A little while ago, I discussed why I am a supporter of Israel. It sparked a rather interesting discussion that lasted a decent while. But one commenter — “JP” — decided to wait until last Saturday to answer my 12/30 piece.
Given that he waited over a week to answer my posting, I don’t feel too guilty about taking a day or two to properly answer him. And considering how poor his alleged “argument” against Israel is, I’m tempted to just ignore it. But in the spirit of making silk purses out of sow’s ears, his blather gives me an easy chance to smack around some of the more persistently stupid myths he perpetrates.
This fisking isn’t going to be pretty, and it’s going to be boring to some people, so I’m stuffing it below the fold.
The jews have never been treated well by Christians. It was Christians who kicked them out of Spain and the Muslim turks who gave them sanctuary. Once again it was Christian Germany who tried to massacre them during WW2 but the ultimate irony is that it is the Muslims who get punished for it.
Yes, that’s true. The history of Christianity starts with being persecuted, and evolves into becoming the persecutors. The historic treatment of Jews by Christians is shabby, to put it kindly. “Atrocious” would probably fit certain aspects, as well.
But they outgrew it. The relations between Christians and Jews are, nowadays, the best they’ve ever been. The Vatican has formalized relations with Israel.
Citing Nazi Germany as a “Christian” state was a bit of a stretch, though. If you’d cited the Vatican’s complicity in fascism during World War II I might have respected your argument a smidgen more, but the Nazis were NOT representative of Christianity — not even to themselves.
Why force a State of Israel onto a place where mostly Muslim, Christian and Jewish Arabs (Yes they exist They are treated as second class citizens by the Ashkanazi Jews who came from Europe) were living. Sure in historical times Jews lived in the Levant. So what?
Let’s see. After World War II, the Jews looked around and realized that Europe had persecuted them for millenia, culminating in an outright attempt at exterminating them. A good number of them decided at that point “screw this, we’re outta here” and wanted out. They decided that they wouldn’t really feel safe unless they had their own homeland, preferably in the land where they started out as a people, a land where they’d had a presence for several thousand years, a land where their holiest sites were located. And the UN (in a decision they’ve tried to undo ever since) agreed, and allowed a modern-day Israel to come into being upon the lands of the ancient one.
Also, according to the CIA Factbook, 80.1% of Israelis are Jewish. 15.9% are Muslim, and less than 5% are Christian.
In Historical times Muslims lived in Spain and Apaches lived in Southern United States. Noone is forcing the Christians of Spain or the WASPs of America to vacate the land for the original owners so why target the Muslim and Christian Arabs for the special treatment. If Europe needed to salve its concience about the holocaust why not setup a Jewish homeland somewhere in Europe or for that matter America.
One difference is that a lot of those who fled Israel at its founding weren’t driven out, they voluntarily left. Hell, some actually SOLD their holdings — even before the founding, Zionists were buying up lands around Israel and paying fair prices for it.
And as I pointed out, Israelis didn’t WANT to be beholden to any nation, or take charity. They wanted their own land, where (to them) God had given them and where they had maintained a presence for millenia.
It is sheer hypocricy to salve the European concience by forcing Arabs out of their homes to create an apartheid state of Israel. I personally say lets end apartheid in Israel.
Ah, the “apartheid” argument. PG overlooks that non-Jews are full citizens of Israel, with all the rights — but without all the responsibilities. Only Jews are required to serve in the military; non-Jewish citizens are allowed to volunteer, but are not conscripted.
What this means is that Israel should absorb the West Bank and Gaza and give all Palestinians a vote in the Israeli elections. Also all special benefits for housing, schools etc given to Jews should be removed and everyone should be treated as equal. Given that the Arab population of such a combined state would be a majority I wouldnt be surprised to see Abbas being elected President of Israel.
Hmm… gee, that sounds like a blueprint for wiping the nation of Israel off the map. Kind of like the plans of Iran’s president, without the threat of nukes. But that would be a bit paranoid of me, wouldn’t it? PG wouldn’t really be calling for the extermination of the nation of Israel, would he? Nah.
And once that happens most probably the country will revert to its historical name of Palestine.
Whoops, my bad. He is.
And as far as the name “Palestine” being historic — it is, kind of. But as recently as the 1930’s, “Palestinians” was used to describe the Jews living in the area. And let’s not forget the origin of the name — it was a corrupted form of “Philistine,” imposed by the Romans after they destroyed the Jewish state. Oh, and what was the name the Romans wanted obliterated from history?
Oh, yeah. “Israel.”
Hey, if it was good enough for the Romans in their attempt to crush the Jews, why not try it again?
This would also remove the root cause of 80% of the terrorism in the Middle East and lead to a safer America.
Actually, I think it would remove the root excuse for 95% of the terrorism in the Middle East. The cause of terrorism is militant Islam and the whole Mid-East culture that fosters and perpetuates the “shame” mentality and the fact that it is seen as effective.
As far as making America safer — I think not. Israel is a good, reliable source of both intelligence and experience in fighting terrorism. All our betraying Israel will do is achieve us a very brief respite — we’re on their list for a LOT more than our support of Israel. After that, our actions will not be seen as principled, but cowardly — and encourage more attacks. We learned that lesson during the Clinton administration, when numerous major terrorist attacks and open acts of war were shrugged off.
Another important point is the right of return. As Arab palestinians who fled Israel are not allowed back in it is extrremely unfair that their is an unlimited right of immigration for Jews. This kind of special treatment would also need to be removed.
Ah, yes, the “Right of Return.” Never mind that most of the so-called Palestinians either fled willingly, at the behest of their Arab neighbors, or never were residents of modern-day Israel. Anyone who can gin up some vague connection to “Palestine” should be allowed to move there, unrestrained, until they simply outnumber the Jews and then pull off the time-honored totalitarian gambit of “one man, one vote, one time.”
I don’t know why I need to spell it out yet again, but historically speaking there NEVER WAS A PALESTINE. “Palestine” was a fabrication created by the Romans as part of their attempt to exterminate the Jewish nation. There is no history of Palestine. There were no kings or emperors or rulers of Palestine. There were no great Palestinian leaders, or explorers, or scientists, or merchants. There are no annals of Palestinian history. There isn’t even a Palestinian currency. The history of the “Palestinians” dates back to the 1940’s, and everything earlier is either a forgery or a hijacking of the Jews’ history.
If this safety valve is absolutely required America could provide it by having a right of immigration law for Jews.
And here I thought PG was against special rights for Jews. Silly me.
But what about those Jews who don’t want to live in America? True, more Jews live in the United States than in any other nation on earth (including Israel), but not all of them do. I’m rather proud that my country is seen as one of the two safest places on Earth to be Jewish (and not just because I subscribe to the “Jews as canaries in the coal mine” theory — that when a place gets unpleasant for Jews, it’s gonna get bad for everyone else soon enough), but I don’t believe we should assist in the destruction of the other one and then welcome the refugees with open arms.
My support for Israel is based on that it is one of those rare occasions when pragmatism and principle coincide. It’s both the right and the smart thing to do.
And heaven knows it’s easier when my opponents are such idiots as PG. As Voltaire said, “O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.”