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A theory to explain the insanity of the ATF's 'Fast and Furious' gun smuggling program


Lately, there's been lots of talk about the faltering state of our economy.  It's certainly the single biggest failure of the Obama Administration, and, consequently, the single biggest weakness for candidate Obama in the 2012 presidential election.

But it's not the only one.  If you are a blog reader, you are no doubt aware of the implosion of "Operation Fast and Furious", in which the ATF and Justice Departments worked together to allow American guns to be smuggled to Mexican drug cartels, ostensibly for the purpose of tracking the movement of American firearms and accurately determining how many guns from America are smuggled into Mexico each year.  But the program got out of hand, and after a US Border Patrol agent was killed by a Fast and Furious gun in a firefight with Mexican drug smugglers late last year, a group of ATF agents blew the whistle on the failed program.  These agents are currently testifying before the House of Representatives.

Confederate Yankee's Bob Owens, writing at Pajamas Media, believes the Fast and Furious scandal is about to blow wide open, as facts emerge that ATF and Justice Department officials might have been deliberately trying to plant evidence in an attempt to justify new regulations or executive orders designed to tighten government gun control:

Fast and Furious, also known by the more accurate "Gunwalker," allowed known straw purchasers to buy large quantities of firearms -- often a dozen or more semi-automatic rifles -- at a time with the full knowledge of ATF agents and executives. The guns were then smuggled into Mexico, as frustrated front-line ATF agents watched, under strict orders to do nothing.

ATF agents testifying in front of the House Oversight Committee could not explain how the operation was supposed to succeed when their surveillance efforts stopped at the border and interdiction was never an option.

ATF Agent John Dodson, testifying in front of the committee, said that in his entire law enforcement career, he had "never been involved in or even heard of an operation in which law enforcement officers let guns walk." He continued: "I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest."

The obvious answer is that Gunwalker's objective was never intended to be a "legitimate law enforcement interest." Instead, it appears that ATF Acting Director Ken Melson and Department of Justice senior executives specifically created an operation that was designed from the outset to arm Mexican narco-terrorists and increase violence substantially along both sides of the Southwest border.

Success was measured not by the number of criminals being incarcerated, but by the number of weapons transiting the border and the violence those weapons caused. An ATF manager was "delighted" when Gunwalker guns started showing up at drug busts. It would be entirely consistent with this theory if DOJ communications reflected the approval of the ATF senior officials they were colluding with -- but as we know, Holder's Department of Justice refuses to cooperate.

Owens also looks at President Obama's past involvement with the Joyce Foundation, a left-leaning social justice organization that has promoted a strong gun control agenda for decades.  During President Obama's tenure as a director at the Foundation, it spent millions of dollars in a naked attempt to bias law review literature by paying for legal reviews of gun laws and their correlation to violence, but only publishing the reviews that strongly supported gun control.  To believe that President Obama's views -- or tactics -- on gun control have changed would be extremely naive and foolish.  Just recently, Sarah Brady told a group of gun control supporters that President Obama personally assured her that his administration had been working "under the radar" on gun control measures.

Hopefully the Republicans will be successful in getting a Special Prosecutor appointed to investigate this travesty of a 'law enforcement' program.  If the testimony given by these whistle-blowing agents is accurate, it hints at a scandal that will eventually dwarf Iran/Contra from the 1980's -- if the mainstream media can be somehow persuaded to actually report it.  Owens concludes:

Considering the arming of narco-terrorist gangs, the destabilizing geopolitical effect on Mexico, the foreign policy ramifications, and the possibility of extrajudicial and criminal activity at the highest levels of the executive branch, a special prosecutor should be just one avenue of investigation. This could possibly lead to prison for senior administration officials and an indictment against President Barack Obama himself.

It couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of folks.

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Comments (53)

Given what we know: <... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Given what we know:

*that there was no effort to track these weapons after they crossed the boarder,
*that weapons were sold over the objections of not only ATF field agents but the gun shop owners,
*that ATF officials were happy to see these weapons turning up at crime scenes,
*that the administration held to a position arguing that more laws were needed to stem the tide of gun running across the border....

