Byron York writes in National Review that Tom Kean, co-chair of the 9/11 Commission, fears that the terrorist finance tracking program, which was very effective and completely legal, is over:
Thomas Kean, the co-chairman of the September 11 Commission, was briefed several weeks ago about the Treasury Department’s terrorist-finance program, and after the session, Kean says, “I came away with the idea that this was a good program, one that was legal, one that was not violating anybody’s civil liberties…and something the U.S. government should be doing to make us safer.”
Kean tells National Review Online that the New York Times’s decision to expose the terrorist finance effort — Kean called Times executive editor Bill Keller in an attempt to persuade him not to publish — has done terrible damage to the program. “I think it’s over,” Kean says. “Terrorists read the newspapers. Once the program became known, then obviously the terrorists were not going to use these methods any more.”
There are a variety of ways to transport or transfer money; electronic transfers are just one means of doing it. Now the terrorists will find other ways to make their financial transactions, which will make it more difficult for us to track them.
The exposure of the terrorist-finance program was particularly troubling to Kean because the 9/11 Commission had given high marks to the administration’s efforts in the area of terrorist financing…the only area in which the administration scored an “A” — actually an “A-” — was in its efforts on terrorist financing. “The U.S. has won the support of key countries in tackling terrorism finance,” the commissioners wrote, “though there is still much to do in the Gulf States and in South Asia. The government has made significant strides in using terrorism finance as an intelligence tool.”
Now, a major part of that effort appears to have been compromised. “That’s the way it is in this war,” says Kean. “There are a number of programs we are using to try to disrupt terrorist activities, and you never know which one is going to be successful. We knew that this one already had been.”
Not anymore, thanks to the New York Times and other media outlets.
Let’s not forget that shortly after 9/11 the editors of the New York Times demanded that the Bush Administration follow the terrorists’ financial records as one method of fighting terror:
The Bush administration is preparing new laws to help track terrorists through their money-laundering activity and is readying an executive order freezing the assets of known terrorists. Much more is needed, including stricter regulations, the recruitment of specialized investigators and greater cooperation with foreign banking authorities. There must also must be closer coordination among America’s law enforcement, national security and financial regulatory agencies….If America is going to wage a new kind of war against terrorism, it must act on all fronts, including the financial one.
Isn’t interesting that the New York Times killed the very program it demanded President Bush create. And how will the Times react if the US were to be hit by terrorists again? How else – by blaming the Bush Administration for failing to prevent the attack.
Old Timer:
First of all, THANK YOU for your service to our country. I really and truly mean that.
Second, while you call this story “ridiculous,” I must disagree. If everything the NYT published was already out there in the open for all (including the terrorists) to see, why publish it on the front page in the first place? Why rely on leaks from insiders?
Third, I’d be interested in hearing your response to what your fellow soldier T.F. Boggs wrote to Bill Keller:
“Your recent decision to publish information about a classified program intended to track the banking transactions of possible terrorists is not only detrimental to America but also to its fighting men and women overseas,” Boggs wrote. “Terrorism happens here every day because there are rich men out there willing to support the . . . terrorist who plants bombs and shoots soldiers. . . . Without money, terrorism in Iraq would die because there would no longer be supplies for IED’s, no mortars . . . and no motivation for people to abandon regular work in hopes of striking it rich after killing a soldier. Thank you for continually contributing to the deaths of my fellow soldiers.”
Again, if the co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission asked the Times not publish this story, and if by doing so a soldier on the ground in Iraq says that it will contribute to the deaths of his fellow soldiers, then this story is NOT ridiculous.
Only those who have never worked in a bank have some mystical vision of SWIFT.
Publicly announcing that banks use SWIFT is about as big of a secret as saying that cops drive police cars.
Not really a big deal.
Old Time Religion,
I hear you. I’ve noticed the same shift in my father’s political perspectives. By the way, he served in Korea also. He’s in his 80’s now, but still going strong. He is a straightline republican voter who now regrets having voted for Bush and Cheney. I think the same realization and political shift is happening everywhere, in all age groups and demographics. More and more people I talk to are turned off by the politics of hate.
Thanks also for standing up for me re: Dave above. It’s pretty rare around here for anyone to speak up against folks like Dave. I know others think he’s a hateful looney, but they choose to not say it. No balls.
