were not, in your estimation, qualified to speak on such matters short of being a "high speed operator."

Ah the hypocrisy of the left, demand of others while refusing to proivide same when challenged. Kind of shoot's old chicka's credibility right in the face, don't it?

a blathering idiot opines:<... (Below threshold)
Rodney Graves Author Profile Page:

a blathering idiot opines:

But if bin Laden had surrendered, or was surrendering, it does undercut some of the moral high ground, we are a nation of laws not men, blah blah, of the Dems, that Obama has been undercutting, ever since he took office?

Quarter, under the Customary Laws of Warfare, is reciprocal. Since al Qaeda does not honor the concept, those fighting them are under no obligation to grant quarter.

Unlawful combatants have the twin rights of becoming, and remaining, dead. Full Stop.

DaveD"Howver, you ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

DaveD

"Howver, you consistently allocate your most vicious personal criticisms to Republicans/conservatives"

That is the only thing he is consistent about. And did you notice how he totally blew past your point. We are supposed to take his "If this then that " statements as fact but anything we say is as baseless as his standards.

The very juvenile ranting o... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

The very juvenile ranting of the resident child Chico aside, how the left equates conservatives upset that Obama was shot is pure jibberish. The conservatives are putting forth that the holier than thou liberals who don't want to hurt anyone especially through water boarding has no problem with a highly trained SEAL shooting and taking out Osama. By the way, they could not shoot to kill unless ordered by a way higher up. That is ROE.

Leon Penetta honestly shared that some of the information gleaned from enhanced interrogation lead to Osama. That is a liberal. I believe it because Obama has done nothing as far as capturing terrorist assets in the field. None. Zip. So where did the info come from? In the liberal world, it came from magic fairy dust that lead the way to Osama.

I have absolutely no problem with terrorists being roughly interrogated. I rank them up with Hitler, Stalin, Milosovich, etc. True evil.

Plus when they waterboard, they are not extracting information the interrogators don't know, but what they do know so they can gauge when a subject is starting to be compliant. Learn a little first before you spew Chico. ww

Chico,"I'll continue... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Chico,
"I'll continue to rely on his record of evading Vietnam-era military service..."

I'll have to do some looking I guess but my understanding is that he received a high number in the draft lottery during the Vietnam era.

Is not having served in the military a pre-requisite for an anti-war stance?

DaveD,chicka requi... (Below threshold)
Rodney Graves Author Profile Page:

DaveD,

chicka requires much in terms of qualifications for those who post in disagreement with him. Predictably, he refuses to present his own bona fides when challenged as to his qualifications.

JT's observation about Leftist Double Standards in practice here on Wizbang!

Chico,According to t... (Below threshold)
DaveD:

Chico,
According to this link VDH had a lottery number of 354, so, yes, he probably was not drafted considering the high number. I cannot find any info on VDS draft dodger so I turn it back to you.

http://www.nndb.com/people/532/000116184/

Wow VDH is a chickenhawk dr... (Below threshold)
John:

Wow VDH is a chickenhawk draft dodger, Chico must really despise Bill Clinton truly an active draft dodger and by Chico's definition a chickenhawk just like Obama. I guess Chico only wants military men in the COC office. I guess he'll be forced for vote for Allen West for president.

Like flies to shit, chico d... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

Like flies to shit, chico draws neg votes.

Sep14I am just wai... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Sep14

I am just waiting for him to start throwing the race card all over the place.

Chioo might be woop in disguise. Woop ummm left and Chico showed up soon after.





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