It seems obvious that this was a set up from the word go. I cannot come up with another explanation of why these guns were sold. The claim that they were trying to get to Mexican crime cartels is falsified by the evidence that they weren't tracked beyond the border.

This was start to finish an effort to pave the way for restrictive gun laws. The comment that obama is working "under the radar" leads to the conclusion that this was exactly that under the radar effort.

Welcome to the new, smarter, more intelligent foreign policy where America destabilizes an ally and one of her most important trading partners for the purpose of an ill conceived effort to abridge the civil rights of American citizens.

Great article Michael.... (Below threshold)
Hank:

Great article Michael.

But there are a number of very disturbing things you've highlighted.

"An ATF manager was "delighted" when Gunwalker guns started showing up at drug busts."

" Holder's Department of Justice refuses to cooperate."

And this especially and most tellingly: "that President Obama personally assured her [Brady] that his administration had been working "under the radar" on gun control measures."

What worries me the most is that this too will simply fade away, reason being that the mainstream media cannot be persuaded to actually report it, at least not accurately.

One can't help but worry about what the Obama administration is doing that we don't know about.

He can't even do "under the... (Below threshold)
Wolf:

He can't even do "under the radar" right.

who knew Obama's "Reichstag... (Below threshold)
Justrand:

who knew Obama's "Reichstag Fire" would involve firearms, eh?

The criminal enterprise known as the Obama Regime assumes the Lame Stream Media (aka: the "Ministry of Truth") will duck & cover.

Will they? Not if Darrell Issa keeps the heat on. Elections DO have consequences!!! Nancy Piglosi's House would already have swept this under the carpet!

One can't help but worry... (Below threshold)
jim m:

One can't help but worry about what the Obama administration is doing that we don't know about.

No. But we can pretty much guarantee that they will fight tooth and nail to withhold any information, avoid any FOIA request, and obstruct any investigation. Because this is the most transparently corrupt administration ever.

I've ordered you guys a new... (Below threshold)
Art W:

I've ordered you guys a new case of tin foil. Looks like you're going through a lot of it these days.

"This was start to finish a... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

"This was start to finish an effort to pave the way for restrictive gun laws."

I'm still waiting to see what the Mexican government has to say. They're all over Georgia because of anti-immigration laws - so what are they going to say about a government that openly furnished firearms to their criminal element and were used to kill their own law enforcement officers and citizens?

Mr.Laprarie, Lets ... (Below threshold)
Brucepall:

Mr.Laprarie,

Lets see if I got this right, our DOJ (a component of the Executive Branch of our government), has a hidden-from-the-public program that evaded all common sense (and our gun control Laws) to let thousands of weapons walk into the hands of foreign narco-terrorist... just so they could document the resultant death and carnage?

#!%**#?!!#!* Allowing weapons to deliberately walk makes our government part of the crime! How deep is the rot within our Department of Justice? All perps having a hand in this program need to be publicly identified, fired, and then prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and if found guilty, are removed from the public domain... for a very very long time.

Allowing low key resignations ain't going to cut it, #+*!%*#&!!**

I'm writing all three of my Congressmen as soon as I get done with this post; a special prosecutor needs to go in, get to them bottom of this, and clean house in our Executive branch. #!**%+*&**!!

SF - Brucepall

I'm still waiting to see... (Below threshold)
James Cloninger:

I'm still waiting to see what the Mexican government has to say.

This:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-03-31-mexicoguns_N.htm

Mexican President Felipe Calderón says little will change as long as the United States continues to make gun purchases so easy. His government is pressuring the Obama administration to tighten rules on sales, rather than just the cross-border transport of weapons.
"It is necessary to reduce the sale of weapons, particularly of high-powered weapons, in the United States," Calderón said Monday.

Surprised? I'm not. Maybe El Presidente, if you want to reduce the sale of cross-border weapons, maybe you should fucking tighten up that border of yours, eh?

Art WAsk yourself ... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Art W

Ask yourself this

Are you better off then you were 3 years ago?

for Nancy Pelosi the answer is HELL YES.