It takes guts to go against a crowd and speak your mind, thanks for having the intestinal fortitude.
Lee
Disclaimer or not, the program worked. The NYT’s own article listed some of the successes.
Perhaps the terrorists didn’t think they US had access, or simply didn’t read the disclaimer. I’ve seen some rather large disclaimers in my time.
Either way, confirming on the front page of the NYT that we do indeed have access and are using it against them isn’t the way to go.
So the FATF program uses more than just SWIFT. Great. Hopefully those will still help gather information on the terrorists. The point is that the Time’s disregard for national security cost us a tool.
Lose enough tools and you can no longer do your job. If I ask you to drive nails, and then start removing tools from your toolbox (starting with your hammer), there will come a point where you will be unable to drive a nail.
Besides, if it’s such a non-story why publish it?
My sincerest hope in life is that Lee loses loved ones in a terrorist incident that could have been prevented through this or any of the other programs his kind have rendered useless. The schadenfreude would be delicious watching those he’s so sympathetic to turn on him.
Lee:
You said: “More and more people I talk to are turned off by the politics of hate.”
Are you REALLY going to tell us that the “politics of hate” is only a right-wing problem? For every single example of this “hate” you come up with on the conservative side, I could give you ten on the liberal side.
To everyone else:
I know, I know, I’m wasting valuable blogspace… Sorry.
I’m not sympathetic towards terrorists Listkeeper, quite the opposite. I think we need to be much more effective than we have been in fighting terrorism.
And this is the last time I will respond to you, since anyone who wishes that more American’s die at the hands of terrorists is not worth my time.
You don’t sympathise with them, yet you choose to do everything you can to enable them. I see.
Doug – You posted your question to me about liberals and hate without addressing Listkeeper’s comments towards me and my family, and you expect a response from me?
Here’s your response.
……………
What, you can’t see it? I’m holding my right hand in front of the computer monitor, with my middle finger extended.
Any more questions Doug?
When the next big terrorsit attack comes I really, really hope that the NYT main building and everyone in it is at ground zero…will serve them right.
Listkepper wrote:
My sincerest hope in life is that Lee loses loved ones in a terrorist incident that could have been prevented through this or any of the other programs his kind have rendered useless.
This is exactly the type of attitude which is sad and Un-American.
As someone who lost a friend in the South Tower, (My wifes ex-boss’ son from Merril Lynch) what you just said, simply in order to prove your point, is just plain obnoxious, arrogant and disgusting.
You fearful litlle person. You would have Americans die to prove your point!!!!!!!!???????
When the next big terrorsit attack comes I really, really hope that the NYT main building and everyone in it is at ground zero…will serve them right.
Wishing for the terrorists to succeed?
Hmmm. Interesting.
Based on the willingness of shitheads like yourself to cripple our ability to prevent such attacks in the future based on your pathetic partisan politics rather than the reality of such programs, I would, yes.
Based on the willingness of shitheads like yourself to cripple our ability to prevent such attacks in the future based on your pathetic partisan politics rather than the reality of such programs, I would, yes.
“I want the terrorist to SUCCEED so that my beliefs might prosper above those of the opposition.”
Interesting.
or
“I want the terrorists to SUCCEED with another attack which takes the lives of innocent Americans (perferably liberals) so that my belief system may prosper.”
It’s not that I want them to succeed, OTR…. It’s that pathetic retards like yourself, Lee, and the rest have guaranteed that outcome, and I want you to suffer for it.
Call me crazy… but, I think that response qualifies to call ListKeeper a bonifide died in the wool traitor.
Imagine that.
t’s not that I want them to succeed, OTR…. It’s that pathetic retards like yourself, Lee, and the rest have guaranteed that outcome, and I want you to suffer for it.
But, they are one and the same.
Or, are you simply incapable of seeing such a complicated reality?
sounds like the chickenhawks who cried wolf?
who got killed by this?
noone. what big claims you have with no evidence to back it up.
bush reveled this program in 2003. i call for his trial on treason charges now, well deal with the right wing media later.
It’s you who have chosen to ignore reality in favor of your politics. May you suffer greatly for what you have chosen to bring about.
>>>>It’s not that I want them to succeed, OTR…. It’s that pathetic retards like yourself, Lee, and the rest have guaranteed that outcome, and I want you to suffer for it.
How right-wing of you!
You see, you dumb turd, terrorists are not that decerning. They don’t give a shit about conservative or liberal. We all have a big fat target on our backs.
It’s because extremist losers like you who have turned everyone into an enemy that we are in such dire straights.
You idiot. Your world is falling apart and all you can do is throw hatred at your fellow citizens.
How extremist of you.
Besides, if it’s such a non-story why publish it? Thrush
Because Bush/Cheney are trying to expand the power of the executive branch without oversight. The Republicans in Congress are not doing their jobs, and the press are only people left to keep a watchful eye on them. ~60% of the country doesn’t trust this President, and for good reason.
Now I know you’re going to say “but there were checks and it was not being abused.” Maybe, but that’s only because people on the SWIFT end were uncomfortable with how much the US wanted. The Administration would have been more than happy to turn on the vacuum and suck up every transaction if they could (and apparently were immediately after 9/11). But this leads us back to the NSA warrantless surveillance, how big a vacuum are they using?
That’s the story the wingers still don’t get, probably cause they don’t care. But some of us still have an interest in checks and balances, openness in gov’t, yada yada yada, all that liberal foolishness the Founders were so adamant about. What a bunch of moonbats they were, right?
Unfortunately Listkeeper your wish against Lee and his family is just awful, moronic, stupid, and etc. I cringed just reading it. Whatever point you were trying to make is lost when you wish harm on someone’s family in some possible future terrorist attack just so you could say “I told you so.”
You’ve rendered yourself moot in this discussion. The noble thing to do now would be apologize and try to start making sense.
As much as I disagree with Lee (and for that matter newcomer OTR, sorry your voting stories don’t pass the smell test IMHO) I wouldn’t wish harm, let alone death, on his innocent family. Think about what you’re saying here.
May you suffer greatly for what you have chosen to bring about.
I suspect my dear Listkeeper that it shall be you who shall suffer for choosing to hate rather than to find a true path to the Lord.
I suspect that your desire to see others suffer for your own mistaken idealogy shall see you roast in the sight of the Lord’s mansion, seeing all it’s Glory but knowing none of it. Ever.
I suspect my angry hate filled fellow American, that your desire and lust for vengence upon those who wrought such destruction and fear upon us that day of 9/11 has been turned towards your fellow Americans in a way that is not only unpatriotic but history shall prove, cost us lives.
Rather than making any real attempt to united our nation to fight a common foe, you and those like you have spent countless energy on hating your fellow Americans.
Rather than finding any middle ground, allowing democracy to work, you have chosen to fight them with accusations of “traitor” and worse.
For that, my dear Listkeeper, and for wishing for the deaths of your fellow citizens, you shall roast in the deep fire of Lucifer’s belly.
I’m old enough to know a sinner and a fool and a traitor when I see one.
And, you are one.
Not uncommon for an agent of the Devil to cloak himself in the robes of the Lamb whilst doing the work of his Master in Darkness.
You dear Listkeeper are Legion. But, of the foolish army.
Good day to you. May the Lord Save you.
Fortunately for me, I’m not a Christian and won’t be going to any Hell.
And it’s you who are the traitor, OTR… You, who open the doors for OBL and Al Qaeda by ensuring the blindness of those who are tasked to defend you.
All because of your willful, partisan ignorance.
sean:
From the NYT article:
While at the beginning they did get a complete copy of the database, they quickly realized this was dangerous and began to limit the requests. (This was also covered in the article.)
While I’m sure the CIA would love to keep getting the entire database, the administration is trying to walk the fine line between giving our people enough information to “connect the dots” while protecting the rights of innocents.
Listkeeper – sorry, buddy, but you’re on your own with that one. Lee may throw dispicable lies and twist the truth into unrecognizable goo, but I would never wish harm on him or his loved ones.
Lee, I never agree with anything you say, but despite that, you’d be welcome in my house, as shelter from the storm.
Listkeeper, you are WAY out of bounds here.
Big Mo, I don’t want you or anyone else to defend me… My hatred of Lee and his ilk took a long time to develop and I had to see a lot lost for it to get there.
So if a fellow American believes in making as much money as he can or doesn’t like the U.S. and sells U.S. secrets or tells a lie to hurt the U.S. war effort, that we shouldn’t call him a traitor?
“You fearful litlle person. You would have Americans die to prove your point!!!!!!!!???????”