For most of the rest of us the answer is HELL NO.

You might want to keep that tinfoil for jan 6 2013 when obama is booted out of office. Tell me though is it left over from when Bush was in office?

Art W,Do your expl... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Art W,

Do your explanation that accounts for all these facts is????

Oh, that's right. You don't bother to actually think about what the reason would be for this administration doing these things. You just attack the people criticizing it.

Or perhaps you will just deny the truth coming from multiple reports like you did with Weiner until he confessed that he was a scumbag? The credibility of your denials is not looking so hot.

The senate deserves part of... (Below threshold)
Tina S:

The senate deserves part of the blame. In 2006 congress changed the law to require the ATF Director needs senate confirmation. Since then the senate has failed to confirm a single director.

Prosecutions should ensue. ... (Below threshold)
Matt:

Prosecutions should ensue. Federal gun laws were violated. Federal export laws were violated. Federal and international laws and treaties concerning the sale and transfer of small arms were violated. Mexican law was violated. On, and on, and on. Wow.

As for El Presidente Calderon, he needs to step up the game in Mexico. He needs to control his northern border and begin to inspect every vehicle entering Mexico for weapons. He needs to step patrols in the desert looking for smugglers bringing weapons in.

Even adding in the weapons provided to the cartels by the BATFE, the U.S. numbers are a small percentage of the weapons reportedly seized by the Mexican Govt every year. I know it's hard to imagine, but any organization that can smuggle tons of drugs through and around multiple countries can probably smuggle arms and munitions through the same routes. Lots of arms merchants in the world will sell to anyone with cash or trade for saleable goods.

Why is there no blow back f... (Below threshold)
Craig:

Why is there no blow back from Mexican press on this?

Yea Tina S. The person to b... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Yea Tina S. The person to blame is the one not hired yet. Listen to the agents testimony. They said the appointee's played loose with the rules. People died because of it. Holder was either aware of the program and he lied to congress, or the program was going on under his nose and he is too stupid to realize it. Either way, he is the guy to blame. Remember, people died as in, no longer with their family. ww

How is the fact that Senior... (Below threshold)
jim m:

How is the fact that Senior ATF officials approved this scam the fault of the senate not confirming an ATF director?

That's got to be one of the most nonsensical things I've heard yet.

By that rational, Tina, one could argue that without a director any federal agency should cease operation since they are incapable of complying with the laws of this land.

Holder has met his 'Waterlo... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

Holder has met his 'Waterloo'. Barry assassinates foreign heads of state. Sets up his own law enforcement officers to 'take one for the scheme!' How much more of this pious dumb-ass can the country stand?

Hello, Tina, this The Point... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Hello, Tina, this The Point. Mr. Point, this is Tina.

Just thought you two ought to get acquainted.

Dems once asked of the Iraq... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Dems once asked of the Iraq war, "How do you ask a soldier to be the last one to die for a mistake?"

How many Border Patrol agents will the obama administration ask to die for this mistake? Doesn't seem to me that they had any trouble with the thought that this program would be causing the deaths of many people. Seems to me that they are "delighted" by those deaths in fact.

Now for the grownups in the... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Now for the grownups in the room ...

My wife is European, and marvels at (and envies) Americans' willingness to fight back - vociferously, if need be - against things the government does that they don't like (whereas, she maintains, Europeans bitch privately and let it go at that), and wishes Europe has a Tea Party.

I think the Second Amendment (and our natural gnarliness) is key to this. (I used to be a gun grabber, but have completely reversed my views, although I still don't own a gun.) Governments in Europe can pretty much do whatever they want; the worst that happens is some rioting, and they can most likely put that down. So in the last analysis they don't have to worry too much about the popularity of a measure, if they're willing to be ruthless enough.

But here, in America, that's not true. The government faces ultimately a constraint on its actions because, in extremis, the populace is armed, and therefore is fully capable of putting up armed resistance. Furthermore, the country is huge, with lots of open space; trying to find people who don't want to be found (e.g., Eric Rudolph, Ted Kaczynski) is tough.