Many think that what liberals and MSM actions will succeed in doing just that to hurt Bush.
You claim to be a conservative but don’t sound like one to me. It takes more than just voting GOP or claiming so to be a conservative. However I don’t like making judgments off of one set of post. I will make that decision by watching your future post to see if you truly are a conservative or just pretending to be.
My hatred of Lee and his ilk took a long time to develop and I had to see a lot lost for it to get there.
That’s YOUR fault, not their fault.
Stand up. Be a man for God’s sake.
You’re the ones opening the gate for them, OTR.. Not I. Your ignorance and stupidity is going to cost our country. May you rot in hell for it.
We don’t have to share all the same points of view, Wayne. I have differing political views on many things and yet consider myself a conservative.
As far as the direction this thread is heading in, it’s bad. Why don’t we take it down a notch and have a discussion, instead of wishing death upon others. I think you’re better than that Listkeeper.
Oh, and the talk about Hell? This is politics, not Sunday school.
Heralder, as I recall We did not talk about Hell in Sunday school. It was singing songs like “Jesus loves the little children”.
What was this thread about again? oh yeah the NYT ending a terrorist surveillence money funneling program. needless to say, nothing will be done about this and it will be off to the next Bush undermining story by next week? if they even wait that long.
At the risk of having my comment deleted because it’s off-topic, I’d like to say something about what transpired on this thread today.
We’ve seen some excellent examples today of those individuals I call the “terrorized right”, and what horrible, horrible examples at that. Judging from Listkeeper’s earlier remarks, it is clear that his rational thought process has surrendered to the hatred in his heart.
The fact is that in the White House, on Capitol Hill, and in cities and states all over this country there are millions of terrorized Americans of all ages and faiths who hate those who attacked us on 9/11 so much, that their hate just spills over into many other areas of their lives.
They hate the Democrats.
They hate the New York Times.
They hate the gays.
They hate the illegals.
They hate the judges.
They hate CNN.
They hate the liberals.
They hate the person standing next to them in line at the grocery store just because that person has a peace sign on their t-shirt.
They hate their next-door neighbor merely because of the bumper sticker on their car.
They hate protestors who are using their first amendment rights to speak out about ways they feel this country can be better, and stronger.
Terrorists have taken away from these individuals the strengths in them that make this country great, and turned them into a pack of rabid dogs who, like the terrorists we’re fighting, know nothing but hate, hate, hate.
These are not the people we need to lead the fight on the war against terrorism. These are people who have already surrendered to terrorism.
However I don’t like making judgments off of one set of post. I will make that decision by watching your future post to see if you truly are a conservative or just pretending to be.
Wayne, I am a life long conservative. Both economically and socially.
But, I am a Christian first. It is my life. And, many people, both conservatives and liberal, often mistake my desire to be a good Christian with being a liberal. That is how it goes. Make your own conclusions.
I have found that the past ten years that as my belief in God has become more profound, and my life more complete, that my perspective, without really knowing it, has drifted away from the more recent so-called conservative ideals.
I believe in my country. I love my country. But, if I suspect that my government is doing something that I can not reconcile with my CHristian beliefs, then my allegience to that government is not a bonafide. My government serves my country and its people. And, as a conservative, I have always worked to ensure that government does not goet too big, too overpowering of the people.
I’ve also been a conservative financially. I beleive that the government should work on a fixed and balanced budget just as any successful business should. I also believe that government spending should be as minimal as possible, except in cases where it has been proven it is necessary.
Alas, the current administration has been anything but conservative. I voted for Bush for the same reasons I voted for Truman. And, I feel they were both failures.
Bush’s economic failures are important. We are sailing into massive debt. That is incredibly worrisome. My wife comes from the financial sector and she will tell you that the reality out there is shaky at best. No matter what sunshine the politicians in power blow up our legs. (And, that’s what they always do, right?)
So, I’ve seen the great Reagan values go south in a big way. Bush is no Reagan. And, those values have been sold out for something I have not seen since the late 50’s.
Americans openly calling for the death of other Americans over a difference of opinion?
My Lord. That is just heartbreaking to hear and witness. And, it is just all over the place.
As a Christian, what I see is very un-Christian.
Very hate filled. And, hate is the fuel that gives Lucifer his power. I’ve learned a handful of things in my years – that is one of them. (How to make the best pancakes in the world is the other.)