So no matter how ruthless some future government might want to be, it has to reckon on the possibility of engendering armed resistance, scattered and individually ineffectual as it may be, yet collectively, in aggregate, formidable and indeed ultimately insuperable. The wholesale rounding up of armed political opponents would be problematic at best. After all, those doing the rounding up would like to go home at night too.

Hence the yearning of the leftists to geld the Second Amendment, which stands as a bulwark against their most fervently desired policies. Operation Fast and Furious probably resulted from an attempt to generate a pretext to do just that. It's difficult to imagine any other purpose for it. And that's kinda scary.

"Operation Fast and Furious... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

"Operation Fast and Furious probably resulted from an attempt to generate a pretext to do just that. It's difficult to imagine any other purpose for it. And that's kinda scary."

That's exactly what Barry was attempting to do. He is very good at over stepping the law and violating the individual rights of Americans. Creating a better life for said citizenry, not so much. What he wants comes first. Its 'Tyrant' not 'Servant' where Barry's concerned.

Jay,Do you think t... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jay,

Do you think that the government wants to eliminate the 2nd Amendment because US gun owners make the largest standing infantry in the world? Kind of hard to subjugate a country when the populace could potentially field more troops than you have at your disposal.

I've ordered you g... (Below threshold)
Eric:
I've ordered you guys a new case of tin foil. Looks like you're going through a lot of it these days.

ArtW,
the facts are that the government not just knowingly permitted, but encouraged guns to be purchased and smuggled across the border into Mexico.

Do you dispute those facts?

The question is why?

The allegation is, that it was done with the intention of increasing gun violence as an excuse to increase gun control.

So ArtW, I believe you are skeptical of that allegation, I confess that I am too.

But do you believe that it is simply impossible however unlikely for the allegation to be true?

The senate deserves part... (Below threshold)
Scsiwuzzy:

The senate deserves part of the blame. In 2006 congress changed the law to require the ATF Director needs senate confirmation. Since then the senate has failed to confirm a single director.
Tina, even if this excused any of the executive branch, who has controlled the senate in this time?

Jimm is an idiot.<... (Below threshold)
Art W:

Jimm is an idiot.

"Oh, that's right. You don't bother to actually think about what the reason would be for this administration doing these things. You just attack the people criticizing it.

I looked up the reasons in legitimate news stories. The fact that you and the rest o the Wizbangers haven't a clue and yet you are yammering away as if you knew what you were talking about speaks volumes -- and I'm happy to let you stew in your stupidity happy-state. Nice hat.

"Or perhaps you will just deny the truth coming from multiple reports like you did with Weiner until he confessed that he was a scumbag? The credibility of your denials is not looking so hot."

Actually I didn't defend Weiner at all, but you're so fracking stupid you just assume I have and blather on.

Again, nice hat, Moron.

"I've ordered you guys a ne... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

"I've ordered you guys a new case of tin foil."


Don't forget to order yourself a keg of grape Kool-aid.

"I looked up the reasons in... (Below threshold)
Hank:

"I looked up the reasons in legitimate news stories."

Any pointers to these news stories, Art?

Art W,Those reason... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Art W,

Those reasons are? The official stated purpose was to help identify Mexican drug cartels so they could be targeted by laws enforcement. However there are statements by ATF agents that claim no tracking of the weapons was done once they crossed the border. That would seem to be counter to the official stated purpose.

The claim that ATF officials were "delighted" by the weapons appearing at crime scenes would also seem to run counter to the stated purpose.

If there is a simple explanation to all of this then why does DOJ block requests for information? If heir stated purpose was true then why don't they explain how the rest of the plan was supposed to work? How were they supposed to target these drug cartels?

The fact is that there wasn't any such plan. At least there isn't any evidence that there was one.

The bottom line is that just as the left defended Weiner through his absurd denials you will defend obama through this. No matter how much testimony comes out through ATF agents from the field you will never acknowledge anything but the administration line.

That is real stupidity.

You can find it quite easil... (Below threshold)
Art W:

You can find it quite easily. And you'll learn a lot... there's a lot Michael Laprarie isn't telling you about this story.