Something has happened in this country. People ahve been consumed. It’s not right. It’s hatred I’ve never seen before. Even the sixties was never this bad.
In those days, it was bad to be a conservative. I had a job where I had to wear a suit. I was proud to be a conservative. But, there was a lot of hate going around. On both sides. I would get called a “baby killer” just walking down the street to my job. And, I’d see conservatives beating up hippies in the back alleys of bars. And, I’d stand idle by and do nothing. “They deserve it. ” I’d think to myself.
Years later, I was in a bar with some friends celebrating a wedding (pre-bachelor party) and one of the guys at the party was also one of the guys who was kicking the stuffing out of that skinny hippie. I only knew him a little bit. We’d see each other around town, but I always thought of him as one of those guys in the alley that night.
Everyone called him “Sally”, cause he had a great 1966 Mustang ragtop… anyway…
So, this other guy at another table walks over at one point and looks at Sally really hard and says: “You are one of the guys who broke my ribs that night in 1967.” Of course, Sally doesn’t own up to it at all. I looked at his accusser and he was dressed in a nice suit and tie. This is in 1978, ten years later. The guy looks at Sally really hard. “I just want you to know that I spent a month in the hospital, and that because of the injuries I received that night I lost my job, and got kicked out of school for a low GPA, because I missed too many classes. When I got out of the hospital, I got a job but then I was drafted and did a tour. Caught a grenade in the leg, two shards of shrapnel later, I was back stateside.”
Sally had avoided ‘Nam by attending college and getting married and having kids. He was always really vocal about supporting the war, but like a lot of people, didn’t want to die. Sally looks around at us for some type of help, we’re all staring at our beers. I’m just staring at it all…
Sally says: “Well, you know, that was a long time ago.”
The guy just looks at Sally and says: “I just want you to know that I forgive you.” And he walks away.
Sally tried to laugh it off. But, that was the end of the party.
About five years ago, Sally was sick with cancer and he asked a mutual friend if I would come over to talk to him. He was dying. (I’m AA and a deacon in my church, so I do a lot of counseling.)
Sally (RIP) basically, without going into details confessed to me that night. How he had hated that hippie for years. How that hippie was such a highlight of his hatred and his focus of hating liberals and hippes and all of them. He was proud of it. And, when that guy said “I forgive you.” well, Sally’s world just sorta when upside down.
He wanted me to find the guy and give him a letter. I still have the letter. I’ve never read it. I haven’t been able to find the guy. But, maybe I will. I spent a lot of time at first, but he’s a phantom.
True story.
Old Time wrote:
“This is exactly the type of attitude which is sad and Un-American”.
This is something that is “CAUSED BY” and repeated over and over again by the perpetual fraud(democrat party)(liberal Media)(liberal blowhards in Hollywood).
Here is some more perpetual fraud from the bed wetters and sore losers who think themselves as Americans.
“Wishing for the terrorists to succeed”?
“It’s because extremist losers like you who have turned everyone into an enemy that we are in such dire straights”.
“60% of the country doesn’t trust this President, and for good reason.”
“That’s the story the wingers still don’t get, probably cause they don’t care. But some of us still have an interest in checks and balances, openness in gov’t” BULLSHIT! HAVE ANOTHER BLOWJOB LOSER
“Maybe, but that’s only because people on the SWIFT end were uncomfortable with how much the US wanted” WHO THE F**K ARE YOU? “MAYBE” YOU SHOULD LEARN TO PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
sean wrote:
“The Republicans in Congress are not doing their jobs”
HA HA! wishful thinking loser. The pepetual fraud that is the democrat party can’t stand the fact that Republicans are competant and doing the job that they are incapable of and have no intentions of doing period.
The corrupt and criminal democrats are have been going insane since they were exposed for what they are and thrown on their incompetant asses where they now whine like infants 24/7. STFU!
We don’t need democrats period.
“Because Bush/Cheney are trying to expand the power of the executive branch without oversight”
LIE!
REALITY IS THAT DEMOCRATS KNOW THEY ARE FAILURES AND AMERICANS SEE THEM AS SUCH. THIS IS ALL THE TRAITOROUS PISSANTS CAN COME UP WITH TO DECEIVE AMERICANS AWAY FROM THE SIMPLE FACT THAT Bush/Cheney ARE DOING THEIR JOB IN A WAY THAT SHOWS JUST HOW SCREWED UP AND PHONY THE DEMOCRATS ARE.