"You can find it quite easi... (Below threshold)
Hank:

"You can find it quite easily. And you'll learn a lot... "

I thought so. You don't have anything to back you up on this.

Hank, Please, do... (Below threshold)
Kenny:

Hank,

Please, do you really want links to daily kos, crooks and liars, and pravda? Thats what the loony left like art consider legitimate news sources.

And Tina,

Seriously? thats the best you can do? LOL Obamas in his third year as president, he's made recess appointments to fill other positions with candidates too controversial to be approved by the senate, and you want to blame the senate?

Although it may be to late for you, STOP DRINKING THE KOOLAID!

"there's a lot Michael Lapr... (Below threshold)
jim m:

"there's a lot Michael Laprarie isn't telling you about this story."

Such as?

Again the empty allegation. You have any actual FACTS you would like to share?

How about these facts:

"Using our sources, and reviewing documents provided to us over the past four months," Attkisson said, "we've been able to piece together a disturbing picture of where 'Fast and Furious' guns have turned up so far: at a dozen seizures and crime scenes along the U.S. border and in Mexico.

and
Most notably, two turned up last December at the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in Arizona.

and
And documents obtained by CBS news indicate some of the weapons were recently found at a drug cartel shooting of a government of Mexico helicopter...

or how about this:
ATF agent John Dodson said at the hearing... agents were never given reasonable answers why their activities were limited.

or this:
An ATF supervisor in Phoenix, Peter Forcelli, said some tried to raise concerns with supervisors but were rebuffed.

Probably not the "facts" that you were thinking of. You make this empty claim that we can find alternate explanations in the media, but what I find is comments about bipartisan anger in Congress over the whole issue.

Again that's another fact that you will dispute.

Do you think th... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Do you think that the government wants to eliminate the 2nd Amendment because US gun owners make the largest standing infantry in the world?

Jim, that's putting it a bit strongly, but in essence, yes.

I try to keep perspective on this. Many people link guns with crime, want to fight crime, and therefore want to reduce or eliminate access guns (to put it simplistically). I understand that.

But the "gun" ship has sailed; we've got lots of guns out there already, and criminals have no problem gaining access to illegal stuff (e.g., drugs) in any case. Legally sold weapons are not the problem. And, in any case, marginal reduction in the number of guns would make zero difference in the crime rate. (Most of the crime probably gets committed with

Therefore the only rational basis for restricting access to guns is to control the populace. Most liberal gun opponents subscribe to the crime fighting argument above. The hard-left types such as Bill Ayers, who admitted he would love to do his Pol Pot impression if he got the chance (something about killing ca. 25 million opponents in America, a list which I would be proud to be on), make common cause with liberal gun opponents because they need to do something about the Second Amendment and guns in America if they're to have any chance of succeeding.

Now as between Ayers and Obama, it is clear that Ayers is the brains of the outfit, Obama is the spokesmodel. So when the government does something like this, which lacks any discernible purpose other than providing a pretext for gun control, it's hard to draw any other conclusion but the alarming one.

The key sentence in this en... (Below threshold)
Caesar Augustus:

The key sentence in this entire post is:

"if the mainstream media can be somehow persuaded to actually report it."

The obvious answer is that there's no way in hell the mass media accurately will report this fiasco to the general public.

Unless and until a special prosecutor is appointed the only people who'll know about this treason are those that frequent blogs and conservative talk radio (and perhaps Fox News, depending on how serious things get) and that's a very tiny segment of the body politic. If and when a special prosecutor is appointed the media will slant their coverage to portray an image of overzealous Republicans going after the first black president and the first black attorney general to cover up their true agenda of starving grandma and grandpa and disenfranching racial minorities, yada, yada, blah, blah.

Just by way of example, do you actually believe anybody out there in Couch Potato Land remembers or even knew in the first instance about the Sandy Berger archive theft fiasco??

Ultimately here the only real remedy is to vote Obama out of office next November. Everything else is window dressing. Obama out of office means no Holder too. Obama out of office means this national nightmare finally will come to an end.

The senate deserve... (Below threshold)
Eric:
The senate deserves part of the blame. In 2006 congress changed the law to require the ATF Director needs senate confirmation. Since then the senate has failed to confirm a single director.

Which party has been in control of the U.S. Senate since 2007, and even had a fillibuster proof majority at one point?

Oh that's right, it's the same party as the President.

Silly Democrats.

Jay,I agree. Ther... (Below threshold)
jim m:

Jay,

I agree. There are those who believe in gun control because they worry about crime. I think they are largely misinformed, but there are those who are truly well meaning.

There are others who just don't like guns and want to impose their will on others. This I believe makes up the majority of the gun control movement.

Lastly there are those on the fringe like Bill Ayers and his crowd ( and I remember that obama is in that crowd) that want gun control because it makes it easier to control the masses. They look at Castro and see that the first thing he did was to confiscate guns and it made it far easier for him to impose his will upon Cuba. They know that their ideas will be unpopular and they want to make sure that they can impose them on he rest of us.

Lenin once said that he expected to lose 10% of the Russian population on the way to imposing communism on that nation. I think people like Ayers and obama would be OK with losing 33 million lives in America if they knew they could get away with it and that by doing so they could impose their will upon the nation. I think they would do it in a heartbeat.

Oh, and don't let this bit ... (Below threshold)
cirby:

Oh, and don't let this bit slide by: Some reporters are trying to pretend the Gunwalker story started in the Bush administration - because the original plan that the Obama folks "expanded on" was created in 2006 or so. The ancestor of "Gunwalker" was supposed to do the same thing - except the idea was to catch the straw purchasers and arrest them here, so they could get links to the cartels.

Of course, the current crop of flunkies added the "don't bother tracking the weapons" detail, and followed up on it by pushing the "look at how many guns came from the US" angle in the press.

Jim m, here ya go - the tes... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Jim m, here ya go - the testimony of FBI informant Larry Grathwohl in the 1982 documentary No Place to Hide:

I asked, "well what is going to happen to those people we can't reeducate, that are diehard capitalists?" and the reply was that they'd have to be eliminated.

And when I pursued this further, they estimated they would have to eliminate 25 million people in these reeducation centers.

And when I say "eliminate," I mean "kill."

Twenty-five million people.

I want you to imagine sitting in a room with 25 people, most of which have graduate degrees, from Columbia and other well-known educational centers, and hear them figuring out the logistics for the elimination of 25 million people.

And they were dead serious.

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/276377.php

They were dead serious.

So am I.

Hey Art - keep swilling th... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Hey Art - keep swilling the Kool Aid. It won't make you any smarter, but will probably make you feel better.

Art W., again I have to ask... (Below threshold)
WildWillie:

Art W., again I have to ask you where is the damaging emails that you were so giddy and sure about that would come from the Palin email release? I mean, you said it would shut her and us up for good. Where Art W.? You have sources don't you?

Oh yea! On this story, my source is: I watched the comittee hearing. The story is real. Like in people died because of Obama and Holder. ww

Tina S. Who had a majority... (Below threshold)
retired military:

Tina S. Who had a majority in the Senate in 2006?

Who had 60 seats in the Senate in From Jan 2009-Jan 2011?

Who has a majority in the Senate today?

The answer to all 3 is DEMORATS.

Tina, put down the kool aid... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

Tina, put down the kool aid filled dixie cup long enough to grasp reality.

Its for the children..

So, I take it that your han... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

So, I take it that your hand wave trying to shoo away the stench of a scandal that reaches all the way to the top of the Justice Dept and quite possibly the White House are part of the VRWC Art W?

I'd suggest that you educate yourself on the actual facts of the matter wherein the Justice Dept had a hand in arming narcoterrorists in a foreign country.

Maybe you don't give a damn about the hundreds of Mexican civilians and members of their armed forces that have been killed with these weapons. Its a certainty that you could care less that American Border Patrol agents are being shot at and killed with the weapons that were allowed to be bought and then moved across the border counter to US and Mexican law.