The pathetic call for oversight but not when there is a democrat president commiting adultery
and collecting his spoils of blowjobs on demand. Hope all you democrat POS’s have wonderful day knowing your the reason for your being in the MINORITY.
Lee,
As much as I hate to hate, I hate hate. Does hating hate make me a hater?
*squints at the screen*
What the heck did I just write?
2 points:
1. I thought the considered wisdom here was to ignore Lee who is clearly just a bomb-thrower with no redeeming value to this blog.
2. SWIFT was not well-understood or widely know. Not widely, but it was not secret, nor a secret “program.”
The “program” was our monitoring of it. Since it was a private firm run in another country, this was significant in our ongoing intelligence efforts.
The “logicians” on the left who are posting that since you could find SWIFT in the public domain, it didn’t matter that we were monitoring, are making a specious argument.
Our monitoring a poorly understood (reference the libs’ comments above) program, and doing it in another country, secretly, is the significant thing. It’s troubling to see these folks not able to exercise the most basic reasoning skills to discern the difference.
Well, from my perspective, all the hatred is leading to something very frightening to even and old coot Republican like myself. Very frightening.
And, it is contained in this simple statement above by Rob LACa:
We don’t need democrats period.
Therein lay the rub. It’s an attitude I see more and more among conservatives on the internet. (And, admit it people, it occurs to you more than you admit.)
And, it’s just un-American.
One party rule in the greatest democracy the world has ever known?
It’s laughable, except some out there, many out there, believe in it.
Are we Red China? Are we a banana republic?
As Republicans, we need to stand up for the idea of the REPUBLIC. No matter we disagree.
There are those amongst us though, I fear, who have other plans.
Big Mo wrote:
“Lee, I never agree with anything you say, but despite that, you’d be welcome in my house, as shelter from the storm.
Listkeeper, you are WAY out of bounds here”
I respect your opinion Mo , But I got Listkeepers back on this one without hesitation.
Your opinion might differ if you have walked in my shoes for I have done the above mentioned only to be have a gun held to my head and robbed. Given shelter to people on the street , fresh out of prison after doing years. I know about blind hatred and have experienced it first hand. I see the hatred and complete stupidity from all sore losers on the left.
Democrats are criminals , frauds , liars and yes they are the worse POS human being by their own actions , lact there of and most convincingly by their own stupidity in being incapable of stutting their whiny and lying traps. Democrats can’t help it , they are emotional based incompetant freaks who must make themselves feel good by criticizing those that are better than them or those that get “ELECTED” INSTEAD OF THEM.
I got no problem with listkeepers comments because democrats mostly being a bunch of pussies would love to see harm come to the Republican Leadership but are too cowardly to admit it, however there are certifiably insane democrats , lots of them that would scream it from the highest mountain.
Ah see, Mitchell, you are making stuff up. In intel circles, and generally, it is well understood not only that the US has been monitoring financial data, but it is also known that the terrorists know we are monitoring financial data.
Again, the real meat and money and manpower in inveestingating the financial dealings of terrorists has NOT been in regard to using services such as SWIFT but rather in actually getting a foothold into the Hawala systems used by the terrorits.
So, your analysis is simply not really informed.
You write:
Our monitoring a poorly understood (reference the libs’ comments above) program, and doing it in another country, secretly, is the significant thing.
If you go to Jane’s, or Stratfor, or THe CounterTerrorisim Blog, (all conservative and quite respected sources) you’ll see a reacurring point made: They all agree it’s ABSURD to think that the terrorists we are after- who are managers of well run, sophisticated networks with a lot of money – are NOT aware that we are monitoring traditional lines of financial data nets.
They aren’t dumb.
That is why this entire issue with the NY Times is a RED HERRING.
It’s doesn’t take a liberal to see that. But, it does take a conservative who doesn’t listen to the nonsense apparently.
We don’t need democrats period.
Hey folks, how does it feel to know that a man who advocates totalitarian rule by the Republicans AND advocates the killing of the opposition in order to achieve that rule is out there within our ranks?