This story has been brewing for some time and the two primary sources that uncovered a vast majority of it are:

1. Mike Vanderboegh @

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/

2. David Codrea, @

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/david-codrea

You might also want to drop in on a blog where the actual people on the BATFE front lines comment on this:

CleanUpATF.org

I expect you'll remain ignorant of actual facts, but for you that's par for the course and exactly what Obama wants. If anyone here needs a tinfoil beanie, its you Art W. Hurry, the facts of goverment misconduct are about to break like Niagara Falls,

Let's put it this way to ou... (Below threshold)
Jay Guevara:

Let's put it this way to our lefty friends: if the government were indisputably allowing Mexican drug cartels to buy weapons to provide leverage on gun control, would you have a problem with that?

It's a hypothetical. Please don't argue that the hypothetical isn't true. Suppose you knew that the premise above was true beyond the slightest shadow of doubt. OK, or not OK?

(Oh, and the government in question is run by Democrats. Forgot to specify that, which is probably key to shaping your view.)

Go here to see a partial ma... (Below threshold)
Gmac:

Go here to see a partial map of the drug war gun deaths courtesy of the BATFE and the Justice Dept. in Mexico:

http://blksunsoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/expletive-deleted.html

If you’ve got a gun in your... (Below threshold)
LiberalNItemare:

If you’ve got a gun in your house, I’m not taking it,’’ Obama said. But the Illinois senator could still see skeptics in the crowd, particularly on the faces of several men at the back of the room.

So he tried again. “Even if I want to take them away, I don’t have the votes in Congress,’’ he said. “This can’t be the reason not to vote for me. Can everyone hear me in the back? I see a couple of sportsmen back there. I’m not going to take away your guns.’’

http://www.bucksright.com/obama-on-taking-guns-i-dont-have-the-votes-in-congress-918

Lying sack of presidential shit.

“Even if I want to take ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

“Even if I want to take them away, I don’t have the votes in Congress,"

As if actually passing a law ever meant anything to him. He will just have some bureaucracy declare it defacto.

I recently watched a rerun of The World at War. I was shocked to listen to an official from the FDR admin stating that they knew they did not have statutory authority to ban the sale of tires, but they issued the order and enforced it anyway. His statement made it clear that they knew they could run right over anyone making objections. THAT is how obama wants to run this nation.

And Jay won't get a response to his hypothetical because the lefties will never admit that allowing people to be murdered in order to achieve their goals is perfectly OK with them. Remember: Alinski said that the only immoral use of a means to an end is the non-use of means.

obama is big on Alinski. I firmly believe that he would sacrifice innocent lives in order to achieve his political ends.

Apparently Mexicans ... (Below threshold)
LiberalNItemare:


Apparently Mexicans are as expendable as ATF agents when it comes to hope and change.

Too bad there isn't a political party that is willing to stand up for the little guy and protect people rights.

Oh wait, didnt that used to be the democratic parties job?

As election time draws near... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

As election time draws near everyone is 'expendable' to the jumbo eared dooosh! Even Holder can consider himself 'collateral damage' to JEF if he fails to deliver the dead votes Barry will need.

@#47jim x, he alread... (Below threshold)
JDL:

@#47
jim x, he already is killing people, his administration admitted to planting the seeds and starting the "Arab spring". Many innocent people have been raped and killed during the so called "democratic uprising" and many more thad have fled their countries.

Obama does not give a damn about those people, and he sure does not give a damn about us "rich" Americans. Obama is more than willing to give Americas wealth away to others. Just as long as he has his golf clubs and Soros to keep him company, he is happy.

I do believe that Obama cannot stand being president, he has to work too much.

JDL,It's jim m at ... (Below threshold)
jim m:

JDL,

It's jim m at 47 not Jim x. Please don't confuse me with him. THX

"Please don't confuse me wi... (Below threshold)
Sep14:

"Please don't confuse me with him"


Ha ha, like night and day.

Hmmmm......so according to ... (Below threshold)
GarandFan:

Hmmmm......so according to the Obama Administration we're in Libya 'to protect the people'.

Would that be the same administration that sold weapons to vicious drug cartels in Mexico?

Guess some people are more worthy of 'protection' than others.




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