Old Time Religion
I appreciate your views. Maybe I was reading too much into your comments but it sounded like you had some hate in your heart toward Bush. Hate can be in passive forms as will. You did more attacking of Bush as a person than you were attacking his policies.
I like Reagan but he ran up deficit worst than Bush has (either in percentage increase or as percent of GDP). Some will argue Reagan did it to get us out of a recession and to win the Cold War. Similar comments could be said about Bush. Clinton fought hard against the budget that the GOP gave him but relented in the end. Also his supposedly great accomplishment was for budget forecasting and not accrual saving. It the same Hollywood philosophy ” perception is everything, reality is nothing”. OP has gotten spend happy but has been improving on it. The Dems have champion a great deal more spending than GOP and have in fact force due to the GOP not having a super majority in the Senate far more spending then Bush had in his budgets.
I have read many of Lee’s post and he accuses many of being hateful but Lee has shown he has plenty of hate as well. What’s the old saying, clean up your own back yard before you complain about mine.
Old Time. You stated above that you were, or had been a Republican. I seriously doubt that.
You are telling us that some websites, and you don’t actually name any current intelligence people, think the program is bogus and not worthwhile.
Ok, that’s fine. But I’ll take it from sources who actually know–the 9/11 commission, the Treasury Secretary, ex-FBI agents on record having worked the program or programs like it,
the President, Negroponte, Dems. and Repubs. on the committees of Congress who were briefed.
Your argument also misses the mark re the terrorists. How do you know that all terrorists already know the program? That’s something you can’t possibly know. Several intelligence officials have indicated that we’ve caught terrorists with this very program.
Thanks, Old Time, I think I’ll stick with the adults, and those who actually know, in this one.
That is absolutely correct OTR and the more you write the more you sound , well like a fraud as noted by others. I make that comment after having been voting straight democrat for nearly 20 yrs. I woke from my political coma just in time to proudly vote Republican for the first time Nov. 2 2004. It’s funny that I have never had person ask me to vote Republican , ever. All that can be heard today are desparate lies being told by democrats , BEGGING FOR YOUR VOTE , EVEN IN TEARS.
WE ALREADY HAVE TERRORIST’S WHO WANT TO KILL AMERICANS. Democrats being democrats believe they can do it faster , better and smarter than the terrorist’s. Zell Miller said it best about his democrat party and he is the last and only democrat leader worthy of respect.
Wayne, I don’t hate Bush at all. I don’t know the man. That’s another thing. Why is everyone so darn sensitive about people hating Bush? People hate Clinton and y’all don’t get uptight about it?
I did say that I think he is a failure. But, I don’t hate him for that. You obviously reacted to that. We have to stop being so overreactive about criticism of the President. I can remember a time when Presidents took criticism like grown men and listened to it and used it or rejected it.
Sometimes, good ideas come of criticism. It’s called being an adult and a professional.
I agree with your points on Reagan, but some of that was due to the Dem Congress too!
But, I’ve watched the GOP run the Congress for over a decade with no better results.
I’m fast coming to the opinion that both Dems and Repubs are incapable of doing what needs to be done fiscally, legislativetly, and in the war on terror.
Hate is the dark road. Simple. Ever seen Star Wars? It’s popular because it’s true.
I had a friend tell me I sound like a liberal. And, I told him: “That ain’t hate. That’s Jesus pal.”
Saying We dont need democrats period is not advocating Totalarian Rule by repubs or the death of democrats? You are leaping to conclusions OTR?
Your right Rob in LA, Zell Miller is a great American and unfortunately the last of a dying breed of democrat..
Listkeeper: “My sincerest hope in life is that Lee loses loved ones in a terrorist incident that could have been prevented through this or any of the other programs his kind have rendered useless. The schadenfreude would be delicious watching those he’s so sympathetic to turn on him.”
While I don’t see how anyone could possibly love Lee, wishing for the death of his family members and/or friends, who for all you know may be good folks and may disagree with Lee as much as you do (and whether they do or not makes no difference), does no possible good and is simply wrong.
And I’d bet that if it really happened, you wouldn’t be as happy about it as you indicated in your writing. At least I hope not.
In all of Lee’s inane, blitheringly stupid comments that I’ve ever read, and as far as I know, he’s never wished death on the family of any commenter. That is certainly the only redeeming trait he has shown, but it is something.
From my perspective, you’ve given Lee the moral highground in the discussion between the two of you.